I'm using this from a real life scenario that's been giving me an ulcer for a few months. I thought that more people than the person I first told this to could benefit from hearing this.

There's a BS who has a situation that I've been helping with. I will use this as an example, but I've noticed it with more than one BS.

This BS wraps her 'victim' status around her like a mantra that justifies any and all treatment of her WS. To her, it does justify everything. If I try to talk to her about her behavior, she always brings the conversation back to his behavior. So, she slings arrows at him all the time. Slams his fingers in doors. Not physically, of course, emotionally. She uses her tongue as a sword that causes more damage than any door ever could.

She's punishing him. She's also getting vengence. She's also shooting herself, and her children in the heart. (Notice I didn't say foot.)

In his mind, contact with her is becoming associated with pain. He is associating her with pain and discomfort. He is not associating her with safety, love, or family. She is becoming associated with negative things that people try to avoid, not with the good things that people come home to.

No one, no matter how in the wrong they personally feel, is going to subscribe to a life of pain and punishment. He has no idea how long it will go on...nothing upon which to base any hope that it will stop when he does come home. He has no hope for their marriage. It's not that he loves OW or wants a life with her. It's not that he prefers OW to his W. It's that he can't choose his W because it's painful. SHE has closed the door to their marriage for him. It is not a viable option if he wants happiness.

What message are you sending to your spouse?

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Well it can be a much needed form of tough love if not taken to extremes. Showing the consequences for inappropiate behavior.

I am not close the situation as you are and I don't know how long her behavior has been going on.

But there has to be some letting off of anger, resentment and pain. And like it or not the wayward spouse becomes the lightening rod...fittingly since they caused the storm.

But wanting to be a martyr wanting to beat down the wayward spouse in order to build yourself back up is foolhardy.

But I do feel beyond a shadow of doubt a betrayed spouse must and should show their pain, anger and outrage upon discovery. They shouldn't become entrenched in this mode but they do need to go thru that stage rather than keep everything in.

Now if the wayward spouse is actively trying to rebuild the marriage its a whole nother story.

I know two wrongs don't make a right but you have to keep in mind the kind of message committing adultery sends as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well it can be a much needed form of tough love if not taken to extremes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tough love and punishment are two entirely separate things. If you can't separate them, you've got some problems that need addressed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But there has to be some letting off of anger, resentment and pain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm interested in hearing how transferring your pain to your spouse (in another form that they don't recognize as your pain) and adding more resentment into an infidelity situation is beneficial. Please explain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I do feel beyond a shadow of doubt a betrayed spouse must and should show their pain, anger and outrage upon discovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Showing that you have anger and taking your anger out on your spouse are also two entirely separate things. "I feel angry," is very different than "You are a Yugoslavian testicle biting blistering boil on the buttocks of humanity."

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

I hear you when you discuss this particular BS difficulty. Could be a type of syndrome, but there is at best instance a point where the BS will let it all go and just listen without the soreness. And hear the WS for what ever it takes. And understand that it was that difficult for him/her to get to this point in time and talk all about the problems, open and honest about all of it.

We are as adults already formed in our habits of reaction, hurt, chastising manners that would be best put away possibly forever, but there they are, these attitudes and behaviors that will inhibite good resolution of our problems.

But when we earnestly will put 100% effort into working out our troubled relationships, there will be a need to put forward a couple of concessions, in order to make the relationship viable, strong and good. Just seems that sometimes we do not know how to approach our spouses. And if we seem as though we are content and all is well, when it is not, well then how will we get any improvement.

Sometimes there will be anger. Surely it needs to be put aside however, to make your life progress, your marriage needs love and understanding to progress. It needs the truth as well.

Where patience and understanding abides, then so I hope all truths will come, and love will be strongest. Even though mistakes are made, we can overcome them. And in fact, having made mistakes, you may make the strongest bond you never thought was possible.

It seems as though time were important. We want to know and ask often, how long will this take? As your children ask repeatedly on a journey, when are we going to get there, what time is it, and are we there yet?

Tough love and punishment are two entirely separate things. If you can't separate them, you've got some problems that need addressed.

I beg your pardon who died and left you in charge. You made a very vague statement. You gave absolutely ZERO examples.

All you stated that there was an angry betrayed spouse love busting but still NO specifics.

