Do not include in the letter about plan A and plan B. Understand, your wife will be reading the letter. She does not need to know the stratagy. You may want to explain that as long as she is going to continue in the A that you will not want to have any contact with her and explain your reasons but do not relate them to marriagebuilders. If you relate it to marriagebuilders, they will think you have joined some cult. They will understand the logical reasoning.

How ya doin'?

Hey Cerri. I'm gonng ok, really tired...emotionally and physically. I'm just struggling in plan B here. I'm finding that I just don't have the will to end ALL contact with her. As you know, I've been breaking the rules as it involves the kids. Usually it is just short, to the point, an exchange only about the kids and what is going on with them at the moment. However, I find that the both of us find a few minutes to let the conversation drift to us and what each other have been up to. Saturday morning she came to pick up the kids. It was pouring out rain at our house and our son had some stuff he wanted to show her, so she stuck around for awhile longer than usual. We found our selves standing in the kitchen all alone. I asked her if she was sure that this is still what she wanted to do (end the M). Tears came to her eyes, she started to nod yes, then managed to ask why I was asking. I told her that I'm doing fine, adjusting ok, but I think this sucks. I know know we could make a great couple again. I want to give her the sun, moon, and stars and the door is always open...no shame in comming back... I gave her a hug ans she started to sob a little. She gathered her composure and stated that she needed to go. She gathered the kids and left.

I don't know how to handle this. I just ache over her. Deep down in my soul I just ache. I'm not angry at her, I'm not bitter, I'm not afraid of life without her, I'm not depressed about her or the A. But my heart just aches. It is sort of like a dull, all day long headache. You know the kind, you are still functional but it affects you all day long. Nothing you can do will lessen the pain. Only this has lasted for two weeks now. I just miss her so much. I miss just laying next to her at night listening to her breathing. I miss the smell of her hair. I miss the way she scruches up her nose when she has to itch it. I miss the way she goes through her routine when she makes coffee in the morning. All things I have taken for granted, but now life seems sort of empty without them.

Anyway, I'm having second thoughts about sending the in-laws any letter or info. I don't think there is much I can do to get them on my side right now, and I have the feeling that I'll only look desperate if I tried. Did you read the letter? What did you think?

Is it your anniversary today? Happy anniversary!!! Mine is no 11/11, don't quite know how I'm going to handle that yet.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

See here's the thing. Plan B is to protect you. And as long as you are seeing her at all, even a little bit, you are not protected. You suffer this gut wrenching pain every time you see her come and then leave again.

At this point, one of the biggest dangers to your marriage is you.... because the day will come when you'll decide she's not worth the effort and the exhaustion and the pain and you'll just want to end it. And then, I'll be sitting here pounding away at my keyboard begging you to pleeeeeeeze not throw in the towel.

The other thing about contact in PlB is that it's not need meeting and cooperative, so you aren't really giving the best impression of you. And you are letting her know that your boundaries aren't real. If you don't respect the fact that this hurts too much for you to deal with why would she?

Isn't there some way that you can exchange kids without having to see each other?

I saw that you had a letter posted but I didn't get a chance to read it. I will do that later today.... remind me if I don't get to it. I'm trying to do some long needed work on some projects related to my site. (Which is of course, why I'm hanging around here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Yep, it's our anniversary. Never thought we'd make it.... heck, Dr. H never thought we'd make it... but here we are. One day at a time making choices that move us toward a successful marriage (most of the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) And doing very well.

Infidelity is horrific, but you can get through this. Stay strong, and don't rely on your instincts, they're faulty.

C

Well, thats just it. It isn't gut wrenching pain when she comes and goes. I feel like I've detached enough to not let that bother me. I don't sit and dwell on her or our M. I'm not really down in the dumps about this right now. I am getting on with life, a little. I'm sort finding a little comfort in having time to myself. But, I just have this persistant, dull heartache. All day, everyday...it just doesn't let up.

Mmmmm..... yes. But the dull ache will do just as much to encourage you to pull away.

Eventually your Taker will rebel and say enough is enough, this is too icky, and I deserve a life too... and then you'll be done.

I've been here a long time, and I do this all day every day (except weekends when I don't want to hear details of anyone's life!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) and I see it happen so many times.

