</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JoeCM:
<strong> I am new here and I find myself more and more confused. What do you do when your W is having an A and she has already filed for a divorce?

I did in an off hand way talk with her about an affair but it blew up in my face and caused her to get mad and to not want to talk anymore. We are both Christians but she has departed as far as she can from Jesus.

Please help me. I am really getting very frustrated in that I broke off all communication but now I don't know if Plan A is for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Joe,
Thought it might be better if you were able to have direct responses to your questions.

Please read the concepts section above. Find a good MC or if you can do phone counseling with Steve, Jennifer or Cerri here @ MB, it w/b good.

Read the books: Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs.

Here's a some plan A and plan B info:

Plan A & Plan B info.
Taken from the basic concepts section:

What is the purpose of Plan A taken from the basic concepts section):

plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. {b]While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.{/b]


Plan B akso taken from the basic concepts section):
to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.


…In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

Read and let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

Thank you for posting this here. I hope that someone does answer because I read those sections. I do have the book on His Needs Her needs - I started reading it and then stopped. It became to overwhemling to me.

My problem is that I have asked my wife if she has had an affair and shared with her the things that I saw that made me believe that she has. Being that this is done over the phone - I could not see any body language - she said no. I asked her about a guy that she has been seeing every weekend only to find out that now she is seeing him every afternoon. She used the excuse that our 5 year old daugher likes to play with his 12 year old son.

She has already filed the divorce. She has told me she will not come back and that she is 98% sure that she wants this divorce. She told me last night that she does not love me and that I am a liar.

She has cut herself off from all her friends and it appears that she only listens to her mother and this guy. We are moving towards a hearing to force her to let me have my time with kids.

How do you love someone then that does not want to talk with you or see you? That is why I am lost on plan A and plan B - it seems to only appear that it pertains to someone that is still living at home.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for responding. I am glad you are reading the material.

Plan A is easier to do if the WS is at home but plan B is easier if the WS is out of the home.

As for loving your W, you can do with regardless of where she is because it is what is in your heart. However, her conduct may make those feelings be quite hurtful knowing she is not being faithful to you and your family.

See if you can setup a phone counseling session with Steve, Jennifer or Cerri.

Keep reading, you will find support here and in turn be able to help others.

take care,
L.

Reviving this one again.
I have asked before --- how do you do a plan A when they moved out and want a divorce. Denies affair. Feels they are the vessel that is hurt and that I should bow down and give all.

Also, is it right to call the OM? I have his nymber. He is seperated as well. My lawyer says do not call - she will use it as harrassment charges again and again.....etc.....

Thoughts orchid? Believer? TMCM? Cerri? Christians? I believe that I have forgiven her and this man which has brought a lot of sadness and grieving for them. Her for walking away from the Lord and him for stealing another mans wife - I know SAA says that they often don't set out to do that but somewhere along the line they must see the truth.....

Well Joe, my H is a Christian, and has been for many years, and he has still not figured out that what he is doing is wrong. He also denied anything going on, even after I had absolute proof- 6 motel bills. I think it does usually start out innocently, but the A quickly rages out of control. My H was out walking the dog, and OW was sitting on her porch crying because her H was called up for active duty and was gone for 6 months. His attempt to comfort her quickly turned into a torrid affair. Now WH and OW are living together. She even left her 12 year old daughter to be with my H. I think you can safely assume that your W is having an affair. The lack of interest in talking to you, suddenly wanting a divorce, blaming everything on you, getting mad at talk of Jesus, etc. tells the story. All you can do during this time is work on your issues, your walk with the Lord, working toward being able to spend time with daughters, exercising, joining support groups, working on MB program, and moving on with your life. There is nothing you can do. They are so deluded during this time that no words get through to them. My H actually thinks that the Lord doesn't want us to be married. He tells himself that he has done nothing wrong by breaking up our family and the OW's family. He and OW deny that her daughter is hurt by this, although she has been crying all the time since July, and is now disrespectful to her mother. Thankfully the OW's H is very close to his daughter and is a great father who spends lots of time with her. Anyway you are right that this is a bad spot to be in. I have been in Plan B for 7 weeks and have had NC with H for 6 of those weeks. The first week he came over several times, but soon got the idea that I meant NC until OW was out of the picture. Then she moved in with him. So it doesn't seem that Plan B has helped our marriage, but it has given me peace of mind. I am no longer on the rollercoaster, and not focused on them all of the time. I still have hope that the Lord will restore our marriage, but I know that there is nothing that I can do. The other good part of Plan B is that I have saved my love for H, which was quickly going down the drain. Also I have been able to forgive them more each day. Your path needs to start by following the MB program. Right now I would be in Plan A, as you are working on yourself, and getting to the point of seeing daughters. Although you don't talk to WW often, when you do, be respectful and don't LB, or talk about relationship, just be going on with your life. Good luck - it is miserable to go through, but things do get better, and remember, most WS's do come back to the marriage.