That's a very broad brush you are painting with.

You have in essence told every betrayed spouse what they are not suppose to do.

IF she is angry HIS affair is the cause. Actions have consequences. You see her anger and her subsequent actions as punishment but in truth they are consequences of HIS actions. No affair no anger no love busting to deal with.

If you are going to charge she is punishing him then please be specific. Its bunk to say she is doing all the things then not list one single example. Again if she is angry he is the cause.

Secondly you have done little to nothing to define his affair. How deep the betrayal is how involved he was and how he approached recovery...if he approached it at all. What if he had a child from this relationship, gave his spouse an STD, lost his job because of the affair or so on.

You make it sound like we should feel sorry for the person who had the affair without saying why.

Its ironic you rail against the legitimate victim of the affair rather than the offending party.

He has to live with the consequences of his actions including the possibility that he has so angered her that recovery is not possible.

She has to decide how much she is willing to forgive.

Without elaborating you are making a very broad statement that is not the betrayed spouses place to punish.

The fact of the matter it is. A civil contract was broken by the wayward spouse in our legal system the betrayed spouse has a right to seek being made whole including financial punishment beyond the normal no fault divorce should it come to that.

Finally take a long look at some of the motives for affairs and you will see many have affairs to punish YES punish their spouse or for revenge for a percieved wrong.

Funny once again we attack the person wronged rather than holding the person who committed the wrong accountable.

We have no debate if not for the wayward spouses actions. No affair no consequences to deal with deserved or not deserved in line or overboard. No message on a Marriage Builder's forum.

Sorry if you break into someone's house don't complain to me when the fire a bazooka at your butt as you are trying to flee out the window...it maybe overboard but your butt isn't on fire if it never breaks into that house.

Tackie,

So what are the consequences for having an A?

If nothing, sign me up for a revenge A. Any takers on the board?

There are consequences. It is not your place to deal out punishment, though.

Define punishment.

Tak not wanting to pick a battle but if she is in a bad mood all the time that is a result of the affair.

If she is being a b*tch and not being forgiving sadly that too is part of the affair.

Both of them need to make choices. He must decide if he can accept what he has helped create in her.

She must decide if she is going to let her anger and rage destroy any chance of the marriage being saved.

But the difference is the wayward spouse makes choices on his previous choices while the betrayed spouse makes choices based on something they had basically no choice in.

There are so many levels of betrayal in an affair is guilty of many of them her rage is a result of that.

Did he have unprotected sex?
Was he hostile and withdrawn from her during the affair?
Did he used family money to support the affair?
Yada Yada Yada Yada

She has a right to be as angry at him as she wants. The consequences of that anger could be to destroy any chance of the marriage surviving.

He HAS ALREADY made that choice and risked the marriage by having an affair.

Sorry even if her actions do in the end result in divorce hers are reactions to his previous actions.

I think short of documenting that he has gone to great lengths to make amends and she has totally rejected them you can't make the argument she is punishing him. She may just be doing a very poor job of coping with the news he had an affair. She may also have prior issues with him involving trust and this may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Its unfair to judge her reactions without holding to a greater accountability his actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I beg your pardon who died and left you in charge. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When did I ever say I was in charge? Can you possibly discourse in a respectful manner?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You made a very vague statement. You gave absolutely ZERO examples..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gave an example of a man and woman. I didn't just say she was love busting, I said she was punishing her spouse. Those are also different things. Did I hit a nerve for you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a very broad brush you are painting with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Explain the unnecessary breadth I am painting, then.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have in essence told every betrayed spouse what they are not suppose to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said you shouldn't do this if you want your marriage to work. I have yet to see a single person recover their marriage under such circumstances. I also assure you those were not the circumstances under which I recovered my marriage. Were you able to recover your marriage under these circumstances (punishing your spouse)?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
IF she is angry HIS affair is the cause. Actions have consequences. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anger is one thing, what you do with it is another. Justifying your actions as caused by your spouse's undercuts your own responsibility for your own actions. If your child told you he did crack because another child does, what would you say? You need to RESPOND to your spouse, not react and not punish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You see her anger and her subsequent actions as punishment but in truth they are consequences of HIS actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, her actions are caused by signals sent from her brain to her mouth and are controlled only by her. Consequences of his actions are that his children feel he abandoned him, that his W loves him less, that she doesn't trust him, and that she feels a lot of pain. There are others. Punishment is another thing, and it's not the BSs place to punish. You are a spouse, not a parent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No affair no anger no love busting to deal with.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yea, if your spouse never does anything to upset you, you will never love bust. Blaming your actions on your spouse's action is a taker justification and a cop-out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If you are going to charge she is punishing him then please be specific. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to charge it, and I am not going to be specific. Both of them participate on these boards, and it is up to them to give them specifics on their situation - it is not up to me, and you are not owed them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Its bunk to say she is doing all the things then not list one single example. Again if she is angry he is the cause.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her anger is hers alone to do with what she will. If she wants to close the door to her marriage over that, then she can. What I'm saying is that if you want it to work, you can't be beating your spouse up.

