Is it a normal part of the process that once he's confessed, to become completely cold and distant to me? It feels like he's trying so hard to push me away -- I'm trying not to buy into it, but it's very hard.

Advice please. . . . Hope

From my experience, YES. It might last a long time also. It is the "fog". The WS has created a whole fantasy world to enable the A. He/She had to make themselves believe things about their spouse and the M that aren't true.

I experienced this. I really believed my H always loved me deep down. I think he was at a lost place and vulnerable. In order to have the A, he had to believe the M was over and he didn't love me. Well, it is 9 mos past dday and he is here.

Is your spouse willing to commit to you and the M? Marriage counseling? Working on it? You need to find out. You might need to give it time though to get those answers. Don't give up.

There is a phrase I've read here that says, something to the effect of not believing 99% of what a WS says about the M. This FOG thing can be really deep. They really have no idea about reality. They've been lying to everyone and I think they get lost in their own web of lies.

It is an extremely hard time...not easy but be patient, patient, patient. I've learned that myself.

Read this board. You'll see so many people who've gone through this. Your M can recover but it will take work.

I went with my gut. I knew my H was behaving like a completely different person during the EA/PA. I knew the guy I fell in love with was in there. After it all came out, he gave me a really hard time. Alot of guilt and shame and he didn't really do well expressing that. If I had taken him at face value I would have given up a long time ago. But, I felt my M, my family and my H were worth the struggle even though I was devastated.

But, this process takes time. Good luck to you. Prayer helped me immensely when I just didn't know what else to do.

Thanks for the advice -- I just came from a counseling session with our MC. My H had to leave to go to an appointment, but I stayed for a few minutes later. He even said that he's confused. He says he just wants out, but then even the MC could see him soften slightly. I hope that means there's hope -- my problem is I always see the brightest side.

Is there anywhere in particular to read more about "the fog". I don't understand what he's going through, but want to. He seems to blame me for just about everything but cannot see his own faults -- I don't bring them up, I just try to accept my responsibility for what I have and have not done in our M and hope he will try. At least he agreed to another counseling session in 10 days.

Have you read "Surviving an Affair", I wish I had found it at the very beginning, it really helps take the guesswork out of what is going on.

I have found in the last 16 months you have to let them find their own way, which is much slower then ours unfortunetly, lol. You are lucky that your WS is willing to go to counseling, most are not. beware though mine went originally I think just to get his side across. He was very def that he did not want this to work, although I like you only saw the good. My C kept saying no he really means it. But then my WS started enjoying IC and working with the C even though it wasn't on the marriage, it was a beginning that lead to other things.

WH looking only at your faults is a hard thing. Thats when I first noticed something was wrong, because I couldn't do ANYTHING right. And it still continues. I have been working so hard on me and am so improved yet he keeps holding onto those faults. Recently I just told him, "You need to change your thinking I'm not that same person you find fault with, look at what I do today and not what I did a year ago." He actually responded its easier to keep those same thoughts and that the C told him the same thing that his wife is a new and improved model and he better start appreciating it.

Anyway like everyone told me at the beginning, you need to work on you without him in mind, meaning don't change for him but for you. And when you think he's ready for something then suggest it softly and don't expect him to jump in. Like my WS first read "His Needs/Her Needs" a girlfriend who has been through an A and she and her H now counsel others suggested it to us. I bought it and would read clips out of it that I thought related to him, not me. Things he would identify with and pretty soon he wanted to take it on trips with him. The SAA was a Godsend although once again I had to wait until he was ready, he had read the HN/HN and I said this is by the same author....... After he read it I saw the most change in him. It was his A in black and white. He even took to IC with him. I guess my point is the slowness of it is excruciating, after 16 months since D Day he is just now starting to feel remorse. But it is a process and you can help it along but cannot push it.
km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 4 and 11
ow was my best friend.

I am seeing now, how slowly this process is. He's here, for now, but I don't think he's really here. He's being even more secretive than ever. He's moved into the downstairs bedroom, which is fine, he needs his space. But now, he's spending more time with our youngest son, then he ever has before. I feel this may be very confusing to him. He loves his daddy, but what happens if his daddy decides to leave after all and he's given him all this attention lately? I think he'll feel very betrayed.

I try not to speak too much to him, as he hears what he wants to so he can find fault. This morning, our son wanted waffles so I toasted waffles for him. When I came back upstairs to start getting ready I told my H that he was downstairs eating his waffles. His response was "why cereal? I thought he wanted waffles?" It's almost like he's trying to show that only he has the children in mind. . . I don't know. I told him, no I said waffles, not cereal.

He sleeps with his phone so I think he's still calling her in the middle of the night and he makes sure he turns down the alarm so that I cannot tell from upstairs what door is being opened. It hurts so much, but I love him and don't want him to leave and I feel like as long as he stays here, reads the books the MC has suggested, we may have a chance.

Our MC suggested "After the Affair" and "The Case Against Divorce". I've read the Case Against Divorce. It was interesting, but my H tends to pick out only those ideas that subscribe to what he wants to do versus looking at every aspect. I don't think he believes that he has anything he needs to work on. In our counseling session yesterday he told me that for the past 18 years he has been meeting 4 out of my 5 needs according to the HN/HN book. He doesn't realize how little he knows about what those needs really entail. The only one he knows he hasn't been meeting is communication, but affection has been lacking too. His idea of affection is not mind and until we talk about these things he won't realize it. I'm hoping he gives us enough of a chance to get to that point.

Do I sound so desperate?

Hi Hope!

Keep up the good work and keep on posting. You sound stronger to me even though Yes, you sound desperate! But don't worry about that at all...this is a very very scary situation. Desperation is to be expected!

To answer your first question: who knows what normal is? (Other than it is normal to feel desperate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) My husband was an ice cube to me at one point. Wouldn't look at me, wouldn't talk to me, wouldn't (very very definitely wouldn't) touch me...not even accidentally.

What I know now is that he was so caught up in a maelstrom of guilt that he couldn't even think straight, nor could he meet my eyes most of the time. And judging by other WS stories, it&#8217;s also common to not remember things that happened. For example, I'll ask my H: why did you say this? He laughs (or groans) and says "I said that? I can't imagine what I was thinking&#8221; or he admits (deeply embarrassed) that he was lying, or being cruel because he was trying to keep me at bay, or something else he is ashamed of.

