Cerri, I really need your advice. My wife is playing games with visitation of the kids. She won't go along with the plan B rules. She says it is none of my mother in-laws business and won't talk to her. Doesn't even answer the phone. She called my office (no caller I.D.) and told me that I could pick up the kids tonight, I had to bring them back in the morning, I could have them this weekend, but she wanted them Sunday evening. She is really tryin gto bully me and is using the kids to do it. She ended it by saying that she was filing for divorce tomorrow and we'd have to work out visitation in court.

I have gotten some good legal advice from my attorney, what do you think i should do. I did all the stuff I was supposed to do in plan B and it seems to have pushed her over the edge. She keeps telling me that I'm being controlling and she wasn't going to play this game. That if I wanted to save this marriage, I was going about it the wrong way. I know not to listen to her, and i can dismiss nearly all of it. But what do you think i should do? Do I take her to court and get a temporary order? Do I let her serve me? What about the kids?, she is shamelessly using them as pawns, if I don't go along i don't think she will let me see them. Do I go along to avoid a fight? Do I stand up to her and take this to the courts? What do i do? I'm still trying to save this and she is going for the throat. Please advise.

WMWB take it easy and realize that she is just trying to goad you into breaking NC by threatening you with filing for divorce. Remain calm, respectful and silent when she tries to get in your face or on the telephone. Don't let her smell your fear for she will try to use it to manipulate you.

I don't remember - do you have a signed agreement on the kid's visitation? And why pray tell, did you listen to her? Hang up man!

<small>[ November 06, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Hey I just had this image that popped into my head that I was in drag with a blond wig and a five o clock shadow. Serves me right for introding into a thread specifically calling for Cerri. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You wrote:

"...that if I wanted to save this marriage, I was going about it the wrong way."

What? So there's a right way is there? I wonder
what she thinks it is.

You have previously indicated that your W may look at this site and the contributions of you and others. Also that she doesn't like it and feels that the Plan A / Plan B thing is manipulative and controlling. I can see that just calling them "plans" could look that way.

What would I say to your wife? Something like this...

Hi there. MB is committed to trying to save marriages. That means we're not taking sides for one spouse and against the other - we're always hoping they'll get back together. The natural reaction of a spouse who's spouse is having an affair is anger, bitterness and resentment. What Dr Harley says is that that may be natural but it won't bring your spouse back - most likely it'll drive them away. Makes sense to me.

Instead he suggests showing willingness to work on the marriage, stop "lovebusting" and try to meet the other person's emotional needs. I really can't see this as manipulative. It's helped my M and I don't know why I never thought of it before.

WMWB has tried this but to be frank he found it very hard and didn't do very well. The resentment kept showing. MikeC2 and others gave him some pretty brutal telling off about it. But hey the guy loves you and is churned up right now so let's not be too rough on him.

The idea behind "No Contact" is simply to stop the hurt. In a sense it's also to force you to make a choice. I would say that is manipulative but only in the sense that we all manipulate each other. We attempt to influence each other by our words and actions. But it's NOT controlling. Only you can decide whether to work on your marriage.

WMWB if your W reads the above I hope it helps. If not I DO NOT suggest that you say it to her.

Nice hair, CoffeeMan - Who does your color? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

WMWB:[/b] My wife is playing games with visitation of the kids. She won't go along with the plan B rules.[/b]

Yes of course she is, it's in the script. She needs to see if you are serious about the A being too painful and needing to have n/c or if she still has enough credits with you to continue to yank your chain and get a response.

If she didn't she might get worried and rethink what she's doing (feels pretty lonely being truly cut adrift) but since you continue to engage, the anchor that allows her go her own way trashing her marriage and family is still firmly in place. She knows she hasn't done irreparable damage, so she can play with this new relationship and keep you in the background.

The Plan B rules are not for her, they are for you. As in all things marriage (except for the conditions for recovery prior to a WS coming home) you can REQUEST she honor your need for n/c, you can't DEMAND it. You can however - and you must - enforce those boundaries on your end of the deal. You can't stop her from attempting to contact you or from ignoring the boundaries, you can refuse to engage.

Takola sent me something she wrote to someone a while ago talking about this same thing. (You're not the only one who struggles with n/c) She said something to the effect of "What do you do when your WS calls and gets your attention on the phone?"

Her mentee replied, "Say hello? Laugh? Tell the WS off and to not call me?"

Tak (most likely rolling her eyes and gnashing her teeth) once again explained the concept, "No, you do this, 'click.' "

That is exactly what you do. If she calls you at work, you ignore anything and everything she says and you GENTLY hang up the phone.


She says it is none of my mother in-laws business and won't talk to her.

