Beside being just a little crazy, I feel that the first real thoughts I have in the morning that come out of the blue come from God. THis morning I woke up thinking about the 2 year thing that Dr. H recommends and all of a sudden it make snse.<P>I have always had a theory that a relationship hit a rough period of time just after two years. To me it seems that the firs year is spent in the "in love" stage you get along fine nothing the other person does bothers you. Then POW! the next year you both begin to show who you really are the true personalities start to come out. The was the was it was for my H and I we had a lot of fights that year, but realized that we could deal with what the other person was really like that was when the "in love" became real love. I have seen this happen over and over. Many people will break up at that time and go on some in the throes of "in Love" get married too soon, so that actually finding out what that true person is in the first year of marriage. My SIL did that she is still married but they have a marriage I wouldn't want. The same hing happened to my daugther now she realizes that the person she married is not the person she is living with and one she doesn't want to live with. THis happens over and over. <P>I think the same things is happening with our spouses and that is why Dr. H recommends the time frame he does. If the relationship can last longer then two years then I guess we are in trouble. The first year is a year of stolen moments and no real getting toknow that person. Someimes discovery will stop this relationship. Sometimes plan a will because that feeling they are after is at home. But what happens if plan a can not break this addiction well that is why Dr. H says at least 18 month in plan B. This causes the spouse to begin to really see what the other person is like. This may take anywhere from 12 months to possible 2 years. If the spouse doesn't give up the OP about 6 months after discovery, the spouse probably will leave. The spouse has to find out who the true person is and the OP has to do the same. They may live together in there fantasy world for another 6 months to a year. No one can really keep there true self from shining through much longer then that. THis is when all the love busting start to happen. All those things we have learned to love and tolerate in our spouse now come through and they are big LB in this relationship. All those little flaws that they have ignored in the throes of being "in love" now become big mountains to deal with, the "in love" feelings are soon lost and arguing and fight start to occur. How long does this go on before a break occurs. It depends, my sil has been married 26 years. BUt she doesn't believe in divorce and she feels it is better to be married then alone. My daughter well it has just started with her but I think she want to really see if some of it is not the pressure she is under and will give it sometime after I move out to judge. Our spouses well, that is why statistics show that affairs don't last and if they do marry, that marriage doesn't last.<P>Now htis doesn't mean that they will come home to us. 1 by this time we may have emptied our love bank and gone on, 2. they may not feel comfortable enough to come back. So their is no gurantee in life.<P>Now I just wonder where I staart counting those two years. From the start of the affair 9/98 then I have 9 months to go. <BR>3/99 discovery then I have 15 months to go, or when he left 7/99 then I have 19 months to go or when I start plan B (of course you are suppose to start plan b when they move out) 1/00 2 years to go. So I guess I have any where from 9 moths to over two years. Can I wait that long nine months probably two years I don't know. And if the divorce comes through well I guess I just have to keep it from happening as long as possible I guess at least not till the nine months are up anyway. <P>I know that this is long, but what a way to wake up in the morning. <P>I am trying to keep a calm attitude today I need all the prayers and good thoughts especially around 2:30 CST.<P>{{{{hugs}}}} to all and thanks for all your great support.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

i have wondered why harley and others give the 2 yr time frame. Your theory is sensible. Authors also give the recovery phase a 2 yr time frame. When I first read of this, I gagged! No way would I wait 2 yrs-that is a long time-that is ridiculous-that is unrealistic! But as I get farther into the recovery, it seems like it is going to take at least that long. <BR>Can your daughter take steps now, early on, to improve the marriage? <BR>Thanks for sharing.

I know if someone had told me in June of 98 (H's affair began 4/98) that we would still be struggling, certainly into 2000, I'd have bugged out. But, day by day, life goes on. <P>I read somewhere that midlife crisis (which often includes an affair) can go on for 5 years, but the five years doesn't happen all at once, it is like your children's toddler years, or teenage years--sometimes are better than other and it happens one stage at time.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