Hi Joe,

I thought I would also add in:first,do not contact OM.There is no point and it will not help in any way.Your WW will be angry,no doubt,and what have you to learn form him? Only more pain.

Second,regarding the Plans,I think for the stage you are in,it is sort of a combo.You should now try to act as much as you can in a dignified way,respectful,calm(as much as you are able) and open minded in your communication.Like a Plan A.

But also,like Plan B,do not let WW run the show either.Try to be strong especially regarding the kids and keep as little contact with her now as you can.Show her you are "moving on" even though you may be dying inside or are just plain hurting.What WW sees on the outside(you) right now is more important than how you are feeling.You can tell her what you would like out of all this mess(i.e. trying to work on marriage,you still care and love her,etc) but in the end,she is going to do what she wants and if that means laying waste to her marriage and everything around it,she just may do that and it is hard to not be able to stop it.We all hope our WS's come to their "senses" before the point of no return.

There is nothing you can do to stop WW from her actions right now, you are kind of caught in her current,so go along with the flow but keep your integrity and show her you are an intelligent,caring person despite her abhorrent actions.

It comes back to more of a Plan B and that is taking care of yourself and your children right now.We all have to deal with the grieving of lost love as we knew it.I don't know your whole story and why you are only talking on the phone? but I will try to add more later if I can read more of your posts.

october

Thank you for your answers. My emotions and my illness has gotten the best of me over the last 3 weeks. I am so tired and find myself up and down. I even started watching movies again which for me is a bad things since she hates them.

She is enjoying her freedom away from Christ. She appears to have guilt but she really has it repressed.

She is having a B-Day party for our youngest - it just so happens that the judge awarded my visitation starting then and she called acting nicely for me to give up the weekend. I do not know what to do. I don't want to change my weekends since it is from the courts. I thought about bringing her by for the party and taking her back with me after. My wife is going to have the OM there and only invited me because she needs something from me. Any thoughts?

Hi again Joe,

I understand the emotional rollercoaster you're on,we all do.I am on one myself but I just let he feelings come and they eventually go.I don't remember if you mentioned being on AD's? I am and it is helping me.

I guess if I were you,I might consider dropping off your D at the b-day party and pick up after,don't stay since OM will be there but also definitely don't change your weekend.That will only give your WW her way and will start a precedence of how she will try to manipulate you.Just explain nicely as well that it is a court order and you would like to have that time with your D.Expect that she may blow up at you for not getting her way.

Again,I would NOT stay at the party,I would think that it would be way too uncomforatle and not right.Remember to keep your dignity throughout.Be calm,ppolite and strong.I know it's hard but appearances are everything at this point.That's what I am doing also.Even though my WH is being a completely coldhearted remorseless jerk. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

October

Joe,

I know a few folks who have done a Plan A while separated....and I'll see if I can get Le to post to you, since she was successful and has reached recovery under those circumstances. If she is around today....I'll give her a heads up. Plan A has several parts. Stopping LBs, filling the needs she will allow (in your case you may only be able to do things indirectly, like for the children). Confrontation....you let your wife know how you feel about the affair. Exposure (you must have more proof for this step)....you tell the people close to you and your wife about the situation in a way that it cannot be misconstrued as vengeful, but an honest attempt to get your marriage back on track....and asking for their help. Sometimes under certain circumstances, Cerri has recommended that Plan A be done in a letter...and that MAY fit your circumstance. In the meantime....when you DO see her...because it's premature for Plan B....think about using Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 list because it presents you as strong instead of needy or weepy.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

As far as your visitation goes....I don't think you should give up your time with your daughter....that seems like a natural consequence and the reality of separation. It might be an opportunity to let your wife know how you feel about the affair, and your child being in his company and how painful that is (with no love busting of course). If your wife wishes to spend some time with her on her birthday, tell her that she is welcome to come by and see her and celebrate with her family.

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 07:26 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I wish I could say that I understand all that you are saying or even more so doing it. I let loose on her today in a nice way but I know that I hurt her. I let her know that it is wrong for her to be with OM espeically kissing and hugging him in front of the girls and that this is considered adultery. I told her I miss the old her that would never have done any of this and that I love her and will wait for her. Then asked if this marriage is over and should would not answer said she would have to talk to me another time.....

I think she is scared to tell me the truth. I must have hurt her so bad that she is scared off me. I am sad..so sad...my tears fall like rain and all I do is prayer for her just prayer for her....I need some prayer warriors....

