Wife asked to give us another try. After 1 week WW had contact with OM. Now she is saying that she doens't love me, she loves him. How can she walk away from that, how can she take the chance on loosing him for something that she doesn't have confidence in.

The reason for the A was that I neglected to give her affection and meet her most important EN.

She has often said that, had I done these things this would have never happened.

She moved out, and still has the rental house for the rest of this month. I think she is considering moving back.

If I force her to make a decision between me or the OM right now, I think she would choose him. What do I do, What do I say,

Bruised-heart the next time your W tells you that the marriage is over, please consider conveying to her the following in a calm and soothing voice:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Honey, I want our marriage to work. But you’re right, it’s not working. I’ll help you move out."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s it! Why would you say this to her? Because resisting, begging, and pleading to get your wife to change her mind only challenges her more strongly to get her way. These words will give her the impression that you are not going to fight anymore about anything. In effect, you are calling her bluff. Once you agree to a divorce, all the tough work of what is involved in the divorce will land straight on her shoulders. She will be facing the prospect of possibly living alone, and of going through the legal matters of a divorce. Also, by using these words, you will be clearly indicating that you are taking responsibility for your part in what went wrong with the marriage. Instead of having an argument with her, simply telling her "You are right" can have a wonderful healing effect.

Remember B-H that it ain't over until all the i's and t's have been dotted and crossed and that has yet to happen, hasn't it?

I would also like to suggest that you read Michelle Weiner Davis's Divorce Busting 180 degre list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore with her.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Thank you TooMuchCoffeeMan,

I tried these and they seemed to work. She moved out for one night, called me and asked for another chance. Things were great for several days. Then, she started second guessing her second guess. Monday, they communicated over the phone, and somehow he has convinced her that she was making a mistake.

She says that she just can't believe that her feelings for him are wrong. She has said if I would have shown her affection and spent less time at work this would have never happened. She has admitted that he entered her life and provided her with EN that I didn't during a time when she was vunerable.

I have asked her if it was possible that she was in love with the feelings he provided more than being in love with him. She said yes.

She is not sure what she wants, but at the same time, I don't think she is willing to call it quits yet.

If she moves out and still can't decide who she wants, then it's time to go to Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bruised-heart:

"She has said if I would have shown her affection and spent less time at work this would have never happened."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's partially true. You did contribute to the environment for her affair to occur BUT you must also calmly and respectfully convey to her that she also contributed to her affair happening by crossing dangerous marital boundaries and not telling you that she was starting to develop feelings for the OM before it became an affair. If she doesn't accept responsibility for her contributing part in creating the environment that made her affair possible, she may not want to put any effort in rebuilding the marriage. She is a woman, an adult who is free to make choices and as such responsible for them.

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

BH: Please click on the link in my signature line. I know there is a LOT Of information in that link and the other links on that page, but this is not a simple thing.

Thanks to everyone,

What do I say to her, when she wants to work things out and hours later has second thoughts.

She has asked what would I do if the roll was reversed.

Should I demand that she make a decision, one way or the other.

Should I tell OM that we intend to work things out and ask him to back out.

Bruised-heart –

The first thing to do would be to decide what YOU want to do.

If you want to try to save your marriage, it’s a good idea to listen to the advice that other BS’s (like TMCM) give you on this board. Read the books suggested on this site (His Needs, Her Needs; Surviving an Affair, for example).

I’m a FWS, and I think the BS’s here might be able to give you better advice about Plan B, but it sounds like a good idea to me. I can tell you your WW is very deep in the fog right now, so her fantasy A seems like reality to her.

Once she is in a place where she is free to be with OM, she will more than likely find out who he REALLY is soon enough.

Right now they are both on their best behavior with each other (like we all do in the beginning of relationships), but when they begin to experience day-to-day life together, they will both start acting like their REAL selves, and the fantasy aspect will be diminished.

For example, her OM probably has a job, hobbies, family, etc., that he will eventually have/want to return his attention to and maybe won’t be able/willing to pay as much attention to her as he is right now.

The hope is that when she realizes her mistake, then she will be ready to come back to you and seriously work on the M.

As hard as it might be to do, I think telling her what TMCM said above is good, or something along those lines:

"Honey, I want our marriage to work. But you’re right, it’s not working. I’ll help you move out."