I think the 2 years plus 2 years is a minimum for betrayers. I think it takes them the first two years just to figure out what they have done to themselves and their families. Once they finally do that, then they get to go through the 2 years of personal development the "betrayed" person had to start with.<P>In retrospect, I somewhat disagree with the plan "b" stuff these days. Seems to me there are a lot of people sitting around waiting to take their little cheater back with open arms at the first sign of hope. I guess part of that is because it is hard to let go. Part is also the grieving process. But I think I was doing myself a big disservice at that time. Why should I take the little s$#t back as soon as things don't work out for her? I deserve better treatment than that! Maybe when she grows up a bit, we will talk. But at this point I have re-established my boundaries, and I know from experience that she does not respect them. I can't let that happen again.<P>Really, it's the cheater who should be begging to come back and apologizing. Until they are ready to do that, I don't think they are ready to come back.<P>Also, you have to think about the consequences stuff too. I mean, if they are dumb enough to go ahead with this sort of thing, they really aren't going to learn anything if we just restore everything to the way it was as soon as they change their minds. In some ways we do them a disservice by taking them back too easily also.<P>I think once a relationship fails in this manner, fact is it is over. If the two parties involved ever decide to have a new relationship, absolutely everything is up for renegotiations. What often happens instead is the cheater get the position of power, and can negotiate, while the betrayed feels they have to concede on every point or their little cheater will leave them. That's no way to live. Let them go if they want to go.<BR>

Her was one that should not have happened. I tried to talk her out of it but she is hard head and determined to do things the hard way. I think she also felt trapped she was 6 months pregnant when they got married. Even though we told her we would help her she felt like she had no choice of course I don't know what when on between him and her. I think the stress of the last pregnancy, discovery of her father's affair and him moving out and me moving in with them has not helped. That is why she is willing to give it some more time if I ever get, no when I move out.<P>I know two years sounds like along time but I find it hard to believe that H has already been gone almost 5 months, that is almost half a year. Impossible! <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Nonplused,<P>Each to his own. I have just read your profile and I have a question. I believe you have met someone new and are moving on with your life, then why all this bitterness. You have moved on let it go. You have made your decision, you did what was right for you. Nobody can tell you if what you did was right or wrong, only you. We do what we feel is right for us. <P>I don't know if I will take him back, but if I do it will have to be something we work on together. H will not come in one day and say "I'm home" and be back in my house. It will not work that way. Not for me. But each of us is unique and what works for one will not always work for the other. <P>I trying to explain, as I see it, why Dr. H and other therapist use this time frame. I just remember the problems we went through after the first year and my observations of other couples. It seems to me the first year is all lovey dovey, then the true people come out and if you can deal with who the other person really is and they can deal with you, then you have a chance to make a go. BUt in an affair all of a sudden you realize that you are in the same relationship as before but with someone you have no history with, nothing to share with that person and in some cases you have lost parts of your family and the OP is the reason. This is when reality hit you in the face. Sometimes it will be too late. And yes the spouse will have to rekindle the relationship with the betrayed. <P>But you see I am not sure anyone here has completely gone through all of this. I think most of the ones that are in recovery haven't gone through. So I guess we will just have to wait and see what happens.<P>Is there anyone here in recovery that had to go through plan b and 2 years?<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Hi Diana,<P>Yes, I've often wondered about the 2 year timeframe, too. Your theory makes a lot of sense. Someone, somewhere probably did a study (subsidized by the government, no doubt! our taxpayer dollars at work!!) & determined that on average, it takes two years for the bubble to break and reality to surface. But, two years!!! That's a lot of life to waste.

Di,<P>Makes sense... very scary stuff all this waiting and waiting and waiting... and I believe that those thoughts in the wee hours are truly from God. What scares me is when the first thought is the song "put the lime in the coconut, then you feel better..." <P>nonplused,<P>I love reading your posts. I've never heard this type of bitterness from you: "the little cheater"... what happened??<P>~Sheryl

When my H and I were first together, there was very little conflict until after the first year. I know for me the exact moment when "in love" stopped and "love" began - and it was at about 19 months. <P>So, if the two years started when he left, I have 14 months to go. If it started when the affair began, there are only 10 months to go, but from what I have read, as long as the affair is a secret it doesn't count toward the two years.<P>I once mentioned the long 4-5 year timeframe of affairs/MLC to one of my older daughters, and she said, "Well, it's a lot less than 20 years". You know, that is true - it is far less than the number of years I have been married.

