Here's my original post...

Me Too

Well, I tried very hard not to discuss her trip, except to ask if she had fun and if she did anything fun. I only talked about what she brought up. We've talked a couple of times for hours each time about our relationship, which, as she said, seems to be the only thing we ever talk about anymore. She has told me that, while she was gone, she had come to the decision to move out and was considering divorce. I asked her why she wasn't doing that, and she said that she wanted to work on this.

However, she also told me that she had no feelings for me anymore (my negative balance in her Love Bank I would assume), and that even when I did wonderful things that she wanted me to do, it made no difference, it gave her no good feelings whatsoever. Also, the fact that I had told my parents pretty much everything I knew while she was gone hurt her very much. She loves my parents, adores them, respects them beyond belief, and so do the kids. I didn't even mean to say anything to them, but my Dad had called, could tell immediately that something was wrong, and when I got overly emotional, he asked "Is she seeing someone else?" Well, that opened the floodgates.

However, I also did something that I am very ashamed of, though it resulted in the first time I've felt totally informed with the entire truth for months. I had spyed on her computer use, and this morning, I discovered conversation between her and the OM referencing the trip she just took, and plans to see each other again (though not for about 6 months).

So, once she woke up and came into the office with coffee and cigarettes, I started out slowly, telling her that I had talked to a mutual friend in chat, and so forth. Then I asked her the question that I had avoided all week..."Did you meet him while you were there?", to which she answered simply "No."

So I admitted to her that I know she changed her passwords on everything, because I had continued to try and peek into them. My excuse? I have felt all along that she has not been telling me the truth about what she's been thinking, feeling, and doing. Then I told her that I had been spying again, and that I knew what she'd talked about with everyone last night.

So I asked her again "Did you meet him while you were there?", and she responded simply "Yes." I asked "Did you have sex with him?", she paused for a few seconds, looked at the cieling, then said "No." I said "Let me rephrase that. Were you intimate with him? Physically intimate?" (realizing that personal distinctions between the F-word, having sex, and making love could skew the answer to the first question). Her answer "Not really. We kissed and hugged and cuddled, but nothing more than that." True or not, it really doesn't matter. She admitted to meeting him there, spending time with him, being close and romantic and intimate. The exact details don't really matter.

I am very proud of myself though. I never raised my voice. I never said hurtful things to or about her. I didn't make any demands. I hardly even cried, except when I talked a bit about the children (step-children to me by law...our children in my heart).

Then, I told her that I removed the software that I used to spy, and I would swear on anything and everything that she would want me to that it is gone, and will never be put back, ever. The friend that I had chatted with told me something that really hit home. "You either love her, or you don't. You don't love her if you have to watch her every move and make selfish decisions about how you're going to "check on her"."

So anyway, we got on to some of the MB concepts. I told her..."I feel that as long as you continue this other relationship, I will have great difficulties working on our marriage. I will not stop going to counseling. I will not stop trying to be a better father to the kids and a better husband to you. But I feel that continuing this relationship puts too big of a roadblock in our path to healing and recovering. It's a very difficult request to make, but I would prefer that you have no further contact with him. I know this would mean quitting the online games, leaving the gaming group where we've both made so many real-life friends, staying out of the chat rooms, and probably more. But as long as this continues, I'll have problems being able to heal myself. So, how are you feeling?"

She responded..."Well, you know how hard it would be for me to have nothing to do with him. But I know how much this is hurting you. It's not fair to you." *long pause*

I replied..."Well, I know it would be difficult. He's become a very important person in your life. That's not an easy thing to give up. But I feel that your relationship with him is hurting our marriage and our family. Also, I feel that it's not fair to either of us. To give us a fair chance to heal and grow and recover. Also, I would like you to know that, while all of this is getting out in the open, it would probably be the best time to share anything with me that you feel might hurt me, so that it's all dealt with at once."

So she told me that her and the OM were also "married" in the online game that they played, but that was all she could think of for "bombshells". Then, later, she said..."I'm so sorry. I wish I could just fix everything."

I said..."Well, you can't. But we can. You can help me, and I can help you, and together, if we both want it, we can fix everything, making it better than it ever was. But we both have to want it. We both have to be willing and able to take the time to work through the pain and problems. But I'm not going anywhere. I will be here for you, because I love you, so deeply love you, and that's what matters to me right now."