You do so much and you hang in there and the WS just blithely does their thing, and then one day you are done. And that is one of the worst tragedies there is.

C

I can appreciate what you are saying. I know it isn't good for me to be talking to her or seeing her. I just don't seem to have the will power to NEVER talk to her. It just seems that she wants to come back and it seems like she misses "us". But something is holding her back. Like she needs a "sign" or like she is too afraid of being hurt or neglected again to put herself in the position where she is vaulnerable to it. Maybe I'm wrong, but how do I make her feel safe and welcome if I naver see or talk to her?

You make her feel safe and welcome when (and only when) she is willing to end the A and make the necessary adjustments to restoring your marriage. In the meantime, making her feel safe and welcome translates into enabling the affair to continue.

See right now, life is not all that rosy for her either. She's out of her home, living in less than private conditions and having a relationship with a man who is not the father of her children. I can guarantee that those things are painful and sad and heartbreaking for her to deal with. Every WS I have ever spoken to tells me the same thing.... they all have moments when they lie awake wondering what on earth they have done to their lives and wishing they could go back in time and make a different choice.

But when you ease that pain for a few minutes by being there, you give her the strength to go back to what it is she's doing. If you let her go, take care of you, and detach, the likelihood that the ickiness of it all will hit her can happen sooner. Right now, you are serving as the buffer that lets her hold that pain at bay.

And, your own pain increases and your LBnk balance falls. There is no way out of this without pain, I wish I could make it different, but it's the nature of this terrible thing we do to each other.

C

Ok, so back to no contact then is what your saying...?!?!? I talk to her folks whenever possible in regards to plans with the kids, don't let her linger around at our house while I'm there, don't ask or answer any questions about us or how I'm (she's) doing...??? Go about my life and do things that make me happy and be a great dad to the boys...this is the vibe I'm gettting from you...right?

Alright, I think I can do that. I'll give it my best. Am I supposed to POJA decisions about the house (decorating, paint, floor coverings, ect...) and finances (investments, refinanceing home) with her in plan B? I've asked her on two seperate occasions what she thought about things I was planning to do (I painted my bedroom and put a wood floor in), both times she simply asked me why she should care what I do with the house. The first time she was REALLY mad at me, the second time was a little more civilized. I know that these would be things she would want a considerable say in under normal marital conditions. We have some pretty major financial decisions to be made fairly soon here as well(before the end of the year anyway), and I am wondering how to handle those. Do I act unilaterally? Do I try to get her involved in making the decisions? I don't feel like I can trust her judgement right now. Whats your opinion on stuff like this?

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

Ok, so back to no contact then is what your saying...?!?!?

Uh huh.... that would pretty much sum it up.

I talk to her folks whenever possible in regards to plans with the kids, don't let her linger around at our house while I'm there, don't ask or answer any questions about us or how I'm (she's) doing...??? Go about my life and do things that make me happy and be a great dad to the boys...this is the vibe I'm gettting from you...right?

Very good young grasshopper.... now you get the idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Alright, I think I can do that. I'll give it my best.

Think ahead to the times and situations that will give you trouble and then plan them accordingly so you don't have contact.

Am I supposed to POJA decisions about the house (decorating, paint, floor coverings, ect...) and finances (investments, refinanceing home) with her in plan B?

Nope. There's no way you can effectively negotiate while she is with him, and the reaction that you'll get will just increase how painful this is for you.

OTOH, don't make such sweeping changes that they are difficult to undo. Paint is one thing, turning the garage into a party room with monster speakers and disco lights is quite another.

We have some pretty major financial decisions to be made fairly soon here as well(before the end of the year anyway), and I am wondering how to handle those. Do I act unilaterally? Do I try to get her involved in making the decisions? I don't feel like I can trust her judgement right now. Whats your opinion on stuff like this?

What kind of major financial decisions?

