my access to the internet makes it easy for me to get involved again. It is so tempting.

Nikol,

I think the Harley's might just be what you need. They are well trained, but they view things from a behavioral point of view. My guess is that they could also offer referals if your particular problem requires IC. They are not cheap but the phone counseling is actually pretty convenient.

All reports of dealing with either Steve or Jen (the son and daughter of Dr. Harley) are very enthusiastic. Something to consider.

You are clearly looking to fill some hole in your soul. You clearly have found or should have realized that none of those A's did that for you, and you simply risked your marriage, your health/life, and that of your H via disease. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please do seek some help. When/if your H comes back, let us know. We will do our best to help you address those issues.

God Bless,

JL

Yeah I know the internet doesnt help. My H chats all the time and sometimes I used that to try and justify the cheating, but thats not right either. He also looks at swinging websites and wants to do that again, but I think thats why we are where we are! I am rambling, Sorry

Ladies,

There are a few articles I think you need to read here. One is the Four rules for a marriage. The next is about the concept of "radical honesty", and the final one is about the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA.

Why do you need to read them. I am suspecting that if you had followed the concept of radical honesty, neither of you would be in this situation. It forces you to face yourself and your spouse and allows your spouse a "heads up" before things go too far.

The POJA is a negotiating strategy to use with your spouse.

Why am I mentioning this now, when you two are not in recovery?? Well, you will need this information before you get there and fore warned is fore armed.

If you want your marriages, you will have to fight for them, and that means KNOWING what to do, and what is going on.

Both of you have revealed that before and during your marriages there were problems, and you both realize you have issues. Let your H's know what you see, what you fear, and what you want. Then listen to them, answer their questions HONESTLY, do not try to PROTECT them from the pain, or things will be more painful.

The biggest fear both of them have is not about the physical aspect of your relationships but TRUST. Nikol, obviously if swinging is in the past of your marriage, the sex itself is not the issue, it is the lies and the lack of openness. Repeat, I am sure your H knows you have had sex with men before him, and he knows you have in the marriage, what will just tear him up is that you went elsewhere to have your needs met, AND your lied to him.

It will be the lies that really gets to them ladies, so read about the concept of "radical honesty".

God Bless,

JL

i am just curious nikol about your husband and why you would think he may harm himself...has he tried to before? or did he voice this to you when he discovered the affair(s)? does he not have a job if he does show up there or any place that he hangs out...i dont know just some ideas

JL, let me add something to what you have suggested. Everything you say about the Harleys is true, both the books and as counselors. They are great. I would put Penny Tupy at SaveYourMarriageCentral.com in the same category, too - she hasn't written any books, but uses Harley's. Harley's books, particularly "Surviving an Affair" seem to me to take the point of view that the "main" cause of affairs is unmet emotional needs. Reading that book, and taking the associated questionnaires can be an eye-opening experience, and incredibly helpful (including some great help in getting to the point where you have a great marriage), but we have some history here that suggests that unmet emotional needs are not the whole story. So, yes, they should read that, but that will probably be just a start. Good counseling is essential.

Beyond that, there are a couple of other good books that help get at the other reasons beyond unmet emotinal needs. The best, IMO, is Torn Asunder, by Carder. For Nikol's husband, I recommend "The Sexual Man", by Hart - it might give him an inkling of how the 3-somes have contributed to her behavior.

Lastly, I disagree that "the lies are the big thing, but the sex with other men is OK" idea. The lies ARE a big thing, probably the biggest thing, but the sex with other men (or women)introdues some dynamics in the realtionship that may not be acknowledged, but are terribly destructive, just the same. If you close your eyes before the baseball bat hits you in the face, the damage is gonna be about the same, and believing your head is harder than the bat is not gonna matter either.

<small>[ October 09, 2003, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

John,

I didn't mean to imply that sex with other men was OK, I meant that in my observations the thing a betrayed spouse has the hardest thing getting over is the lies. I also agree that Cerri would be a very good option. I have posted to her for years now, and remember when she first came here.

God Bless,

JL

Nikol have you considered that you may be suffering from sexual addiction?

great advice given is worthless unless the intended goal is achieved. my point? take action! make a qualified effort to make changes in your lives and your marriages.

and don't wait for tomorrow...or another day or because there is something else that needs doing! given the data you two have provided, nothing else in your lives can work until you get yourselves straitend out.

one last thought...YES there is a difference between MC and IC and yes at time an individuale therapist may advize individuale acts that might not be best for the marriage...but i have to take exception with the concept of fixing the unit with out first fixing the individuales of which the unit is comprised.

i just don't see how a realtionship can ever really work when one of the parts is totally broken. maybe i'm wrong but i don't think so.

coach