Then tell her you will be willing to begin working on the M when she leaves OM and has no further contact with him.

This is "demanding that she make a decision one way or the other," but otherwise, if you let her have OM in her life and YOU, she is getting the best of both situations (it's called cake eating),so why should she make a decision then?

As far as her asking you what you would do if the roles were reversed, there is no way you can answer that because you are not in a fantasy fog. Her decision to choose OM is based on fantasy fog.

I've also heard of BS writing or calling the OM, asking him to back off. I don't know what kind of responses they have had, maybe some of them can reply to you. I think the general consensus would be that OM won't care what you want, but you never know.

Of course, whatever you do is up to you. None of us can really tell you what to do, just give our best suggestions. God bless you and help you to decide what's best for you. Don't forget to take care of yourself through all of this - get rest, exercize, etc.

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Rose55 and TMCM thank you again.

We have told family and our 2 girls that we were working on saving our marriage and that Mommy was moving back home.

Now I am afraid that we will all have to go through that again if I take the route of saying she is right it is not working.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs. How might I expect her to respond if she reads SAA.
There are some good sucess stories in there that I think would give her confidence.

I have heard the OM has a heavy drinking problem and a terrible temper. I have also heard that he has been a playboy most of his life.

I haven't told her these things, because anything I say about him, she takes as an attack and that I just don't think any other man could love her. She has convinced herself that she could only fall in love with a good person.

I have asked her if she thinks she is the only one that he has had an A with. I have asked her if it was possible that he knew what buttons to push when she was down in the dumps. I asked her why did his wife leave him.

Her response to any negative question about him is he is a good person.

Please provide more sugestions.

Rose55 and TMCM thank you again.

We have told family and our 2 girls that we were working on saving our marriage and that Mommy was moving back home.

Now I am afraid that we will all have to go through that again if I take the route of saying she is right it is not working.

I have read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs. How might I expect her to respond if she reads SAA.
There are some good sucess stories in there that I think would give her confidence.

I have heard the OM has a heavy drinking problem and a terrible temper. I have also heard that he has been a playboy most of his life.

I haven't told her these things, because anything I say about him, she takes as an attack and that I just don't think any other man could love her. She has convinced herself that she could only fall in love with a good person.

I have asked her if she thinks she is the only one that he has had an A with. I have asked her if it was possible that he knew what buttons to push when she was down in the dumps. I asked her why did his wife leave him.

Her response to any negative question about him is he is a good person.

Please provide more sugestions.

If the two of you have told your D's that you are working on saving the marriage, then you must convey to your WW the importance of her writing and sending a NC(no contact) letter to the OM ASAP in which she states that she does not want him to contact her ever again. Make the point that marital recovery is impossible as long as there is contact between her and the OM because any contact will put her back to square one and will extend her painful emotional withdrawl period.

Her comments that the OM is a good person shows she still in love with the 'image' that the OM has shown her of him. No WS likes to beleive the possibility that he or she was used by the OP for it means that they were betrayed and we BS know very well how devastating betrayal is, don't we? So do NOT try to educate her about the OM's character flaws. Your job is to avoid all love busters because doing so will give you a great edge over the OM in the long run, AND fulfill all of her most important EN(emotional needs) AFTER she agrees to end her affair by sending a NC letter to the OM and agreeing to MC(marriage counseling) with an MB oriented professional like Steve Harley or his sister Jennifer Harley Chalmers from Marriage Builders Counseling Service. or Penny R Tuppy (our resident MB coach Cerri) from Save Your Marriage Central .

I hope this helps you and your W.

Thank you TMCM,

WW is now saying that she intends to send letter to OM committing herself to her marriage.

However, almost all of our conversation is based around her feelings for him and:

She knows he loves her.

That he is a good person.

That he has never had an affair before, and the rumors of that are false.

That no person could say the things that made her feel so good, unless they were true.

That he keeps telling her that she has the perfect life and she should not give it up for him. (I think that makes her even more convinced he loves her)

Some of the things, she has told me he has said, she takes as total honesty, but I am often hearing differently.

How do I respond to this constant talk about OM.
Do I continue the conversation, she doesn't want to hear any negative comments. It is like she is seeking approval for her feelings, and trying to convince herself that she could not have fallen for someone that wasn't a really good person.

