wmmb -


I can understand the "emotionally challenged" concept, but I bet every single person who has implemented these stratgeies has felt that way, and using that as an excuse won't help you.

If you're on a diet, and really love cookies, you don't put yourself in a position of giving in by going to bakeries or by keeping cookies in your house. If you know (and you do) that contact with your wife is tempting you to abandoning your plan (and contacting her in itself is abandoning it), then DON'T DO IT!! While your calm and thinking clearly, put systems in place so your efforts can't be sabotaged by your more emotional times. YOU'VE GOT TO IMPLEMENT NO CONTACT!!!

I know...I know...you are right. I WILL work on that. Thank you for the brutle honesty, I really appreciate it.

You are sapping my will to live. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Look.....maybe it isn't the worst thing in the world that your W shared her misgivings with you about moving out. If she is ready to agree to n/c with the OM, then perhaps you should suggest that, under that condition, she move back in and you return to Plan A.

If she was amenable to that, then that would be an option.

She wasn't.

You know that now. She says that you are ignoring her and it is hurting her feelings about getting back together. You have explained Plan B, have explained the logic, have given her a Plan B letter. So that should not be confusing to her. It is therefore a fogged, manipulative stance she has taken. Therefore, back to Plan B, only no hugs, no contact, no relationship talks, no phone calls, no anything. No contact that can be interpreted by her as LBing. Tell us what you have done to establish an intermediary.

<sigh> Gawd, you are both so young. I didn't even get married until I was 28. It should be illegal until you are 30.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong>
<sigh> Gawd, you are both so young. I didn't even get married until I was 28. It should be illegal until you are 30..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you there. There are many thing which ought ot be illeagal until one is 30. Marrigae is probably chief among them...and parenthood.

Why were you asking about our ages? Just wondering where all the stupid idealistic thoughts are coming from?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong> Why were you asking about our ages? Just wondering where all the stupid idealistic thoughts are coming from? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was wondering why you were such a knucklehead. Turns out you are just a kid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Uhhhhh..... Plan A has no place in a post A vocabulary. At that point we talk Plan for Recovery.... something all the way different. Plan A is a strategy to end an affair - doesn't make much sense if the A is over.

C

WMWB,

I'm going to expound a little on what cerri has said here. When you are trying to end an affair....Plan A is important in establishing the marriage as a desirable alternative to the affair. It consists of specific things.....filling needs, stopping LBs, confrontation and exposure. AND....it is all that with the LACK of expectations. The WS (who is fogged or in withdrawal) is unlikely to reciprocate.

Once the affair ends.....recovery is planned differently. It's not all about the WS...it's also about you. It's about a no contact letter, accountability, extraordinary precautions to avoid a lover....and using the Four Rules of a Successful Marriage....time, honesty, care and protection.

Filling needs and avoiding LBs is good for ANY period of your marriage. But most people confuse that with Plan A....it isn't. In Plan A....you do those things without expectations in order to end the affair or help a spouse through withdrawal. But spending forever with no expectations is asking to be a doormat. When your spouse is ready to come home....there will be conditions attached to it....that is all part of the Recovery Plan.

Read the sections on the home site about Recovery....it will help prepare you for when your wife comes home. Also...please read Takola's thread about "If you are in Plan B" because it will help you understand how ANY contact in Plan B undermines and lengthens your pain....and success.

Stick with it....sounds like things are coming along....but you have to be stronger and more committed to your plan B if you expect to reach recovery! Good Luck

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Uhhhhh..... Plan A has no place in a post A vocabulary. At that point we talk Plan for Recovery.... something all the way different. Plan A is a strategy to end an affair - doesn't make much sense if the A is over. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, yeah, technically correct. But we all know that for the months following the breakoff from an affair, the WS is so screwed up that it is probably better to continue in the Plan A mindset then to change expectations to getting your needs met.

He can't capiche "no contact"...lets keep the nuclear physics out of it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yeah Mike I agree, WWMB is not ready for nuclear physics - but since he is having extreme difficulty with the concepts it might be really important to make the distinction between PlA and P4R now so that he has time for it to sink in?

See here's the thing - I'm not talking about expecting needs to be met, in fact that comes quite a ways into P4R - what I'm talking about that is so important is the absolute non-negotiable need for conditions BEFORE SHE COMES HOME.

Stuff like oh say...... a n/c letter, complete openess in all areas of her life (zero privacy), and accountability for time, whereabouts and money.

