<small>[ March 01, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

Men:

I can't tell if your post is legit or not. I'll assume it is.

"This man did not tell her he was married initially but when he did it was through a letter. She later found out he had two kids and was a mormon."

Did she break it off when she found out he was Md (married)?

"My girl tried breaking off the relationship several times, but he made her feel guilty by calling her and emailing her. He even cried once on her voicemail. My girl even left the country to avoid him, but he emailed her even after she left to go to Spain."

emails can be blocked. Phones can have caller id. Phone numbers can be changed and unlisted. A lot less drastic than leaving the country.

"This guy was not only having a relationship with the girl I am in love with but his wife. He was keeping secrets from both of them."

This isn't unusual.

"He was calling my girl in the morning and emailing her and telling her he loved her while he was sleeping with his wife."

Was he sleeping with your GF (girlfriend) 2? Again, not unusual, however disgusting it is. That the na2re of an A (affair).

"Then I started to email his wife and him everytime I found out about the contact from the husband."

Why? The best thing 2 do would be 2 ignore them completely.

"Everytime my girlfriend would email the [censored] he would forward the email to his wife without his email making it look like my girl was after him."

Why on Earth did she respond 2 his emails? IGNORE HIM.

"The wife would then forward the emails to my girl with sick mormon philosophies and messages."

I don't know what these are. I'm an atheist, but there are a number of mormons on this forum.

"She also sent my girls parents a letter warning them that their daughter was committing adultery."

This isn't ac2ually a bad thing, if it's done with compassion. If your GF was having an A with a MM (married man) and KNEW it, then "outing" the A 2 friends and family is a good way 2 kill it. But I gather she wasn't "nice."

"The wife tried locating me but was unsuccessful so she emailed my girl and proposed that my girl was behind all the emails that I had forwarded the husband and her. The wife also contacted a number of people who my girl worked with at the hospital to get information about her. She also tried finding me, but did not look in the right city or hospital. Do I contact his wife and talk to her? Ask her to stop this insanity and work on her marriage?"

Depending on how she's doing this, she may believe she IS working on saving her M. Again, it doesn't sound like she's doing this "right." But the point is, if you want these people out of your lives, ignore them. Block the emails and the phone calls. Who cares who knows, if your GF is no longer having an A with him? The truth might ac2ally persuade HIM 2 stop bothering you and your GF.

"I know this sounds very confusing. But I am trying to make this girl realize that the relationship with the [censored] was not real and that they are both crazy."

The A wasn't a "real" relationship, no. But who do you think is crazy? Them, or your GF and him? In any case, you can't convince her they're crazy, she has 2 realize this on her own.

"Should I give my girl time to resolve her issues or dump her and move on with my life. "

Considering your lack of compassion for her predicament, I think you'd be doing her a favor by letting her go.

"I have put my career on hold for her. I really want to marry this girl. She is everything I have ever wanted in a mate and more. I know she loves me but she continues to tell me to give her time. I cannot seem to convince my girl how crazy this guy is not to mention his wife who continues to forward emails to my girl to this day."

BLOCK THE EMAILS. Also, you do need 2 give your GF time.

"We are both in counseling and seeing a couples counselor together but she wants to stop and concentrate on herself and "heal and morn" the loss of the [censored]."

She's confused. She does need 2 sort herself out on her own. You can help by giving her the time she needs. It would be better if she stayed in counseling, but don't make any demands that she do so. Maybe suggest that she try another counselor. It isn't unusual 2 have 2 try more than one before you find one you can work with. I've had 4. ...no, 5.

"Is this crazy? I am afraid of loosing her again."

You need 2 work on your fears (old timers here will laugh out loud at that, I have tons of fears still!). Work on bettering yourself. If it's "meant 2 be" it will be. You can't force your GF 2 want you. She needs 2 make that choice for herself.

"We have reported everything and turned in everything to the police and even hired a lawyer. They cannot do anything because my girl engaged with them by replying to their emails."

I hope the point was taken. BLOCK THE EMAILS.

"It is amazing how good it feels to release all of these emotions that have been building inside."

Good! Keep coming back. Definitely check out the home page and read the articles about infidelity and pre-marriage. It's an amazing site.

regards,
-2long

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

Consider yourself lucky. She could have cheated after you were married and had kids. But you found out about her now. Get away as fast as you can, and go find someone who will truly love and respect you.

Menisectomy,

I believe you really love this girl, but I must say that since she isn't blocking his emails and keeps responding, then I have to wonder aloud if she is still in the affair with this guy.

The reason his wife keeps after the two of you is because she, too, is afraid that the affair is ongoing. I am not a Mormon, but I can tell you as a person who holds strong religious beliefs, that the wife is acting out of her faith. She believes she and her husband share an eternal bond and that your girl shouldn't tamper with it. They aren't crazy, they just look at life way differently than you do so you can't possibly begin to understand them, or their pain (in the case of the wife).

Whether you want to continue in this relationship is your choice, of course. But I think your girl is showing a tendency to be weak. You need to ask yourself if you want a weak woman for your wife.

