cerri...

i am in crisis mode at the moment... my husband prefers that i not discuss our personal situation with anyone, including here on the boards... he says it's between us... my only problem, him not being willing to discuss things with me...

i need to talk... i need to speculate... i need to wonder out loud... i need to put the matter on the table and fully dissect it... i can't do so in a void... i need feedback... i need input from others who have traveled this road...

part of me wants to honor my husbands request for silence, so i need to understand... why is the sharing of personal information on an anonymous board not a good idea?...

much appreciation in advance...

oaktown...

to the forum at large: i've read that cerri's time here is limited these days... my prayers and well wishes are directed towards her also... i would appreciate insight from anyone who can help me understand cerri's point of view...

<small>[ October 31, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

oaktown, looks like you have both had an A from your info at the bottom of your post. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to discuss on this board it's your decision. There have been a few very sensitive things about our R that I have left out, but for the most part I've spilled my guts. And let me tell you it feels fantastic! I told my H about this site, told him my name, and said he could read all he wants. Thought it would help him as well. Don't know if he has read what I've written and people have responded, but he has the option.

Stick to your guns and don't let him control you!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Suebee:
<strong>Stick to your guns and don't let him control you!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suebee...

here's the rub... for eleven years i've chosen to believe that his desire for me not to talk to others is about control... for eleven years he's insisted that it isn't... therefore, for eleven years we've been at logger heads...

i'm chosing to step back and say that his notion may have merit... so i'm seeking the input of respected voices... perhaps one of you can put it to me in such a way that "i get it"... nothing ventured, nothing gained...

thanks suebee... you've helped me put in perspective why i'm asking the question... despite the fact that we've both had affairs, at the end of the day i want the marriage...

oaktown...

This is a trick question right?? Ok, just kidding here's the deal.

Everything you do in marriage affects how your spouse feels and how s/he feels about you. That being the case if you want your mate to be in love with you, it is in your best interests to live by the POJA.

Never DO (not - not do) anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

This means if your spouse doesn't like it, it doesn't happen. That includes posting on an anonymous board. (I've had a thread rattling in my head for a while on this topic but just haven't had time.... soon I hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

So, I understand that there are things you need to talk about and get some insight on. One option - posting here about the specifics - has been eliminated. You might feel resentful, but the resentment you feel about the things you don't get to do is your own stuff to deal with in an non LBing way.

But there are still an infinite number of options and if you are willing to hone your negotiating skills you can get to one that will work for him and you.

Here's what I would do - Go back to your hubby. Tell him that you understand he doesn't want you to post your private stuff here and that you will honor that. And then let him know how you are FEELING - alone, unhappy, worried, confused, whatever - and ask him for some thoughts on how you can handle that. Would he be ok with emailing a same sex marriage advocate friend? How about talking to your pastor or his wife? What about a counselor?

See if you can find out specifically what he objects to and what he is afraid of if you confide in someone else. And then see if there is a way to have a confidante and take those concerns into account.

Control is about expecting someone to do what you want or in the manner that you want - in effect a demand. Asking that your mate not do something that is objectionable is what we should all be doing. And the only appropriate response (if we want to have a happy and fulfilling marriage) is to take those feelings into account and honor them.

C

Cerri:

Very well stated. I've chosen, for now, 2 stop talking about my M on the boards, but I have not yet chosen 2 have my old threads deleted. I'm still thinking about that one.

I do know now, from firsthand interactions, that it is impossible NOT 2 have EVERTYHING I do, think, and say affect my M. I think you were saying the same thing in your post. I didn't realize that until we really started recovery, because so much of my thinking was affecting the "impact" I have on people around me, and my ability 2 notice it, that I couldn't change it in2 a positive influence until I "shut up" in effect and listened better. "Llistened" 2 actions and words, and not just from people around me, but from myself. Kind of like Tolle's "watching the thinker" strategy for living in the now.

I've gotten here through a long period of LBing, being DJing, plan Aing, and posting personal stuff. I think I had 2 do that. There are almost certainly better ways 2 recover than the way I've been doing it up until now, but I musta hadto do it the way I did, or I wouldn't have... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, now is NOW. It's better than ever before. And I'm going 2 do my best 2 honor my W's request (not stated as a request, but as a "truth" that she's not comfortable with me talking about 'her' on the boards) and just stop.

Please point out 2 me when I stray, okay?

Get some candy corn. It makes me smile just 2 look at! I want all my friends 2 experience the smile that candy corn on Halloween brings!

-ol' 2long

Cerri:

Very well stated. I've chosen, for now, 2 stop talking about my M on the boards, but I have not yet chosen 2 have my old threads deleted. I'm still thinking about that one.

