WMWB:

It's not often that I go against the grain with Mike and TMCM, but this time I see things quite a bit differently...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...We had an eventful morning. She spent the night with the OM, I'm sure that if it wasn't a PA it is now. I asked per why she was F*cking around on her marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all---why the HECK are you having any kind of a morning with your wife??? You're in Plan B. Plan B is NO CONTACT. None. Nada. Zip. If you're in contact with her, then you must really be in Plan A. And the behavior you exhibited above is a lousy Plan A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She replied that there is no marriage anymore. This sucks, no remorse from her, no consideration, nothing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is completely from "How to Act Like A Wayward Spouse: Manual 101" Word for word. While she's having the affair, you will not expect her to acknowledge the affair. You should not expect remorse or consideration. Duh. What were you expecting differently. Even when (if) the affair ends, you still should not expect these feelings of remorse. It's (often) only when you're well into recovery that you will see profound expressions of guilt and remorse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She just keeps throwing this thing in my face, again and again. It's kind of a long story, but she slapped me this morning and I called the cops on her, more for the report than to press charges.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're having contact with your wife, so you must be in Plan A. How does calling the cops relate to Plan A behavior? Does this leave your wife with a good impression about how wonderful and caring you really are---and when the affair finally ends, she'll be able to fondly remember how you stuck up for her even when she was doing this horrible stuff? I don't think so...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have this feeling that we are headed to an ugly custody battle in the near future.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now we have something that we can completely agree on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it was petty and stupid for me to call the cops, but I'm just not going to be bullied around by her anymore. I've been walking on egg shells for abour 5 years now. I'm tired of it. If she is going to be a hot head and get violent, she can deal with the legal implecations of it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your taker on a "Taker's Rage". Striking back. Justice is good. Let her stew in a sauce of her own making... My question to you would be "how threatened" you really felt. Was it necessary to call the cops? My wife has hit me a couple times over our years together (out of anger and frustration)---my response was more to surpress laughter than to call the police.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It all seems so hopeless right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WMWB. If you're true to your name, you should feel down---you're doing a great job of sabotaging any chance your marriage has to make it through this. On the other hand, you're setting yourself up very well to gain physical custody of your children (which is a great---but completely detrimental to your marriage). If you just want ot get custody of the kids and are willing to give up the marriage for good---keep up the legal pressure (TRO, battery charges, provoke her into hitting you every chance you get).

If you want you marriage, on the other hand, you need to be in a real Plan B and get control of the way you react to your wife. Have you had a session with Jenn recently? I strongly urge you to schedule one soon---you need to keep your temper in control and put a real plan B into place, complete with a mechanism to transfer the children back and forth WITHOUT contact between the two of you.

The only contact we are having is the transfer of the kids. No other conversations. I just told her Friday that I didn't want her hanginng around the house while I was gone. This morning she stopped by and started to make comments while I was getting the kids ready. We are in plan B except for kids tranfers. I can see that we need to figure something else out on that front as well.

I want my wife back more than I could ever put into words. And, i feel terrible for all that has gone down today, and in the past. I love her, but this is sooo painful to watch...and be on the receiving end of. I just don't think it is in the best interest of the kids for her to have custody. That has nothing to do with us reconliling or not. She is acting VERY irresponsibly and irratic right now. Not very stable or healthy for the kids. I feel like they are my number one priority thru this whole thing. If it means putting a damper on our recovery, I have to protect the kids. It sucks that it has come to that, but in some respects it has.

I love her, but this is getting rediculous. She acts like a raging lunatic when she isn't getting her way and none of her intimidation tactis are working. It doesn't matter if the kids are around to see it or not. I know letting this escalate this morning over a can of pop was dumb. But it was about more than the pop, it was about the boundaries. I can also see that it was my taker that made me do it. Bad move on my part to let the taker have that much of a say in my actions right now. I just didn't see any other way of handling it. She can't just go around hitting me when she gets pissed.

