My wife and I have been married for 2 years. For, some time, even before we married, she had been struggled with the pain from a relationship she had had before we were engaged and were living in Dallas. Their relationship had been more than a friendship but not a romantic one either. She had ended that relationship when it took a somewhat romantic turn. He was married and she did not want to interfere in that. Because this relationship was at her work it caused serious problems. At some this last year she told me that she wanted to get in contact with him so that she could figure out what had happened then (he had been very cruel). She was very respectful to me and told me that she would not if I objected. She also let me read anything email they exchanged. I agreed. She was in a lot of pain over this, so I agreed enthusiastically. That relationship developed as she was able to understand what had occurred between them (quite complicated to state here). As some months pass she became very private about their exchanges, she said to respect his privacy as he had had trouble with his marriage for a long time. Eventually she ended the relationship because she could see the same cruel patterns in him again (though she still considered him a good person). Communicating with him had a remarkable effect on her, I thought because she was able to put to rest the events of the past and found a good friendship. I should also mention that for about 6 months or so we had been having serious arguments which included questions like weather she should ever had married me or if she could stay in our marriage. Why I did not act at that point to fix what was wrong I do not know. 4 days before my 30th birthday she went to Dallas her sisters baby shower. During this time I was using her computer since mine was misbehaving. It was then that I found an instant messaging log between them. In this log they told each other that they loved each other, she told him that she would be her lover and friend and other more explicit language. I was shocked and angry. I felt like she had been having an affair. Because I knew that she had ended her contact with him I did not act right away, although my first instinct was to call her and tell her not to come back from Dallas. For this same reason I considered not even telling her. It did not seem worth risking her wrath over violating her privacy if the relationship was over. A day later, when we talked over the phone she could tell I was upset, so I decided to tell her. She was in shock as was I. She was very angry that I had found the log, she felt her privacy intruded upon and also she was angry that I had gotten hurt over something that had ended. I will note that she did not end the relationship with him because of me. We talked over the phone for a long time and I was being very understanding of her. On an intellectual level I knew that this happened because she was unhappy in our marriage. Even then I knew that I was not meeting her needs at all. Because I knew that there was no malice in her actions it was easy to be forgiving… until I picked her up at the airport. The more we talked then the more betrayed I felt. It was sinking in that she really did have an affair (sex or not). I had been replaced in her life for months by a relationship that I had approved an encouraged because of my trust and compassion for her. Talking with her has been difficult. She suffered from depression in the past and probably still does though to a lesser degree. Though she has been prescribed mild antidepressants she functions well without them, unless we argue. She is given to go into a rage of anger at times. Though both the frequency and severity of these have diminished they still occur especially during emotional arguments. She is not violent in her actions, but she is in her words. Unfortunately my frustrations have given way to my own yelling and hitting walls. Sometimes I feel that she only takes my feelings into account when my emotions trump hers, as if she could not understand my emotions unless they are powerfully evident. I asked her to read an e-book I say at www.aftertheaffair.net earlier because she could not seem to relate to my emotions. She promised to read as soon as she could. In the 4 days since I found out, my emotions have gone from shock to rage and depression to a kind of numbness again. A couple of days ago we had a wonderful evening I felt almost intoxicated as we discussed politics (her favorite topic). That night we had sex. Although it was somewhat difficult it was still a good thing. The next day I felt strange, I felt like we had gotten high on something that helped us forget about this for a short time. I also felt like I could not come back down to the emotions that I had been feeling earlier (sadness, anger, betrayal). Because the material I asked her to read was specifically for the offending spouse I decided to look for some resource that could help me sort out my feelings. That is when I marriagebuilders.com. It has provided me with a wealth of information regarding not only this affair but also many of the problems that I have seen in our marriage and the fears that she has about marriage in general. I am confused about how I should feel. My wife is a fiercely independent person. She guards her privacy and need for her own identity and space. Since we moved to Colorado she has had little to nothing of her own which depresses her greatly. Sometimes I feel like she would like us to live completely separate lives. She is passionate about accomplishing big things in her life and is resentful that I do not share the same high ambitions. She gave up her career when we came to Colorado and cannot find a way to thrive here or with me. She has called me an anchor keeping her down. She is resentful of my affection and need for affection to the point of calling me codependent. She sometimes wonders if she is really made for marriage. She has at times expressed the desire for someone who would help her get on her feet and then let her fly on her own. She has expressed the desire to seek her career again without me. Discovering marriage builders has restored some hope to me that this marriage may last after all. I am frightened of intimate moments like the one 2 days ago. It has been quick fix intimate moments that have led me to forget about the very real problems in our marriage in the past. Today is my birthday. I have been out of the house because I know she is trying to prepare something nice for me. At first I had been reluctant to accept anything from her because I was angry, now I want to give her the chance to be loving, but part of me knows that as nice as she is trying to be I need more from her than just this. I am very in love with her but I do not want to fall into pretending that nothing happened. I can’t let myself fall into my usual forgiving self. Especially when she still expresses how good the relationship with him was for her. Although I have found a wealth of information I am confused on how to proceed. My wife has grown to despise counselors and therapists. In the past she has felt judged and demeaned by therapists. She has expressed a fear (and anger) of a marriage counselor putting her a scarlet letter on her chest and of trying to fit her into a wife role she does not think she can fit in. Given the overwhelming events I am confused. I've posted so much detail because I don't seem to have anyone I can trust around me. Everyone I know is also a friend of my wife, I do not want to embarras her or myself.