He himself hasn't described it as being in a fog, but he certainly admits: a) doing things he does not remember; b) doing things he cannot justify in any way now; c) doing things to either condone his A actions, or to keep me or the M at bay (like rewriting our marital history).

As Weezy described in her case, my husband never stopped loving me deep down and actually felt guilty &#8220;almost every time&#8221; he had sex with OW! I find this incomprehensible...why would he continue to do something that made HIM feel bad???

The FOG. That's why. He's there, he doesn't know why or how, or perhaps how to get out of there. Maybe he's looking for something but can't really figure out what that is.

Of course, this isn&#8217;t always the case. Some men love to cheat. They are not included in the above. Some truly have found the love of their lives (most of them say this but a very few really do mean it). They are not included in the above either. But for the rest, it is a pretty safe assumption that they are feeling lost and confused. Even if they don't know it yet because they are still lost in the happy portion of the fantasy.

Think about it: having an affair is NOT the action taken by a happy, self-aware, well-adjusted individual with a healthy dose of self-esteem. Therefore it is inevitable that a lot of negative emotions, behaviour and communication will emerge over the course of the A. And while a lot (or most) of it will be directed at the BS, a lot is internalized within the WS, either consciously or unconsciously.

I have a couple of suggestions for you: to understand the fog better, just keep on reading here. I'm a compulsive reader and perhaps you are not (although you are a good writer which usually indicates a good reader). My point is: the more you read, the more you will understand on an emotional level.

Someone else may be able to suggest further reading about the fog, but what I found most helpful was to read literally hundreds of personal stories -- you see the same patterns over and over again. Some will be different from yours, others quite similar. But the value of this reading is that you really start to ACCEPT the fog, understand INSIDE you how powerless you are to do anything about it, and how it is just something you must live through. Period. This will help calm you, I promise.

Work, focus, concentrate on yourself to maintain sanity in an insane situation. (Chaos was how my counsellor put it.)

Another suggestion is: prepare yourself for just how long it will be before you get what you need back for yourself. I back KM up on this one -- remorse is way down the road at this point.

And he is NOT going to admit his deficiencies -- that's not a part of the expectations at this point. You are trying to get him to see the value of your marriage, how it is or can be good for him.

If it helps you to hear this, my H saw the value of our M long before he gave me any indication he was even paying the slightest bit of attention to what I was doing (I made HUGE changes in myself as part of Plan A). Why? He needed time to absorb the implications, to assess what the changes meant for him, to believe that these changes were sincere, etc.

Listen Hope: at this point I still didn't have a clue that he was even thinking anything along these lines -- he was still seeing OW, laughing with her, talking animatedly with her, and having sex with her. But he was thinking about me and our M. How to undo the huge (he figured insurmountable) mess he'd created.

I thought he was starting to question the A, to decide where he wanted to be yet as it turned out, he knew he wanted to be with me all along. But again, there was no indication of that: Do you keep having an A if you really want to be with your wife? (Apparently so!)

The upshot is that he would say one thing, do another, and make plans that were completely inconsistent with either one.

I think it's because the state of chaos includes lies but also a lot of misdirection. They don't know or even like where they are and they keep everyone else guessing too. Perhaps it is a basic survival instinct?

One last suggestion: as regards your son&#8230;we don't have kids, we have dogs. They are our babies. He was emotionally removed from them and I took every opportunity to tell him about their well-being, cute stories, how much they missed him, etc. It was one of the few (the only?) things we shared in the first couple of weeks. As time went on, he thawed noticeably, starting pointing cute things out to me and responding to the fact that they missed him when he wasn't home.

Do you see? Not me&#8230;them. It wasn't me wanting him home&#8230;it was them. It was &#8220;safe&#8221; for him to come home to them. But whatever the reason&#8230;he came home.

And that was what I thought rwhen eading your post...anything that keeps him closer to home, reminds him of what he is contemplating giving up, gives him a warm fuzzy feeling fully based in reality...I think this is a good thing.

But dogs aren't kids so there ends my analogy...only you can decide whether or not you think the attention will be harmful for your son in the end. Although I can't help but ask: how would you curtail their contact? awed.

P.S. I forgot to mention selective hearing loss also seems to be a common problem...perhaps having an A significantly increases the build-up of ear wax? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Awed: you know it's funny, I am trying to read everything I can. I come to this site several times a day just to read. I go to the bookstore. I have bought many books, although some are not really relevant. They may help later, however.

We had a conversation yesterday that was interesting. He's read HN/HN, After the Affair and he's current reading The Case Against Divorce. the comment that was so interesting was that he wanted to read a book about the pros of divorcing since all the books we've read so far seem to be only about the pros of staying in the marriage. I actually went to the book store to see if such a book existed and couldn't really find it. I figure he's looking for a book that will help him make up his mind about whether he should stay or go. All the books I found were either about how to make your marriage owrk, or how to survive once the decision had actually been made. Any thoughts on this?

Last night was ok. I asked him to complete the Emotional Needs Assessment with me and he actually agreed. We have a long conversation about it and I told him I learned alot, which I did. I saw him ranking things differently, but at least now I have an awareness of which things to work with. Unfortunately, he's not ready to let me be affectionate (at all) with him or sexual fulfillment. I understand that, but I still find it hard to not want to write a nice note, or buy a card, etc. I guess I'll take what I can get for now.

I truly believe that he has feelings for me deep, deep down, but he's not ready to admit to them. He really wanted me to make this easy for him and I've told him and one of our friends that I simply will not do that. I will not just yell, scream, rant, rave and tell him to get out because that's exactly what he wants me to do to make it easy -- he told me that. He has told me that I need to get mad. I think he's waiting for the storm, but it's not coming. I'm plenty mad, but I'm trying to chanel my anger differently -- something I've definitely learned about myself lately.

As far as the selective hearing loss -- I think it's just selective hearing period. He hears what he wants, reads what he wants and interprets what he wants to suit his needs.