By the way, I have an appointment with Jenn tomorrow night.

i agree with K. Two of the main points of plan B are to protect whatever love you have left for your spouse and also to prevent incidents like the above from happening. Neither of those is happening with what you're doing. While I think you mean well by permitting continued contact, it most definitely will sabotage your ultimate goal, as you're finding out. IMO, you need to enforce your boudaries by whatever means necessary. There are steps you can take to make that happen; she can only violate them if you allow her to. Of course you're going to anger her by enforcing them, but I believe the only alternative is certain failure.

I agree with K and theuglytruth. You are still having far too much contact with her considering the No Contact letter. She wants a reaction out of you which you give her everytime. Now's the time to stop talking, reacting, etc. If you follow the 180 list under TMCM's signature, you will find these helpful:

6. Do not ask for help from family members.
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

It's time to take the focus off of what she is/isn't doing. It's time to put it on you. If you have to see her, show her you've moved on. Pretend she's your daytime babysitter if you must. Work on being the best you you can be. Then when your W sees you, flaunt it even just a little. Otherwise, try to ignore her. Don't let her provoke you. She's caking eating--2 homes that she can come and go as she pleases, treat you like dirt in front of your children, etc. It sounds like she's incredibly angry and resentful towards you. And she's going to make you pay. She's acting very vindictive and thinks nothing of lashing out. The best thing you can do is not be around to dump on or bully you. BE SCARCE. If you can arrange something where you don't have to be there for the "kid exchange", then don't. Maybe one of your childrens' friends' parents can help with this. Give it some thought.

Also read over your Plan B letter you sent to her and stick to it. If you don't follow it, how do you expect her to? Think about what your goals are. Are your actions hindering or helping that happen? Try to look more at your own behaviour rather than hers. Change comes from within. If you change you then she can't help but change too.

Ok, how do I enforce the boundaries then? This isn't her house anymore, I asked her in while I got the kids ready. She's the one that "made herself at home" and raided the fridge. I tried to enforce that boundry, she got mad and violent. I guess we NEED to find a third party to exchange the kids. And, if not, she doesn't come into the house anymore. She can wait in the garage. I just don't understand how to enforce the boundries without it being an LB. She will get mad, but how do I know if it is the type of mad that is damaging?

SAB-
That is some great advice, thanks. I'm going to print that list out and highlight the most pertinant items on the list. I think I'm going to (as childish as this may sound) write myself a not reassuring myself that this isn't my wife and her actions are not personal. To hang in there and never give up. I think I'll carry these with me everywhere I go, so I can pull them out when I need encouragement.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give her folks the letter today, then that is it. No contact with them either. They are just to hostile and not at all objective.

Mmmm... yes.... no one said that PlB was easy. Or convenient. But dude...you're shooting yourself in the foot here, as K pointed out so descriptively.

Do you want to save your marriage or do you want to let your instincts lead you all over the place? You can't have both.

You need an intermediary for exchanging kids. (See not easy or convenient, above.) And you need to get your outbursts under control.

AND you need to be talking with your coach more often than every three weeks.... particularly if you don't have email support as well. There is no way I'd schedule you at those intervals, and I do email support. You're too volatile right now.

PlB is about YOU. Create a buffer zone, get out of the immediate path of the affair, get on with your life and let her wallow in the mess she's made.

C

The problem with domestic violence is that it does not go away and the next time she might resort to deadlier means (beleive me I have lived through this). I'm sorry but no marriage is worth losing your life for because of a dangerous spouse.

Ok, look TMCM, she isn't that dangerous. She gets violent only after her other tactics fail and she is frusterated. It's usually a triggered response, not something premeditated. I'm not worried about my safety here.

