I would like to get this discussion back to its subject "How to talk to the WS when he or she is in fantasyland". That is my problem.

When I try and gently warn WW that the A is having and will have disastrous consequences, I seem to be hitting a brick wall. Her heart is coated with a glaze of ice. She and OM are their own support group and are convinced they are right and all the experts, spouses, pastors, MC's are wrong.

How do you talk to them at this stage?

Well I got some information on counseling and took it to my W and sure enough her response was “you know I never agreed to go” and “if I didn’t want to go before I don’t know why you think I’d want to go now”. Just the day before she was open to the idea. It is like Jaref said she seems to feel one way one minuet and another way the next.

Jaref if your still out there maybe you would have some advice for me, I would love to pick your brain. Your situation and my W’s sound similar maybe you can help me understand what she is thinking. You had some questions about support groups and my meds. I don’t know about support groups, but I would think there is something out there, if not create one. I know what you mean by your mind being in overdrive, mine was all over the place and I was a mess but I took the advice of people on this site and my W and got the meds, now I’m a lot better, the meds don’t fix anything but at least I can function now.

Auto is right about getting back to the subject of this string, “how do you talk to WW when she is in fantasy land”. I wish I knew, my W’s fog started to lift a little but it has a long way to go, last night she informed me that she was still planning on leaving. She goes back and forth, I guess I have to remember she is as confused as I am. I have been following your situation Auto, I read your post here and your string on GQII. Our situations seem similar so I know how you must feel, unfortunately I don’t have any advice for you I’m hoping some of the more experienced members will have something for both of us.

Russkie,

I am so sorry that you have to go thru this. I can't even imagine how hard it must be. Just Learning gave you some good advice above.

Just Learning was on topic and gave you advise on how to talk to her. I am not sure you heard what JL was saying. Please go and read his post again!

When you think about it why should she listen to you? She realizes that she can live at home and go with the OM anytime she wants. She has no incentive and there are no negative consequences for her actions.

You will need to take some action so that she can see that she cannot be a cake eater and that you are moving on with your life. If you want to get thru to her your actions will get her attention. If you cannot get the OM out of the picture then you probably will not get thru to your WW.

Your WW will not be able to ignore you if you take action. Good Luck to you, I hope everything works out for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">russkie:

"I told her I didn’t want her to stay if she was only staying because the only other option seemed even worse, I wanted her to stay because she wants to be here and if she does stay we would have to start consoling and that she would have to have NC with OM and if she couldn’t do those things she might as well leave."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said russkie! Your WW's waffling on whether to stay or go is very common. You've got to keep in mind that unless your WW's affair is an exit type affair, she is comforted by the beleif that she'll always have the option of you taking her back. Your comments to either 'sh*t or get off the pot' shakes up that beleif to the point of her seriously questioning her decision to leave.

If you have it in you, I would suggest that you consider asking her every couple of days what date she is planning on leaving and if she's asks you why you want to know simply tell her that you want to start moving on with your life and you can't do that if she doesn't tell you exactly when she is going to be leaving. Is it risky? yes, BUT both men and women RESPECT and are ATTRACTED to someone who is emotionally strong and independent, and nothing would show her your emotional fortitude more than you telling her that you want to move on with your life. It is a splash to her face of cold, hard reality that tells her that she is NOT indispensable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I hope I didn’t make her decision to leave easier."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless you become abusive by love busting her with angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements, then whatever she decides will be solely her responsibility, not yours.

Hi, Russkie,

Yea, the roller coaster ride of an A is mentally tiring, isn't it?

I was reading back on an earlier post where you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want her to want to be here </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Russkie, it's probably gonna be a while before she "wants" to be with you. And it's not cuz there's anything wrong with you...it's because she is confused. Really confused. And I know, from the mind of the BS it all seems so logical...but you have to know that no matter what logic you can get her to believe, her emotions are very strong and pulling her two directions. Listen, as long as I have had an A and all the reading I have done on MarriageBuilders, I KNOW my A is an addiction...I LOGICALLY know this; yet the emotions are still controlling me. So don't expect your W to be excited about staying with you and working things out in the beginning. Just be glad if she does stay - especially if she will do NC and give you passwords, etc.

