Cerri,
I have read your posts and see that many have come to you for advice. I perused your website briefly and plan to return when I can spend more time. I think that it is great that you are so dedicated to this work.

My questions is - do you have any advice for those of us dealing with SA's? The few people that I know from this board M a SA but didn't know that was the case at the time of M, including me.

We already know that you can't Plan A an SA. I was meeting all of my FWH's EN's and then some.

I did LB though and all that did was give him permission to keep acting out.

What would you recommend as the steps to Recovery for someone living with a SA over and above SAA meetings?

Thanks for your time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Are we talking active SA or recovering with precautions like accountabilty, O&H, and working to restore the marriage with time, care and protection? There's quite a difference between the two. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now first of all - if this is not and active SA then there is no current infidelity and PlA has no place in your vocabulary. You need to be talking Pl4R (Plan for Recovery) The two are very different and have very different strategies.

Also, you certainly can PlA an addict, because PlA is a strategy to end the affair and encompasses much much more than avoiding LBers and meeting needs. Read here for information on what a good PlA looks like.

PlA for an active addiction is much like the steps you would take for an intervention. With PlB paralelling the detachment you would exercise if your spouse was an alcoholic. Only we add the no contact seperation to make sure you are protected from the pain and to increase the chances that you will still be willing to save the marriage when your spouse is willing to address the addiction.

Ok, fill me in on the details and we'll talk.

C

Thank goodness, at this point in time, we are talking about **recovering with precautions like accountabilty, O&H, and working to restore the marriage with time, care and protection**.

Even though I didn't really understand or even know about Plan A in 2002, I had set out to expose and end the affairs. I did not expose them to friends and family per se, but I exposed all of the OW to each other. Each of them thought that they were "the one". Right or wrong, I let them know about me and that he was married. Some may say that my behavior was co-dependent. I would never ask to repeat this, even to do things better a 2nd time around.

Most of his A's were EA's with OW from his past that he knew before me. In essence, I was one of the OW too and he just chose to marry me and make it permanent. I had no idea all of this was occuring. Call me blind, stupid, naive, in love, whatever.

The last slip was porn on PPV at the end of September. Prior to that, the last relapse was recontacting one of the OW from his past. I take some blame in that because I think I triggered him. I was adamant about contacting her H to tell him of the PA they had before he met me. I was feeling guilty for not telling her H as I would have wanted to know. He made contact with her and told her that I was going to call, etc. etc. We did end up contacting him and she ended up filing a report with the police dept against my FWH for stalking. I was glad. Ended that relapse.

Prior to that, he had been text messaging one of the OW from his past on and off. She lives in another country. All of his slips have not ended in ongoing and continued contact and he has been expressing a deep desire to change this behavior.

The last time he was in deep FOG was 1/03. That is when he sent the final NC letter and has stuck to NC with 2 of the main 4 OW and has not acted out on the internet since. He did find a way to play the Love Game on his cell phone 2/03, but disconnected the internet on it once I found out and talked to one of the females that called him.

He has read Don't Call It Love and he has also read and done the work in a workbook called the Emotional Journey through Addiction.

When we were in counseling, we never got to the root of the SA. He is willing to go to an intense inner self training - similar to Mankind Project. It doesn't start until after the new year. In the meantime, he has written what I call a Prevention plan - with help from the books he has read.

Being that he has not acted out in a month, we are further along than ever before. I'm still hesitant and cautious.

Any words of advice?

I thought I would jot down a bit more information regarding my hx.

OW#1 called "my" home after he had moved in with me and was living with me for almost 2 months. She had been looking for him. She was from another country, they were supposed to be getting M. She continued to call and contact him via e-mail and continued to contact his family.

OW#2 saw e-mails in his hotmail account. Yikes! I was trying to be the bigger person and thought that these were just OW that he didn't close the door on before he moved in with me. We were both dating others when we met. He continued contact with another of the OW from another country and the e-mails were inappropriate.

OW#3 found a letter from her regarding their PA prior to him knowing me. I knew he had been calling this OW, but he had told me she was a contact at a place he was trying to get a job. I had issues with it, but didn't realize it was this bad.

OW#4 she e-mailed one of the new accounts that he set up after OW#1 broke in and took over all his other accounts. She was once yet again one that was thinking they were going to get M. Yuck!