"The beatings will continue until you come home and love me again."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You make it sound like we should feel sorry for the person who had the affair without saying why.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not taking sides, nor am I saying we should feel sorry for him. He has his own cupboard to clean out. My point here is so does she, and these actions are not conducive to saving your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Its ironic you rail against the legitimate victim of the affair rather than the offending party.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This post is not about what the WS does, it is about what the BS does. The BS cannot control what the WS does, all the BS can control is his/her own actions - and they can make or break recovery the same as the actions of the WS. Being a victim does not give you the right to pick up the stick and become a perpetrator.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Without elaborating you are making a very broad statement that is not the betrayed spouses place to punish.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Punishment is for parents and authorities. It is never your place to dole out punishment to your spouse for his/her actions. You are their spouse, not their parent or authority figure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
A civil contract was broken by the wayward spouse in our legal system the betrayed spouse has a right to seek being made whole including financial punishment beyond the normal no fault divorce should it come to that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Civil contracts are up to courts to punish the breach of, not the individual. If you break a civil contract with me, it is not my place to come to your house and break all your windows to exact punishment. I must sue you and have it done through an AUTHORITY.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Finally take a long look at some of the motives for affairs and you will see many have affairs to punish YES punish their spouse or for revenge for a percieved wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is also wrong, but does not justify the punishing actions of a BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Funny once again we attack the person wronged rather than holding the person who committed the wrong accountable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, both are at this point wronged. Just because your spouse was the 'first' one to wrong you and did it in a 'worse' (quoted words are subjective) way, doesn't mean that you aren't also in the wrong for punishing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Sorry if you break into someone's house don't complain to me when the fire a bazooka at your butt as you are trying to flee out the window...it maybe overboard but your butt isn't on fire if it never breaks into that house.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but if you break into someone's house, you are unlikely to be trying to reconcile a marriage with that person. If you don't want to reconcile, by all means, punish. If you do want to reconcile, there is a sign down this path that reads "I'd turn back if I were you."

<small>[ November 11, 2003, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Stunned,

I am not sure you got the message Tak was trying to portray. Just because your spouse had and A that doesn't give you free reign to through disrespectful Judgements, Angry Outburst etc. I have a feeling if you did that you would not be in recovery.

What Tak was trying to get across is the BS can't continue to focus the entire recovery on WS changing when they don't feel they have a safe place to come to.

My H would not have come home had he thought I was going to beat him up over the A for the next 50+ years. As a matter of fact when I was in the "revenge" phase ( I blame on my evil twin b/c I would never act like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I was on my way to divorce court.

Your S hurt you, yes. The A was wrong yes. But the point I feel Tak was trying to get across or what I got out of this is, all the blame and revenge and fault in the world WILL NOT save your marriage. It's what you do the BS to make your spouse feel that a marrige to you is attractive.

I also believe and I am sure I will get flamed for this. It took 3 people to have the A. Me for not meeting my H needs, my H for looking for someone to meet them, and OW (Hozella) who politely took the job on with great pleasure. I contributed, do you think my H would have gone looking somewhere else if I were making him happy at home? I really doubt it.

Punishment, revenge whatever won't get it. It's figuring out how to be a good spouse and making the changes to ensure it.

le

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has a right to be as angry at him as she wants. The consequences of that anger could be to destroy any chance of the marriage surviving.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one is saying she doesn't have a right to be angry. I'm saying she doesn't have a right to punish him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He HAS ALREADY made that choice and risked the marriage by having an affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His wrongs don't make hers right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sorry even if her actions do in the end result in divorce hers are reactions to his previous actions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her reactions. Bingo. They are hers and hers alone - not his. He can't force her to do anything.