I do know now, from firsthand interactions, that it is impossible NOT 2 have EVERTYHING I do, think, and say affect my M. I think you were saying the same thing in your post. I didn't realize that until we really started recovery, because so much of my thinking was affecting the "impact" I have on people around me, and my ability 2 notice it, that I couldn't change it in2 a positive influence until I "shut up" in effect and listened better. "Llistened" 2 actions and words, and not just from people around me, but from myself. Kind of like Tolle's "watching the thinker" strategy for living in the now.

I've gotten here through a long period of LBing, being DJing, plan Aing, and posting personal stuff. I think I had 2 do that. There are almost certainly better ways 2 recover than the way I've been doing it up until now, but I musta hadto do it the way I did, or I wouldn't have... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, now is NOW. It's better than ever before. And I'm going 2 do my best 2 honor my W's request (not stated as a request, but as a "truth" that she's not comfortable with me talking about 'her' on the boards) and just stop.

Please point out 2 me when I stray, okay?

Get some candy corn. It makes me smile just 2 look at! I want all my friends 2 experience the smile that candy corn on Halloween brings!

-ol' 2long

Sorry, I disagree. My H has abandoned me and the marriage. I do not talk to step children, my children, his family, my friends, my family, people I work with, or anyone else about what has happened. But I have to talk to someone, otherwise I would go crazy. I don't think it would make any difference to WH if I talk about details on this site. No one knows him and know one knows me. I will continue to give the sordid details. Stay tuned.

Believer, If your H is having an active affair or if he has indeed abandoned you and the family - as in left the home - or there is physical abuse (in which case you definitely need to be seperated) then I have different thoughts on the matter. But that is not what oaktown was asking, and that is not what 2long is talking about.

Even in those cases I have very strong feelings about the kinds of things that can be shared here and what is an appropriate way to do so.

Everyone likes to think that they are unique and that the POJA does not apply to their situation. Almost universally that is the Taker's attempt to let you continue to do what you want regardless of how your spouse feels about it.

C

Dear Oaktown,

My H used to babble about me talking about our personal life (esp his A scrap anywhere, esp MB) I told him that MB has been my support when he wasn't. If and when he decided to be my support like he is suppose to be then we can discuss me NOT posting.

Well now that this is happening, now the Xws not only like me to post but even talks with some MBers. Even met with them on 3 different occasions.

You need to talk to who you need to talk with. He can no more control you in this regard than you were able to control his A. Oh, he may try but most men are no match for a manipulating W, esp an OW. So he is the one who needs to watch out.

re: If the Ws has to give up his rights to live in the concrete jungle, then he'd better control his info. U don't have to accomodate ALL his request, just the ones you choose and how. See she loves both of you.

L.

Regardless of how much you want to do something - anything - or how good it feels, if you are doing so without your spouse's knowledge and enthusiastic agreement you are love busting big time. You are in violation of the Policy of Radical Honesty (if they don't know what you are doing or to what extent), the Policy of Joint Agreement (Never do anything without an enthusiastic support between you and your spouse) and you are engaging in Independent Behavior - doing something that feels good for you but is objectionable to your spouse.

There is nothing that makes this any better/different than a spouse who decides to spend too much (I'll quit hanging out at the mall when you talk to me more), drinking with the guys (I'll stay home when you quit nagging), or even having an affair (I would have stayed faithful but you didn't meet my needs) Blaming our spouses for our own selfish choices is an instinctual defense to delude ourselves into thinking we have a right to do what it is we want without considering how they feel about it. Combatting that very thing is what MB is all about, whether it be too much time with the tv or serial infidelity.

We need to negotiate to get our needs met in marriage. And we don't need to meet needs unconditionally or unilaterally. But there is nothing that makes violating the policies of RH and POJA acceptable or that makes independent behavior suddenly ok. Just because this is a board that discusses issues of marriage does not make it exempt from the rules that apply to marriage - if anything it should be a place where we are more aware of them and more careful to make sure we are not in violation when we are here.

The MB philosophy is clear - if your spouse doesn't like it for any reason whatsoever - it doesn't happen. I will reiterate the quote I have in my sig line "Those who say they cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement are really saying that what they want to do is more important than how you (the spouse) feels." Willard F. Harley PhD - founder of Marriage Builders.

The only exception to that, as I said above is when there is active infidelity or abuse that is not in the recovery phase, then you need to take steps that seem as if they violate the POJA in order to save the marriage. No other circumstances make it ok.