Mmmmmm..... and why might that be??? Perhaps she doesn't want mom questioning her plans and whereabouts because that might expose what she is doing with OM in all its ugliness???

I assume your MIL is the intermediary?


She called my office (no caller I.D.) and told me that I could pick up the kids tonight, I had to bring them back in the morning, I could have them this weekend, but she wanted them Sunday evening.

And if you refused to talk to her, you wouldn't know this now would you? HANG UP THE PHONE!!! (Gently of course)

She is really tryin gto bully me and is using the kids to do it. She ended it by saying that she was filing for divorce tomorrow and we'd have to work out visitation in court.

Uh huh..... she isn't liking not getting her way and she really isn't liking the possibility of her family knowing her schedule and actions and whereabouts. So, are you going to enable her to continue doing what she's doing by caving in and having these discussions or are you going to stand for your marriage and your kids and refuse to play her game by her rules?

I have gotten some good legal advice from my attorney, what do you think i should do.

I'm not an atty (good thing, I'd be really scary then!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) so I guess I want to know what advice you got on what topics. As I said, I think YOU need to enforce your boundaries. Expecting her to stick to them is like letting a bunch of 7th graders decide if they are going to follow classroom rules or not.


I did all the stuff I was supposed to do in plan B and it seems to have pushed her over the edge.

'Scuse me?? Could you show me where you've done a good Plan B for more than say .... ohhhh...... 24 hours.....?? And 24 hours does not a Plan B make, my friend. You have not.

AND Plan B is about you not about her. I can't tell you how many clients and mentees I've dealt with in the last week who refused to either go to Plan B or who went too late or who wouldn't summon the courage to do it well who are now telling me they don't care anymore, they just want out of the marriage and away from the pain, they are finished with their spouses. I know you don't believe it can come to this - but I'm telling you it will. It is the inevitable progression. And when you get to that point and you start telling me that you don't want the marriage even if she begs you to reconsider - L&C and I are going to hunt you down and, and, and...... well, it won't be pretty!!

She keeps telling me that I'm being controlling and she wasn't going to play this game.

Ummmmm..... let me see.... She is the one having the affair, the one who is lying to her family and probably her friends, the one who left the home and disrupted everyone's lives, the one who is trying to FORCE you to let her abandon her vows and commitments..... and you are the one who is controlling. Huh! Interesting.

And of course - if you were maintaining n/c you wouldn't hear her say those things. Re read my sig line - you MUST ignore the things a WS says - it is spoken under the influence of an addiction.

That if I wanted to save this marriage, I was going about it the wrong way.

And the right way is to sleep with the neighbor?? Oh yes, that makes a lot of sense.

IBut what do you think i should do? Do I take her to court and get a temporary order?

For what?

[Do I let her serve me?

You can't stop her from doing so. But I wonder if you weren't having these daily arguments if she would be less likely to feel the need to strike out at you? I could be wrong, she might file anyway, as I said, you can't stop her. But if you get into a legal tangle the pain you are feeling now is going to double - at the very least. You need to be creating that buffer zone, taking care of you, and protecting yourself.


What about the kids?, she is shamelessly using them as pawns, if I don't go along i don't think she will let me see them. Do I go along to avoid a fight?

What is your atty saying about this?

Now why is it that when I tell BS husbands to take the kids and leave the house in Plan B there is a huge uproar with everyone saying it's against the law to do that - take the kids, that is. And yet, time after time, day in and day out, WS moms take the kids and refuse to let the dads see them. Does anyone else see the double standard here?

I would get an temp order for half custody (at least) if she is playing those kinds of games. We have a policy in this country that we don't negotiate with terrorists - I would say that's a darn good policy for marriages too. If she is using the kids as pawns it is despicable at best, but you can't give in to terrorist tactics. Do what you have to legally to have access to your kids.

Disclaimer - I do think this is something you need to talk to Jenn about though - I'm telling you what I would advise, but nothing (well ok - almost nothing) gets me cranked like working with someone on a good plan and then having it trashed her on the boards. I will reiterate again - I think you need to be talking with her far more frequently - there is no way I would work with someone in your position only once a month.

Do I stand up to her and take this to the courts? What do i do?

Try the "Click" method first and then see what happens. If she begins to deny you access then talk to Jenn and your atty. I would say take it to court, but I would make darn sure you were doing a real Plan B (that means for more than 2 weeks) first.

C

Cerri, thank you for responding. I realize you are a liitle frusterated with me lately, so thank you for putting that aside and helping me out.