T...I do agree with you...HOWEVER

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have yet to see a single person recover their marriage under such circumstances. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine has! I was pretty much like the wife in your example. I did EVERYTHING plus. I raged, I cried, I screamed, I withdrew, I lashed out.

I have stated many times, that during that first year...and yes...I mean year (maybe more) I caused just as much damage and harm to our marriage as my H did by having an affair. I too betrayed our marriage, not by infidelity, but by allowing my pain, sorrow and anger keep me from being a full loving partner. I was the VICTIM! There was no safe place for either of us.

So while I do agree, I did want to let those who are doing it "all wrong" have some hope. We don't get blueprints on how to go about rebuilding a marriage when it all crumbles at our feet. (I didn't know about MB then.) Even with an outline, we still have much to "write-in" to make it work for our individual situations and personalities.

What works for one couple, doesn't mean it will work for another. What destroys one couple, may make another stronger.

My H toughed it out with me, he stayed, I stayed...and we have a good marriage again. Sure wasn't easy for either of us, definitely could have been easier then it was...but we made it out the other side of this dark tunnel. Maybe...just maybe...it was the only way through for us...maybe not. We'll never know.

Peace.

Tak and others I did not misunderstand one single word.

Quote:

"It is NOT your place to punish your spouse"

Tak who are you to say what is or isn't the thing for a betrayed spouse to do....hence who put in you in charge. You issued a command of what a betrayed spouse could not do.

No misunderstanding at all. If I posted you will NOT tell betrayed spouses what to do I would be acting exactly as you did.

You did not say its not in the best interest of a betrayed spouse to punish you said they do not have the right too.

CLEARLY both law and theology say spouse are NOT to committ adultery. Everyone accepts that but when violated you issue a decree saying what betrayed spouses should not do.

The issue raised is not what is productive or in the best interest of a marriage facing an affair BUT instead what a BS is NOT allowed to do.

Tak you fired the first negative disrepectful comment not me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you can't separate them, you've got some problems that need addressed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are incorrect on the civil issue. Civil matters are strictly between individuals NOT society. The courts are the means for harmed party to seek recourse against the party they believed harmed them. It is the legal method of smashing out the offending party's windows.

Why do you think juries award "punitive damages" to the victim in civil law suits?

Note punitive so yes a betrayed spouse using the courts is matters of infidelity is indeed seeking punishment for the offense of infidelity. And it is sanctioned by society and law as such. The state of Georgia is a no fault divorce state but makes certain legal actions possible by the betrayed spouse in the event of adultery.

And you are wrong Tak because much of what a betrayed spouse experiences and expresses after discovery is common to all betrayed spouses.

She probably lost weight and sleep. By your argument its her fault she lost weight or sleep instead of what is commonly experienced by all betrayed spouses.

Why do so many doctors prescribed anti depressants to persons dealing with affairs? Because depression and anxiety are common REACTIONS when dealing with affairs.

Reactions are in many cases uncontrollable emotions. When suicide or murder occurs upon discovering an affair it involves an otherwise mentally healthy person reacting to the affair.

Tak you have taken sides you have squarely stated she is destroying all chances of recovery yet:

1) You have not sited one single incident only generalities.
2) You have not indicated how long recovery is or how long and deep his affair is.
3) And most important of all you have yet to say what he is doing to aid recovery.

For you and I know he may still be involved with or having continued contact with OW. He maybe telling his wife he doesn't love her wishes he had met the OW before he met her and so on.

He maybe lovebusting like crazy, he maybe refusing to be radically honest, he may as stated still seeing OW, he may not have expressed any remorse or even apologized for hurting her.

PLEASE if you are going to assert that recovery will fail solely on how she is behaving then back it up with what went on and what is going on.

You are implying that should the marriage fail the blame falls on her because of her behavior post affair rather than his affair.

Regardless NOBODY has a right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do. And your post is indeed telling betrayed spouse what they can or can't do rather than what is productive and counterproductive.