Would it hurt to give her time? Maybe. Maybe not. She might just come out at the end, saying, "the Mormon is my soul-mate" and end her relationship with you. You have to know that is a real possibility.

Don't put off your career for this girl while she sorts out her emotions. Take care of yourself. Perhaps cutting her loose will be the thing that brings her back to you.

Take care.

<small>[ November 15, 2003, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

First of all, you make a fine point about his religious affilliation. EVERY single post you take a shot at the Mormons. What's this about? Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, and Athiests sometimes break their vows and cheat. Some embezzle, break public trust, murder, etc. So what's up with this bashing mormon stuff for you?

Secondly, your "girlfriend" is chasing a married man - that's right; I said CHASING - because she knows he's married, has a boyfriend of her own, and still keeps in touch with him, which means she's still pursuing a relationship with him; the wife is irrelevant to the drama you're in. Don't you get it? Your girlfriend is your primary concern. You can't control her or stop her from doing what she's doing. Nor should you try. Let her go. She's in a fog and doesn't give a crap about you or your feelings.

She obviously doesn't consider herself bound to you at all. Why on earth are you messing up your career for her? You haven't taken vows. She started dating someone else. When my college boyfriend did that, I considered "us" over! I had sufficient self esteem to surrender that relationship and move on with my life. Yeah, I felt kicked in the stomach for a while - dropped 30 pounds, and looked great by the time he got married. I got involved with my political party, had fun, got a second job playing piano at a summer theater and just focused on renewing my life.

I'd suggest similar therapy for you.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

The fog will not go away for GF until there is a solid passage of time with NO CONTACT whatsoever. Even then, it may take years for the ghost of that fog to leave her mind.

Yes, there can be a good relationship between you and her, but she MUST be the one to do the work. You need to learn all you can to be a good spouse to someone, not necessarily her. Learn about lovebusters, giver and taker, etc. on this web site and in Harley's books. But I wouldn't count on her dealing with her issues that caused her to do this to you in the first place. There is no excuse for infidelity - not abuse, not anything else. Not even infidelity.

Men, knock it off. You're blaming yourself for something that happened while your girlfriend was not involved with you.

If she made that choice, so be it.

You are not the white knight who gets to rescue the damsel in distress.

And you're not the victim in all of this.

You're a bystander. You're hurt, sure. You tried to rush in to help, probably because you're a good samaritan. That's great.

Here's the problem. You think that a woman who uses every means she can to protect her marriage is a nut.

That's not the case.

I would suggest that you either need to get out of this drama or GET OUT OF THIS DRAMA.

Either call the wife and apologize to her and tell her you want to help your GF and her husband get out of contact, or...

get out of contact with all of them. Including your girlfriend.

And for pete's sake, get yourself some help. You sound like you're falling apart completely. Given the circumstances, I think that has more to do with what you THOUGHT you had, and what you THOUGHT life was like, than what's really going on.

Affairs happen. People who have them act in really odd ways. People who are married to or involved with people who have affairs act in really odd ways, too.

And there is not one thing you can do to educate or fix "your girl" while she's in this mess. She ain't yours and she ain't a girl. She's a separate human being who's made bad choices and now has to live with the pain of it.

Men:

You should seriously consider counseling with one of the Harleys. They're expensive, but incredibly efficient.

You need 2 learn the difference between being "alone" and being "lonely." You can be lonely without being alone, and it is possible 2 be alone without being lonely. That's where you want 2 be: You want 2 be able 2 be emotionally healthy, whether you are alone or with someone. You need 2 get "there" by yourself for yourself. Your GF needs 2 do the same. Only then can either of you have a healthy relationship with someone.

Look, we all have a tendency 2 try 2 make sense of what's happened 2 us. You shouldn't, because you can't. There is no sense 2 be made.

It is also true that your GF will need time, possibly years, AFTER contact has been severed forever, before she'll be healed personally from this experience. Do you have the patience 2 wait years? When this happens to a committed relationship, it makes sense 2 try 2 save it. And in the process of rebuilding trust and intimacy, both the BS and the WS have the oppor2nity 2 help each other grow. But in a si2ation like yours where there was no commitment when the A started, you have 2 ask yourself whether it might make more sense for you 2 move on.

I won't presume, but this is a choice you should consider.

-2long

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

Men:

Click on "Counsel" at the top of this webpage under the "Marriage Builders" heading. You'll find all you need 2 know 2 get counselling with either Jenn or Steve. They counsel by phone. Cerri, another MBer on the boards, also does MB coaching, also by phone. Look up her username. She posts her website in her signa2re line.

All three can work with you alone, your GF alone, or both of you 2gether. I like that, as our MC wouldn't see me alone on a day that I showed up and my W was stuck in traffic. Wasted a whole afternoon. Also, in a crisis, the MB coaches will spend more time on the phone with you, depending on the need. Office counseling isn't flexible enough 2 allow that.