This is every bit as important as doing a good PlA or PlB - and probably more so. Most marriages don't end because of infidelity - almost all affairs end. Marriages end because there is no real recovery and as such the little shred of relationship that is left after an affair is completely eroded by the lack of recovery.

C

ps - I had a lightening bolt insight today that was triggered by WWMB's handicap that I want to make sure to share here. But not tonight -I gotta go steal some more TorT candy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Yeah Mike I agree, WWMB is not ready for nuclear physics </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gee, thanks. I may be an emotional cripple, but I know my physics!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Anyway, I apologize for letting you all down today. I'm taking this one day at a time and today was a bad day. Tomorrow will be better, I promise. She dropped the kids off from T&Ting and told me our youngest was getting a cold and was a little cranky. She started crying and got a little emotional before she left. I think this is going to be a good thing, her living alone for awhile.

Thanks for bearing with me today. And Cerri, I'm glad you are still talking to me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ! Sorry for causing all the frustration. Have a good night guys.

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> See here's the thing - I'm not talking about expecting needs to be met, in fact that comes quite a ways into P4R - what I'm talking about that is so important is the absolute non-negotiable need for conditions BEFORE SHE COMES HOME.</strong>

All true, and my bad for not specifying that as criteria for her return to the house. I did mean all that in addition to the no contact (particularly given the proximity of the OM)

What does bother me in this case is the very poor, and very short Plan A. I think that is being reflected in what his W is saying to him. She seems to want the gleam of hope that comes from a good Plan A...and it isn't there.

I can't imagine that WMWB could effect a good Plan A with the OM 2 doors over (I couldn't). That is a problem here. Mayber they shoud sell the damn house....

Plan A can be done in a letter. It doesn't need to be more than an expression of willingness to address the issues in the marriage. Nice if it can be more than that but it's not essential.

I wasn't into the infidelity side of MB when I found it, more the anger and control stuff, so I don't have as much in my head regarding how it was handled more than say three or four years ago. Also, almost all the training and studying I've done has been with Dr. H and not with Steve and Jenn so I would imagine there are differences in approach - simply because we are all unique in how we see and implement things.

That being the case I can only tell you what I've heard and continue to hear from that view. And you have to know that Willard Harley's stance is very (very very) pro BS. If you ever get a chance to hear him speak on this topic you will be impressed with his concern for the pain and suffering the BS endure and his very little patience with the WS.

I've heard callers start to talk about what they did wrong in the marriage and how they really need to do all this stuff while they are in PlA. And then I've heard him lecture them that although they may have contributed to the troubles in the marriage there is no excuse for infidelity and that their focus is to end the affair not try to suddenly become the perfect mate. In other words, not to take the blame for the A and not to think that they need to address every little complaint in order to make the WS happy.

Not that he ignores those things. He does talk with BS's about what probably went wrong in the marriage and the things they will need to do in recovery, but I don't hear it as a huge focus of PlA.

Well - I think that's about as rambling and disconnected as I can get - but then I've been working since 5am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (How do you spell obsessive? c-e-r-r-i )

C

Well, you are right, I'm more of a disciple of Steve's than of his dad. I think Steve's concepts have been tempered by the reality of his immersion in counseling. It is sort of hard to keep a counseling relationship going if you are going to berate the WS. Easier on the radio.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Plan A can be done in a letter. It doesn't need to be more than an expression of willingness to address the issues in the marriage. Nice if it can be more than that but it's not essential.</strong>

Yeas, well, technically true. Plan A has become a broader term on these boards than Harley intends, probably because he hasn't branded a neat term for "meeting ENs and eliminating LBs". Even people like me without an affair as the problem use the Plan A term.

Sure, Plan A can be done in a letter, a pronmise to change and meet needs. But in practice, a wtihdrawn spouse wants to see and believe that there is a change. When an affair situation is very volatile and LBing can't be stopped, Plan A sometimes goes to Plan B at a pace that is less than optimal. From Harley's Plan A/Plan B article:

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."