Finally if being a first class b$tch is what she NEEDS for her recovery then it is her right to do what she feels she needs to do in order to recover. She risks killing reconcilation but you have no right to tell what she can or cannot do with her life and her marriage.

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

Tak,
I couldn't agree with you more. I read the first post and thought "what a great thread."

I have seen it happen over and over again - the marriage could recover but the BS goes crazy and destroys any chance.

Stunned Dad,
I am not following your line of reasoning. I try not to use DJ's on MB, and I try not to use them in my Marriage. It seems to me that you are saying that using DJ's is OK if there has been an Affair. I am trying not to be disrespectful to you, but it SEEMS to me that you are being very disrespctful to Takola. It seems to me that you are unfairly BASHING her because she disagrees with you. I reralize we are all entitled to our own opintion, but your post seems like an out and out attack on Tak, and it makes me very uncomfortable. I am not sure why you are doing this.

Perhaps I am wrong, and it is not your intent to attack Takola, but the words you use, and the way you use them denote anger, and disrespect to me. From my point of view, you are doing to her just what she cautions BS's against doing to their spouse.

Please note that I say it looks that way to me, I am not questioning your intent, I am just trying to understand why the tone of your posts seems so angry and mean to me. You seem to feel very strongly the things you say, but I can't undestand the reasons you give for those feelings. I think understand Tak's point of view very well having seen what she describes happen many times here on MB, and in real life.

I think if I understand what she is saying and I shortened it down to one or two sentances, it would be that " angry outbusts and disprectful judgments won't restore a marriage after and A," and that "two wrongs don't make a right."

I thought she outlined it very well, and I believe I understand and agree with what she said. I agree with you that the person that has the A does great damage to the marriage. Some can never recover from it. But I also agree with Takola that if a person wants to recover their marriage, it is easier done with respect and kindness than with anger and malice.

I kind of liken it to a wound. If I get a deep cut, it can threaten my health and even my life if it is not properly treated. I can clean it, put anseptic on it, and bandage it - taking care not to bump it or let it get stressed. Or, I can throw salt in it, get it dirty, and ignore the further pain that would cause.

I believe all Takola is trying to say is that the better care we take of the wounded marriage, the better chance we have of recovery. That would apply even if the wound was caused by the other peson and was totally their fault.

Stunned Dad, Please understand I am not trying to argue with you, but when I read your post, it LOOKS LIKE a personal attack on Talola. That's what I see when I read your post to her. I don't believe that is your intent at all, but that's what I get from what you say, and the way you say it. Having respect for both of you, that distresses me.

Stunned Dad, I wish I knew what to recommend from here, but I am not sure. Perhaps you could read the thread over and see what you think about what I have said. That's just a suggestion and not a demand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I guess I look at this differently. I am the BS in my relationship so I know all too well about the reaction that Takola is talking about. However, it was NOT my spouse's place to hurt me either. What gave him the right?! I firmly believe that for every behavior we each exhibit, we can expect a consequence. When you are a WS and your BS reacts in such a way, that is the consequence of your choices. I suppose as a BS, it is the one thing in this whole ugly mess that I felt I could control.

Having been a betrayed spouse, I will be the first to tell you....that it is perhaps the most devastating thing that has ever happened in my life. I remember making a statement to my husband....and this is a direct quote:

If what you did doesn't destroy this marriage....my reaction to it will.

Even in my pain, I recognized that my inability to control my reaction to his infidelity became a greater threat to our recovery than the affair itself. The affair was over....but my resentment, anger and desire for punishment became insurmountable. I was very afraid of my reaction to his affair, because that's where a great deal of the destructive power was resting. I knew, I would need to rage, scream, cry and have my initial grief....but I also knew that if I couldn't heal my heart...I couldn't heal my marriage.

You need some examples stunned....and I really do have some that I can share. I mentor some couples....I have a husband and wife who are in the beginning stages of recovery. The affair lasted a year....the wife knew...and couldn't prove it. When I met her....she was the angriest woman I have ever met. He husband refused to be honest and she had begun divorce proceedings and was dead set on sticking it to him. I did not even try to save her marriage. I tried to save her....from her own rage and fury. I did give her a copy of SAA so she could understand how this sort of thing happens, but I mostly concentrated on how to choose to approach this in a way that had some hope of making her happier.