"She is truly amazing and out of this world. She helps complete me. She knows me better then I know myself. It is like she can read my heart and mind. "

I'm a little concerned by this. I said many of the same things before I found out about my W's A. And so finding out was devastating. I think it's fine 2 feel "completed" by our partners, but it's very important that we bring "whole" or emotionally healthy versions of ourselves in2 a committed relationship. I used 2 think it was "cute" that my W seemed 2 be able 2 read my mind. She used 2 finish my sentences. Early on in our M, that WAS cute, and she was usually right. After a few years, her accuracy fell of a bit, but I tried not 2 let it bother me (what I should have done, though, would have been 2 politely point out that she missed). During her A, she was seldom right about what I was thinking, and when she finished my sentences, she did so sarcastically - which caused me 2 want 2 withdraw. Again, what I should have done was 2 point out that she was guessing wrong. Instead, we communicated less and less, precisely when communication was most needed.

David Schnarch, a marital sex therapist, wrote a THICK book called "Passionate Marriage." The introductory chapters are all about helping yourself be a stronger individual within a committed relationship. It's a hard read but there's a lot of extremely useful information in there. It's one of my favorites.

-2long

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

Men:

You can change the title of your first post by going to it and clicking on the paper/pencil icon at the top of it.

"My GF refuses to give me details of their relationship because she says it would hurt me in the long run. Do you think that's true?"

She already has hurt you. NOT telling you what happened will put in place a permanent rift of dishonesty between you 2 for the rest of your lives, if you do get Md. Read about "Radical Honesty" on the home page.

I don't know, Men. It is likely that it will take your GF a LONG time 2 heal from this A she had. Do you think it is wise 2 commit 2 her, considering you asked her 2x 2 marry you and she refused? BEFORE she found her so-called "soul mate" and had an A with him?

She may just have 2 much emotional baggage 2 make this worth the effort. Sorry 2 sound so harsh.

-2long

Have you ever tried to put yourself in the W's shoes?

Maybe her post title would be...My husband had an affair with an engaged protestant woman who is obsessed with him.

She may write something like this: I have two kids with this man and have been married for x amount of years. We have been trying to work out our M problems, but this OW continues to make no contact virtually impossible. When will she move on with her life and leave MY husband alone??

IMHO, you are in a major fog and are protecting a woman who is NOT a victim. She is completely accountable for her actions and choices and if you keep giving her an easy out, she will never get the lesson that she is supposed to learn.

Good luck!

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: onlyUcan ]</small>

.

<small>[ March 01, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: MENISCECTOMY ]</small>

Your GF certainly is to blame for this affair. Just as much as the man she slept with.

And the wife, is simply following all of the procedures that many of us would recommend to expose the affair. Whether she uses church members and her religion is her business. Many churches frown on adultery (DUH!)

She's fighting for her marriage. Sounds like she's the only one in this story worth feeling compassion for.

Move, get your career and your life on track. Give yourself some space and distance. I think your best option is to move on alone. Its EXTREMELY difficult to overcome adultery in a committed marriage with both partners trying hard. In your case, with no vows/no children/no committment/ and her lack of interest in trying, I'd say you're trying to climb Mount Everest without a rope.

Men:

"Explain this: Why would she find the emails, the phone calls and the love letters he wrote her. If he really wanted to keep this affair a secret."

Because subliminally, he wanted 2 get caught. I found my W's emails 2 Rat Meat - my D-day. They weren't "careful enough" 2 avoid getting caught. RM then did several s2pid things of his own that got him caught. Does it make sense? I don't know. He's getting a DV right now. Maybe that's what he wanted.

"Our counselor said if he really wanted to keep this a secret he would have not made it so easy for his wife to discover the affair."

My IC said the same thing 2 me. I wonder if they all say this? I wonder if there's any truth 2 it? I wouldn't be surprised if there is, but it really never became an issue in our case. It's not all that important, really. Not 2 YOU and YOUR fu2re. Is it?

"Don't go blaming me or my GF for this affair."

I'm with Lexxxy on this. Your GF is definitely responsible for saying "yes" 2 this guy. Blaming, though? While she's responsible for getting involved with the guy, the fact that she did, either knowingly or unknowingly, get involved with a MM is NOT the issue. What she and you want 2 do about your respective fu2ures IS.

Men, I've been Md nearly 28 years, and have 2 kids. I know how hard it is trying 2 recover from my W's A. From time 2 time, you will find threads here where people will ask whether you'd M your spouse if you could 2rn back the clock and start all over again before you got Md. I have 2 answers: If I didn't know then what I know now, then sure, I'd M her again. But if I knew then what I know now, the answer would be a definite no. Not that I don't love my W - I do. But I've learned so much about my character and hers in the past 2 years that, if I had it 2 do over again, I'd try with someone else. Or just stay single.

Sorry 2 say, but knowing how hard recovering a committed M is, I would agree with Lexxxy again - moving on alone might be your best bet at this point.

I don't know if I've ever recommended that before.
-2long

Obviously, you do not seem to know what you are getting yourself into. Before you get hurt anymore, get out of that relationship. I had a similar experience and regret it, but for me it is too late. A woman like that is to be avoided. Find yourself a healthy and balanced female without a dark past.