I think it is great for you to Plan A her...but I think you should also be firm with her and ask for her passwords to cell phones and emails, etc. I amm not expert, but I will tell you this: if my H had played hard ball with me and started making me account for my times, etc, my A would have ended long ago. I NEVER WANTED TO LEAVE MY HUSBAND (I thought I did at the very beginning, but the day I confessed my A I realized that I didn't want to leave him)...I just didn't want to give the "false security and love" of the OM.

I believe if you W really wanted to go, she would not need two or three months to prepare (as she said in an earlier message). After all, she was gonna move in with her grandmother (I believe) and leave the kids with you? It's not like she needed to save up some funds. SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LEAVE.

Well, Russkie, our situations are similar but not the same. My WW never confessed the A. I had to blast the truth out of her with hard evidence. she still goes about day to day as though things are normal. As much as I love her (which is a whole lot!), I have to say she is a great cake eater. She just does not want to hear anything realistic about the A. OM and WW have develeloped their own alternative universe that bends and twists the truth to suite their A.

I think the best we can do is remind them about our feelings and how the A hurts us. I have also been thinking that since verbal communication is not being recieved we can try some non verbal communication. That is the old "taking care of myself" routine. Get some nice new clothes. Go back to enjoying old hobbies and activities. Use Plan A to put ourselves back into control, rather than letting WS jerk us around at will.

Russkie, letting our WW's see you and I resume control of our lives may be the best communication of all.

I will keep you in my prayers.

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

I have read your story and understand why she is doing what she is doing. Before Thanksgiving, she was sure she was going to leave and let the kids stay for the school year and then have them during the summer. She then went to her parents to see OM. While she was gone, she missed the kids. This is why when she returned, she was not sure about going. Now that she is in more communication with OM, she is now enter the fog deeper. Until she ends all communication with OM, she will not come back to you or want to have anything to do with you. The only thing that can snap her out of it would be for her to move and miss the kids which will help bring her back to reality. Until that occurs, the A is about her, her, her and nobody else matters.

If she does move, have something in writing that states 1) the kids will stay for the rest of the school year (encourage her to visit) 2) you will get to see the kids some during the summer, 3) the kids will return in the fall for the next school year. This will protect you and the kids because after she moves, she will miss the kids too much and want to change the agreement.

My WS had an A and 3 years later a second with the same OM. About 6 weeks after I discovered it the second time, my WS fleed the state and moved to the same town her mother lived with my two kids while I was at work one day. She even had a job and a place to stay all lined up. She asked 1 week after she left if she could come back and work on the marriage. She knew (from talking to her attorney) that I would meet with a lawyer and have a judge order the kids back. She realized that she would miss the kids until the summer, when she would get them, and also how it was effecting the kids.

Hubby, you said your W left with the kids while you were at work one day, this is one of the things I worry about happening to me. I don’t believe she has that in her plans but she has already done more than I ever thought she would so it is in the back of my mind. You said you could have gotten a judge to order the kids back, is that possible? I think that if there is a separation agreement or if we have settled on custody I could prevent her from taking them out of state without my permission, but all we are doing is talking, we have no agreements on custody. If she were to take them out of state now I have been afraid that I would not be able to get them back. Am I wrong? I guess a lot of it depends on which state you live in.

Jaref, just like I can’t expect you to fully understand the emotions that your H and I are going through, I also don’t understand the emotions that you and my W are going through, but I think we both know that is very confusing and it’s an emotional roller coaster. I hear everyone compare an A to an addiction, if that is true (and I believe it is) I can begin to understand a little. I have never had an addiction so I really can’t relate to what it would be like, but if there was something that was threatening your children I don’t understand how anyone could not conquer that demon. I realize it isn’t easy, look at all the drug addicts and alcoholics in the world who’s children pay the price for their addictions, but it just seems like there has to be a way. I look at my W’s A as more of a threat to my kids than I do as a threat to me. As much as I want thing to work out and even though I know that I will fight for her with everything I have to offer, I know that I will survive this with or without her, I know that I will become stronger because of this and if things don’t work out I will have improved myself for the future. I can’t say that about my boys though, I’m afraid something like this will scar them deep and that they will carry that scar with them long after I’m gone.

Auto, I have the hard evidence on my W too but I didn’t have to use it on her, when I asked for the truth she told me. We spend most of out time as if things are normal, the truth is we get along better now than we have in years, but she still seems determine to leave. I have been doing the “take care of myself” routine, but like I said, I’m feeling like a doormat, I read that men should plan A for about 6 months, I don’t know if I can swallow my pride that long, I don’t even know if she will be around that long.