I think I mis-spoke in my post, it isn't my mother-in-law that i set up as my intermediary. It is my step-mother that i set up. She is in my camp, but of any relative on my side of the isle I thought WW would be most comfortable with her. I went to pick up the kids after work yesterday, I don't have anyone close enough to our town to do it but I'm working on this. I asked W as i was loading up car seats: "So, you are filing for D tomorrow huh?" She got this absolutely stunned lookon her face and said very emphatically that NO! she was wsn't filing anything. She was going to call about mediation so we could set up a firm enforcable schedule with the kids for visitation. She wanted to be clear that she wsn't going to file anything. Now, keep in mind, a mere hour and a half earlier she told me that we'd be in court trying to figure out visitation and that she was filing and to expect to be served today.

My attorney told me that I should do anything i have to do to keep pher from creating a new "norm" or pattern for where the kids reside. He said that if the courts recognize a pattern of them "living" with their mom and only visiting me, I will be much less likely to get even shared custody. I don't think my wife is a bad mother, so don't get me wrong, but I'm only conserned about my boys. She is throwing their lives into a tailspin. All I want is for their lives to be as stable as possible. So, my question is, do I go to the courts and get a temporary order to force issue of the kids staying with me in the home. And, for what it is worth, We do have a signed agreement about visitation with the kids. In that agreement it is stated that the biys will sleep in their own beds at home in most cases (I forget exactly how it is worded) but that we'd share weekends. She signed it and adhered to it for about a week. Now it as if that agreement doesn't even exist. She makes and breaks plans on a whim. My thought was that I we had a court order dealing with visitation, that would take her only card off the table and she'd have no other choice than to talk to my step mom. Now she acts like "...well if we don't play by my rules, you don't get to see your kids." I think we have to do something to keep the kids from being pawns in this.

The only way she can break agreements is if you allow her to. It takes two and you need to accept your half of the responsibility for that.

First of all, if you were really in n/c PlB and she needed to go through someone else to discuss changes to the plan she would have a far more difficult time insisting that she get her way.

Second everytime you agree to her desire to change plans and let her do so you become every bit as much to blame for the plan not working as she is.

So she doesn't like the intermediary? Bummer for her - she can choose to work that way or to not interact with you at all.

I agree completely with what your lawyer says, very good advice. You can go to court to get an order, but it's really only a piece of paper. Enforcing it is up to you (not the courts, contrary to popular opinion) and so even if you do that you'll be right back at this place of needing to set and keep boundaries. She will still try to change whatever is set out in the order. The success of the court order will depend on your ability to stick to it - more so than hers.


Just say no. Better yet, say nothing. If you want her to use your intermediary then do so yourself.

How do you get something to change? You do it.

Someone asked me the other day how they should leave their affair partner. I said - It's easy, you pack up your stuff and walk out the door.

In the end that is what it comes down to for every decision, every choice, every change you want to have happen. When all the talking and rehashing is done and the dust settles change only occurs when you do it. If you want to be in PlB then it is not up to your wife to follow the rules, it's up to you.

And yes, I admit to being frustrated, but it's not personal, it comes with the territory of what I do. (See the bruises from banging my head on the desk all day every day???) I had to be out of the office about half of last week and was completely overwhelmed trying to catch up this week.

C

I am corresponding through my intermediary, but WW won't answer the phone when they call. So, I guess she doesn't get to have any interactions with me. I would enforce a court order. If it was my time to be with the kids and she refused, I'd call the police. It's that simple. And I think I'd only have to do it once for her to get the picture. That's why I say it would take her only card off the table. If she has no way to interfere with my time with the kids, then she has no choice but to go through the intermediary to arrange the details of pick ups and drop offs.

I'm not trying to base the success of this on her actions, not in the least. But right now she knows I'll do anything to have my kids as often as possible, so she exploits it and acts like a bully. If there where actual legal repercussions to her actions, I think this would become much easier quickly.

I am corresponding through my intermediary, but WW won't answer the phone when they call. So, I guess she doesn't get to have any interactions with me.

Bingo.

I would enforce a court order. If it was my time to be with the kids and she refused, I'd call the police. It's that simple. And I think I'd only have to do it once for her to get the picture.

I would pop into your local PD and see if they will indeed enforce the order that way.

I'm more concerned about you agreeing to switch plans on her whim, but I do see your problem with this.


If she has no way to interfere with my time with the kids, then she has no choice but to go through the intermediary to arrange the details of pick ups and drop offs.

How close is your intermediary to where you live?

But right now she knows I'll do anything to have my kids as often as possible, so she exploits it and acts like a bully. If there where actual legal repercussions to her actions, I think this would become much easier quickly.

Ok, I get that. What I'm wondering is how much you are agreeing to change plans when she calls you?