Hnaging in there. . . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He hears what he wants, reads what he wants and interprets what he wants to suit his needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do sound good! You're absolutely on the right track -- and his needs are all confused right now so ignore any negative, praise/reward the positive, and carry on with your own changes, developments, interests, activities, etc.

All I can tell you is what I've read or what happened in my own case...which is not "typical" on many levels but boringly so on others! But I was successful in Plan A and I think this is in part because things were so bad prior to that, that I had to do a perfect Plan A! Absolutely no LBs...

So if I seem picky, that's why. It worked for me.

But despite anything I say, you need to adjust anything anyone tells you (or you read) to your own situation...you know your husband and are likely more tuned into him now than you've ever been before (or perhaps since you were first in love!).

With that caveat in mind, here are my thoughts after reading your post this morning.

Affection: some guys are "affectionate" throughout the A. Yours isn't, mine wasn't. It's really important that you do not take any of it personally!!! (Hope: I know how hard it is to do this part...I'm just trying to motivate you, I'm not being critical.)

So accept it and back off. Completely. And do not buy him anything, or make any romantic gestures.

Then if/when you sense a softening -- when you SENSE it is time -- try using the little intimacies. A little soft touch here and there. Close down some of the space between you if you can. Re-establish the touches of love and intimacy (ie. I rubbed his hair in passing, touched his knee to get his attention, loving/teasing gestures...very small things) and don't jerk back if he does, withdraw slowly. Use humour if you need to deflect rejection. Then leave it a few days and try again. Execute a slow slow campaign of love.

But still don't expect any reciprocal affection from him! Do it as part of a campaign to remind him of your love and to breakdown some of the OWs space.

This worked for me, in part because I had an awesome MB "coach" who gave me a good understanding of how to seduce men when they don't want to be. I've never done this before...always backed off because of my fear of rejection.

And the really cool part is that now I've become pretty darn good at simply ignoring rejection and carrying on. Personal growth for sure, albeit learned through great pain.

Another thought: have you looked at the 180s? Can you use them? It does peak their interest. If any of the problem is related to boredom or his sense that he's missing out on whatever, then changes in you can be intriguing...he thinks he knows you so well and maybe he doesn't!

Sadly it appears that for many men, they will not come back until they sense their wife is really moving on. I wonder if the 180s represent an earlier stage, sort of a warning that life can be different and not only for them?

For what it is worth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I think it's a positive sign that he's willing to work with you on stuff. And that he's still there.

So: Are you thanking him? Finding a meaningful way to do so? (ie. based on his ENs and LBs)

In my case, he hated discussing the R (I did way too much of it over the past couple of years, LBing throughout) and felt underappreciated by me so if he'd participated like your H did with you (mine did NOT), I would have said something like: "thanks so much for the great talk last night...I know I'm a talker and you're not...this stuff bores you silly!"

Do you know what I'm getting at here? Find something beyond "thank you" so that he knows you are sincere and truly appreciate the effort he's making. Because he is making an effort, despite his negative comments. I know his effort is nothing compared to "leave the OW!!!!" which you'd probably like to scream at him, but he'll notice your appreciation, particularly if it is in light of his ENs and/or your former LBs with him.

Don't necessarily expect him to acknowledge it though. My H would normally not even say "thank you" when I gave him a drink he'd asked for let alone for anything else I did for him. So when I thanked him for things he'd done, I'd usually get either silence or at best a grunt. But he NOTICED...

Pro-divorce books: I bet there are a bunch that were printed in the 80s, a time of total self-absorption. Perhaps you could discuss this with him? How the societal focus is shifting away from support for the short-term "do-what-feels-right" mentality to the long-term benefits of marital stability. The current literature documents and reflects this trend which is why it would be hard to find a pro-divorce book in a new bookstore.

(Hahaha..."Divorcing for Dinosaurs"...available in your nearest musty old bookstore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Saving marriages is a very 21st C thing to do!

Awed: your stories are truly helpful to me. I don't feel so alone in my situation. I'd really be interested in what your coach taught you on "seducing" men. I've never really done this, see my H is only my 3rd relationship when were married.

I want to try to meet his needs but out of the top 5 it seems like the only one he may allow me to do is Family Commitment, and I think that's because then he knows the children are being cared for. Affection is in the top 5 but how do you give affection if he won't allow it? I feel basically I'm doing all the needs that don't really seem to add up to much, but do they add more than I'm thinking?

Affection...see my answers above again. Have you tried making small gestures yet? He may not let you at this point but don't let your fear of rejection prevent you from doing so. You need to be strong to do this, but I know you can!

Conversation = affection. Sharing details of day, feelings, etc. = affection. Thanking him = affection. Being cheerful = affection.

Don't think of it as hugging and kissing -- is that what you are doing? Think of it creatively and see where it gets you. And remember that it doesn't matter if he acknowledges it, just that you are making the effort.

How did you show him affection in the past? What would he call affection? Do you know?

What are his other needs? Maybe someone else will have opinions on these as well.

I know my H extremely well. But one day, this alien told me he didn't love me, hadn't for a long time and couldn't commit to staying even one more day with me. He never participated in any MB activity (like counselling, reading anything, etc.) and would not discuss the R.

So I went cold turkey. That was it for R talk until I blew the whistle on his A 2 months later. I lived in a complete vacuum of info. I could only rely on my instincts as to what were the "right" things to do. I knew what the wrong things were though so what I often did was a 180 to the wrong thing in the hope that it would be the right thing!

I'm trying to give you practical advice because that was something I felt was lacking here...everyone talks in general terms when you really want a how-to guide sometimes. But on this issue, there is no formula because we all interpret something like "affection" differently.

For example, some people consider calling all the time affection, others find it a LB! With my H, I knew that he hates the phone. In the past, he always called me (several times a day). I called him when I was angry or needed him to do something (often a Selfish Demand). But now, the OW was calling him up to 7 times a day.

So I figured that since MLC advice involved "back off and leave him to it" (there's a lot of cross-over with MB advice luckily), I would do just that. I would not call him, I would let him call me. Otherwise I figured maybe everytime he heard my voice on the phone, he would tense up, waiting for some angry outburst, exposing of A, something negative.