I think what we are hearing from WMWB's W is that she would like to return home, but she fears that her needs won't be met in the marriage. Typical flak from a fogged WS, or a problem that has to be overcome?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you are right, I'm more of a disciple of Steve's than of his dad. I think Steve's concepts have been tempered by the reality of his immersion in counseling. It is sort of hard to keep a counseling relationship going if you are going to berate the WS. Easier on the radio.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh Mike...I really think the world of Steve Harley. When my marriage was failing, he's the guy I called...but I'm going to have argue with your facts a little bit here. There is a MS and ten years (could be more now...but that's what the homesite says) of counseling behind Steve Harley's name. Willard has a PHD in Psychology and close to twenty years "immersion" in Marriage Counseling to his credit. When you talk about Steve's concepts being tempered....welllllllll these aren't exactly his concepts...he didn't come up with them and he didn't write them. Willard Harley is the genuis behind these concepts and Steve Harley is carrying on this legacy admirably and is greatly respected. The author of all these books....well it's Willard Harley. When people want to interview a ground breaking psychologist...they interview....Willard Harley. Oh and where did you get the idea he "berates" anyone? What he does do is make every effort to lessen the pain of the BS and every single thing he writes addresses the fact that the BS contributed to the affair.

Now WMWB....hope the Steve/Willard thingie didn't get your thread too far of track. I know the last thing you probably need is an argument from the folks trying to help you about whether to get in Steve or Willard's camp. I'm just gratified that it was JENN who told you to go to Plan B.....kind makes the rest of this pretty moot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, well, I'm kind of having a little personal struggle of my own here as Jenn and Cerri seem to differ a bit in approach. I've been talking to Jenn and doing what she says. But Cerri has a little different view of how I'm executing this stuff.

Jenn tells me that some contact is ok, while...well you see the carnage that bestows my thread here when I desclose such action. I think the world of both of them. But Jenn seems to have a much more layed back look on plan B. I kinda torn between the two. Now, granted, the advice in terms of where I should be (plan A or B or d or wherever) is essentially the same. The difference is in the execution.

WMWB,

Well ya know....I think the world of both of them too....but you can't listen to every voice at once....and I would never suggest that you go against the counselor that you chose and you trust. So tell me this....how much contact is okay with Jenn? As little as possible? A little? Some? I thought there was almost a month between visits....have you had a second appt? WMWB....I suspect that even Jenn would like to see contact at the bare minimum for this to be effective. It's not unrealistic that the two of you will accidently cross paths occasionally. The idea is to shoot for TOTAL no contact to keep that to a scant minimum...and undermine the plan as little as possible. The folks I know who do a good plan B....I saw you posted to mortarman...he rocks....have done it both ways...with and without contact. Just ask ANY of them what works. Do your best and that's all anyone can ask. Try not to get discouraged. If you get a chance to read mortarman's or mimi's old threads....be sure and look those up. You'll easily be able to see the difference immediately. And the difference...was no contact. Good Luck!

To back up cerri's comment: in talking with Steve about trying to get my wife (still in the affair fog) back in counseling, I brought up Dr. Harley. He laughed and said that it wouldn't be a good idea---the comment was something about his dad would tell my wife the way it is (straight), and if she didn't get on the plan---she wouldn't have a marriage. It's interesting that you don't get that impression from his writings.

In my opinion, Steve is better at getting WS's to participate in the counseling (while in the affair), at least for a while. He eventually helps them face the truth---but it's not quite as blunt as the direct approach. I'm not sure who's approach is more effective. And star---although it is Dr. Harley who has developed many of these concepts; it is Steve who is doing the day-in, day-out counseling. I have a Ph.D. too---and even though I've invented some wonderful lab techniques, I wouldn't presume that I was "better" than my associates who are doing them daily and improving on them.

K....Maybe I'm confused, because everything I've read led me to believe that WH developed these concepts while he was actively counseling...for a considerably long time. The fact that he has since quit taking patients in order to write and speak....doesn't really change that. I certainly didn't, and wouldn't say "better" at any time, nor did I compare WH/SH styles...I'll leave that the rest of you to duke out. I did find Mike's criticism about the radio show rather harsh since afterall these are WH's concepts and I am certain he has worked hard and with plenty of research (in marriages) involved. Steve is a wonderful counselor (I used him myself!) but to attribute these concepts to him is inaccurate. I am not familiar with what "improvements" you're talking about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> I did find Mike's criticism about the radio show rather harsh...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, thank god and about time. I've been carrying this "sensitive" label on my back like a piano for a week now.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been carrying this "sensitive" label on my back like a piano for a week now.....

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*giggle* ah comeon Mike....everybody knows you're a big softie on the inside....you're not fooling anybody. Otherwise, why would all this WH hardline stuff bother you? Trust me, nobody is advocating treating the WS badly in anyway....no LBs, POJA, care, protection....those don't fly out the window just because the BS is hurting. The WS is hurting too....and the vulnerablity of marriages is the responsibility of both parties.