Sheryl,<P>Bad day I guess. Some stuff is surfacing here and there with old friends and what not. Apparently, after a while people think it must have been your fault if you end up doing ok and your ex doesn't. Don't ask me why but it does make me a wee bit (ok, a lot) frustrated. <P>It's not that I'm even doing all that well. Just more normal now like everybody else. And it's not like my ex is doing poorly. Just doing normal like everybody else as opposed to walking in to the glory as was supposed to be the case. But I get tired of trying to answer the question "would you go back to her" when I never left. Nobody ever bothers to ask "would you take her back", which would be easier to answer since she never asked. So topics similar to that seem to set me off. Time frames and who goes first and what to expect and all that. Even my girlfriend has bet me a 7 full hours of message that there will be an attempt by June. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to the back rub if I win (I bet no), and I don't mind the back rubs to be given if I lose, but I don't know if I want the hassles. <P>So, I guess in a very confused way I contributed to this post because I also find the two year time frame excruciatingly long, and frustrating. I did everything, including the separation and divorce, exactly as my ex requested me to. I would have waited to file either and wanted to go to counseling, etc. She said "nope, it's over, I need it to be over!" and that was it. My counselor advised me very early on the best thing for me to do was move on with my life. She did that not so much to prove a point, but because emotions follow actions and you begin to feel a lot less devastated once you see you can stand on your own two feet.<P>So now, the thought of her changing her mind 2 years later after "the new man" doesn't pan out I find both ludicrous and infuriating. I guess I should stop thinking about it, so far it hasn't happened. Maybe I will win the bet after all. But my girlfriend is normally pretty good at predicting my ex wife. So good it's scary really. Plus, the ex has started to take an interest in people we knew as a couple, including my work friends. She even went so far as to ask my mother to look after the kids for her one day. First time she had spoken to them in a year. I have thought about it way too much and haven't thought of any answers I like.<P>It'll pass I'm sure. Maybe I will stop posting for a few days until then.<BR>

It's funny, I was just thinking about this very thing at lunch today. This past Sunday was the 26th week after discovery. I was wondering where we really are. I had always read the Harley words as, "an affair usually ends and natural death between 6 months and two years after the affair comes to light." Well in my feable mind I had always set the 6 month mark as a milestone, almost another d-day. Today at lunch I realized that we've just moved into the "normal" timeframe for things to start happening. Gave me pause that we still probably have a long way to go. I am seeing what I think are positive signals from her though that we will be able to get through this. <P>She has been undecideced since discovery, though it seems that the other relationship must be very limited. I know that I've been good at Plan A since mid-September, and really good at it since early-to-mid October. I just keep trying to make home comfortable for her and be the best husband for her. Yesterday she said that the upcoming spring will be different, I can only hope!!!<P>I think that the two year timeframe makes sense, but it does seem like forever. I know that I look back over the past year, discovery in June but my thinking is that the emotional attachment had to begin last Oct/Nov., it seems like I've been dealing with this forever. I regret the past year we have missed with each other.<P>I've tried my best to keep my wife at home. As i read someone, you have a lot more control over the situation if your spouse is still coming home. I also read a quote that said, "You don't win wars by evacuating," guess that has become my motto. <P>So assuming the 6 month/ two-year timeframe, we've still got a struggle. I know it's going to run it's course and I want to be there for my wife when it ends. Best of luck with your struggles.

I tend to agree with your theory. It seems that while dating and our marriage, my H and I have gone through a very rough spot about every year and a half to two years. Not that it will help me now that I have getting a divorce.

Two years is way beyond excruciating!<P>The Harleys didn't just pull this stuff out of a hat. Dr Willard Harley has been doing this stuff for over 25 years and has counseled thousands & thousands of couples dealing directly with infidelity. They know what they are talking about.<P>Two years is what it takes for both people to realize the marriage is over or the marriage can work.<P>No one is saying we take back the betrayer "with open arms." There is lots of work to do on both parts. I for one would not take my Wife back<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi SDS,<P> I agree with you totally...but I think usually the 2yr. trouble mark is for normal relationships and not affairs...I think affairs CAN last that long but according to Harley anywhere from 6mos.to 18mos. after they are out in the open. I think there's so much more baggage added to these affair relationships that they usually self destruct sooner ,( guilt , mistrust of the other person, too high expectations.) I think Harley makes the point in SAA that they usually end quicker than expected if the other person totally lets go(Plan B)........at any rate there's not too many successes out there where the relationship started as an affair! LU

HI Chris,<P> Did I read your post correctly? Did you say you "wouldn't" take your W back? Is this new? You are going to have all the females on this board after you!!!(just kidding!!)Lu