And EVERY time he called me, I was cheerful, obviously happy to hear from him and answered his questions in a straightforward manner, giving no sign if they hurt or were contradictory or cancelled plans (most of the time). I can't count the number of times I told him to "have a good night" when he called to say he wasn't coming home, even though I knew this meant he was going to spend the evening with OW.

It just about killed me. I felt so alone, I wanted to call him. When he didn't call, I wanted to call him just to hear his voice, or to check to see if he really was where he said he was. And geez, it was so hard to cheerfully tell him to have fun when he was going to **** OW.

You will become really really strong Hope. That's all the good news I can tell you. And the hurt gets less.

When I asked him earlier this week about this, he said he was sick and tired of OW calling him all the time. I asked if she was meeting a need I hadn't recognized in the past, if he felt that I didn't care about him because I didn't call him. Absolutely not, he said. I said I thought I was respecting him and his day because I'd always left it to him to call me when it was convenient for him to do so. He said, yeah I know and I really like that.

He knows I look out for his needs. He would have told you a couple of months ago that I did not love him, maybe even that I hated him, certainly never seen that I look out for his needs and how much it means to him that I do so.

Our situations are very different but the point remains valid: I figured out what things were important to him and applied them regardless of whether or not he "let" me. I FOUND ways to apply them wherever I could, I did so absolutely every chance I got, and it worked flawlessly for me.

But...there was no indication that it was working.

I am telling you this not to give you false hope but to get you to understand that you have no idea whether or not it is working until it has. Stop looking for validation, you won't get it from him.

Here's your validation:

First: if you do the "right" thing for you first and foremost, such as learning better behaviours and habits or getting out more and doing things that are important to you, none of this will be a waste of time.

Second: you will have done everything in your power to save your marriage. That is a very good thing. Remember (I am like a broken record but you should be saying this in YOUR head all the time): you have no control over what he does, hence no control over whether or not your efforts will be successful. It is the road that is important here, not the destination.

Third: you will have created the right environment to go to Plan B if necessary. Often the WS will not end the A until Plan B goes into effect. But unless you've done a good Plan A, the WS doesn't have that ideal world to compare to his new one. We want him to miss all those little things he is ignoring or doesn't think are important right now.

Oh yeah: My "coach" was JL...I find I learn so much from his vantage point of how men think. Ummmm...I'm new at all this posting stuff (MB is my second board, the first was the MLC board but I found their approach wasn't proactive enough for my situation)...I have a thread somewhere over on JFO, called "confronting or retreating". I'll bump it for you. I'm not sure how much you'll get from it (again, we're dealing with very different issues) but you never know!

He's also been coaching someone called Margue on Emotional Needs...her thread title begins with JL so I'm sure you'll find it easily enough.

The way I used the info was to put myself in a different mindset. I find something wonderful (saying I love you) but how does H see it? Perhaps as manipulation? Ah ha! Well then, I'll ask him about his day, see if I can find something that seems to click with him.

I did not say I love you, try to hug him, kiss him, etc. for 2 months. But I did the little stuff above.

I used my knowledge of my H but put it through the new lens of communication that JL gave me. Have you read any of the Mars/Venus stuff? I think that was one of the references JL gave me but I never got it (maybe I should now!).

Awed: I tried just this morning, and gently touched his shoulder when I was asking him if he needed to be up by a certain time. I'm not sure it's the fear of rejection that I'm afraid of or the comment he made that "if I push, I could push him in the other direction". So I want to be subtle and not try to do too much.

Unfortunately as far as conversation goes, he claims he's on the phone so much that he doesn't want to talk when he gets home. I try ot make some small talk, ask about his day, etc. Right now since I haven't been to work all week (just way too emotional and not able to focus) I don't have much to share in that way either.

In the past I think I was bad at affection, but until about 3 months ago I didn't realize it. Since then I have been meeting him at the door when he gets home, sitting next to him on the couch versus across the room (as he indicated once to me), holding his hand, snuggling, etc. When we did the EN questionnaire he indicated that he wanted affection 2-4 times a day and the only hint I got that would like would be to rub his back/neck. I'm going to explore more of these when we see the MC next week.

His top 5 needs are: Admiration, Family Commitment, Affection, Sexual Fulfillment and HOnesty and Openness. I'm not sure how to meet admiration since he doesn't talk to me about anything, I'm doing family commitment every day, I'm honest with him whenever we do talk but the affection and sexual fulfillment are ones he won't even let me try. Suggestions??

Whenever we are together or have a phone conversation I do try to be as cheerful and sound like I'm ok. Sometimes I think he tends to be softening, but I'm not sure if it's just my wishful thinking or if it's reality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I just bought SAA today and have started reading it. Once I'm done, I will put it down in the room he is sleeping in and see if he will read it. I think he may find it interesting as it seems to have both points of view in it and I think that's what he's looking for. However, I'm only up to Chapter 5.

I'll try to fine the EN threat with Margue, see what I can get from it.

Keep up the good work!!! (Now I'm responding to the info on your other thread...) I don't think you LB'ed at all. You were honest and let him take the lead (he started the kissing). And he said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I shouldn't want to do this </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see? He is confused AND conflicted...otherwise he wouldn't be passionately kissing his wife. He's trying to keep the barriers up -- you are gently pressing on them which is making it hard for him to do so. He doesn't WANT to feel this way, he wants it cut and dried because it would be simpler.

Hope...this is a good sign in my opinion. Doesn't MEAN everything is going to work out. It means that your approach is working...it's softening him up.

DON'T PUSH. Don't get hasty, don't push. If you sense something you're doing is bothering him -- in an annoying, irritating way, not making him uncomfortable because of his conscience -- back off again. Try again later. And don't push following last night's closeness. It may not happen again for a while. Be prepared to wait it out. It was GOOD.

***I should explain the above: what I mean is that if something is bothering him because it conflicts with what he thinks he SHOULD feel, then it is okay to continue doing it. But if it bothers him because it annoys him, then stop and reconsider whether you should do it again. Sometimes it might just bother him at that moment, sometimes it really is something that annoys him so you must stop doing it.

Remember this one too: time is on your side. Not hers. Not the side of D. The side of your M. The longer he dithers, the longer he has a chance to come out of the fog.

SF: No you can't fill this need until he lets you. But you can let him know in whatever way possible that you find him attractive. And passionate kissing sessions are pretty darn great for that!