C

<small>[ November 01, 2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

cerri...

i keep trying to compose a reply and everything i come up with sounds like i'm being selfish and just want things my way... bottom line, i can/do agree with everything you've written...

i have two problems...

one: my husband's and my world view are radically different... he comes from a male dominated society... men have the final say just because they are men and the law backs them up... the advice i've gotten from my sister-in-laws is pray and submit...

two: i have zero negotiation skills... my husband's mental agility far and away surpasses my own... whether it's written or verbal, he's there ahead of me every time...

my husband believes that we should agree to disagree... so, how do you apply the policy of joint agreement when only one of us believes that it should be followed?...

oaktown...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>But, now is NOW. It's better than ever before. And I'm going 2 do my best 2 honor my W's request (not stated as a request, but as a "truth" that she's not comfortable with me talking about 'her' on the boards) and just stop.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2long...

how to ask?... what to ask?...

if things weren't better than ever before, do you think you would/could have made the same decision?... you've been with unconditional love for some time now... why didn't ulove inspire you to honor her request?...

sorry... somehow my questions sound disrespectful... i can't think of a better way to ask...

oaktown...

i keep trying to compose a reply and everything i come up with sounds like i'm being selfish and just want things my way...

LOL - there's a good indicator in itself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It is our very natural instinct to want to do the things we enjoy or that feel good for us. And when those things are threatened we naturally look for reasons why we should be able to continue to do what we want, even if our spouse isn't all that happy with it.

I've heard every excuse under the sun, I'm sure, for why one spouse would not need to give up something the other one doesn't like - and I've had more than a few of my own <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> For a very long time on this very topic we are discussing - so I know the siren song of posting about your marriage here. I can also say beyond a doubt that my marriage did not begin to get well until I stopped posting here.



one: my husband's and my world view are radically different... he comes from a male dominated society... men have the final say just because they are men and the law backs them up... the advice i've gotten from my sister-in-laws is pray and submit...

Well, I don't put much stock in the pray and submit method. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Prayer is good, submission is ridiculous.

His world view is different, but that doesn't make it bad. Makes it more challenging perhaps, but it's not bad. He will have insights and wisdom that you do not, and vice versa. The problem is getting to a place where you can both hear and receive that information. And the way to open that door is for you to learn to be honest with him about how you feel.

two: i have zero negotiation skills... my husband's mental agility far and away surpasses my own... whether it's written or verbal, he's there ahead of me every time...

Mmmmmm yesssss.... I grew up in that kind of family so we tend to intimidate people too. But you have to get this very important piece - negotiation has very little to do with what you think and everything to do with how you feel.

You don't need to be faster on your feet with opinions and expert advice and education - you need to be able to talk about how you feel and to ask for what you want. And then from there to explore how he feels and believes. Only when you do those things can you begin to negotiate to a really good solution.

my husband believes that we should agree to disagree... so, how do you apply the policy of joint agreement when only one of us believes that it should be followed?...

You do it. You don't agree to anything that you are not enthusiastic about (this is the hardest part). You talk about how you feel and ask for changes - daily - day in and day out. You do not do things which he objects to.

Does this mean you might spend a lot of time doing very little of anything. Yep. Especially at first. But if you really stick to the not agreeing when you aren't enthusiastic and the not doing what he doesn't like then you will eventually get either very very bored or you will get motivated to learn what it would take to find a good solution.

Now, a word about control. If there is something that he wants you to do (not - not do) that you're not all that thrilled about, and he demands, insists, gets rude and disrespectful or even loses his temper to try to get his way - THAT is an attempt at control. When he tries to make you do something that you don't like or don't feel right about and he does not accept no graciously - then you are dealing with a control issue.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>His world view is different, but that doesn't make it bad. Makes it more challenging perhaps, but it's not bad. He will have insights and wisdom that you do not, and vice versa. The problem is getting to a place where you can both hear and receive that information. And the way to open that door is for you to learn to be honest with him about how you feel.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i don't think his world view is bad... there are many things i appreciate about it... it's not all good either... the same is true for my world view also... i've always advocated that we take as much of the good and discard as much of the bad as possible...

my husband equates me telling him about my feelings to emotional blackmail... emotionally i feel as though i've been stranded on a deserted island... unfortunately i'm going to be here until my husband decides to come back, open up and talk to me about the thing i need to discuss...

so, in the meantime, i am trying to honor his request... based on:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Even in those cases I have very strong feelings about the kinds of things that can be shared here and what is an appropriate way to do so.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how do i figure out what is and is not too appropriate?... when it comes to infidelity anything that i post will be based on what i'm thinking or what i'm feeling which makes it personal by default... a little guidance would be greatly appreciated...

last question... should whether or not i seek a counselor for me be held up to poja also?...

oaktown...

Ok - so is there current infidelity? If there is then we need to talk about that and POJA gets moved to the middle burner if not the back one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The thing is you need to let him know how you feel. That's not emotional blackmail and saying that it is is a defense tactic to keep from feeling guilty. If he's doing things that hurt you, he should feel guilty!!! LOL

Guilt is a good thing - in the right place. Feeling guilty about asking someone to stop something that you find objectionable - that's misplaced. Feeling guilty about doing things that your spouse doesn't like - is very healthy.