We talked a bit more, but mostly sat in silence, and then I said "I feel it would be unfair of me to expect you to make life-changing decisions right now, within the next few minutes before you have to get ready to go out. But if you feel that this is something that you cannot do, that you cannot promise me to stop all contact with him (and I'll bring up the no-contact letter if/when she agrees to the idea), then we might need to be apart. I can't keep living with these feelings that I have knowing that this other relationship is continuing. I can't be a part of this triangle."

That was pretty much the end of our conversation. She needed to get cleaned up to head out to get her nails and hair done. So here I am.

It is still SO hard to avoid the negative thoughts and feelings. But I actually feel better than I have in months, if only because I feel armed with the real truth.

Thoughts, impressions, ideas?

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Hello,

I think you did great. You expressed yourself and your love for her very well. You expressed what the consequences would be if she continues which would lead to at the very least a separation. You have now taken control of your life. I am sure your wife respects you a great deal more. Your words have forced her to reflect on the ramifications of what she is doing. You said what needed to be said. You are now the captain of your life once again. Congratulations. I wish you luck.

Uncomf:

Nicely done! Real plan A stuff!

The next several months, maybe even the next couple years, will be very hard, but you've done all the right things with this conversation you had.

My hat is off 2 you.
-2long

Well, I learned an important lesson...

Don't watch "The Bachelor" marathon with your wife right after these discoveries, especially when they take a special date to the same place where she went last weekend to meet him.

Jeebers...do the feelings come rushing back fast and furious! But, I didn't say a word, and I left the room when they started to show that date.

Just shut my mouth...I have to keep reminding myself. Just shut my mouth, and keep my sarcastic comments in check, especially when they'll be about that subject.

Whoa...this sure is some rollercoaster we're on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I think you have done so very well. Incredibly well! Congratulations!!!!

Leaving the room after being assaulted by triggers is a wise thing to do. It was honest. It will show her that you are very hurt by what she did (not a bad thing) but that you would not engage in hurting her back.

You are way ahead in the game. I know how it hurts. Just hang in there.

Good job!

Well, this weekend was pretty rotten (emotionally).

I finished His Needs Her Needs yesterday morning, and when my wife finally got out of bed around 11:30am, I gave her a bit of time to wake up, get some coffee, etc. Then I told her about a couple of the things I read in the book that had really opened my eyes.

First, how truly horrible I've been at meeting ANY of her needs, and how sorry I am about that. The only one I could think of that I've even partially met is Financial Support, but even then, she also held a full-time job the entire time we've been together (and her whole adult life for that matter), and maybe even that need hasn't been taken care of if, deep down, she really like to be a stay-at-home mom.

Second, I was finally able to discuss and explain something that had been a known problem in our marriage for quite some time, regarding MY inability to meet HER need for sexual fullfillment. No need to get into detail here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Let's just say that I had rejected her far too many times, and was finally able to dig up the repressed feelings for WHY I had acted in such an uncaring and unloving way. That my desire for her had always been there, every single day, and so on, and so on.

So anyway, I don't even remember saying anything about her reading it, but once we were done talking, she picked the book up and spent the rest of the afternoon reading the entire thing! I told her a couple of times how much I appreciated her taking the time to read it, how much it meant to me.

Anyway, she finished the book by around 5pm, but we haven't spoken even one word about what was in there. We haven't filled out any of the questionaires or anything. She finished it, then went on with the rest of her normal routine or whatever, as though nothing had changed. I don't want to press her on the issue, because it's only been a few hours of awake time. I'd like to give her at least a bit of time to process the thoughts and ideas before talking about them. But I was hoping that it might trigger some thoughts in her head that she'd like to share with me, but I got nothing.

In fact, I got nothing all weekend. Saturday night, I asked her if she'd thought about what I asked, about the no contact thing, and she said "I'm willing to give it an honest effort." I then mentioned the "NC Letter", how I would appreciate it if she'd let him know that she had made this decision, for the good of her family, her marriage, and herself, and would ask him to respect that decision, etcetera. I suggested some ways she could contact him that would be appropriate to her and I, since this is almost exclusively an Internet Affair.

We talked about sending an email, but also realized that he might think I had snuck ino her account and sent it instead of her. We talked about going into the chat room, we talked about going into the Voice Chat that they had used in the past, all so that I would know she had expressed this to him, and that he knew it was coming from her. But, nothing has happened yet. In this, I feel like I'm right back to D-Day Part 1, where she is once again stalling to let him know that what she's going to have to tell him is all BS, to prepare him for it, so that they can keep in touch from her place of work, at the very least.

