Hi. I had posted this to Plan A B, and it was suggested I start here. I have known of my wifes sexual adventure for quite some time now but I am having difficulty and need some support and perhaps guidance from those with some experience.
thanks for your ears. I mean eyes!

Plan A/Plan B - Long story!

rmcleod -

That's a heartbreaking story. Your situation is so complex and difficult that I wouldn't begin to think I'm qualified to give you advice, but two things stand out to me.

1. MB principles will not succeed where a spouse suffers from mental illness.

2. I don't see any evidence of any real effort on her part to "get help" or even that she is remorseful or cares about you or your welfare. "Get your finances in order" is not an encouraging response.

I feel bad for you. I know I personally could not deal with this and would be gone, but I admire your compassion and persistance. Whatever you decide, please take care of your health, mental and physical.

I hope you get some more responses. I'm not good at this but want to give you a little bit of insight...

First, I do not agree with theuglytruth saying MB principles will not succeed when mental illness is involved. There are people on this board w/mental illness and also people who have a spouse w/mental illness. I'm one of them.

Second, you CANNOT make a dx on your own. If you read up on a lot of the mental illnesses, they all have some issues that are the same. It really does take a trained psychiatrist to make the distinction.

My WS is bi-polar and so is my sister. If you WW is like my sister, I would say to move on. I say this because my sister CANNOT stay on a regimen of any kind and therefore, does not become stable for any length of time. My WH is starting to stabilize -- he was dx'd and has been put on this med or that med in January of 2002. So, you see, it has taken over a year to find the right combination and acceptance on his part.

Your WW first needs to recognize she has a problem. It seems to me she is too imbalanced at this point to see this. The high she is getting from this behavior feels better to her than the pain of facing her demons. You are in Canada, right? I do not know how the health system works there. As far as my sister goes, we had to have her committed. If your WW is putting herself and/or you or your kids in danger, you can have her committed (at least here in the US you can). You might have to take this drastic measure so the docs can try to level her out. If, once they have her somewhat leveled out (which this takes time), she starts wanting to face her demons and rid herself of her behavior, she might agree to stay longer.

I hope you can get her help. You are in the situation I am in... I have to keep reminding myself that I am not dealing w/a person who functions and thinks like a person whose chemicals are not out of whack. You will have to find all the patience you ever thought you could possibly have -- pray for this. I have prayed hard and it has gotten better -- God is hearing my prayers.

Your WW is in a place where hitting rock bottom might happen soon. If she doesn't or hasn't ended up w/a STD, she might end up w/Hep C. You are very wise to not go there and protect yourself.

I guess all I can say, is check into your options w/the Canadian health care system to see if you can have her committed. She will NOT like this and will more likely than not hate you in the beginning and say very mean and spiteful things -- but, remember, it is the illness talking.

Peace be with you....

I could be wrong about this, but I believe even the Harleys have expressed doubt as to the efficacy of the MB principles when mental illness is involved. If I'm wrong about this, I apologize.

In any event, I in no way meant to imply that rmcleod should give up. That's somthing only he can decide. But I do think that until the sexual addiction type behaviors and underlying mental and emotional issues are dealt with, any attempts at marital recovery are going to be extremely tenuous at best. I'm afraid I really don't see much in her behavior that indicates any effort at improvement or even recognition of a problem.

rmcleod, perhaps you might address your situation to Cerri on this board (put her name in the title for a better chance at a response) or her own site to get some more expert help. I think a lot of us here really feel for you but are afraid of giving you some wrong advice on this very delicate and dangerous situation.

I do not agree with theuglytruth saying MB principles will not succeed when mental illness is involved.
Okay, maybe it should be "uncontrolled mental illness."
Once the problem is controlled, then MB principles may work.

Your WW first needs to recognize she has a problem. It seems to me she is too imbalanced at this point to see this.
Exactly!

I have to keep reminding myself that I am not dealing w/a person who functions and thinks like a person whose chemicals are not out of whack.
ANd until those chemicals get back "in whack" MB principles will do no good (for the wayward spouse). They will work for the bs.

but I believe even the Harleys have expressed doubt as to the efficacy of the MB principles when mental illness is involved
You are correct. Just as an alcoholic "doesn't have a problem" until he sees a problem, someone with mental problems will not understand certain things until they get sorted out in some way.

Chris...

Is as usual correct. Dr. Harley was involved in treatment of drug addicts for many years, and states that until drugs, alchol, or other addictions are addressed the MB approach will not work. I believe untreated or unstablized individual with mental health issues fall into the same category. Not only do they not see their problem, they are unable to adequately assess what their behavior is or is going to cost them, therefore, NORMAL cause and effect efforts such as MB probably will be unsuccessful.

I do hope your W gets help.