Affection: tone of voice, teasing, laughing...lots of ways to show affection. You are doing a great job, holding hands, talking about people around you in the casino, etc.

Admiration: work at it if you have to. Figure it out. What can you admire (was he good at BJ?) about him. Ask him his opinion -- that's usually one men can't resist! Listen with bated breath. (Read JL's stuff to get some other ideas...)

Keep being creative and wonderful with him. You're wonderful Hope! Remember that and ask those people you are talking to every day to remind you too.

Confidence is going to be another good thing to project. Unless your H likes a clingy wife (didn't seem like it to me from my reading of your details), then confidence is a good thing.

Like when he shows you affection then starts to withdraw, don't be desperate! Don't be bitter. Make a joke if you can. Just let go and mentally hug the good time that just happened.

If I'm not mistaken this good time (the casino and kissing et al) wouldn't have happened between you a month ago? Then revel in that progress. Progress is baby steps...I'm sure you've read that here before.

Specifically?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not sure it's the fear of rejection that I'm afraid of or the comment he made that "if I push, I could push him in the other direction". So I want to be subtle and not try to do too much.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes...this cannot be seen as pushing. Don't do it in a pushy way is the best I can say. Think subtle, think "I can't keep my hands off you you sexy guy" not "I can't bear not to touch you because I am hurting so much".

Do you get the difference? A lot of it is in your mind. Seduction starts in the mind and moves to the body later. Lingering, soft, very small touches are what I mean. Small intimacies between you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately as far as conversation goes, he claims he's on the phone so much that he doesn't want to talk when he gets home. I try ot make some small talk, ask about his day, etc. Right now since I haven't been to work all week (just way too emotional and not able to focus) I don't have much to share in that way either.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Force yourself...read something in an area that interests him...daily events, hobbies, whatever. Plan a few things that you can discuss. Your son? What he's up to? A cute story?

Again, be creative. Look -- you're spending all your time thinking about this anyway. Spend the time to YOUR advantage instead of spinning your wheels.

Once you find out what's working, keep it up. And if he really doesn't want to talk (hey, everyone's entitled to a bad day!), then shut up. You are showing respect for his feelings. Don't sulk, and be chipper again when he talks to you.

This may all seem like weird advice...all I can say is it worked like a charm for me. He couldn't ignore the changes, couldn't ignore the charm, couldn't ignore...ME. Nor could he resist the pull...he felt it big-time.

I guess I should have been in the military...I saw it as war and would do whatever it took to win the war. Even if it killed me inside. However, never outside of honesty...everything I started with him (like the interest in what he is doing every day) I am continuing now. And he knows it. And respects it.

As JL says, men like to be manipulated. But in a good way. That's what I'm trying to convey to you using these examples.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the only hint I got that would like would be to rub his back/neck </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...if he'll let you do this, DO IT. Great thing...sexual, affection, just a terrific thing to do with anyone. It's how one of my past relationships began...he fell for me when I massaged his back (I have been told I give a great massage). I massaged my H's feet the other day and he just about freaked. I think men find massage very sexy, as well as relaxing.

Any touch between you is awesome.

Again, great work. And please don't fret over the affection/SF that happened between you. Use it to tell yourself that your plan is working, not to get desperate and push him for a repeat. It was a gift so accept it as such for now.

<small>[ October 11, 2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed, I know you're getting back from vacation but I hope when you get back on the boards you can give me some more advice, of course, I'll take advice from everyone else as well, the more advice I get, the better off I am.

This week was truly a rollercoaster. One day he's showing affection, the next day he's distant and seems angry again. We had a session with our MC today and I have some more questions. . . .but isn't that what it's all about?? questions?? Here goes:

My H told the MC that he thought our M was done as of last year/begginning of this year. Additionally, he contends that the PA didn't start until about June of this year. He told the MC that if he were leaving me, it wasn't going to be because of the OW. Is this just his way of trying to deflect the A? So he can say that the A was not the demise of the M?? I guess I find it hard to believe that if you really thought your M was over, you wouldn't wait until you were fully entangled in a PA (EA going on for about 1 1/2 years prior) to go see a counselor and then try to end the M. Am I making sense???

The second thing he's said a couple of times is that he wants to make sure I'm taken care of? Once it was said when he wanted ot make sure I had someone I could talk to /confide in. The other time it was said was today at the MC, we were talking about the fact that he saw her at an industry trade show and I was trying to relate my feelings about that to if I were to go back to work for an old boss that I confided in. His comment at that point was that it would be easier for him to leave because then he'd know that I was taken care of. What are your thoughts on this??

This waiting game, for him to figure out if he wants to recommit to the M is driving me crazy. We talked a little this week and he commented that he felt he needed to fix him before he could work on us? Is this common?

Enough for now, when I come up with more questions, and I'm sure I will, I'll post again.

Thanks for all the advice -- from everyone!

Hi Hope,

I read the boards a couple of times last week but thought you were getting excellent advice from others so didn't respond to your last few posts.

In a way, I am loathe to give you more advice because your H could be feeling very differently from mine, and all the advice I have to offer you is based on my experience. Do you understand this caveat? I am worried that you are still looking for answers that aren't there, at least right now, and not for a long time at best.

Basically, all I can do is repeat the other advice already given... you have to find the strength within yourself to ride the rollercoaster you did not choose to get on.

That said, once again our situations are scarily similar.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This week was truly a rollercoaster. One day he's showing affection, the next day he's distant and seems angry again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I know exactly how this feels.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H told the MC that he thought our M was done as of last year/begginning of this year. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yup. What a surprise to find out that despite regularly telling me he loved me, he was starting to emotionally attach to another woman. And didn't give me a clue he was feeling this way. No wonder I was going nuts earlier this year.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told the MC that if he were leaving me, it wasn't going to be because of the OW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yup. He maintains (and I fully believe him) that this was never a possibility except in her twisted little mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is this just his way of trying to deflect the A? So he can say that the A was not the demise of the M?? I guess I find it hard to believe that if you really thought your M was over, you wouldn't wait until you were fully entangled in a PA (EA going on for about 1 1/2 years prior) to go see a counselor and then try to end the M. Am I making sense??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...sigh. Hope: yes, you make sense but please stop trying to make sense of his thought process! My H. did not WANT our marriage to end. Gosh you couldn't tell by his actions though!! So who knows what or why your H is doing what he's doing. Chances are he can't even articulate this clearly and/or will keep on changing his mind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The second thing he's said a couple of times is that he wants to make sure I'm taken care of? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes, this was apparently a source of great argument between my H and the OW. She kept pushing him to leave me but he wouldn't until I was "OK". (Huh???) Who knows???? Why are we wasting time trying to figure it out? Just accept the obvious...he's conflicted or he wouldn't still be there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This waiting game, for him to figure out if he wants to recommit to the M is driving me crazy. We talked a little this week and he commented that he felt he needed to fix him before he could work on us? Is this common? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...again, I can't say if this is common, only that it mirrors my H's thinking.