Although you may find this hard to beleive, but it is a very good sign that she feels emotionally safe with you that she is willing to share her thoughts and feelings with you about the OM. Her affair like most affairs always start with secrecy and dishonesty, because when the WS starts to have feelings for the OP, s/he decides not to share them with the BS for fear of how the BS will react. If prior to her affair she had confided in you about her developing feelings for the OM, the chances of her affair becoming a reality would have dropped substantially because then the two of you could have dealt with them by going to MC(marital counseling). How should you respond to her about constant talk about the OM? By acknowledging to her that if you were in her shoes that you would very likely feel the same. This is called withdrawl and she is turning to you for emotional support not advice (she's a venusian and you are a martian, remember?) so don't get angry or upset for that will only make her feel that she can't confide in you. Just hold her in silence and that could go a long way in showing her that what she thought she had with the OM, was here along beside you.

<small>[ November 22, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thank you TMCM,

My WW wanted to get away this weekend, so I made some simple plans. Her excitement about the trip deminished before we even left.

We drove for a couple of hours, every thing was fine. Then she started talking about the OM being a much better person than I gave him credit for. That she had some doubts about him, but it hurt so much to think that his feelings weren't true and that she could have possibly fallen in love with someone that she really didn't know.

After that, she was so distant to me that it even made her mad if I tried to hold her hand.

She is really depressed, but doesn't want to hear of medicine.

Last night she went and rented a Movie, "The Story of Us" we had watched it before. I didn't remember it and she said she remembered the ending. I became emotional a couple of times when I heard certain parts of our own life. She said she just wanted to see and hear the end of the movie one more time.

I love her so much. She says she won't talk to him anymore, but my fears of continued contact with OM are destroying me inside. I wake up with visions that I can't get rid of.

She keeps saying that I don't love her. She doesn't understand my emotional reactions to the A. and that I would not be getting the same from her.

She ask, Why don't I explode, why don't I throw something, why don't I hit her. Why don't I hate her, Why am I not jealous and where is my resentment, She says these would be natural responses, and she can't understand why I don't have them. So I must be doing this for the children and not because I love her.

She continues to say that she has no love for me and that she will not live like this forever. She says in 6 months or so that if things aren't better she intends to leave.

I want to show, her the book SAA, it almost sounds like our story. Many of the A(s) that I have read about, almost sound like they were all written by the same couple. Do you think I should ask her to read SAA.

I asked her to read SAA, she wouldn't consider it.
She continues to say that I should hit her, throw something, go out and find a woman to get back at her, etc. She says she deserves this and that she had no idea that this would be so hard. She thought that she could walk away and that I wouldn't try to stop her.

Maybe it's time to tell "princess" that the world doesn't revolve around her. You, dickwad (the OM), and in fact everyone else aren't just supporting characters in her life.
It sounds like she wants some sort of "duel" between you and dickwad for her affections. Well, the time for that, if ever, was BEFORE the commitment stage, not after.
So what's it gonna take - you call dickwad out "after school"? Like in grade 5?

Honestly, some WWs seem to think they have an entitlement to happiness. They don't realize that it's something one earns, and for which one sacrifices. Yes, we all seek and pursue happiness, but that alone means it's not an automatic "gimme". Like any other, the right to pursue happiness automatically implies that in doing so, one doesn't trample or impede on the rights of others. Like she did to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bruised-heart:

I asked her to read SAA, she wouldn't consider it.

She continues to say that I should hit her, throw something, go out and find a woman to get back at her, etc. She says she deserves this and that she had no idea that this would be so hard. She thought that she could walk away and that I wouldn't try to stop her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like she is suffering from guilt and wants you to do something equally selfish to help alleviate it. You may have forgiven her but she has not forgiven herself.

Consider conveying to her that if the right conditions and circumstances had been present, that you could have been the one to have an affair. Empathize with her by saying that if you were in her shoes you would probably feel the same. Apologize to her for neglecting her and not giving her the attention she deserved as your W. Express to her that you hope that one day she forgives you for it and that she'll give you the opportunity to make amends to her. Why would you say this to her? To help her see that you take full responsibility for your part in the bad state of the marriage. Nothing disarms another person faster than a heartfelt apology for ones mistakes and it often causes the other person to feel better not only towards him/herself but towards the issuer of the apology.