Everytime she saw her husband, she treated him like dirt....spewing sarcasm and rejecting him. Did she deserve to feel that way...OMG YES!!! Did he deserve to be treated that way....I'd say yes to that too LOL. But here's the problem...it perpetuated the hatred and incompatiblity. It also perpetuated the misery. I convinced her to do ONE thing....I SWEAR....just one thing. Stop Lovebusting. That's all.

Now here is what happened. She stopped love busting, and calmly talked to her husband. He admitted to the affair...perhaps because he felt safe to do so. He ended the affair, and they stopped the divorce proceedings. They are currently counseling with Penny. The wife is still struggling very hard to control her anger....and it isn't easy...not at all. Of course she is justified in feeling the way she does....this is horrible. But without the ability to control LBs....no progress in real healing and rebuilding can continue. I have taught her HOW to express these negative feelings without immasculating, judging, tearing down her husband. She has gone from YOU YOU YOU statements....to I I I I feel_______.

There is an important distinction between being entitled to feel and entitled to harm because of those feelings. No wrong in the universe entitles anyone to do more harm....that is a choice...but a poor one in my estimation. There is a rightness and wrongness about it in almost every religious doctrine in the world. But it is also common sense. Create boundaries, defend them, be assertive....all of that is possible without love busting. All of those are productive without love busting. Love busting is indeed a natural consequence of infidelity....but get it over with...and if you decide to rebuild your marriage....get it OUT of your life.

<small>[ November 12, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Stunned Dad,
I am not following your line of reasoning. I try not to use DJ's on MB, and I try not to use them in my Marriage. It seems to me that you are saying that using DJ's is OK if there has been an Affair. I am trying not to be disrespectful to you, but it SEEMS to me that you are being very disrespctful to Takola. It seems to me that you are unfairly BASHING her because she disagrees with you. I reralize we are all entitled to our own opintion, but your post seems like an out and out attack on Tak, and it makes me very uncomfortable. I am not sure why you are doing this. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought stunned dad made his objections very clear. Seeing a statement that begin baldy with, "It is NOT your place. . ." does give the impression that the person making the statement is laying down the law for everyone else, and raises the question of why that person thinks he or she has the right to do that.

Let's try to translate this to a situation at home. My loved ones have a way of putting dirty dishes in the sink even when the dishwasher is free, and I then put them in the DW. I could say to hubby, "It is NOT right for you to put your dirty dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher", but we all know where that would lead. Or I could say, "I'd like to talk about how the household chores get divided" or "Could you do me a favor and put the dishes straight into the DW next time?" or a number of other things less likely to come across as bossy and demanding.

Similarly, this topic could have been introduced in a number of ways, such as:
"Behaving spouses, do you try to punish your WS?" or

"Punishment vs. Natural consequences, is there a difference?"

or

"What happened when I tried to punish my WS, and what I have learnd from that"

just to name a few. And the post itself could have asked people what they thought about the issue of punishment vs natural consequences, what their experiences were with either, and what the outcomes were, instead of starting off telling them what they should not do.

Now as to whether Takola should have approached it that way, I don't know. Who am I to say what she ought to have done? I do understand stunned dad's reaction, though, and I don't see it as him bashing Takola so much as pointing out something she may not have considered about how she said what she said.

Ok I'll add my $0.02 into the melee.

Of course there are consequences to most actions, BUT are these consequences (which come mostly out of an emotional response) something that we will be able to live with for the rest of our lives? If the answer is yes, then by all means go for it and push the nuclear detonation button on the marriage. BUT if the answer is a maybe or a no, then it is wise to consider getting a grip on ones emotions before more damage is added to the marriage by love busting one's WS.

Check out what Dr Harley says on this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So does that mean if the A is still going on, WS is fair game? I managed to do Plan A for three months, but something just snapped in me. I can't stop LB'ing for 5 minutes it seems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Anyways, maybe this thread should be in In Recovery.

I always believed that all this anger and resentment would blow over once the A was done, but now I wonder...

Perhaps the title could be altered; however, keep in mind one thing. I name my threads what I name them to attract attention and entice people to read the contents. I try to stay with the subject matter, as well. My thread titles are no more nor no less than that. This title, then, does what I want it to do.

Since so many seem to think this is a worthwhile conversation, though, I am willing to edit to make it more productive.