BUT: you must stop thinking this way. I know it's driving you crazy so what are you doing about it? You need to post about things YOU are doing, not what he might be thinking. Leave that for the counselling.

You cannot change his mind about anything. If he needs time, let him have it. I've said it before: time is YOUR friend as long as you can Plan A effectively (which it sounds as though you are doing). But I can't judge what you're not saying or telling here...are you really appearing confident, happy, relaxed? Have you stopped following him around the house or telling him you love him?

Besides potentially pissing him off, those actions are hard on you. For example, I found it hard not to snoop so I chose my times, kept them to a minimum and did not cheat (scuze the pun). That kept pain to a minimum...just allowed me to keep an external check on what might be happening in the A.

The above specific may not apply to you but I know something else will, and the principle applies. I can tell that you are too focussed on him...you need to detach emotionally, work on yourself, make yourself happy.

I think I've shared enough stories with you that you know these are not empty words...they are actions I had to take myself in order to feel better. And I did...despite what H was up to.

Recovery is a hard road Hope...you need to get yourself through basic training in order to survive the battlefield. I'm concerned and want you to make it through this...I think you can do it, but you need to just DO IT.

So...what do you think? How are you doing today?

Awed

Awed, thanks for the pep talk.

What am I doing???
1. I have stopped following him around. That was hard, but I take all the advice I get here to heart.
2. I do not tell him I love him outloud. I say it to myself constantly, but never outloud. It helps me to cope some.
3. I try to look happy, confident and relaxed, but not always doing a great job of that. I will keep this in mind to do a better job of it.
4. On Saturday I actually went for a run -- by myself. Now mind you, I'm not really the exercising kind of girl, but it seemed to help me. I wanted to ask him to come along, but refrained!! I was proud of me.
5. On Friday I did go out with a girlfriend. Hard, but I knew I had to.

Today? little hard to say, I'm still reeling from the alcohol my neighbors fed me. Happened to go over to their house (H wasn't home) and started talking to them and pretty soon I think I'd had about 6 beers. It was nice to talk to someone (actually a couple) and they were both supportive. I didn't feel so alone then. I think I'm just getting to the point where I can go and do things so maybe that will help.

I told our MC on Friday that I finished reading SAA and he told my H that he should read it as well. I know he started it, it'll be interesting to discuss it with him. Would you recommend discussing it with him or waiting until our next session??? Should all "relationship" talks be reserved for the MC??? I don't know. I play it by ear, but sometimes I don't know if I'm doing anything to irritate him.

He told the MC and I that for about 3 days following a weekend we had sex that he felt like he wanted to move out. Did your H ever feel this way??? Is it just because he's so confused that this feeling comes over him??? I'm really trying to understand him, the feelings, etc.

Awed, thanks again for the pep talk. I need to reread my 180 degrees. . . .

Hope
besthope42000@yahoo.com

Hope,

You don't realize this but CONFLICT as you have described is exactly where you want your H to be. It is far better than withdrawal.

Awed has given you some great advice, keep following it.

Let me offer you something to do. Watch men, especially men who are friends. Watch how they interact with one another. Then watch women, and watch how they interact with one another.

You will learn alot about your H, or men in general. You are doing well to sit by him, make physical contact with him, he does NOT need to hear the words YET.

Ever wonder what to old male friends talk about?? You would be surprised how little they talk at all. Just a joke, poking fun at the other one, maybe some oneupsmanship, but talking, relating?? Nah! They don't need it. They can be sitting there saying nothing and they are sharing. What are they sharing??? Time, quiet, peace, comfort.

I am not saying be like a "good ole boy". I am saying consider that things other than "feelings", "relationships", etc, can be shared. Most women do not value what men value, and vice versa but as you watch you will learn how best to communicate and SHARE with your H.

He sounds conflicted. Wants out, doesn't want out. But, guess what he does want. Happiness, peace, comfort, quiet, don't you???? So when exploring the 180's that Awed suggested, keep an eye on what would make your environment more conducive to these things. I will bet the OW did some of that partly because she was NOT married to him and did NOT have all of the obligations and such to deal with. Their time together was one of little distraction.

You cannot make life destraction free, but you can reduce the stress. That will help him see things differently, AND it will help you. If you are not as stressed he won't be either. He would much rather sit next to a woman that was smiling, than frowning. You would too.

So go back and reread what Awed has posted to you, but ask yourself: Does this make life less stressful, is it consistent with what like before, and likes in his friends, does it lead to physcial contact rather than words? All of these question will change your perspective and the filter with which you evaluate your H's behavior.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hope!!!! Wow! Now that's a good list!!! Good for YOU and I sincerely mean that.

Now I'll sound critical but just one small additional point: Remember to talk to the neighbours about fun stuff too...or watch a comedy together. Laughter is awesome, the best thing for you.

I found being with other people (but talking about something else!!!) allowed me to forget my troubles for a time...the anxiety attacks started again when I was alone but at least I'd gotten that period of critical relief that helped me to carry on.

My own feelings about your questions are:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 3. I try to look happy, confident and relaxed, but not always doing a great job of that. I will keep this in mind to do a better job of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...keep telling yourself you FEEL happy etc., not just look. After a while, it actually happens. Yeah right? Well...it does. But you can't fool yourself. You have to actually do the good things for yourself that will eventually allow you to feel better about YOUR life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wanted to ask him to come along, but refrained!! I was proud of me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and so you should be -- good for you!