jgnc- Good. You found this site in time. You will be able to avoid lots of mistakes and get good advice. To me it sounds like you have a fairly good marriage, and for a man you sound very understanding. Oops, my bias is showing here. In my opinion wife seems like she has lost herself when moving to Colorado. She is looking for something to fill the void, to feel good about herself. Keep posting here, and keep reading. There are many smart people who can help you save your marriage. Hugs to you from California.

I am wondering now if I am being too giving. When I gave her the e-book to read she said she would but asked a condition of me. She wanted me to understand that she had emotional needs that were not being met and to work to do something about it. I do understand and will do something about it so I agreed. But for the months that this was going on my needs were completely ignored. Now what I am getting from her is her belief of incompatibility. She does not think she is capable of meeting my needs or ever met the requirements of marriage. She demands privacy and time to herself and becomes angry at the thought of having to give those up to help our marriage. My instinct is to try to placate her, to try and let her have some of that so long as she will answer my questions, but that need to keep private thoughts and time is making me feel like an intruder into my wife’s life. I tried to get her to understand that keeping those thoughts from me, especially those that I can tell are painful to her may lead to damaging events for the both of us. I don’t know if I got through. I’m trying to get her to visit this site. I really don’t know what she is willing to do to help us. I think that right now she is sort of working with me out of a feeling of obligation or guilt. She expresses that since she is in the “doghouse” now she has to go to do what I ask of her. The bitterness with which she says this is really hurting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was then that I found an instant messaging log between them. In this log they told each other that they loved each other, she told him that she would be her lover and friend and other more explicit language. I was shocked and angry. I felt like she had been having an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She had/has. This is an Emotional Affair (EA) and it can be just as harmful to your marriage as a Physical Affair (PA).

Dr. Harley:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding? ... When a couple spend their leisure-time away from each other, it is not only a breeding ground for an affair, but it can also be another clue to an affair. That's especially true when a spouse doesn't want the other to be present at their favorite activity...Anything that takes one spouse away from the other overnight is an invitation for an affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to watch your LBs. I have a thread out here about them, please check it out. These are just pushing your W further away. Also, buy a copy of Surviving an Affair immediately, and get a professional PRO-marriage marriage counselor or coach involved ASAP.

Why Women Leave Men

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am wondering now if I am being too giving. When I gave her the e-book to read she said she would but asked a condition of me. She wanted me to understand that she had emotional needs that were not being met and to work to do something about it. I do understand and will do something about it so I agreed. But for the months that this was going on my needs were completely ignored. Now what I am getting from her is her belief of incompatibility. She does not think she is capable of meeting my needs or ever met the requirements of marriage. She demands privacy and time to herself and becomes angry at the thought of having to give those up to help our marriage. My instinct is to try to placate her, to try and let her have some of that so long as she will answer my questions, but that need to keep private thoughts and time is making me feel like an intruder into my wife&#8217;s life. I tried to get her to understand that keeping those thoughts from me, especially those that I can tell are painful to her may lead to damaging events for the both of us. I don&#8217;t know if I got through. I&#8217;m trying to get her to visit this site. I really don&#8217;t know what she is willing to do to help us. I think that right now she is sort of working with me out of a feeling of obligation or guilt. She expresses that since she is in the &#8220;doghouse&#8221; now she has to go to do what I ask of her. The bitterness with which she says this is really hurting. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your W is in withdrawal, the fog (an Affair is an addiction that makes 'em think funny and spout utter nonsense as if it were verifiable fact), and you are going to have to be the one to step up here and show her that you can meet her ENs, at least at first. This is especially true if you go around having Angry Outbursts, as you are just reducing her love for you even more and pushing her further into withdrawal.

More Dr. H:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault?

There is a sense in which an apology is not really necessary. The only thing that's necessary is for the couple to take appropriate steps to rebuild their relationship. But an apology can certainly make taking those steps much easier.

S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it (if you don't know what a "Taker" is, be sure to read "The Giver and the Taker" in my Basic Concepts). Her Taker is only concerned about her happiness, and not the least bit concerned about S.C.'s happiness. It was her Taker that was doing the talking for her, telling S.C. that he had it coming, after what he had put her through with all of his drinking.

Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others. It was S.C.'s Taker that wanted an apology from his wife. It remembered that S.C.'s Giver had once told his wife he was sorry for his neglect of her while he was drinking, and now it was time for his wife to apologize for her offense. But at this point in their relationship, neither of their Givers are anywhere to be found, so there is little hope for repentance.

But now that the affair is over, does it do S.C. any good to try to pry an apology out of his wife? At this point, her feelings for S.C. are not the best, and any effort on his part to try to make her feel guilty will do nothing but withdraw more love units from an already bankrupt Love Bank. His best approach is to ignore the past, and focus on what he can do to start depositing love units. The more love units he deposits, the more her Taker will drop back and allow her Giver some room to maneuver. In fact, if her Giver shows up, she may surprise S.C. with an apology for the affair without him even asking for one.

S.C.'s best course of action is to create the best marriage possible by learning how to meet his wife's emotional needs, overcome Love Busters and create a unified lifestyle where neither of them would have second secret lives that can grow into affairs.

But in spite of what I've just said, I encourage each spouse, if possible, to override their Takers' instincts and apologize to the other anyway. The unfaithful spouse should apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust, for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. The victimized spouse should also apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that the unfaithful spouse had been promised at the time of marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

while others who have posted would like to stress only the single aspect of the relationship, that being the marriage and how you should be working on it, i don't think that you can solve that problem while ignoring your Ws deep rooted feelings and fundamnetal issues concerning what and who you are.

i mean if she has totally different *life goals* and values and feels that you cannot be part of the life plan she would like to have for herself...your marriage is in a really bad place.

further if she feels that you are an impediment to her achieving those goals....then your problem is a lot deeper then her having an EA...(by the way...how sure are you that it was strictly an EA?..she was in Dallas with out you after all.) this now becomes a more fundimental problem...it's about who and what you are.

it seems to me that for this relationship to survive...just as you must come to terms with the fact that she has ambitions for her life that you don't share...she must also aknowledge that you have a right not to have her ambitions and that this does not make you any less a successful person in the end then her.

she has no right to assert or atribute to you her values, and emand that you live up to them...anymore then you have a right to ask her to be less then what she wants to be.

is there room for compromise on this issue? does she even want to compromise on it? do you?

it's sad to say but i think we all must at some point understand, that love is not always enough.

coach

coach

Takola, thank you for your reply. After the one outburst I've had since I found out I sat for a while and though about how her outbursts made me feel, I imediately apologized for my behavior. I reread what I posted earlier and I can see that I have been making demands of her to validate my feelings and from her responses I can tell it is making it more difficult for her to want to work with me.

Coach, you are hitting at the heart of what is scaring me the most.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
while others who have posted would like to stress only the single aspect of the relationship, that being the marriage and how you should be working on it, i don't think that you can solve that problem while ignoring your Ws deep rooted feelings and fundamnetal issues concerning what and who you are.

i mean if she has totally different *life goals* and values and feels that you cannot be part of the life plan she would like to have for herself...your marriage is in a really bad place.

further if she feels that you are an impediment to her achieving those goals....then your problem is a lot deeper then her having an EA...(by the way...how sure are you that it was strictly an EA?..she was in Dallas with out you after all.) this now becomes a more fundimental problem...it's about who and what you are.

it seems to me that for this relationship to survive...just as you must come to terms with the fact that she has ambitions for her life that you don't share...she must also aknowledge that you have a right not to have her ambitions and that this does not make you any less a successful person in the end then her.

she has no right to assert or atribute to you her values, and emand that you live up to them...anymore then you have a right to ask her to be less then what she wants to be.

is there room for compromise on this issue? does she even want to compromise on it? do you?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">first I am certain there was no PA. She had ended the relationship before she went down and she was w/ family 100% of the time, yes I am sure.

It is clear that we have different values regarding achivements in life. I also know that she does not believe that we can meet each others needs. She thinks they are too different. She seems to place her needs in a completely different priority order than I do.

I sincerely believe that there is room for compromise, I do not know if she wants to compromise, but I do know she does not believe it is possible. I could never ask her to be any less than what she wants to be. period. I do not understand how I could and still claim to love her. She has on several occasions said that there is nothing wrong with how I am and that it does not make me any less of a person. She just believes that the differences are too great to overcome and that our needs are too different. I don't see how I bring her down. I have always encouraged her to succeed.

except once. This is a big thing. At one point she recieved a mailing from a prestigious school in another state. I was not supportive of her applying there because of the distance and expense. Honestly I was shocked that she would want to be separated to pursue school when alernatives existed locally. However to her it was a huge betrayal. I think that at that point she understood that being married would always hold her back in some way. This is especially significant since her father did a similar thing to her when she was deciding on where to go to school.