Hey Everyone,
Unfortunately, I am new to this discussion forum and have never done something like this before so bear with me.
I found out a week ago that my wife of 1 year (together 5) slept with an ex while visiting her family. She said she had no intention of it happening but that emotions just overran them. She met him to prove to herself that she was over the mistreatment he caused.
Anyway, she swears it was a horrible mistake and a one time deal. We are working with a counselor and are reading 2 of Harley's books (His Needs, Her Needs and Surviving an Affair). We are working through it and learning a lot about each other.
Basically, I was hoping that some veterans out there could give me (us) some advice on how to make me feel more secure when I am not with her. I find it hard mot to snoop through her things and read her emails. She has told him that all contact is forever gone and I watched write the email to him. However, I am driving myself crazy with the thoughts of her emailing him at work (to which I have no access). I want to trust her but that ability has obviously been shattered by her actions.
I appreciate any suggestions (from those trying to work it out with their spouse) and apologize if this is rambling.

Invert,

Hang in there. I am 2 1/2 months past D-Day and still have a difficult time with the same issue. When she is at work I cannot monitor her actions so I am concerned. Talk to your wife about this. I tihnk you may find that her reassurance will be as helpful to you as the reaction. Once the affair is out in the open further contact can usually be 'read' in the person's eyes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically, I was hoping that some veterans out there could give me (us) some advice on how to make me feel more secure when I am not with her. I find it hard mot to snoop through her things and read her emails. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Invert29 - ahhh....the old "how to" question.

Let me first say that you probably won't "like" this, but it really is the truth and you will need to learn to accept it. The "how to" is a combination of two main factors plus a decision on your part.

First, your wife needs to be an "open book." She needs to do the things that are talked about in Dr. Harley's books and articles, especially accountability for time. The reason is simple. She needs to "prove" by her actions that her words are not hollow. You don't trust, and you shouldn't trust. Trust is very fragile. It is very easy to lose it, much harder to regain. It has to be earned. Yes, there is a factor of giving trust too. But that is basically stated as "trust, unless given a reason not to trust." part of confirming that there is no reason NOT to trust is checking up, snooping, whatever term or action you want to use in order to confirm that behavior HAS changed and that the words being said to you are backed up by action.

Second, a lot of time is needed. I know that you probably don't want to hear that, but it is true. This was no "simple mistake." This was a betrayal of all that was promised in, and expected of, the marriage covenant. It shatters both trust and the WS's (Wayward Spouse) personal standards of behavior and their sense of "who" they are. It's even tougher if one is a Christian and knows that one of God's greatest commandments was broken for self-serving reasons.

So forgiveness and the passage of time that gives "truth" to the words spoken are required. There is no "shortcut." You don't "fall in love" instantly, and you don't recover from infidelity quickly. The average time is 2 years. Some are shorter and some are longer, but patience and persistance go a long way toward helping the situation.

The part YOU must add is to "let go." Right now that probably seems a very tough, even callous, thing to do. But, as you gain experience in her recommitment to the marriage and to her truthfulness, you will be able to "let go." Not all at once, but you will find yourself changing. You won't "check up" every day. When you reach the point where you are both trusting and believing each other, you'll be able to let it go as a "bad part of our past that has no bearing any longer on who we are today."

Let me also caution you here. Checking up can easily became a habit. While it is normal, even necessary early in recovery, you may find that gains a "control" on you. You start to feel "compelled" to check up even though all the previous checking has only confirmed her truthfulness and faithfulness. If that happens, you are going to have to "force" yourself to break the habit. You can't, and don't want to, live your life constantly checking up and your wife needs to know that she CAN be trusted again by you. When the checking up goes beyond the necessary and into the "habit", it is itself a very destructive thing to marriage.

So there is going to be a lot time needed. There is no need to beat yourself up about "checking up" now, it's needed to confirm that recovery is progressing and that truth and honesty are the real responses to her remorse. Eventually you will have to let the checking up go. By then, however, it may have become a habit and you will have to "force yourself" to break the habit or you will then be the source of pain and anguish for your spouse, something you don't want to do.

God bless. Hang in there. It will get better as you both work at it and trust God.