Additionally, she's always been a very physically emotional person. Which is one of the reasons that my past rejections of her affections (I hate myself for that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ), have hurt her so much. However, she was totally, completely, 100% cold and distant to me all weekend. The only time she ever touched me was when we were both cuddling with our youngest daughter, who was feeling a bit sick. I hand my hand on DD's foot and was rubbing it some, and my wife put her hand there too, accidentaly touching my hand with the very edge of her pinkie finger. She immediately yanked it away, and then carefully placed it back so as not to actually touch me. Her reaction to touching me was very much the same as a person would have if they touched a hot stove or something. Complete shock and pain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I tried to show some affection, without being smothering, giving her little touches on the shoulder or knee as I walked by, rubbing her shoulders or feet for a little while, simple little signs of affection to tell her that I love her, and she never, even once, reciprocated, and usually looked as though she was just trying to endure the pain and suffering of my contact.

I did mention once, briefly, how much that hurt my feelings, and she expressed her own concerns for it. Being such a physical person (touchy-feely), she thought that it must say a lot about her feelings if she not only doesn't have the desire to touch me, but actually has negative feelings about it.

Well, last night, I lost it, but left the room before saying anything, so as not to have another one of my many angry outbursts. At about 4am, I was partially awake, and when I moved in the bed, I touched her with my foot, getting the same "quick escape" response. So I laid there for a minute while she adjusted, and when she did, she accidentally touched me with her foot, eliciting the same response. So she moved a bit more, touching me with her leg, which seemed like it almost launched her out of the bed, she moved so dramatically and swiftly. I jumped out of bed, grabbed some warm clothes, didn't say a word when she asked "What's wrong?", because I didn't want to say or do hurtful things (even though I was thinking nothing but, as well as thinking that I didn't give a rat's behind if I hurt her), and stormed out to spend the rest of the morning on the couch.

This morning, she asked why I left, if I couldn't sleep or something, and I just told her that I was upset, and that I didn't answer her when I left because I didn't want to have another angry outburst.

Anyway, she hasn't even said the simple "love you's" since, geez, maybe Thursday or Friday last week. This morning, when we both were leaving for work, she did initiae a hug, and the lean in as if to kiss. When I lened in to kiss as well, she turned her cheek towards me, and said "See you tonight."

We NEVER used to part without our last sentence containing, at the very least, the words "love you." You know, like "Bye, I love you." or "Love you, see you tonight.", things like that. This morning, all I got was "See you tonight." a hug, and a kiss on the cheek. And that after an entire weekend of absolutely, positively, not even one single shred of affection whatsover.

This stuff is too hard. Now, after feeling so positive Saturday morning, I feel so horribly negative. I don't like her. All I think about is the affair. The "What was she doing when?" questions. When she told me this...when she promised me that...when I wasn't around...

Honestly, I said it didn't matter if she had only kissed and cuddled, but I was wrong. And I am 100% positive that she is STILL lying to me when she says that was all. For instance, why, in her conversation with him Friday night, would she joke to him that "At least I know you don't wet the bed"?

Yea, that's just going for walks and talking and and just a couple of very short, very mild little kisses. I don't believe it, I just don't. Like this man would fly all the way across the country just to go for walks and have conversation with you. Like you had no plans to meet him there, despite the fact that he "just happened" to be in that city AND be staying in the same hotel as you on the same weekend.

Maybe she's got "a tell". Like in poker, when you can tell someone's bluffing, they play with their chips a lot or something. Maybe she's got some minor little sginal that I'm picking up on whenever she's lying to me, but I don't consciously realize it.

It makes me sick, literally. I want it to work out, but today, after this weekend, it's just a bad day. Right now, I can only think of her as a cold-hearted, disgusting, dirty little wh***.

I think today is a bad day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Micro-management and pride...that's me in a nutshell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's always the little things for me. No wonder people around me can't comprehend my reactions to things. They are such little things to the rest of the world, yet such important things to me. Yet, at the same time, I ignore the most obvious big things. Instead of appreciating the fact that she came to me and gave me a warm hug, I moan about not getting a kiss on the lips. Instead of being encouraged by the fact that she sat down and read His Needs Her Needs non-stop until she had finished it, I'm discouraged that she won't hold my hand.