Okay: here's the next step...wait until he asks to come along, look surprised and say warmly "Sure, I'd love it if you did", then accept his apology graciously and sincerely when he subsequently backs out using a feeble excuse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And make sure you still go out running. And then tell him -- but only if he asks -- that you had a great time, hope he can come along on a future run!

You see where I'm going here? How do you ride out the rollercoaster? You learn to expect the downs with the ups and ride them out. No LBing.

Think this step is hard? How about when you've finally gotten everything together between you, resolved to work everything out, and then you see him not meeting your eyes and acting suspicious. The A starting all over again???

Actually in my case, NO. But that darn rollercoaster keeps on going. Recovery is hard. Keep learning...you will get tougher. And cry less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Would you recommend discussing it with him or waiting until our next session??? Should all "relationship" talks be reserved for the MC??? I don't know. I play it by ear, but sometimes I don't know if I'm doing anything to irritate him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I find the parallels eerie. Does your H hate relationship talks by any chance? If so, my gut would say leave them to the counselling unless he initiates the convo. You know your H best though.

I already told you this part of my story -- we didn't discuss the R until I exposed the A. That's 2 months without a peep from me to him about the R. It was tough on me but he figured out a lot of stuff on his own that way, which I remain convinced he would not have done if I had pushed, even slightly.

Of course, JL has the best advice on how to re-evaluate your actions from a man's perspective. Consider his wise words closely...they really helped me change my approach dramatically (which my H not only noticed but noticed big time).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told the MC and I that for about 3 days following a weekend we had sex that he felt like he wanted to move out. Did your H ever feel this way??? Is it just because he's so confused that this feeling comes over him??? I'm really trying to understand him, the feelings, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...stop trying Hope. It's futile.

Here's another story for you to ponder...I apologize if I've already told this one to you!

The worst night for me in some ways...when I finally saw him look at her with longing in his eyes. I knew that look -- previously he'd had it only for me. And despite watching them closely over the past few weeks, I'd not seen a hint of it from him to her (just from her to him).

I just about died inside when I saw that look on his face. I decided it was over between us. Not for the first time but this time, I really lost all hope. I went and called my mom (anytime, day or night, she's the best). Just to vent and cry. He walked in in the middle of the call. Drunk (as usual around OW). Talked with me pretty normally, friendly. Fell asleep for a short bit. Told me to tell him when I was leaving and he'd help with the dogs. This was more friendly than he'd been up to this point. Very weird...

Then we went back to the show...he kept staring at her across the room. I finally left, in tears again. Resolved on the way home that I was through trying. Just couldn't take the pain anymore. Then changed my mind again by morning...

When he called, he told me he couldn't believe I'd left without saying anything to him! Hmmmm...I did not scream, I did not yell, even though I thought: "go straight to H*LL"! (This is my weak Dr. Suess attempt... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Instead I calmly explained that I became overwhelmed with tiredness (pretty honest) and left immediately without looking around for him. We had a VERY friendly chat for about an hour and later I found out...that he had not slept over at her house! Wow!!!

And the next day I learned that she'd phoned him 7 times in a row early that morning (I got this from checking the phone log). Obviously something was not right between them after all? Boy, was I ever glad I had not implemented any of my revenge fantasies, or LB'd him as I was sorely tempted to do, or given up within myself.

Now...flash forward to our full and frank discussion of the A. Guess what really happened that night Hope??? He'd told her it was over between them. That's why the longing glances -- he was feeling guilty at having hurt his "friend". That's why the ambiguity. At the same time I was giving up, he was poised to give her up. And 10 days later, he did.

Does this story help you to understand what I'm getting at? To see how right and wrong our interpretation can be? How it both helps and hinders us?

What served me true was actually my commitment to Plan A results for ME, consistency in my behaviour that was true to ME, and belief that I was doing the right thing for ME. These beliefs helped both my H and my M, provided a rock of stability in a chaotic situation. And they helped ME no matter what the outcome.

In your case, they will help YOU and your children. Be strong.

One last piece of advice. Print off any little inspirational bits that help you. Or save them in a file (that's what I did). Re-read them every day. Or read different ones depending on your mood. Use them to motivate yourself in whatever direction is needed.

Note: I have tons so let me know if you want me to send you some files. The subjects changed depending on what I thought I needed to focus on..."accept personal responsibility", "anger", "boundaries", "boundaries vs selfish demands", "detach", etc.

I read a great website on how to change yourself, the hardest thing to do. They recommend printing and reading your personal conviction over and over, day after day for months. That's how long personal change takes.

I think it takes less time during times of crisis and trauma but that's according to my personal experience.

You're doing really well Hope under extraordinarily bad circumstances. You are a strong and committed person. Good things will happen to you in the future but you must keep yourself firmly in the present right now, and do your best for yourself and your kids.

Now there's pep talk for you! Keep up the good work...awed.

I am reading this really interesting thread and thought I'd share someone else's inspirational thoughts with you...

from Pendragon:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I threw myself into healthy ventures of service. I gave freely of myself and found rewarding opportunities to give to others. I changed my outlook on life and realized that FWH's stupidity was actually a wake-up call for me and an opportunity to grow into a more giving person. I learned to talk while smiling. People can "hear" you smile when you talk on the phone, believe it or not! I developed the habit to say cheerful things to everyone I met. I forced myself to look outward. And the attention and positive strokes came back 10-fold, the praise was genuine, and I never felt like I was on the prowl and ready to compromise my integrity by making stupid mistakes myself - though the opportunities were always there. I guess I had never noticed before - but now that FWH was temporarily insane, everything having to do with infidelity seemed to scream back at me - even the comments from men that I never noticed before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also lived what I knew to be true. I took time in quiet moments alone at night to think, to ponder, to dream. I could not live a lie. I would recover, I would remain intact, and I would be better than before. I would not allow the poor choices of others to define who I was. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also knew that I had a responsibility to model lessons I had taught others. Live it, I told myself daily. Sometimes - most days actually in the very beginning - I ended each day in tears and cried out in pain. Other days, I resolved that the next day would be better than the one concluding.

I stuck to a plan. I made each moment count and started to live on the plan. I rediscovered who I was, from the inside out, and steadfastly kept sight of that distant goal.