I29,
when i decided to give it a 2nd chance it became clear to me that i...ME not my W but ME...had to committ totally or just give it up.

it occured to me that like love, trust must sometimes be a blind leap of faith. otherwise i would go through life tomenting myself about what may or may not be happening.

please understand however, making such a comittment does not mean that we forget or behave stupidely. i was spying plenty in the coming months. i put key logger software on my home computer and bugged my home telephone with a little device from radio shack.

even if it's her work computer you're concerned about, if she's doing you dirt, she'll trip up at some point and use her home machine...likewise your home telephone. you also may want to check her cell phone bills and credit card bills.

i told my wife that i expected her to be answering my questions honestly about who what and where for a very long time ...and i expected no complaints from her about me checking up. i explained lovingly how insecure i was (still am!, LOL) and that i needed her help and cooperation to get past this. i simply asked that in light of what she had done, that she try to understand and be patient with me.

one last thought. you can't let this thing go with a simple apology from her. you guys should be in marriage counciling, working hard at changing whatever elements of the marriage led to her "fall from grace."

her excuses, as you have related them here, are at best simple and for the most part cliches; (read some of the posts to know). she has to realize that there consequences to her acts and a simple "i'm sorry" doesn't quite fit into that category.

coach

This question comes up so frequently that I have developed a standard response. I hope it is helpful: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As far as I can discern there is really only one approach to re-establishing trust, and a couple of well-established ways to get there. In both cases, the bottom line is: believe their actions, not their words, at least until you have seen a consistent pattern of their words and actions being aligned for a period of many months. That necessarily means you have to be more involved in their lives so that you have the ability to verify that their actions and words are cohesive.

The path to get there, according to Willard Harley, is to have no secrets from each other, and to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) in all your decisions. Once you see your spouse consistently use the POJA, and the two of you have learned to understand each other and communicate with each other well enough to implement it, you will trust them when they are out of sight, too. Perhaps ironically, one thing that will convince you of your spouse's honesty is if they tell you things they know will hurt, instead of lying to "protect" you. So this process will likely not be painless, especially since, if you are like most couples, it will require learning a new way to communicate. Change is hard.

A second path, promoted by Carder in “Torn Asunder” (and the younger Harleys, too, I think), is for the WS to really dig in to the "WHY?" of the affair, and in gaining that self-understanding, communicate to you both why it happened, and how she will change their behavior in ways that you can verify and that will prevent her from having another.

Of course, these two paths are not mutually exclusive. I view them as complementary, and think “Surviving an Affair”, by Harley is extremely helpful in figuring out important parts of the why, at least as far as the answer involves unmet Emotional Needs, and it almost always does, especially for a woman who has an affair.

The fallacy is the belief that unmet EN’s “cause” affairs. If that was the case, I would have had the affair, not my wife, because my EN’s were less well met in our marriage than hers.

Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is a so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and one of his biggest dis-agreements w/ Bill was on this very issue, because according to him, in about 40% of MEN'S affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionnaire. 2.) Meet your spouse’s EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 40%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken particularly the chapter on "The Double Life Man". Though the percentage of women who have this type of affair is small, it is not zero, so this could apply to your wife, too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am at a similar point as Invert29, and can relate to the feelings of mistrust. My D Day was 9-2-03, when my wife admitted, after I confronted her with questions about her phone records, to having a year long affair with a co-worker, who is from another city.

While she insists that the A is over and has not talked to OM, I still have trust issues, and feel that confirmation is needed, such as a review of her phone records (which she has locked me out of). Problem is, everytime I bring up anything about the A, she gets angry and defensive, and just wants to forget about it and get life back to "normal".

She refuses to go to MC, saying that it will just lead to divorce. Is she in Withdrawal? How can we get to recovery? Do I need to give her more time to work through Withdrawal? I have 2 boys, and will do anything to "work it out" and keep our family together.

Invert,

I think John and others have given you great advice. I thought I would explore with you somethings for you to think about.

I would like to offer you the definition of "trust" that I like.

It is simply the ability to predict future behavior under any and all conditions.

So how does one get this ability to "predict"?