There were multiple OW. I name the top 4 as the main 4 because they were the ones that continued contact with him and he continued contact with them even after they knew about me and he was married to me. There were at least 2 others that were in the "serious" stage of thinking they were going to M him. It makes me sick typing about it, yet it assists me in being honest with myself about what was going on.

For years, he had participated in online sex and telephone sex. He viewed internet and TV porn on a regular basis. He was exposed to sexual activity at a very young age. The books describe much of what he has experienced, he has a classic case of sex addiction.

I didn't know all this for a long, long time though! I just thought that he didn't love me, wouldn't pick me, couldn't let them go and many other crazy thoughts during the last year and a half. I have been near leaving. Once I got myself together, I think he realized that the game was about to end. Sad to say, but preparing for Plan B was probably his wake up call.

Ok, I think you have some really good things in place already. I have some other questions and some misc. comments.

One of the conditions for recovery, probably one of the most important, is eliminating the conditions that allowed the A to continue or to begin in the first place.

So, given that these were primarily internet and phone A's, what have you done to make it next to impossible for him to do that again?

Spyware? Accountability software? Phone passwords? Access to all financial accounts?

What are you doing to account for time and whereabouts?


Some may say that my behavior was co-dependent.

Well I wouldn't be one of them. I have huge issues with the codpendency mvt on a lot of issues and this is one of them. Do you know Roberta -oooh, there's a number there but I can't remember it - ? She posted a very similar question to me a month or so ago and we had a very interesting discussion on SA, I'll see if I can find it for you. She would also have some good insights for you on recovery.

I know that codependency can be a problem, but you have to remember that actions you must take to end an affair and to make sure you will not be hurt in this way again can look like codependency. That doesn't mean that they are.

Codependency is a state of obsession that goes beyond the normal fear and pain and very very normal obsession you have when you find out and you are in the early stages of recovery. It's an obsession that lasts when the conditions are changed and recovery is well underway - or when someone is in PlB and just can't let go and take a break. I see it once in a while but not frequently.

Kind of like the difference between normal healthy red blooded men who think about sex - what is it? - every sixth thought and the addict who cannot stop the obsessing no matter what. Or the woman who cares how she looks and what she weighs and the woman who obsesses every second with wondering if she is fat. See what I mean?

Most of his A's were EA's with OW from his past that he knew before me. In essence, I was one of the OW too and he just chose to marry me and make it permanent.

Oh my... you have no idea how close to home that one hits!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I had no idea all of this was occuring. Call me blind, stupid, naive, in love, whatever.

It's the propensity we have to trust. It's not stupid, it's just not having a clue that this is something you need to know or be concerned about.

The last slip was porn on PPV at the end of September.

So what have you done to make that virtually impossible in the future?

Prior to that, the last relapse was recontacting one of the OW from his past. I take some blame in that because I think I triggered him. I was adamant about contacting her H to tell him of the PA they had before he met me.

Sorry, not buying the blame thing. No matter what you do or don't do, he is responsible for his actions and his choices. I agree that you can do things to make it more difficult for him to stay sober, but it is never your fault.

I was feeling guilty for not telling her H as I would have wanted to know. He made contact with her and told her that I was going to call, etc. etc. We did end up contacting him and she ended up filing a report with the police dept against my FWH for stalking. I was glad. Ended that relapse.

Oh that's funny. You call to talk to her H and she accuses you of stalking. I never cease to be amazed and the sheer crassness of OP.

I do think that her H needed to know and that you did the right thing. As you say it ended the possibility of contact!


Prior to that, he had been text messaging one of the OW from his past on and off. She lives in another country.

So what are you doing to remove that possibility? See if he can't control his behavior - and as an addict he can't that's part of what addiction is about - then there needs to be precautions that make the behavior impossible. I would say get rid of the TM feature. We've lived for thousands of years without it, he'll survive.

All of his slips have not ended in ongoing and continued contact and he has been expressing a deep desire to change this behavior.

That's very good, but the desire needs to be backed up by changing conditions and options so that he cannot do those things.

He did find a way to play the Love Game on his cell phone 2/03, but disconnected the internet on it once I found out and talked to one of the females that called him.

