The following is a post I originally put on the EN board a few months ago. I see some questions out here regarding LBs, and also some members a bit confused as to how to avoid them (or even if they should), so I've decided to post it on this board for the different audience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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I often quote sources out here. I really don't see the point in trying to say it better when the source has put it so eloquently. The following is a quote from "Boundaries" by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you respond to what someone says or does, you remain in control, with options and choices. But when you react to what someone says or does, you may have a problem with boundries. If someone is able to cause havoc by doing or saying something, that person is in control of you, and your boundries are lost. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(emphasis added by me)

I haven't posted much recently. I have been around, and I have read. I see a lot of questions like, "Why not LB?", justification for LBs "After what he/she did, who can blame me?", and advice to members to LB. (If you advocate less than 100% total honesty, you are advocating an LB - dishonesty.)

What are LBs really?

1.) LBs are reactionary. You are REACTING, not responding; therefore, your spouse is in control of you and you are not.

2.) LBs are either an attempt to control your spouse's actions (SD,DJ,AO,Dishonesty), or a deliberate attempt to hurt. Think about it, can you think of an LB, besides an annoying habit, that falls outside of these categories? Can you logically support that case? I haven't been able to come up with one. Does anything give you the right to do this to your spouse, even their LBs? Does someone stealing $10 from you give you the right to steal money from them? Does the fact that your spouse is also in the wrong make your actions any more right?

3.) LBs are a dysfunctional method. That's right. LBs are your Taker's methods. A really good reason to not LB is that they do not work. I have yet to meet someone who has been convinced in their own mind of someone else's position because they were threatened, insulted, or forced. LBs, at best, get you compliance, which is far far different than agreement. Compliance begets resentment. I have yet to see a marriage that would really be much much better if only a little more resentment were introduced.

4.) LBs are exactly that: Love Busters. They destroy romantic love. I can't be the only person out here who has personally experienced a loss of the feeling of love due to LBs. I, also, have yet to see a marriage that would really improve if only there were less love between the spouses. (I also have yet to see a marriage on these boards that can afford to casually toss Love Units out the window.)

5.) LBs are also CBs - Communication Busters. As soon as you issue an LB, communication stops, if it hasn't already. Communication is more than speaking and hearing. Hearing is passive; listening is active. Communication (trust me, used to major in this - I can bore you stupid with this subject) is the act of one party speaking, the other party listening, the other party responding, and the original speaker listening. If you aren't listening, you don't have two people communicating - you have two people talking. Listening stops when people are insulted, hurt, angry, or defensive. Issue an LB and you are sure to create at least ONE of these conditions. Your spouse is then not listening to you. Whatever you are trying to achieve, whatever point you were trying to make, is now not absorbed. It is completely rejected by your spouse. If you want to communicate, you have to avoid LBs.

These are, I guess, the major points I wanted to make. I'm done with my little, or not-so-little, lecture.

So, I challenge you to answer the question (at least to yourselves), MBers. Who exactly is in control of you?

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Thank you for posting this! It is very helpful and definitely helps to see things from a different perspective.

Takola, Thanks I totally agree with the facts in your post that LBs are dysfunctional. I don't really get the idea of boundries. I've seen it referenced in a few other posts realting to the cause of an affair beyond unmet emotional needs. Can you give me any insight. Thanks

What specific question do you have in regards to boundaries? Give me an example. I have a post on EN about boundaries, so I will include it here. It's not about sex, so it isn't getting many replies over on EN. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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I noticed I am about to post my 4000th post on MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I guess I could have just left it at this and talked about how I am a hopeless MB addict...or about how MB has helped me...or I could have ignored it entirely.

I decided not to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've been threatening for months to post about Boundaries VS. Selfish Demands - so, here it is! My 4000th post:

I've noticed out here that many people (yes, LE, jenigirl, losing_hope...I'm bringing you out of the closet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) have problems with boundaries. It has many forms and various degrees...but it's the same thing. I had this problem, and I sometimes still do. I'm going to talk about me in this, but I've seen the pattern out here.

What does the lack of boundaries do for us? It helps destroy our marriages. So, that's why I'm posting. There doesn't seem to be a boundaries board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I let people walk all over my boundaries. I put them up, people cross them, so I backed them up a bit and told people not to cross the new one, or I pretended that they hadn't. This showed people (not only my spouse) that my boundaries were not real and that they didn't have to respect them. So, the boundary crossing continued and continued. I had an overzealous giver that made excuses 'that was just a small thing', 'that's just jealousy', 'I am overly sensitive', etc....all to disguise my boundary problem.

There is just a 'small' hitch here. Your overzealous Giver will not be in control forever. The Taker cannot stand this - and for good reason. Your Taker is there to protect you, and your Giver is handing out free tickets to cause you pain. When this goes on, your Taker will rear it's head, and will begin to use it's methods.

For some people, the first clue that they'd crossed my boundaries was when I told them to do something very painful to themselves - such as shoving things in various orifices or calling them something particularly unflattering. I'd let it go until I was so hurt and angry I just LBed.

I see many people out here incorrectly label a boundary as a Selfish Demand. I see people out here (more often) label a Selfish Demand as a boundary. What is the difference between the two?

The main difference I have noticed is: boundaries are about what you will or will not do, while selfish demands are about what others (aka your spouse) will or will not do. The selfish demand usually GIVES the solution to the other person.

Boundary: "I will not be primarily responsible for the household chores."

Selfish Demand: "You can either take the trash out on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday or take it out on Tuesday and Thursday."

Boundary: "I will not stay in a sexless marriage."

Selfish Demand: "You must have sex with me 3x per week."

When you encounter a boundary, you must, of course, POJA a solution. That does not mean that you should negotiate whether or not the boundary is there. You should negotiate how to do things while respecting the boundary.

Now, obviously, we have those that try to disguise their abusive, controlling, or selfish wants/demands in the form of a boundary. It is not a boundary to say, &#8220;I will not live with someone who doesn&#8217;t bring me roses 5x a week.&#8221; Simply rephrasing your Selfish Demand in the first person tense does not make it a boundary. This is not a foolproof, scientific formula. It is a guideline to help you understand that boundaries are good for you, they are not selfish demands, and that you need to learn to lovingly and calmly enforce them.

Otherwise, you are not protecting your marriage &#8211; or yourself.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

I really needed this post today. I LB very easily and I know my boundaries are non-existant. I kept thinking boundaries were about not letting WS do something to me, but now I understand it's what I will or won't do. I am in control of this situation. Thank you for the clarification!

Thanks. Maybe if I go over to EN and rename the thread "BDSM in a moving car", people will read? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Takola:

"Thanks. Maybe if I go over to EN and rename the thread "BDSM in a moving car", people will read?"

Hm... ...ol' 2long's dense in his ol' age... Could that stand for something like "Bonner Durchmusterung Star Map" or something?

And you'd have 2 be as nutty as I am 2 know that...

Have a good weekend everybody!
-2long

One of the first modern star maps? I took Astronomy in college...

Yep, that'd be the one!

I 2k Astronomy, 2, but I do something else professionally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a good weekend,
-2long

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