C

ok, i've been lurking here trying to learn about my own situation, and I just have to but in. You seem like the kindness man in the world, you're letters were awesome (made me cry), and I have no idea how this could happen to you, and I would love this to work out for you, so here is my advice:
If there's anything I understand about this is that you can't do a modified Plan B. Two big points of Plan B are supposed to be to stop meeting EA while leaving memories of Plan A and to protect your love for her. All your work from Plan A will be waisted, because instead of leaving her with a warm, loving memory and met emotional needs to yearn for, you are replacing it with your actions in Plan B, which by nature, are not meeting EN and a bit cold and distant.
I am no expert, but In my opinion, you're just making it somewhat easier to leave you by having contact. She can take one cold moment and the pain that brings and focus on that, rationalizing and giving her cause to try something new. The more you do this, the more of a distant memory Plan A becomes, the more clear the cold shoulder memories will be. -brainstorm.... if for some reason seeing her was just physically impossible, what would you do?? Email weeklly arrangement about kids on sundays... if something else is written, ignore it. Hire someone if you have to during trade off days, maybe someone that can do a couple of hours of cleaning while staying with the kids when she comes to pick them up. A neighbor..(I know, I know, not on your side), any other family members... Even if you could use someone in another state to call her parents house when your coming over. I think you are soooo close, if only you could really make her miss you!!!

And as my last intrustion..... I think you should think about all that working on your house, maybe rather consulting a real estate agent??? Either way the coin falls, do you really want to be living there??? Or will she? I think the MB advice is to move out of state if possible, certaintly not 2 doors down.
Be strong... You have a better marriage to look forward to. I feel for you and wish you and your boys the best.

My garage already is my party room. Well, actually it's the male crisis center. I love my garage, so far the best part of home ownership...IMHO!!!

As for the financial decisions, most of them are fairly minor and could probably wait. For one, we had planned on refinancing the house after we have been there a year...late November. This was something we had enthusiastically agreed on months ago. Along the same lines as that, we were going to begin finishing the basement (a much needed expansion of habitable space!!!). We have some minor investment decision that need to be made prior to the end of the year, but that is usually under my direction anyway. Also, I NEED to trade my truck in. It's just too small to put two carseats in and have anyone be comfortable. Also, I am a little leary on how safe it actually is to do so. Anyway, these are decisions that, in the past, I would have just handled on my own. She would have been informed along the way as to what was going on, but she would have had little say in the matter. I can see now that this attitude was a major contributor to the decay of our marriage...one of many on my part <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Anyhow, it doesn't appear to be a constructive effort to claim to have changed in a perminate way, then resort back to the very behavior that created her discomfort in the first place.

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>Anyhow, it doesn't appear to be a constructive effort to claim to have changed in a perminate way, then resort back to the very behavior that created her discomfort in the first place.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me chime in from a different perspective. Let's say you wanted to ease her way out of the marriage, make it as easy as possible to seque from your family into a relationship with the OM.

Here is what you would do:

1. Wean her gently off contact and family life by being friendly, chatty and supportive during limited contact.

2. Let her stay in foggy denial by falsely acting as if you are still making decisions as a married couple. Ex: "Honey, do you think we should get the Taurus or the Camry?"

3. Assure her by your actions and words that you are not moving on and developing strength on your own, so surely you will still be there as a fallback if her experiment continues.

4. Appear confrontational, emotional, obsessed and distressed during all contact with her family members to underline her claims that you are nuts.

5. Make yourself as unattractive as possible by appearing weak and needy.

6. Make most encounters uncomfortable by raising relationship talks.

7. Make yourself ever present through regular phone conversations and drop by meetings so absence does not make her heart grow fonder.

I could go on, but you get the drift. Sorry if that is harsh.

Nope, no apology necessary. Again, Mike hits me upside the head with the proverbial cyber 2x4 and makes me see a little clearer. Thanks Mike... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Ok, now I see how this is enabling. It will stop, right here and now. No more being friendly towards her. Strong, decisive, confident...these are the faces I'm showing the world from here on out, at least her world.