Cerri, ok say I find a 3rd party for exchanging the boys. How do I go about enforcing the boundries? How do I get out of the path of the A if it is happening right under my nose...2 doors down. I have to pass the guys house every time I leave. If her car is there, it's like a dagger thru my heart, ya know? Anyway, even if that didn't bother me, how do I enforce the other boundries? She thinks this is a joke, usually the only way she comlies is after I get stern with her and really let her know that she needs to go, or that when she calls on the phone it is only about the kids. She wants to come and go as she pleases. We have an agreement about the kids, they sleep at home and we alternate weekends. W decided yesterday that she wanted the kids tonight. Agreement or not, she said that I don't get to have things my way and I've been controlling her our whole M and she wasn't going to let me do that anymore. What do i do about that? Do I get a legal separation? How can I enforce the boundry with the kids? I want whats best for them, I think sleeping at home is stable and healthy for them. At one time she agreed, but I think her guilt and anger towards me are making her pull this type of stunt. How should I handle this?

I tried to enforce that boundry, she got mad and violent. I guess we NEED to find a third party to exchange the kids. And, if not, she doesn't come into the house anymore. She can wait in the garage.

I know this is normally reserved for husbands but do you have a dog house she could stay in? Though I like the garage idea. Now you're talking.

Ok, look TMCM, she isn't that dangerous. She gets violent only after her other tactics fail and she is frusterated. It's usually a triggered response, not something premeditated. I'm not worried about my safety here.

I don't like her tendency for violent behaviour. Like TMCM, don't underestimate her or try to rationalize her behaviour. It's wrong. Many women have said same thing about their spouses and have wound up seriously injured or worse. What psychological effect is this behaviour having on your children. They never forget things like this. Just keep a silent watch and be wary. In the meantime, stay out of her way as much as possible. If you have to, get that RO. If she won't respect your boundaries, she will have to respect the court's. If you're not around, maybe she'll start taking out her anger and frustation out on the OM. You are getting through to her. While else would she react so strongly? Keep up the pressure but from a safe distance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong> Don't hang up the phone before you hear me out.

Maybe you should move out.

Or at least, put it to her that only one of you can have access to the house. If she wants it to be her, fine, you will get an apartment and make other arrangements. Hopefully she can keep up the household mortgage and living expenses (of course she can't). If she can't do that, then you should put the house up for sale and split the proceeds.

That may not be want you want to hear, but let's get realistic here. What are the scenarios here? The OM lives 2 doors away. If you don't reconcile, I assume you will have to sell it to give her her share of the asset. If you do reconcile -- who wants to live 2 doors from the OM?

Perhaps faced with that reality she will accept the boundary setting and stay out of the house. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alright, that was the weirdest thing I ever saw. (And if you know me well, you know that I have weird things happen to my technology all too often) I was writing a reply, and my screen went completely black and there was nothing happening with my computer. Very odd.

Anyway, back to what I was trying to say. This scenario that Mike presented is very good. It sets boundaries, and gives options. Why not consider it?

Obviously what you are doing now isn't working. And as you say, you need to drive by the guy's house every day.... not conducive to removing yourself from the situation.

I'm sure I had something else to say, but my mind seems to have done the same as my computer and is a complete blank. Good grief.

C

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by K:
<strong>It's not often that I go against the grain with Mike and TMCM, but this time I see things quite a bit differently...</strong>

Well, than I withdraw my advice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess I have been pondering on her breaking in, and refusing to stay out of the house during the day when he's at work, and the whole picture. Every contact between them seems very destructive. He won't leave the house. She is in the neighborhood every day.

<sigh> Like I said earlier, I wish the Harleys would write a column about Plan B when there are kids and a co-owned house, because that situation always seems to raise a lot of tactical confusion. The result is this Plan A/B no man's land, and it seems like the worst of both worlds.

I think if it was me, I'd try to explain the boundary no contact thing one more time, and explain that I don't want to go to the TRO but she is leaving me no choice. Try to do it in a loving fashion, if that is possible...

Yes sleeping at home is better for your kids. But let's not miss the forest for the trees. The very best thing for your kids is that their parents work this out and stay together. And right now that burden falls solely on you. If they sleep elsewhere or if your house is sold, that would be sad for them. But it will not cripple their future success and happiness in any way close to what a divorce will do. I wish you could see as clearly how true this is, if you did you would go to the ends of the earth and become fearless in your quest to save your marriage.

