I had posted yesterday with my story under the header "I (think) I know about her---how to discuss?"

I am possibly still in denial since things seem to be much better between us over the last 4 weeks. We are making love again, speaking a little about us and alot about the future of us, trading love notes and other romantic presents since we just passed our anniversary last week. We are snuggling quite a bit, hugging, kissing, holding hands, saying I love you, making dinner dates,etc. My wife travels alot and will be leaving town again soon for a few trips over the next few weeks. I know the OM will be at one of these meetings. The suspicion is killing me but I do not seem to have the courage to confront her. I am making an appointment with a MC to discuss.

I feel if I confront her she will react as if I have invaded her privacy and become extremely upset which will probably spoil the current romantic situation we are in. I sincerely doubt she will admit to anything.

The evidence is as follows:

* Numerous cell phone calls to out of state co-worker since February--no noticeable calls to this person prior to that time although she did change jobs and this may have led to increased business relationship with him(she would have to speak to this person for business but not sure how much)
* She appears to have met this person in NYC for a business meeting (I found an email itinerary)
* Several months of discussion with her about our situation where she did not indicate there was much hope for the relationship and always ended with "I need more time" or "I don't know"
* I found blank divorce papers and a few romantic notes/cards from him to her. She still has these documents.
* Earlier in the year she lost some weight and began reading Glamour/Cosmopolitan and started dressing up more

I have not found anything from her to him indicating her feelings or thoughts. This is my dilemma. If I did, I would positively 100% KNOW and confront her with the information.

Is/was there an A? Did she end it? Is she still contacting him and is it simply for business? The next cell bill should be out in about 10 days for my review.

Any advice would be appreciated. John39 indicated to call the OMW. Not sure if I can do this yet without more evidence.

Nature - that's a lot of evidence! You have to go with your gut instinct also and it seems likes yours is telling you that your W is involved in an A.

I saw John39's reply to your post and think he is right on.

Hopefully some others will respond to this post so you can gain additional information and support.

You came to the right place!

Take care.

sss

Maybe. She could be ending it, maybe not. Are you able to meet her needs. Does she trust that you will be there for her even though she messed up. Did she explain what she was missing in her life to you (could just be MLC even in women). Don't exp;ode, don't LB. Sit her down and talk quietly, warmly and not aggressively. Tell her how you feel about her. Tell her that you are worried about contact and why. Try to get her to look at the MB stuff. Just my opinion, but it needs to be out in the open, it just isn't going to go away by itself if it is still on going. These affairs do die a natural death, but you are going to have to be Mr Wonderful in the need meeting dept. She may be afraid to give him up for fear you will leave her too. I'm just not sure what I would do if I were you, I'm a female BS.

My wife's affair with a colleque who lived in a different city, but with whom she frequently worked at client sites, started and stopped a few times. She may have stopped, and intend not to re-start, but until she is honest with you, the chances are much better that the affair will re-kindle, even if dead, than they are that it will stay dead. And that is assuming that the affair is over in her mind - which is not certain. My wife also made efforts at improving our relationship during the course of her A.

The notes you found inicate he is -AT LEAST- involved in an emotional affair with her. His wife will probably be very upset by this, because for most women it is the emotional connection that develops with an affair partner that is the most painful thing - so even if it is the ONLY thing, she will take it seriously. It was partly the fact that I did not realize the seriousness of my wife's emotional attachments to a couple of her male collegues that contributed to her eventual physical affair. The lesson from that is that women are right, the emotional attachment IS serious, and men like me who ignore or over-look it are being foolish. You should include copies of those notes in any correspondence with his wife.

So, I re-iterate you must tell his wife. You also must confront your wife. Getting their affair to end by getting his wife to confront him is the cowards way out. The MOST IMPORTANT thing I have had to learn to have a good marriage is how to resolve conflict. Conflict is the doorway to intimacy, if handled correctly. Avoiding conflict caused our marriage to deteriorate, eliminated any chance of us addressing the problems that opened the door to my wife's affair, eliminated the possiblity of me contributing to the affair's demise years before it actually ended, thereby eliminating the possibility of limiiting the damage done, and would have, had we not changed our behavior, eliminated any possibility of getting to the good stage of recovery we are now at. Harley, Gottman, and Smalley are the best authors I have read on the subject of working out conflicts constructively. But conflict avoidance kills intimacy, which kills marriages.

key logger software on her computer...an inexpensive telephone bugging/recorder device from radion shack for your home telephone. these might get you the data you want...

but here's a novel thought...people that love each other don't have relationships with others that give us cause for concern. in other words, it doesn't really matter if she's having an affair with the OM. if ther relationship makes you unhappy then she should give it up. and if she won't...well that's a kind of answer in itself, isn't it?

coach

Nature,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel if I confront her she will react as if I have invaded her privacy and become extremely upset which will probably spoil the current romantic situation we are in. I sincerely doubt she will admit to anything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you get married, you become "one flesh". The way I see it, "privacy" is a privilege you grant to your spouse because you trust them. It sounds like you have every right to ask her about what's going on. Don't worry about the invasion of "privacy" - it's yours to invade!!!