Well there is "blind trust" or "unconditional trust". Harley counsels that should never be given to a spouse. It is a long arguement, but the essense is that if needs are not being met, or even if they are, one is foolish not to pay attention to your spouse. I agree.

The ability to "predict" can also be based on data. Continued agreement between verbal statements and actions. Observation by you of actions that ultimately allow you to predict your spouses behavior. That is trust.

I will offer you an example. If you had a wife that slept with every man that talked with her, then you could "trust" that she would sleep with the next man that talked to her. No you might not find that "trust" very reassuring, but never the less you could trust that her actions would be consistent.

So if you buy what I am saying, is it little wonder that you have no trust a week, a month, even 6 months after an affair??? I don't think so. You need to collect the data, your W needs to present you with the data, and the data and her verbal reassurances need to match. If she does this, you will gradually have confidence in your ability to predict and you will come to trust her again.

Now this leads me to something else. Many WS's are highly offended when you don't trust them. If you were to explain these thoughts about trust, perhaps they would help. Why? Because the last major event was their betrayal of you, and the question is do they want you to use that as your data to "predict" how they will respond? If not, then they need to help you collect the data the supports how THEY want you to be able to predict their behavior.

They have control really, and if they learn this, then they are more likely to help. Comments such as "I don't trust you" are as useful as yelling at a slow running kid that he is slow. He knows that, what he doesn't know is how to learn to run faster.

If you talk with your W about this and you offer a way for her to help you develop the trust again, you might get a very helpful spouse.

Finally, in conjunction with what John said, the Why? of the matter needs to be understood before you will develop trust. Now part of the reason may be the state of your marriage (needs not being met). Or it could be unresolved issues that she brought to the marriage. There is little doubt that not meeting needs makes for a weaker marriage, but as John said Harley clearly states in one article, NEEDS not being met do NOT cause affairs. That is a decision the WS makes, for themselves. They may use the needs as an excuse, but all it really is an explanation for the state of the marriage, not the state of the affair.

Must go.

I hope something I have said is of help. This will take a lot of time and patience on the part of you and your W, so relax, you are in for a ride on the rollercoaster. By the way, if your W confessed this affair to you without you even knowing about it, make sure you thank her. She has done something that should help you develop the ability to predict. It is clear that she feels remorse and you have the basis for a very good recovery.

God Bless,

JL

To Working It Out - I can appreciate how your wife just wants everything to "get back to normal". I sometimes feel the same way, although I was the BS and not the WS. However, I think it is imperative to seek counseling. My D day was two weeks ago and we are starting counseling next week. I think my husband deems it mostly unecessary as well, and he also has the thoughts that "I might find out many things I don't like about him" and that it could lead us to divorce. What is the alternative though? I think MC can help you to figure out why the affair happened in the first place and how to eventually have a better marriage.

WIO: the fact that she willnot let you see her phone records is a huge red flag, and typical of someone who is still engaged in an affair. So is the anger when you bring up the topic.

Invert there is another couple here where the wife had an affair just shortly after their marriage, were on the verge of divorce, but reconciled and are working hard to recover from the affair. The husband goes by the name of StillTryingToSaveIt and his wife by ImReady2Try. You might want to start a thread asking them what has worked or hasn't worked in their attempts to rebuild their marriage.

Thanks HB30 and John39,

I agree that MC would help. How can I convince her of its value and actually get her to go?

As far as the phone records, I am afraid that if I demand/require that I see them, she will "spin" it into an argument, threaten me with D, and claim that I have not made any progress in controlling my emotions and forgiving her.

My confidence is so low now, I am having hard time making decisions, and am second guessing myself on everything--and I never used to be this way! My confidence was one of the things that made me attractive to her, and I want it back.

TMCM,
I just read the 180 DB list, and tried some of it last night. I think it is good and will help my situation. It gives you some sense of confidence.

My question is if I should be using these concepts/tactics at this point. DDay was 9-2-03, and I am still not 100% sure that my WW is telling the truth about NC with OM. Do I need to work on NC and trust (verbal, actions and data) first, and then the DB? Or can I use them simuiltaneously?

Is there anyone out there that can give guidance?