Okay ladies, I'm free!<P><BR> (just kidding too!)<P>Oops! Sorry. I started writng a relpy & then got off into bsing at work. Hit reply without finishing it.<P>I would NOT take back my Wife IF she came back & said, "okay, affairs over, let's get on with our lives & forget everything tha happened." <P>We would have to have counseling & plenty of work to do.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

In rereading my post I made a mistake Who Me? not Me! I said a rough spot is hit after two years what I should have said is during the second year like 13th to 24th month time frame. Then is the time after the first year that eyes are open and you begin to see what the other person is like.<P>I know that two years seems along time. It took me along time to figure out DR. H timeline butthis is something my H and I talked about often too bad he doesn't remember. <P>I still don't know where to start counting time because even though discovery was in Mar/99 he told me it was over and the secret continued until July. So I guess I have a long time to go. And if reality hits what am I going to do I don't know.<P>But plan B here I come. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Chris -- I'm glad you clarified that. I was worried about you for a bit(at least a little more worried than normal). Yah, that's a good attitude. Take her back, but you've got to have some conditions of your own.<P>--DeWayne--

Somewhere in one of the veritable <I>library</I> of books that I have, one of the authors says that it's been "proven" (I can't remember the details) that the average length of time a person can maintain a facade such as so many of the OP's in our spouses' affairs do is approximately 18 months. This also dovetails with the 2 year timeframe, as it is upon discovery that the real "facade" must be maintained, particularly if the spouse lives with or otherwise regularly and openly sees the OP.<P>Think about it: For however long the affair goes on secretly, it is the excitement and the daring and secrecy that keeps it fresh and alive. Almost any book or article about infidelity states this. If it continues once it comes to light, the real work of the OP begins: The spouse will see the OP all the time and the situation becomes more realistic. The OP must work very hard to remain the fantasy person that the spouse is "in-love" with. It has to be exhausting ... similar to what Plan A can be. As the OP tires more and more of attempting to be something he or she is really NOT, cracks appear in the facade. If we are in Plan A, then we will be the ones that start to look better - the fantasy, the temporary insanity begins to fade away. If we are in Plan B, but did a good Plan A before this point, then our spouses will begin to remember the good stuff about our relationships ... disillusionment with the OP begins in either case.<P>Where we are when the spouse comes out of the temporary insanity and into clarity depends on us. If we have not moved out of a place where we would be willing to work on our marriages, then, the possibility of reconciliation exists. If we have moved on - either becoming seriously involved in a new relationship or truly giving up on our marriages, it is likely that reconciliation would not take place.<P>I am not advocating what others should do - I'm only pointing out that in the vast majority of cases no matter which marriage saving program you ascribe to, the basics of human nature help determine the timeframe. I am in this for the long haul - my committment was for "as long as we both shall live" and I'm not dead yet <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

I really think it is human nature. When we see are are with some one we like we put our best foot forward. But most of us can not keep that foot forward for very long. We slip. We show our true selves. In a real relationship this would be learning about each other and learning how to deal with the little flaws. In an affair, the spouse doesn't want the op to have flaws so when they begin to show up, CRASH! LaLa land comes apart. <P>In my case the OW told H all of her flaws but she is changing. But H didn't tell her all of his flaws and he has them. She had discovered one that she made a comment about when she came to my house to see me after my surgery. Before discovery. Anyway it was already getting on her nerves. And this flaw is heritary he draws out his stories and makes them boring, his mother does the same. So if this was already bugging her what else will. She will see that he is the savior she thought he was and then she will go back to her old self. He already can't trust her. You know all that doubt is there it is a matter of time before all this blows up in there faces. So the time line does work. we all know this.<P>The real problem then is whether we want to wait and if we are able to. Two years is along time and we won't be standing still at least I hope not. If we do we are not helping ourselves or anyone else. If we go forward we take that chance of getting over our love and moving on with someone else.<P>We are not the loser here our spouses are. If we are able to wait and when they do come back we have enough deposit in the love bank and they are able to deposit more then Great! But we must face the reality that if they do come back the love bank maybe empty and overdrawn. But we still win because we have made something of our lives. <P>But the main thing here is dealing with the time line. As each day goes by I really don't know what will happen when the time line is met. I don't know where I will be in 18 months I am not even sure where I will be 3 months. But htis time will give us time to grow and improve our selves. <P>------------------<BR>di<P>