Here are some of my links. Read them. They are sobering.

http://divorcereform.org/all.html
http://www.americanvalues.org/html/bk-the_unexpected_legacy_of_di.html

C

WMWB:

Read what cerri says again. The deal is that if you are in Plan A with the contact---you know to watch your mouth, and not lovebust all over the place. Your problem is that you're inbetween plan A and B---you're not really in the no contact situation AND when you do have contact, you feel free to "enforce your boundaries" with some unproductive behaivors.

You ask:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, ok say I find a 3rd party for exchanging the boys. How do I go about enforcing the boundries? How do I get out of the path of the A if it is happening right under my nose...2 doors down. I have to pass the guys house every time I leave. If her car is there, it's like a dagger thru my heart, ya know? Anyway, even if that didn't bother me, how do I enforce the other boundries? She thinks this is a joke, usually the only way she comlies is after I get stern with her and really let her know that she needs to go, or that when she calls on the phone it is only about the kids. She wants to come and go as she pleases. We have an agreement about the kids, they sleep at home and we alternate weekends. W decided yesterday that she wanted the kids tonight. Agreement or not, she said that I don't get to have things my way and I've been controlling her our whole M and she wasn't going to let me do that anymore. What do i do about that? Do I get a legal separation? How can I enforce the boundry with the kids? I want whats best for them, I think sleeping at home is stable and healthy for them. At one time she agreed, but I think her guilt and anger towards me are making her pull this type of stunt. How should I handle this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, your eliminated your very best option for the most effective Plan B---which would be for you to leave the house and leave your children with your wife. That's highly effective for a number of good reasons---but it also carries the largest risk should you proceed to divorce court (you're currently minimizing your divorce risk, but at the cost of your Plan B). There isn't a magic "win-win" scenario for you to do both here. You need to compromise.

I would suggest you want your wife to see Mr. [censored], just as often as she can. The affair has been smoldering---you want it to blaze, so it can quickly burn out. You need to have the two of them together as much as possible, so that their fantasy land can become reality---I'm guessing that it's not quite what they pictured.

She shouldn't be in your house. Period. She can take the kids and let them sleep somewhere else. It's not easy on your kids. Neither is divorce. You need to set up a schedule and stick to it.

We all want your marriage to succeed, WMWB---but I'm not seeing the consistent behavior that I would want to see from you, if I were your coach. Neither is cerri. Start working more frequently with Jenn, or (and?) pick up some additional help from cerri if you need it.

wmwb -

I know you want to stay in the house to keep some sense of normalcy for your kids, but normalcy may not be possible. It certainly doesn't do your kids any good to see things like what happened this morning. And seeing her car at OM's house is surely going to hit you hard every time; your kids need at least one parent thinking clearly. On the other hand if you do put it for sale, it will probably require some more contact with her which isn't good. But I do think that denying her access to it, either by this method or some other, is definitely a key to success. It will put stress on her and that will stress the relationship with OM; just one more peice of reality to break the fantasy. Of course, she'll be mad, but that should be VERY far down in your list of concerns right now. Short of that, is there any way you can do the kid transfer at her parents'? As soon as she or they answer the door, just say goodbye to the kids and not a word to her and leave. Then there is NO reason for her to be at the house.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
Like I said earlier, I wish the Harleys would write a column about Plan B when there are kids and a co-owned house, because that situation always seems to raise a lot of tactical confusion. The result is this Plan A/B no man's land, and it seems like the worst of both worlds.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But it is explicit in the PBL from SAA..... pp81
Until then I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you out financially our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children when you would like. I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will need to be through Jane and Paul."

If you look at the PBL guidelines that I have posted here at JFO it says exactly the same thing..... "in case of emergencies or to discuss the children or finances please talk to_____." I have a couple of clients and mentees that I act as intermediary for, but they are ones without children so it is just for financial or emergency matters..... difficult to exchange kids via email. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Easy and convenient? Not at all, quite horrid in fact. But what't the alternative? Yelling? Slapping? Calling the cops? Definitely not moving things in the right direction.