Trust comes last. It is the result of a history of consistent actions. You have not seen that. It sounds to me like SHE is demanding that you trust her. Trust is earned, not demanded. She has destroyed the trust you have in her, and she need to earn it back, and it will take 6 months to two years. Trust is quickly broken and slowly repaired. If she is not willing to PROVE to you that she is trustworthy, she probably isn't.

If I was in your situation, I would spy. Voice-activated recorder in her car for example. There are ways you can get access to her cell phone bill without her consent. Semen detection: http://www.infidelitytoday.com/. She will blame you for her actions. That does not mean you are to blame. She does not get to decide unilaterally what reality is. Oh, and if he is married, you absolutely should tell his wife.

As for DB vs. Plan A, I don't know.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

I have read the string started by SP42, and think that it is really a good one, really helpful. So I am hoping that by giving more detail to my situation, I can get more specific direction.

Around the beginning of the year, I began to notice changes in our relationship. Lack of conversation (other than daily logistics), minimal sex, and a change in her attitude towards me. She was mean, said nasty things, and treated me like an idiot. I chalked it up to work-kid stress. At the same time, I was going through a tough time at work, and brought it home with me, which I now know was wrong and took away from my attention to her EN. I changed jobs in March, and work/life began to improve, but the damage was done.

She also started to travel more, which at first I thought nothing of, but became more suspicious as the trips became more frequent.

I pay the bills in our family, and one day had to look up her cell phone account on-line. I discovered a large number of calls to 2 numbers (OM office and cell).

The deeper I dug, the more I found out and eventually figured out who it was when I called the number on her phone and heard the OM answer in a way that convinced me there was an A. I was in shock, and didn't know how, when, or if to confront her with it. It ate away at me, and I felt awful, even guilty that I had checked up on her.

It intensified when she found out that I had seen the bills. I questioned her directly if she was having an A with this person, and she denied it, accusing me of invading her privacy. I felt horribly guilty, but knew deep down that something was going on.

I continued to ask her, but was met with anger and accusations. DDay was 9-2-03 (day after my BDay). OMW was actually the catalyst to make my W confess, as OMW had found out somehow and was calling our house night and day, leaving nasty messages (which my W intercepted and erased)and using vulgar language with my oldest son (5) when he answered with my W on the other line.

OMW was threatening to tell both of their bosses if I was not told of the A. It was only under these circumstances that she confessed to a year long EA and PA.

My W actually then convinced me to contact OMW and "reem her a new one", telling her to never call again. I wish I had discovered MB earlier, as I think I have made some mistakes in handling the whole situation.

My W insists that she never would have confessed the A if OMW didn't find out, and that it was "evolving" back into a friendship.

The stuff that hurts me the most is associating the dates and times that I was doing "normal" things in life, never once thinking anyting was wrong, trusting her 100% and now realizing that she was calling him morning, noon,and night.

She would call him during the week when I was sleeping, Saturday nights after we would return from going out, Father's Day morning when I was out getting donuts with the kids (this one really hits hard), 4th of July first thing in the morning.

We were on a company award trip (end of June) that she won. We didn't even sleep in the same bed, and had "sex" 1x. I would wake up and she would be gone. I found out now that she was sneaking out to be with him. She insists that it was to talk about "logisitcs" of the trip and how they could keep their secret, but I can't help but believe that they were passionate (they "ran" on isolated trails). I actually bumped into him (their room was right next to ours) when he was returning from being with her one of the mornings.

I still don't believe she told me all the details, the whole truth. Now she just wants to get back to normal, says that she loves me and made a mistake,and wants to keep the marriage for the kids and me. Anytime I try to talk about it, we end up arguing and she threatens me with D.

I am in therapy (I wouldn't even call it MC) to control my emotions and to talk to someone. The only other person who knows is her brother, who she put up to talk to the OMW to see if he could convice her that it was me (didn't work).

I love her in spite of all these evil things and want my family back. The plan for right now is to be as normal as possible and not talk about it, as I think she is in withdrawal. I will give her this time, but then I want to make sure that there has been NC and will ask for proof so that we can move to Recovery.

What do you think of this plan and thanks for all your support.

WIO