So when he says that you talking about your feelings is emotional blackmail, that may be what he means. That he feels guilty about things he's done and he doesn't want to have to face that. It may also mean that your method of delivery is demanding or disrepsectful - that you are talking more about opinions and thoughts than feelings.

Either way, regardless of what he says, this is the way to open the door to change. Tell him how you feel about the choices and decisions he makes. Listen to his input, look for ways to make it work for both of you. But it all starts with that honest expression of your feelings.

Are you looking for a MC or an IC and why?

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Ok - so is there current infidelity? If there is then we need to talk about that and POJA gets moved to the middle burner if not the back one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i discoverd the affiar on 10-02-03 when a letter came in the mail... so although the affair is not current the product of the affair is... the affair as best i can tell occured between 09-1999 and 12-2000... my husband is not intersted in giving me the details that i desire... he says the other woman did not mean anything to him and she is not a threat to our marriage...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The thing is you need to let him know how you feel. That's not emotional blackmail and saying that it is is a defense tactic to keep from feeling guilty.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my husband says that feeling belong to the individual and it's up to the individual to figure out what to do about them... he see me telling him my feelings as an effort to get my way or to exact control... guilt has nothing to do with it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you looking for a MC or an IC and why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i think that the marriage could really use a good marriage counselor or a referee... my husband is not interested... so, i've been thinking of trying to find a mfc, coach or individual counselor to sound things off of...

oaktown...

[b[]i discoverd the affiar on 10-02-03 when a letter came in the mail... so although the affair is not current the product of the affair is... the affair as best i can tell occured between 09-1999 and 12-2000... my husband is not intersted in giving me the details that i desire... he says the other woman did not mean anything to him and she is not a threat to our marriage...[/b]

Ok, so what you are telling me is that you know there was an affair. Since that time there has been no openess about what happened, no conditions for him getting to stay in the marriage, and no real attempts at restoring the marriage? And you have no way of knowing whether or not it's really over, what the conditions were that led to it and how he managed to keep it going on in secret?

If that's the case, I consider it active infidelity - mmmmmmmmm - or at least active possible infidelity. It's certainly not recovery by any stretch of the imagination.


my husband says that feeling belong to the individual and it's up to the individual to figure out what to do about them... he see me telling him my feelings as an effort to get my way or to exact control... guilt has nothing to do with it...

That may be what he says, but I would bet you my last m&m that guilt has a whole lot to do with it.

Break it down a little. Why would he feel that it is an effort to control if he wasn't squirming just a little bit on the inside when you tell him how you feel? If he wasn't feeling guilty?

The idea that your feelings are your own and that you need to deal with them is pure bunk - straight out of the late 70's and early 80's. A philosophy eroding marriages and families in droves.

We all know that we can make our spouse (or our boss or our parents or our kids or whoever) feel very badly by pushing just a few buttons. In marriage, everything we do affects how our spouse feels and how s/he feels about us. Which is exactly where we started with this subject.

I think your husband really believes (at least on the surface) what he is telling you about feelings, but his own actions on the opposite side of the issue don't add up.

Why is it that he is asking you not to post here? Because he FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE with the idea that your marriage and your private lives will be fodder for discussion by total strangers.

He is asking you to listen to how he feels and act in accordance. Conmpletely contrary to his stance that feelings are up to the individual to deal with and the other person should be free to do what they want. In short, he is being extremely hypocritical.

Now before y'all go jumpin' all over this and rationalizing OT's "right" to do the same, remember that no matter what your spouse does or does not do, it doesn't make LBing and violating POJA ok. Just plain out does not.

It's a very very common thing for Taker's to be hypocrits (which is what is happening with your H). The Taker's entire reason for existence is to make sure that you are happy and that your needs are met regardless of what happens to anyone around you - and that is the rule he is operating under right now.

The way around that - the way to open the door to change is to appeal to his Giver. It's under there somewhere. How do you do that? You are honest about how you feel and ask (ASK - not demand) for what you want and need.

The Giver hears what you say. Remember the Giver's sole reason for existence is to make other's happy no matter how that effects you - so the guilt he is feeling (and I know he is or he wouldn't get defensive about it) when you tell him how you feel is his Taker attempting to quiet the Giver. The more you can do this in a way that is CC&R, and the better you get at suggesting alternatives that work for both of you, the more it will be safe for his Giver to come out of hiding.


[i think that the marriage could really use a good marriage counselor or a referee... my husband is not interested... so, i've been thinking of trying to find a mfc, coach or individual counselor to sound things off of...


I agree, unfortunately most mc's and all ic's are trained to aid and abet the Taker - do what makes you feel good regardless of how it makes your spouse feel. There is some Giver talk in there but it's the destructive talk about needing to let your mate do what makes them feel happy - not much work on building honesty and negotiating skills.

C