I was VERY romantic with my wife while I was having my affair. It's what I had to do to keep her radar down. You know she's having an affair.

So now, you gotta ask yourself if you're willing to share her with this other guy or any future paramours. If you're ok with that, then continue to revel in the crumbs she's tossing you. But I don't think this is what you want.

This not a court of law. You don't need solid proof to express your concerns to your wife. If you're convinced there's something funky going on, she should help you understand what it is.

Low

Well, we spoke on Saturday morning. She finally admitted to having an EA with this out of state co-worker---the only thing physical she says was that HE kissed her back in June. This was after she denied anything was going on for several minutes until I brought up his name to her. I questioned her on other work trips and whether they slept together and she flatly denied anything more physical has happened. She admitted after some hard questions that "I guess I am attached to you and he emotionally but I am with you physically". I did not clarify whether she was attracted to him or not but am assuming so.

I told her a few things have to happen. She needs to end this A and we need to get counseling. She indicated she is sorry and never meant to hurt me. She seemed to indicate it will end but never responded with alot of information as to how it will, when, etc. There has been a million cell calls to him in the past. She said "I don't know" about counseling which is better than 4 weeks ago when she was saying no to that. I told her I would speak with her again very soon to follow up. We agreed things have been better, she is trying to recapture how we used to be and never meant to hurt me. I told her she has violated the most sacred trust a man and woman could have and we can begin anew after she ends this A and we begin to rebuild our marriage from the ground floor up. We need to understand what led her to do this so it will not happen again. I told her I want an A-proof marriage so this will not happen to EITHER of us.

She left town this morning and is gone the rest of this week. Plan A is in effect (I had really been doing this for the last 4-5 weeks). Things seemed to have been better between us, she says she is trying but questions what she really wants to do for us. She enjoys her job tremendously, likes to travel and she says I make her feel guilty when she leaves. She mentioned she wasn't sure what she really wanted to do and is confused. She says she has thought about the possiblity of maybe separating for awhile but isn't really sure if this the right thing to do because she is trying to make this work and does love me. This is like a mid-life crisis.

She will be seeing the OM in a few weeks at another work meeting. This is the hard part, how to know if she has really ended it. Should I send the evidence to the OM W? I guess I should, please shed any other ideas. My W and I should be speaking on the phone later today, should I quiz her today (have you spoken to him, what are your plans to end it, etc.) or wait to her return?

Thanks for all of the help.

Things seemed to have been better between us, she says she is trying but questions what she really wants to do for us.

That means stay in plan A. Meet her needs, send her notes, talk to her on the phone. Talk about things she is interrested in, don't talk about you - unless she askes. Get to know her all over again. Conversation is important to her - hence all the calls to OM. Take his place at the other end of the line.

She enjoys her job tremendously, likes to travel and she says I make her feel guilty when she leaves.

One of the ideas to get across is that your relationship is more important than either one of your jobs. If there was a way to guarentee that she would not stray while she traveled, then it would be great, but it looks like you have reason to worry. Does she want to help you with that? She should - if she cares about your feelings. You feel guilty about wanting her to quit - but what is likely to happen if she continues?

She mentioned she wasn't sure what she really wanted to do and is confused. She says she has thought about the possiblity of maybe separating for awhile but isn't really sure if this the right thing to do because she is trying to make this work and does love me. This is like a mid-life crisis.

Natural for this un-natural situation. Get her to stay if possible. Separation usually makes it worse, because you can't meet her needs. Ask for time to show it CAN work. It will most likely take 6 months to a year - ask for that much or more.

She will be seeing the OM in a few weeks at another work meeting. This is the hard part, how to know if she has really ended it. Should I send the evidence to the OM W? I guess I should, please shed any other ideas.

Yes, send it to OM's wife!! Also ask your W to find some way to miss that meeting. Don't beg or plead - just tell her that you want to make things work and that would do wonders for your ability to trust her. If not, offer to go with her, and stay in the Motel with her and take her out for dinner to make it safe for her to be there. Ask her: The thoughts of you being there with him again now are really hard to take. Is there any way you could miss this meeting, or could I go there with you (I assume it is away from where you live) and spend the evenings with you? See how she reacts, it will tell you much about her feelings. Don't get angry with her if she resists.

My W and I should be speaking on the phone later today, should I quiz her today (have you spoken to him, what are your plans to end it, etc.) or wait to her return?

"With what's been going on, I worry about you now when you travel. If you could keep me informed about any contact you have with him, that would help me be able to deal with my feelings. Has he contacted you, or have you contacted him while on this trip?"

Ask these things in non confrontational ways.

" I am only asking because I love you and want our marriage to succeed. I believe continued contact with him will damage our relationship, so I am asking."