C

I agree, and that was the plan for this morning. However, she informed me that she would not be there as she was sleeping at OM's tonight. Hence, she came to get kids. I should have asked her to wait in her car, and I'd bring the kids to her. When we do transfer at her folks, that is pretty much how it goes. When the door is answered, I say bye and leave. When I pick them up, I wait outside until they come out.

This doesn't work though if she is sleeping at the f*cking pricks house...sorry, emotional response...anyway, you see the problem. What am I to do if she doesn't cooperate on the kid exchange?

You know K, you bring up a really good point. Well, more than one, but one in particular that has been rattling around in my head for a while. (You should see what it looks like in there... it's scary!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Anyone who has read what I write knows that I don't advocate calling an atty unless forced to. Much of that reluctance is due to my own 5 years and $20K+ in legal fees and much is due to what I see of others' experiences. But it's more than that. I was reading this morning from the book Ethics for the New Millenium by the Dalai Lama. Very interesting when thinking about POJA, BTW.

Anyway, he says this: "Who could fail to be impressed by our ability to land people on the moon? Yet the fact remains that if, for example, we were to go to a nuxlear physicist and say, "I am facing a moral dilemma, what should I do?" he our she could only shake their head and suggest we look elsewhere for an answer. Generally speaking, a scientist is in no better position than a lawyer in this respect. For while both science and the law can help us forecast the likely consequence of our actions, neither can tell us how we ought to act in a moral sense."

(emphasis mine)

This is so true when it comes to these cases. You can go to an atty and get advice about what to do in order to make sure that your bases are covered in the event that your spouse files for divorce. But the very act of taking those steps may move you in the direction of divorce and sometimes irrevocably so.

You can't have it all in this kind of a situation and most times you will need to choose which you are most willing to risk. The loss of your marriage or the loss of material goods and "rights." And yes, the risk exists that you will lose both, I recognize that. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm simply saying that there are very hard choices to be made and one needs to be very clear about what your goal is. If it's saving the marriage then do whatever you can to make every action as consistent with that as possible.

Mixing legal strategies to save property and such with strategies to end the affair and save the marriage is very often like mixing PlA and PlB..... a disaster.

I'm putting together a checklist of things to ask and tell an attorney, much like the questions I have for hiring a counselor or coach. When it's done I'll post it here or a link to where it can be found.

C

cerri,

When I did Plan B, I did talk to a very respected lawyer---and he gave me the advice that I wanted to hear.

"Do what you think is best for the marriage. If it doesn't work, we'll spend all your money trying to sort out the aftermath."

I did a Plan B separation by leaving (abandoning) my children and renting a place about 20 miles away (near my work). I would come to "our" house to be with the kids one night a week (my wife would leave---still too much contact, although I was pretty good at avoiding lovebusting). I got the kids on weekends. They did fine when they were with me. They put a lot of pressure on my wife when at home. In addition to that, she had the pressure of taking care of the house and doing everything that I would do. I did not cut her off financially (becuase she was a SAHM).

It was a hard decision (extremely so). It was successful: in part because of the pressure that my wife felt, because of the "relatively good" terms that I left on, and because she had enough time to romp around with the OM and get pregnant---interjecting a little of that "reality" that isn't so much fun to deal with in an affair. I'm sure that it could have worked out badly for me too---my wife divorcing me, getting the house and kids, and maybe having the OM move in. But my primary goal was to save the marriage---not save my house, or to get the kids to live with me while mom had to visit. And the Plan B that Steve and I put together seemed to be the best of some not very palatable choices.

WMWB: I'd like to see you more focused on what steps you feel are necessary to save your marriage. What you're going through isn't right, or fair---and what you're being asked to do is beyond the means of many people. But if you want your marriage---you've got to reach beyond yourself and get a plan into place that considers your marriage as the top priority.