Joe,

I am saying some mighty prayers....and bumping this to the top to get more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish I could say that I understand all that you are saying or even more so doing it. I let loose on her today in a nice way but I know that I hurt her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am suggesting that you appear needy and clingy to your wife and that all these relationship talks are not helping you reach your goal. You need a real Plan A....where you stop LBing, fill the needs that she allows you to, along with confronting (in a calm respectful way) how the affair makes you feel. Making judgements about right and wrong will alienate your wife. And exposing the affair. Who knows about this affair?

Have you bought Surviving an Affair? It will make all that I am saying completely understandable. Until then, please return to the homesite and do more reading so that the terms we use become familiar to you.

I am so sorry you are hurting so badly. Please take care of yourself and remember you are not alone. Most of us, have been exactly where you are one time. My marriage has survived two affairs and we have been safely in recovery for some time. Please don't give up. Right now you are following your instincts and emotions....and I promise you they will be counter-productive. You need a plan of action that will help guide you and you need a good counselor. Please stop trying to do this without guidance chere.

prayers!!!

Hi joe,

I'm sorry too for you but your plan backfired.You "let loose" and now have taken two steps back.

You really need to do a Plan B until your WW gets rid of OM and stops the affair."Plan A" too in that you need to be calm,polite and keep your dignity but like I mentioned earlier,LIMIT contact to only those needs of D.Don't discuss marriage/divorce anymore.She already has been told by you verbally how you feel about the A but now you need to get serious on her.I don't personally think a Plan A is appropriate at this stage.She is still with OM and will not be that receptive to any filling of EN's by you right now unless you already now specifically what they are but then she doesn't even want you around her that much.

Interacting with her when she is still in the A is going to only create more pain for you as you have seen.

You did what I did awhile ago and that was apearing too needy and so my WH asked for a separation because he couldn't handle that level of emotion from me.I was in so much pain and I wish I could have not been so needy but it was a horrible night for me and look what happened.

You have to appear stronger and make WW believe that you are getting on with your life with or without her,so to speak,and also you will look more attractive as such, not a needy, desperate person.

I know it is God awful that she is with OM infront of your D but you can and must do a Plan B letter now,stick to it and then perhaps you can mention to her that she is exposing your daughter to inappropriate circumstances,your divorce is not final yet right? Although I am not sure about the legality of that one,perhaps check with your/a lawyer.I thought I read somewhere that that is an issue that legal action can be taken.

It's not over til it's over and at least if you don't write an actual Plan B letter,live by it's model.For your own sanity.

P.S. Read about the Divorce busting techniques which are similar to a Plan B. They are here on the board somewhere.Ill try to find it.

keep us posted.

October

I have SAA and I am slowly reading it. I find at times that I am able to move through it and other times I am not.

I am only going to talk with WW wife about the D's. That is the only plan A that I can think of. She is going to probably on tuesday push for a fast end to the divorce. I am going to pray against it. I want it to take more time in hopes this guy will do something wrong - so far he is her prince charming....she gravitates to him like a moth to light.

Now that visitation is suppose to be setup - I am hoping that I can focus on DD's. They are so wonderful. It is nice to have them around and get to play with them. WW thinks that I am acting that I love them just for the courts... Her fog is bad man... real bad....

Any thoughts on a better plan A?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JoeCM:
<strong> .......Now that visitation is suppose to be setup - I am hoping that I can focus on DD's. They are so wonderful. It is nice to have them around and get to play with them. WW thinks that I am acting that I love them just for the courts... Her fog is bad man... real bad....

Any thoughts on a better plan A? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Joe,
Glad to see you are able to see through the fog and move ahead. As for your W's stupid conclusions as mentioned above, don't try to clarify that with her. It will just make her confused and angry.

IMHO, it may be better to just tell her that if that is the best she can visualize then you feel sorry that she has lost the ability to distinguish reality from fantasy but you know you are doing the right thing. Then just leave it at that. The point is that right now her mind does not allow her to comprehend reality. Your reality talk does not compute in the A brain/fog state of mind, so just give her something to think about as I mentioned and don't explain it nor do not try to understand her illogic.

ok?

L.

thanks.

See my other post on the prayer board; I got to go to my youngest b-day party; I was the leper to almost everyone there except the OM he came by to smirk and introduce himself; I was nice and did not say anything about him stealing my wife - even though I wanted too
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for caring; please don't stop writing; I really need to find someone that I can stand together with as a believer to believer; many of my friends say to give up that she will never come back.

Joe,

I've seen lots of seemingly hopeless situations turn around on this board. Recently, my neighbors who were in the middle of a divorce, responded to some input from me and the H ended his affair, recommitted to the marriage and they are now counseling with cerri. Don't give up hope.

Okay....let me ask you a question. How certain are you that your W is having an affair...you say she denies it. Who knows about the affair?