Well the last time, which was Wednesday night, I dropped the kids off and told them I'd be back to pick them up after work. When it was time to pick them up, my intermediary called and said W wasn't answering the phone. I called and WW answered and said "No, they are staying the night." So, I went there and rang the buzzer, but she wouldn't answer. So (like an idiot) I stood there and rang for about the next ten minutes. Finally she answered and said I had to leave and the cops are on the way. I said great, I'll go out and wait for them.

When they showed up, the little skinhead nazi that took the lead had me tried, convicted, and executed before he even got out of his car. He was arrogant and aggresive and wouldn't listen to a word I said, wouldn't let me finish a sentance. Just scolded me on how childish this all was and that it needed to stop. He didn't care about the agreement, he didn't care about my thoughts of the best interests of the kids, he had taken her side far before he even showed up on the scene.

As a result, I was told to go home and not call her. You see, I didn't have much choice but to go along with her change of plans. When my 4 yo called me, he was crying to come home. He didn't want to stay, he thought he was going to be coming home for the night. She changed the plans on a whim, no regard for anybody else.

I stand up to her when she does this, but I don't have any legal recourse. She fills the cops head with some sob story and they won't even listen to me. I see no other option than an enforcable court order. Believe me, I don't even want to go there, I'd love to keep this out of the courts, but I just don't think I can count on her to keep her word.

Oh, by the way, L&C has been looking for you.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

[/qb]
[/QUOTE]WMWB - ummm how many of us have to say this? [/QUOTE][/QB]


Yeah, yeah, yeah...

I know, and I think I'm going to do that. It just makes me nervous, especially with this cop that is firmly planted on her side. This is a small town, with a small PD. Cops are just people too, and humans being humans... I'm worried about a negative predisposition being formed among officers within the department towards our situation in general and me in particular. To put it bluntly, I'm afraid that the general response will become "...oh damn it, he's just being an a**hole to her again, lets go round him up..." whether it's me who calls or her. All I want is an officer who is objective, and I think if I start singling out partucular officers as being biased (which has been suggested... you know who you are! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) they general consensus will be that I'm a trubble maker.

Now I will go in and ask what the department policy is regarding enforcement of child custody orders, but as far as trying to explain my story and trying to make them understand what I'm doing and why... I think that is a recipe for disaster.

<small>[ November 07, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

they general consensus will be that I'm a trubble maker.

And they would be wrong because...... why????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It is true that our legal system in general is predisposed to women. I would bypass the local PD if you've already had issues with them, and go to the county officers - the sheriff's office. Not just for info on what will happen if she violates orders but for when you need to call for assistance.

And yeah, I would just say that you are in the process of getting temp orders for seeing your kids and you want to know what kind of support you can expect in enforcing them. I wouldn't go into the A and all that - you look like a jealous lunatic - and one who is dangerous, no doubt.

Now about the orders - is there some reason you are not going for full custody where she gets visitation? You have the house - she left. Talk to your atty about it and see what s/he he says. Oh! And btw, if you want to shop a little for attys I know a really good one out your way. Gets stuff done and is very concerned with what the client wants and needs.

C

WMWB Cerri has given excellent advice now it is up to YOU to go ahead and follow it.

LEARN from your experience, and don't put yourself again in the same situation for it damage your chances for custody if your marriage goes under.

If you deviate and improvise instead of following Cerri's advice, you have no one to blame but yourself.

Cerri, i'm going to send you an email, I have some questions for you that I would prefer to be not so public. Thanks.

Nothing in my mail box <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> - go ahead and send any time. You have the address? help@saveyourmarriagecentral.com

C

I really feel for you, but man you have to THINK before you react.

You wrote...

"...Wednesday night, I dropped the kids off and told them I'd be back to pick them up after work."

This must be wrong. Your Stepmom should be picking them up.

"When it was time to pick them up, my intermediary called and said W wasn't answering the phone."

Your Stepmom needs to understand the principles. She's asking you to make contact? If not then what is she asking you to do? It's Stepmom who should go round and collect the kids. If she's not able to do this, find another intermediary. No contact means no contact.

"I called..."

What happened to Plan B?

"...and WW answered and said "No, they are staying the night. So, I went there and rang the buzzer, but she wouldn't answer. So (like an idiot) I stood there and rang for about the next ten minutes."

What happened to Plan B?

Suggest you take time to plan your moves, not react instantly to everything as soon as it happens. You could have maintained no contact, let the children stay the night and then gone to the sherriffs office with a complaint about violation of the agreement. Your wife's would then be the one in the wrong.

Often the art of negotiation is knowing when to do nothing!

What's going on?

Are you there? How are you?