Don't Understand:
Thanks for your reply and kind words. You are more than welcome to add your 2 cents worth whenever you want. I can use all the help I can get my hands on right now. As for the house, yeah I'd LOVE to pick up and move right now. However, I've been informed that right now would not be a good time to do so, for a couple of reasons. First, our mortgage is not quite a year old, if I sell the house the mortgage will be paid off in full. There is a clause in my (and most from what I understand) that says if the loan is paid off prior to 24 months, it results in a 5% (I think) penalty. In short, it would cost me about $9000 to sell early. That is just too much equity to give away. Also, I met with an attorny regarding my rights and custody of my kids (if she actually decides to go for D) and he advised me that as long as the possibilty of a custody battle exists, I need to be the pillar of stability. For one it is the best thing for the kids, for two the court views packing up the kids and moving as instability. When this whole thing is over (either we are in recovery or D) I will most deffinatly be moving. For now, and I would say that it will be at least a year either way, I'm planning to stay. So, I'm doing things to make the place more comfortable and to increase equity for when we do put the place on the market. Now, if she came to me today and said she wanted to come back, I might just say: "...to hell with the 9 grand, we're moving!!!" But for now, I need to play my cards better.

Yep and yep. Funny Mike, nicely done.

But RJ, make sure you're not showing her cold and moving on. Show her nothing. No contact. Take care of you. Put the M and A on the back burner and put some sweat equity into the basement remodel. (And if ya have extra time feel free to call my hubby and come over and help with ours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

The message is : "This is too painful for me to deal with and I'm not going to have any part of a threesome."

C

By sweat equity, do you mean no home loans? Or are you just refering to keeping myself busy? I'd need to at least take out a loan to buy materials for the basement. But I don't need to POJA the basement layout huh, ok. Also, I can get whatever vehicle I want...cool. I can handle that. I still feel akward with that, it feels like WAY to much independant behavior. Are you guys sure that wouldn't be an LB?

No, Cerri, I won't be cold to her. Just not her buddy. I've been trying very hard to remain polite to her. It has been tough at times, you know, not to just throw a lamp thru the livingroom picture window. But I have remained polite to her every step of the way.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>But I don't need to POJA the basement layout huh, ok. Also, I can get whatever vehicle I want...cool. I can handle that. I still feel akward with that, it feels like WAY to much independant behavior. Are you guys sure that wouldn't be an LB?</strong>

<whap> Listen up. Plan B. No contact. No ENs met. No contact. No LBs. No contact.

WMWB,

I can see you are getting your dosage of tough love today. LOL Mike, I loved your how to fail list! Haven't anything useful to add....but wanted you to know I'm keeping up and checking in on you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know you don't feel fine....but your are doing a good job on hanging in there. When do you talk to Jenn again?

By sweat equity, do you mean no home loans? Or are you just refering to keeping myself busy?

Loans only as needed AND keeping yourself busy.

I'd need to at least take out a loan to buy materials for the basement. But I don't need to POJA the basement layout huh, ok.

Mmmmm.... basement layout is one of those things that's hard to undo... ranks up there with the party room in the garage. Have you talked about it in the past? Do you have some idea of what she would like? Women and their homes..... just not a good place to start making difficult to reverse decisions.

Also, I can get whatever vehicle I want...cool.

You can get whatever vehicle you want as long as you are being financially responsible within the guidelines that operated in your marriage pre-A.
And that goes for the kind of vehicle too, but this is more easily reversible than a basement layout.

I still feel akward with that, it feels like WAY to much independant behavior. Are you guys sure that wouldn't be an LB?

It might be. But there is no POJA in PLB. POJA requires exploration and negotiation.... just a tad bit difficult to do with no contact. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So that being the case, move slowly. Do what you need to do and think carefully about how you believe she would like things to be if things were different. In other words, take her feelings into account as best you can while she is not communicating them to you.

No, Cerri, I won't be cold to her. Just not her buddy. I've been trying very hard to remain polite to her.

Repeat after me: I will have no contact with my wife.

That pretty much rules out either coldness or politeness. And then you don't have to worry about it at all, which is the idea.

It has been tough at times, you know, not to just throw a lamp thru the livingroom picture window. But I have remained polite to her every step of the way.

And that's why you can't do PLA long term. Eventually you WILL toss the lamp through the window, and it's doubtful doing so will help her to see the light. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Ok, I'm taking my bruised and battered self to bed now (limp, limp, limp...up the stairs).

Thanks for setting me straight. Mike, keep the 2 by handy...you may need it tomorrow. She called today before I got home. I didn't return the call, wanted to...but didn't.

Star, I'm supposed to talk to Jenn again in about a week or so. She said 3 weeks from the last time I talked to her, which was a week and a half ago.