God Bless,

JL

Your wife is a serial cheater who feels no guilt in being promiscuous. If she does not want to change there is nothing you or any counsellor can do. My advice is to get off this emotional rollercoaster ride and move on with your life and the life of your children. She will need to hit bottom before she will want any help. Your best way to help is to not help her.

Yes it is a difficult and complex situation. I think my own mind is in limbo and that is contributing to the state of disconnect I am feeling each day. All of your replies have valid insight and I am grateful that you've had the courage to even comment and thank you for your heart felt words.

I would like to add: my W has seen glimses of her self and does understand that there is a problem, it just that she is not in that state more than about 10% of the time. A lot of the time she just shows low self esteem, and a feeling of unworthiness. I had become one (actually several) of her favorite online hopefuls and she is a whole different girl when she is making time with the guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I do realize that there is little I can do at this point to work on my marriage. I am looking not so much for a progress chart as a proper stance to take with her. I think what I'm finding so painful is that after so long walking with her by my side and slowly working toward peace, joy, and love that as the depression became evident I was almost happy, as I thought that now we will get the opportunity to deal with these deep emotional issues. Thats when it turned ugly and she walked away! Well, snuck off and returned with a happy face actually.

Yes, I should be the center of focus right now, but the thought of standing back and watching (I know, don't watch!) her crash and burn is tearing the very fabric of my soul. In a way, that is the path I choose by withdrawing from her over the last few years. It just painful to watch it unfold in this way. I have and do give space to the idea that this is the way for her to come to deal with the past, as she has not responded to my efforts at openess and honesty. Her honesty shows up as emotion and she cannot hide herself from my inquiring mind. that sounded kinda goofy? I feel that perhaps this exposure is a problem for her and hopefuly she will stay with her psych doc while at a distance from me.

I have a tremendous desire to care for her right now. Yoshs' words seemed a little harsh but he may be right. It may well be that I am not what she needs right now, because shes tried that and it didn't work. I wonder if thats what shes thinking?

I am torn as to whether to give her some of myself, help her set up new home etc., which will no doubt leave me vulnerable to evidence of other men. Or engage strict NC policy. Or just stay away but repond in small way to her needs as she expresses them.

I think it may be best for me to not continue as I become even more attached as I write. Besides my daughter just came home and since tomorrow Nov 11 is Rememberance Day (Canadas Veterns Day) we can stay up late!

Thanks again for your comments.
I will endevour to stay focused on my life, and by the way, the Salsa lessons are going great! I danced with a young lady last Friday who squealled every time I spun her more than once.
Oh yeah baby! I think I spun her a hundred times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What an ego trip!
See, I'm learning.
Rusty

rmcleod - You will probably find that there is little you can do to change her. Your main focus needs to be on you and your family. Yes it is heartwrenching to watch someone destroy everything, but you have no power over her decisions. Hopefully she will continue with doctor and get better, but you will do better to realize that she may not, and it's out of your hands. Keep posting here, it really helps.

<small>[ June 11, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Rusty Nail ]</small>

Rusty,

This may not help much but I just read your original post and was absolutely stunned at the similarities to my own situation (long term marriage, similar ages but a bit older, W mental illness, several PA's and EA's in the past but not(?) currently, W family history, etc.), to say nothing of certain words you have used that would virtually identify me if I elaborated, although there are some large differences as well. My situation is not currently quite as severe as yours, but has a strikingly similar set of facts,etc. and for me is eerie. It is hard for me to believe how you are handling all this as well as you seem to be. I know I did for a while, but only for a while. In some ways we are ahead of where you are and in some ways exactly where you are. In short there are others out there who really can understand and relate well to your situation, because we have experienced it.

My W has been on significant meds for her mental illness for several years. I don't recall if you said your W was on meds, but for us there was no possibility of resolving anything until her illness was reasonably stabilized, and even then to me resolution seemed a remote possibility - it became increasingly difficult even to want to make an attempt. After many years we are now in last ditch MC - failure to resolve the problems will re-commence separation/divorce proceedings. We are going to continue with MC one day at a time (we have now both made that committment).

Anyway for what it's worth, here are a few of my thoughts.

Make sure you take care of your own mental health. Don't underestimate how important that is. I tried to put all my efforts into care of W and children after onset of the illness but little into me, and while I think I was successful, it drove me to the depths of the brink of suicide some years ago - not a good place for anybody to be and certainly one I never want to re-visit.

I don't know what legal jurisdiction you are in, but if it comes to final separation/divorce, don't assume it will necessarily be straight forward. I had similar thoughts (we do have a decent level of wealth accumulated) but soon found out that dealing with someone who is mentally ill, but not mentally incompetent, and her (in my case, disgusting excuse for a human being) lawyer can give rise to some incredible and very painful allegations that would have to be dealt with.