I just need to find strength. I've never felt so vulnerable, so helpless, so out-of-control in my entire life, and I've put myself through some fine messes in my past.

I just don't know if I'm strong enough to get through this, no matter what the ultimate outcome is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I just don't know if I'm strong enough to get through this

That's a dopey thought!

You HAVE to get through this, you have no choice. This is your current reality.

You CAN choose to get through this with dignity and integrity ..... and grow larger as a man.

or you can whine. .... but don't "wine" ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am going through troubling painful times right now .... so I am not unsympathetic to your hurt .... but, what do you become as you pass through fire .... burnt toast? or forged steel?

Pep

Wow..

The State of Withdrawal

I was probably there for the past year or two. My wife probably joined me a short time later. I guess this A has finally shocked me out of mine. But it seems that the way I've handled it, some of the negative things I've said and done (LB's), as well as even some positive things (EN's), haven't helped any. Even the good things, she doesn't want any part of.

Hmmm...

And you know what?

When I re-read The Three States of Mind in Marriage, I realized...

In any given hour (maybe less), I go from giver to taker, from conflict to withdrawal to intimacy and back again, over and over and over and over...

This isn't healthy. No wonder I can't get anything done. My emotions are constantly bouncing all over the place.

Sorry...just going through my thoughts...maybe I should just write them to myself.

<small>[ November 24, 2003, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

And then, how do I ever believe anything she tells me?

This is a quote from a message she sent me before she left, when I was being a jerk after finding more things that had happened...

"I am going to Vegas and I swear to you ,on the love I have for my family, that I am unaware if he will be there, and even if he is there I am not interested in a fling with him, short or long term. I am sorry if that is unclear to you but it's the only way I can think to put things."

Well, guess what? Lies. She swears to me on the love she has for her family while still lying to me.

Sorry again. I'm a mess. I'm calling my doctor as soon as I hit this "Add Reply" button.

Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
And then, how do I ever believe anything she tells me?

See what you did here?

You added the word "ever" to horribilize your thoughts.

You cannot trust her right now. Forget about "ever".... don't go there.

Trust yourself to survive this rocky time.

Get medical attention .... you need an antidepressant.

You remind me of 2 Long in his early days.... and he's a guy I admire and who has saved his marriage by changing his attitude.

Pep

Here's today's news...

I'll be spending Thanksgiving Day with my parents, while she's at her Mom's with her family.

Friday, I'll be helping her move out.

She doesn't want to work on the marriage. She said so herself. I didn't even have to drag it out of her. She wants to "work on herself". I asked her what would be the best situation for her to do that, and she said if we didn't live together.

This isn't about the affair. This isn't about the other man. Those things are just tragic symptoms of a much bigger problem in our lives, a problem that she either doesn't want to deal with, or thinks that she can solve without me, or cannot solve with me.

She says she doesn't want to hurt me, and though she knows how much moving out will hurt me that, from a selfish point of view (her words), she doesn't want to have to see it on my face everyday.

So I told her that she's right. This isn't working. So I'd help her move out whenever she wanted to.

I feel like I shouldn't "let her go". Maybe having to see my pain everyday is "what she deserves", and by letting her run away, I'm not making her face up to what's happened and is happening.

But, on the other hand, I can't control her. And I can't continue to live in a situation where the person I have such strong feelings for doesn't share those feelings for me. Where the person I believe I'd do anything for, cannot or will not do anything I need.

I'm worried about the kids, and we're telling them tonight. I'm afraid of how they'll react, how this will affect them today, tomorrow, and for the rest of their lives. I'm afraid of never being called "Daddy" anymore.

So I'm seeing my physician today to see if I can get some meds to help bolster my strength for the near future. I'm contacting my lawyer to see about the legal process of separation, support, etcetera. She's opening a new checking account to separate our finances. And I plan to call the credit card companies to see if they can somehow freeze our accounts, so that neither of us is tempted run up the balances.

Best wishes to everyone here, especially everyone going through any kind of difficult time.

Bless you all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
<strong> I feel like I shouldn't "let her go". Maybe having to see my pain everyday is "what she deserves", and by letting her run away, I'm not making her face up to what's happened and is happening. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what do you folks think?

She "seems" to be telling me that she'd like to stay, and that she'd like to see if our improvements to ourselves will create improvements to our relationship. She "seems" to be asking me for some kind of guarantee that I won't be bombarding her with my depression and constant discussion of what's happened.