I would wait until she returns before discussing plans to end it. If she will read it, get "Surving an Affair" from this site and read it, and let her read it. I am not sure where you are on understanding the materials from this site, but there is a great deal of study you can do to help your marriage succeed. Have you read HNHN yet?

When you notify OM's wife, tell her there is a very good chance she can save her M if she will not LB, and if she will meet his needs as she confronts. Refer her to this site, and tell her about the books too. Tell her you are trying to save your marriage, and encourage her to do the same.

Wishing you luck, and praying for you.

SS

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I am so bummed out.

After speaking with my wife last Saturday, she seemed to be generally sorry but was not very remorseful. I won't rehash all that was said (see above) but we had a good weekend together and I felt there was some hope.

However, she left on Monday for her next business trip and I found out later that day that the OM (who works for the same company) had also checked in at her hotel. There were other company employees there also and he very well may have had reason to be there for business.....but WHY would she not have told me that over the weeekend?
Well, I spoke to her on the phone that evening and asked politely "Have you spoken to him today"...long pause on the phone, "No". I asked her again, please tell me the truth..."No". I then said what were her plans on ending the A and she said she will end it, consider it over, what else do you want me to say, etc. I told her I need immediate closure to this and need to be involved. She said she will not be giving a blow by blow detail. I then also asked is there any reason for him to have checked in at her hotel and she said she didn't know, there were lots of people from her company checked in there. Geez, talk about lying!!!! Of course, she now says we are both to blame for this, I have been dishonest to her, starts crying, you no longer love me, I thought we could get thru this on Sunday but now I don't know, etc. The fog? I guess so.

So, I still was hoping (or just maybe denying) the fact that they had slept together after she flatly denied it 3 times over the weekend. However, a buddy let me know the bad news last night....apparently there were several out of town business trips when they met (I knew of a few times they were together) and had sex. I am truly crushed and feel it's over between us. Unless there is a complete about face in her attitude. I have a lawyer lined up already.

This week, she has been calling me 2-3 times a day and I had been sending her little love quote emails, telling her I love her, we need to persevere, etc. We just returned from a long weekend which was great. Maybe she has truly ended this? How can I believe or trust her? She returns this evening and we are on the precipice of completly falling apart. I cannot continue with someone who has been unfaithful and does not appear to want to change.

So, in a non-confrontational way, how do I get her to open up? I need to know EVERYTHING to truly re-establish an honest, open relationship to hopefully re-establish trust. I cannot have her lying to me, disrepecting me, and not being honest about what happened.

I have not told the OMW since I have been trying to get my plan together as well as see what she tells me about ending it. Unfortunately, there will be other business trips in other states that both of them will need to attend. I will not be able to go with her since I work full time with my job.

I am hopeful but doubtful for us. Any comments are truly appreciated.

Can you both financially survive if your W quit her job? If so then she must resign immediately because any further contact with the OM will be an obstacle to marital recovery. If you two are dependent on her income, then she should ask to be transferred to another department or another district away from the OM. This is not my layman opinion but that of Dr Willard Harley himself, so please take this bit of advice very seriously. If she is unwilling to take the necessary steps that will end all contact with the OM it is probably because she is still involved with him. Do be honest with her and let her know that you don't how long your love for her can last and that once you lose all of your love that it will be too late to do anything to save the marriage.

Her job means an incredible amount to her, she would not resign...but there may be an option to take another position out of state which we have talked about on occassion.

It would not be financially viable for us if she quit..but interesting thought.

I will just lay it out that I cannot continue with this much longer unless there is a total change in her attitude towards the marriage.

Hello,

I believe it is absolutely essential that you contact the OM's wife. If you do not do this then you are in fact enabling the affair to continue.
The Harley's believe that by exposing the affair to the light of day the fantasy falls apart and the affair is made much more difficult to continue.
In addition, your wife was lying to you about not being sexual with this OM and finally it was confirmed later by your friend. Don't you feel the OM's wife has a right to know like you?
Finally, your wife needs to be checked out if you decide to be intimate with her. You need to make it clear that you are aware of the sexual nature of her affair now and that the lying must stop and remorse should be shown. Marriage counseling is a must. Again the OM's wife should be informed as soon as possible. I am sorry for your pain.

Tell the OMW it will cause something to happen. I did it and instead of an EA the OM tried to change the ground rules thus putting doubts in W mind and I think I have another chance.

Nature-

You're receiving good advice and I concur that it's especially important to let the OM's W know about the A. Getting the truth out there often helps bring about a quicker end to the A as the scrutiny is very difficult for them to deal with.

I also wanted to caution you to follow the plans layed out here (Plan A/B) completely, without any shortcuts. Does it guarantee that you'll be able to work things out? No, but it definitely increases your odds. You mentioned something about a Plan A but you also said you have a lawyer lined up? What about Plan B and the letter? Are you up for it?

<small>[ October 20, 2003, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>