MC is also a very painful and difficult process especially one person is mentally ill, even if the illness is fairly well under control. Obviously both persons have to be willing to go through and endure the process to the end. I know I concluded we would never come to any understanding without help. It doesn't seem that your W is anywhere close to being ready for MC.

Finally, MC is expensive, but a heck of a lot cheaper than lawyers!

I know I haven't said much that is not likely obvious, but as I said, given the astonishing similarities and coincidences of our situations, I had to post something.

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: 952 ]</small>

Thanks to all for your replies.
The common thread seems to be:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">back off</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">look after myself emotionally and physically</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">continue to express my thoughts here</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">move on to other things - finances etc.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">distance myself from my wifes care</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC - I hate this part - I think this is a requirement for my day to day life, but I also hate the thought of not giving her a hug if I see she needs one.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">provide a happy home for the teens</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">essentially - get a life</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
This will be a new thing for me. Actually caring for myself. I can see where it will be a good example for the teens.

The NC thing is still an issue in my mind as I do want to to feel someone does care for her, but I am afraid it may be a necesasry thing if I continue to have trouble emotinoally disconnecting fron the whole situation.

My once a month counselor told me today I should start to grieve for the death of my marriage and I guess this is the thing that I have been reluctant to do. I want to be married I love the touch and feel and .. well ... time for salsa class.


I will likely not post for a week as I would like to try to give the whole process a shake. I will check in then or if something new comes up. Please post any thoughts you may have as I will take peek if there is a new reply.

See you later.
Rusty

Dear god in heaven and goddess earth, please bless the people who support and deal with those who are in such terrible straits. Bring them wisdom, strength, and courage to bear the burden they carry.

Rmcleod, your story touches my heart at an incredibly poignant level; someone I love is much like your wife. Her husband is a strong man who's near his breaking point, and I pray for both of you, and for 952 as well.

All I can say is that the first rule of being a lifeguard is that you make sure YOU are safe before you help someone who's drowning, because they're not able to recognize whether you're helping them or drowning them more.

Please, become a team with the professionals. Let them breat the brunt of the worst of this, while still making sure that you understand and agree with each phase of the treatment. You are in over your head, in over the heads of even the most talented amateurs on this board, and even while we all pray for you and know that the MB principles will heal your marriage afterwards, you're a long way from "afterwards" right now.

Stay here and let us support you. And go to your family and friends for support as well. Your wife is in the grips of a terrible illness, and you need all the help you can possibly get. You are being terribly hurt by this, and so is she. Your family deserves to know and to stand by you through these terrible days.

Ok, I read the history, and I'm not seeing the huge disconnect between this story and so many others we see here. Yeah, she's a serial cheater - so are many others. Yes, she's probably an addict So was someone very dear to me and those things were addressed with a combination of MB, 12 steps, therapy and very importantly the my willingness to do some very hard work.

I think this is very much a case that MB strategies can address. Unless you have a psychiatrists diagnosis of BPD you can't say that she has it. And, infidelity combined with her depression issues (very likely tied intimately to her dissatisfaction with the marriage) can look like all kinds of personality disorders. I would definitely suggest that your wife is a sexual addict, and I would read everything you can about that - begin here - www.sexhelp.com

And I would insist on a therapist that has trained with Patrick Carnes in the specialty of handling sexual addiction. You can get a referral from their organization - let me know if you need help figuring out how to do that.

There are many many things you can do using MB strategies to address this situation and Plan B is one of them but I don't know that the time is right for that yet. Yes, you'll need to change things a bit - but that doesn't invalidate their use.

So sorry to hear you are struggling with this. It is certainly the most horrifying thing you will experience and you will definitely need concentrated professional help from someone (or better yet, several someone's working together) who has experience and success with what you are facing.

C

Rmcleod, Cerri is the only professional who posts on this forum. Listen to her.

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Nail ]</small>

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Nail ]</small>

cerri, thank you. I did take your advise and sent an email to sexhelp asking for info/referral re a local counselor.

If you don't get an answer, be sure to call them. The last time I went to them for a referral for a client I had to call twice - those slip ups happen, so stay on top of it.

Are you sure I should be staying involved. And if so, to what extent?

Ok - probably you need to know a little about me and my stance on things - and then you can decide if it works for you.

I'm a marriage coach by profession - that's my site in my sig line. I trained with Willard Harley and rely heavily on his concepts and methods. I did some training with Michele Weiner Davis and I am a trained coach (not a therapist or psychologist) by profession. I do volunteer mentor coaching for the MB Weekend follow up program and I hang out here because I love what I do and because experienced posters helped me get through really bad times in my marriage. I believe in giving back.