None of this is easy, TA & friends. None of it. Frankly, its easier to quit. But for me, quitting wouldn't have been the answer.

Why? Because the facts screamed louder than my desire to quit and start over. Infidelity is so common that even beginning anew was no guarantee that the next relationship would fare any better. So what do I do then? Quit again and begin again? and again? and again? Just how many times did I want to go through this???

I resolved that I loved FWH. I had loved him as a child, a teen, a young adult. I had loved him and knew him like none other. If he had a prayer at recovery, he would need someone strong in his corner. And I knew that when the day came, I would have to be strong enough to walk steadfastly with him and learn to forgive.

My FWH is a good man. He's an honorable man. He's everything and more that I believe a man should be. The one thing that I found out in all of this is the one fact that I simply never knew. My FWH is <just> a man. He's human. He makes mistakes - even huge ones that at one time seemed unforgivable. Now I know that is not true.

Is life perfect now? Heck no. I still am dealing with some insecurities and buffetings. But I recognize them for what they are when I take stock at the end of the day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I no longer give thanks for just my blessings. I also give thanks for adversity - because without it, I would be a shallow woman indeed. It has forced me to walk through the refiners fire. As a result, I have great compassion for those who have had to walk on some of the same paths. Its why I give back here on MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't look inward - look outward, TA. Give. Give of yourself and you, too, will see self-doubt flee. Believe in yourself and give. And you will see miracles wrought because you bothered to help another - and realize it is because you have so much to give, too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and from Twyla:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Pendragon was also on the money about her advice about picking herself up and dusting herself off..and I think that is the real secret behind plan A. It's making yourself the best YOU you can be. A true plan A nutures yourself, brings out your strengths, completely seperate from the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

JL and Awed - I need some inspiration and some advice!!!!!

I always wait for my H to make any kind of "move" and then just follow his lead. Over the past week, he's been way more communicative in terms of calling me several time throughout the day to let me know his schedule, what time he'll be home,etc. Do you think he's just doing this to throw me off? I still get the sense he's having his A with her, but I can't be sure.

Tonight we went to a pumpkind carving party at our friends house. He was fairly distant to me in public, but when we got home he started to kiss me and then we ended up in his bed (since we sleep separately). We had this conversation, not really sure it was a conversation but rather his just stating, he could F*** me or I could F*** him, but he couldn't feel anything when we kissed. He's trying, but he can't! And he has trouble if we just lay next to each other (althought he was the one to tell me I had too much clothing on!))) I'm sooooooooo confused!!!

At this moment, I'd love to say get the F*** out of the house if you think your life with her will be better, but I don't think that would really do much good! As you can tell, I'm rather hot right now and I really need someone to give me some great advice!!! If it weren't for the fact it was late, I'd leave myself!!! He isn't the only one who has a place to go.

Help please!!!!

Hope (butnot sure how long it'll last!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hope! Good to hear from you...(you can probably tell I'm a bit of a worrier).

I read elsewhere that JL is always off-line on weekends. He's a good man who has his priorities straight! So I wouldn't expect his input unfortunately.

I say unfortunately because I have only my own experience to offer. In your case, it's been good because we have similar situations. But this one is out of my depth. My H and I did VERY little touching until reconciliation (D-day). Prior to that, he'd gradually starting giving me little pecks on the mouth, careful, non-sexual pecks on the mouth, as he started to really commit himself back to our M, and believe the changes in me were real.

In the absence of JL, I can only offer this: your H is conflicted. Any LB will drive him further away from you.

NO LBs. PERIOD. I think this is safe advice, no matter what the situation.

Here's another: your instincts can be wrong. Don't act on your instincts (unless it is about the A in the first place). And please don't let anger (hurt, withdrawal) be the instinct to drive your reponse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Over the past week, he's been way more communicative in terms of calling me several time throughout the day to let me know his schedule, what time he'll be home,etc. Do you think he's just doing this to throw me off? I still get the sense he's having his A with her, but I can't be sure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He may be trying to throw you off, he may be trying to communicate with you more (is this something you've identified in your C?). He may be responding to you more physically because he's trying to make up his mind, or he may be hungry because he ended the PA with OW.

Doesn't help, does it? It's not intended to. I don't know what is in his mind and I wouldn't suggest you believe anyone who says they do!

Re-read JL's post. Your H is conflicted...that's a good thing. Keep up your end of the good work. That's another good thing. You've got 2 good things going for you in a bad situation.

What else are you doing Hope?

If you do nothing else to feel good then anger/resentment will build, or depression. Neither is good for YOU or your kids or your M.

Re-read KM's post to you...16 months after D-day and her H is just starting to express remorse. This is a long haul (I repeat myself endlessly to you as you should be doing with yourself) so dig in, take a deep breath and prepare to win the war, not the battle.

Yes, he says that crap to you. Yup it's crap. Go read OtG post (I was in the middle of writing a long reply <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> when I saw your name pop up on the board) about whether or not it's true "love". Or don't if it's painful to do so! My point is all WS seem to say some version of this tired old line. Some mean it, some don't.

You will only discover this truth about your H in TIME. His time, not yours. Not fair? Nope. Get over it (as Michelle W-D would advise) and knuckle down.

Hope -- am I too rough on you? I simply want you to mentally prepare. Recovery is hard work. Everyone said so, I didn't believe them and it is ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). My H is being fantastic. And it is still really really hard.

But if you learn your lessons well now, they will sustain you through recovery too. Help you to avoid LBing once he wants to listen to you again. Help you to move beyond the A itself to the issues you need to address long-term. Help you to have fun rather than making a painful experience the reward for all the pain preceding it!

Look...you choose your mentors on these boards. I chose to listen to people like JL for his level-headed advice and insight about men, to Twyla for her wonderful advice about remembering to have FUN, to Takola for her hard take on issues like honesty. They don't know (other than JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) how much they've helped me because I've read so much of what they've written. And ditto for others too numerous to mention...

I am forging my own path and so will you.

You shape that path. You control it. He does not. You do.

End of lecture. Have fun. Please have fun. Or have a smile if fun is not possible. Help someone else out. Share and participate.

Take care of yourself...awed.