Maybe, with this Wellbutrin in hand, and a meeting with my IC tomorrow, I can get enough of a grip on myself to keep a civil home for our family while we work through this.

Again, I firmly believe that, in our case, this is not entirely about the OM. The A is just a symptom, not the reason behind everything she's thinking or feeling. But now, she's so negative, and she's always been the bright and cheerful positive one.

In that sense, I've been unfair to her, always leaning on her, drawing strength from her, yet seldom, if ever, returning the favor when she needed it.

Wow. I wonder if this medication is kicking in already. I only took it about 30 minutes ago, and this is the most positive thought I've had in days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Nevermind, it's not an option for her to stay.

We spent the better part of our lunch hours together talking about things, mostly hammering out the details of the separation. She doesn't want to hurt me, and even if I can show nothing but the utmost joy in everything I do, she'll still know that there's pain being dealt with (her guilt maybe?)

She's moving in with a relative on Friday, one who already watches the 8yo before and after school, since the school bus goes there, but not to our home. So it's already a place that the kids are familiar with and comfortable with, and won't cost her much more than the price of groceries to boot.

She wants no contact whatsoever, or as minimal as possible. Meaning no lunches, dates, phone calls just to talk, or anything beyond checking up on our finances. She'll be opening a bank account to put money into, but will keep her paycheck coming directly into our joint account to provide for the bills around here. From that, once a budget is worked out, she'll withdraw a weekly "stipend" for day-to-day expenses, plus some semblance of rent or something if she can get the relative to accept it.

I asked if she had considered a duration for this "no-contact" period (maybe a bad idea to ask?), and she said she had been thinking 2 weeks to a month. I mentioned that Christmas is a month away, and she said maybe until just before Christmas. I told her that, if it was going to be until, say, the week OF Christmas, without any kind of interaction, shopping, celebrating, decorating, and so on, that trying to suddenly get together a day or two beforehand was probabl a very bad idea. Thus, somehow, though not enthusiastically (nor was the "agreement" on her leaving in the first place), we seem to have agreed to no contact until after the new year.

So, basically, I've been forced into Plan B, like it or not.

She "seems" to be telling me that she'd like to stay, and that she'd like to see if our improvements to ourselves will create improvements to our relationship. She "seems" to be asking me for some kind of guarantee that I won't be bombarding her with my depression and constant discussion of what's happened.

??? I don't know about that .... but here's my suggestion.

You sit with her, hold her hand, look into her face and say something like this:

"We both are so hurt. We both need a safe place to express how we feel without also worrying that expressing our honest feelings will sabotage our relationship. Let's make each other a safe zone.

It will be emotional, but that's OK. Do you think we can do that if we work on it together?"

But now, she's so negative, and she's always been the bright and cheerful positive one.

What a burdonsome task, always the cheerful one. Tell her you see how unfair that was.


In that sense, I've been unfair to her, always leaning on her, drawing strength from her, yet seldom, if ever, returning the favor when she needed it.

You are getting good insights. Write them down for yourself in a journal.

So, basically, I've been forced into Plan B, like it or not.

No, you cannot be "forced" into Plan-B. Plan-B is when YOU decide your love bank is empty and in order to preserve your love for your wife, you separate so she cannot cause more damage.

You are not ready for Plan-B.

Still Plan-A.
Meet her EN's whenever and whereever you can.

Right now, she's in escape mode. She is running scared. If you mope and whine and carry on .... she's going to run away faster.

Steady. Be patient. be loving.
Pep

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Thank you Pep. It really helps to read the thoughts of others.

As for the "safe zone", although not expressed in that way, the idea has been discussed. She doesn't want that, or pretty much anything else to do with me. As of today, I truly believe that she feels like she can't escape soon enough. And in many ways, I can't say that I blame her.

Journal...hmm...maybe I should find a way to archive these discussions or something. I have NEVER been a good note-taker. Not ever in my entire life at all. So trying to actually create any kind of Journal would be so foriegn to me, it's not going to happen. But in a way, I don't know...this is a time to learn new habits that will be healthy for me.

I have the feeling that I'll have plenty of time for that soon, and maybe, if I feel motivated enough, I'll be able to do that. I'm just ne who thinks a ton, then expresses whatever is on my mind. The problem being that I often forget whatever it was I said once I've let it out. There's another bad habit to improve upon...hehe...