I do marriage coaching of all sorts and some minimal life strategy coaching but I specialize in infidelity. (I have fantasies of doing coaching like I see on other sites when I'm checking out the industry - you know - "find your career bliss" <sigh> but it seems that is not my path in this obsessive overachieving lifetime. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Along with that I have an avid interest in sexual addiction. I've worked with a few addicts and I've done some mentoring of individuals whose spouse's are addicts. It's a topic very close to home for me, so I get pretty passionate about it.

So that's what I do. My personal philosophy is that marriage is a commitment and you don't get to quit just because you don't feel like doing it any more or because the feelings are gone. However I don't do misery very well personally and so I wouldn't expect someone to stay in a situation that is painful or offensive after they have taken what I consider to be the necessary steps to change that situation.

Reading the information you wrote here today, I think you probably have done much of what I would suggest in Plan A. I think I have some questions still and I'll ask those at the end.

Now about how much you should be involved - I have issues with the codependency concept. Not in totality but some things don't work in my world view of how to heal and recover following infidelity. We can talk about those at length if you like, I know I've posted about it before but unfortunately my posts are scattered here there and everywhere. I should bookmark them, but I don't.

So yeah, I think it would be fine to check into who is available in your area so that you have that information handy. I don't think you should hound your wife with the information, but I see no problem with being prepared in the eventuality that she decides to seek help.


Please, will someone tackle these Q's. Even if its to say "no answer for you, tough call and good luck." I can deal.

Always happy to answer questions. And btw, I want to say thanks for being concise and putting in white spacce!!!

I guess the plan A/B thing was ansd: plan B later. Maybe next life. lol

I probably want to revisit this - I'll save that for the end.

I still have know idea of method or stance to take with her?

Ok, here's the deal - if you are in PlA you must behave as if you are. That means, calm, courteous and respectful at all times. No demands, no disrespect and no losing your temper. You must also be honest about how you feel regarding the things she is doing. (See my list of feeling words and the format for using them - they are on the front page of this board today)

I assume that you have told your families and other pertinent individuals who would encourage her to do the right thing and seek help for her problems.

The other thing you need to do in PlA - and this is really hard - is to not enable her. Don't rescue her from the consequences of her actions. This is where I think the codependency stuff you have been doing will be very helpful. Being calm, courteous and respectful does not mean that you are a doormat.

The protection of your kids needs to be above all else. So we should talk about that.

do I abandon plan A as inconsequential? I can't compete with a couple of nights out paid for by the next guy in line. and I assure you they are lined up.

PlA will not repair or restore your marriage. It's nothing more than a negotiating strategy to encourage your spouse to end the addictive behavior and recommit to the marriage. She isn't going to let you meet her most important EN's, she might let you meet others, but those are the things you would do anyway - FS, DS, FC......


It may well be that I am not what she needs right now, because shes tried that and it didn't work. I wonder if thats a valid thought?

Valid thought? I dunno. What's an invalid thought? I do know that it is one that we all have when our spouse is unfaithful. And I know that it is particularly torturous when they are addicts and serially unfaithful.

In reality, you are the only one who it is in her best interests to be with. The problem is she can't see beyond her own pain and the siren call of the addiction to know that. I suspect she has moments of clarity but that they are so overridden with the self loathing she must feel that she can't admit them even to herself.


Should I just give her more time? Time for me to recuperate, and perhaps leave her alone and consider her future. Or would it be better to get others invloved with her and possibly intervene in her life?

Who have you told and what actions have they taken?

get inlaws involved? cept for depression, they have no real idea yet.

Ok, sorry didn't see that before. Yeah, you need to tell them. The way you do that is like this. "My wife has become involved with other men, she shows all the symptoms of a sex addict out of control. These are the things I know and this is how I know them. I love her very much. I want to save my marriage and keep our family together, but there is no way I can do that while she is engaging in these behaviors. Please encourage her to seek help with a trained specialist in sexual addiction and to recommit to our marriage."

Now - before you do that we need to talk about the fallout you can expect, ok?

Should I even be asking these q?'s here or should I just write a letter to her psych doc and step away from the sit?

You should be asking and doing. This is where the codependency thinking and I part ways. This is your marriage, you and your children have a vested interest in her healing and in repairing your marriage. You need to do what you can - and it is possible to do so without being addicted to her problem.

Ok - now how are you doing? You talk about being ready to walk away - are you running out of steam for dealing with all of this?

It sounds like your wife is not living at home - is that the case?

How are your kids dealing with all this? What do they know? Do you have girls or boys?

I'm here tomorrow, I'll be catching up on stuff and should be available to answer questions. Let me know what I can do to help.

You should also know that I was a WS a long time ago and I've been the BS too. I have a lot of personal experience with addictions in the family (my entire family and that of my xh have alcohol and/or drug problems) and SA has hit close to home too. Pretty much I've seen or done it all.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Nail ]</small>

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: Rusty Nail ]</small>