Yep, that's exactly what I mean. If it is a potential problem get rid of it. Sounds paranoid and obsessive and codependent - you can do what looks healthy to make someone think you are ok or you can do what it takes to save your marriage.

He has read Don't Call It Love and he has also read and done the work in a workbook called the Emotional Journey through Addiction.

I would say check out Carnes' site if you haven't - you probably have but here it is anyway www.sexhelp.com

I would be sure to check out his bookstore link there too. In the Shadows of the Net is very excellent.

[b[When we were in counseling, we never got to the root of the SA.[/b]

You may not. I think 12 steps groups are more effective in addressing behavior. I would also only refer someone I was working with to a therapist that has been trained by Carnes.

Working a good recovery program with a 12 step group will help lead to the root, but more importantly will address real change in the present and the future. That's what really counts.

Being that he has not acted out in a month, we are further along than ever before. I'm still hesitant and cautious.

So is he in a 12 step group?

C

Roberta is a close friend in Recovery. I depend on her and Drucilla to be honest with me and know that they care about me and my Recovery.

Prevention tactics thus far:
- Password that only I know for the PPV on all TV's in the house. (his idea)
- No Internet and now No computer in our house. Don't care if we ever have one again.
- A job for him that does not allow computer access. He was a computer programmer. Now he does hard labor and actually loves it.
- No Internet access on the cell phone. I have access to the cell phone activity daily on the net at my job.
- Cell phone voicemail has both of our names on it and I have the password.
- I see the home phone bill when it comes in.
- Accountable for his time.

There are still a few gray areas that I would like to be able to "control" or prevent. He has and can still use a friend's phone at work. He can still purchase magazines and view them at work. That's about all that I can think of at this time.

He is not in a 12-step program, just doing the workbook, reading, attending church and staying active in our family life.

Thank you for the support!!!

<small>[ October 30, 2003, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: onlyUcan ]</small>

Ok, I have a link to a resource for finding a group that I will post for you.

If you have complete accountability for $ then purchasing a magazine becomes very difficult. Yes, he can use a friend's phone, that's a little harder to stay on top of. If he has friends who would let him use it for that purpose, these are not friends and need to be out of your lives.

Here's the link. http://www.sexaa.org/meetings.htm

Isn't Roberta great? I'm glad you two are talking.

C

Yes, Roberta is awesome.

Thank you for the links. I will use them.

The so-called friends work with him. I don't think they know what he is using their phone for.

Magazine purchases could come from his weekly allowance and I wouldn't know.

I suppose to some degree I have to trust him. If he really wants to heal himself, he gets to be accountable to himself too.

There are days when I am very sick of this and want my old life back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: onlyUcan ]</small>

One of the things that had to change in our lives was carrying cash. Unless he is willing to submit receipts that add up to the weekly allowance, I would say just get rids of it.

Yeah, it's a hassle I know. But addiction is a worse one. There is almost nothing that cannot be purchased with a check or a cc and then you have an accountability paper trail.

So are you saying that the friends phone was used for this in the past or that you are just worried about it now?

Still phone sex would require $ and if you have all that accounted for it makes it pretty difficult to get away with.

I know - you want to go back to that time of innocence. I'm sorry I wish I could give you that but I can't. I can tell you - having lost my innocence on so many things - that you'll be fine and that you will have a deeper level of compassion, empathy and understanding for your fellow travelers on the planet than will someone who never faces these things.

All the best always -

C

Yes, I do have more compassion than I thought possible. And I see things through a different set of eyes now. My heart aches for all the pain and sorrow, but rejoices for the forgiveness and honesty.

He HAS used the phones in the past to make conact with 2 of the OW. He doesn't 'pay' for telephone sex, he was getting it from all the OW from his past and the ones he would seduce online. Yuck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Since he has been working, phone sex is not an issue unless it would be times that I am not at home. I don't leave home that often in the evening.

Converting the cash allowance to cc and check sounds like a good idea. From what I have been able to verify and from his word (as good as it can be trusted), he has not acted out since 9/27. (porn on TV)

What I am struggling with now is how much time and effort he was spending on these OW. Seducing them so that he would always have them in the palm of his hand to do whatever he wanted. I would like to see him spend that much time and energy on me now. He seems to have settled into our life and is very comfortable. I'm missing something.

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: onlyUcan ]</small>