OK, Here's my story - it's a bit long.

We’ve been married for 7 years, together for 12, and have no children (a decision made before marriage). I found out that my H was having an A last June, and ever since then, I have been on an emotional rollercoaster. When I found out, I was shocked. When we finally stopped yelling and screaming about it long enough to talk about it in a civil manner, he made me realize how my behavior, in the past, contributed to what led him to the A. What I realized, more than anything, was that I had been so wrapped up in trying to manage our pitiful financial situation (which I blamed him for), that I neglected to pay enough attention to his emotional needs; I was taking his love for me for granted because I never imagined that he would ever do something like this. After coming to this realization, I accepted a lot of the blame, I became very insecure about myself and about his love for me, and I have bent over backwards to do whatever I can think of to make up for my past mistakes and change my behavior towards him. Unfortunately however, he had already fallen in love with her and still is. Consequently, he still hasn’t completely broken it off with her and, as you might imagine, there have been many lies, many battles and many tears.

Even though I believe that he hasn’t been seeing her much lately, I know that he still talks to her on his cell phone almost every day or whenever I’m not around. I know this because I check his voicemail, whenever I get the chance, and there are almost always messages from her and/or recent calls made TO her. Whenever I confront him with what I know, he gets defensive and usually makes me feel

We have had many long and deep conversations about this, as well as a lot of pretty bad arguments where we both become very defensive. But we are both trying very hard to work it out and avoid a divorce.

The OW also claims to be in love with him and she seems to have no qualms about the fact that he is married or that she is interfering in someone’s marriage. She claims to be a very strong and independent woman who is happy with herself enough to have never really needed anyone in her life in order to be happy. She says that it’s different with him, though. She’s told him that she just wants him in her life regardless of the inevitable struggles that she would have to face in order to spend time with him. Lately however, she’s been getting more and more frustrated and upset with him because he keeps breaking his promises to her, due to the fact that he’s trying harder to keep the promises that he’s made to me. I always knew that, eventually, she would come to depend on him more than she said she would and she would get discouraged. I keep hoping that, one day soon, she will finally get fed up enough to break it off with HIM and tell him to get lost, because I don’t think he will ever be able to end it with her, as long as she continues to be there for him. Shouldn’t there be a law against fooling around with someone who is married??!! I think there should be. Nevertheless, he keeps telling me that he’s “done with her.” If only that were true, I think that more than half of our problems would be solved and we both could finally concentrate more on our marriage and each other’s needs. But every time I think we’re getting close to that point, something happens to make me feel otherwise.

The night before Thanksgiving, we had another fight. So we decided to cancel all plans with family members due to our marital situation. Nevertheless, I went all out to surprise him with a very special Thanksgiving dinner, just for the two of us. He had been out on his motorcycle all day, but he did get home in time for the dinner. He was very surprised and appreciative because he thought that we weren’t even going to celebrate Thanksgiving. Later, we talked a bit more about the A and the OW. He told me that he just couldn't go on like this anymore, so he “hasn’t been calling her or seeing her anymore.” After he went to bed, I checked his cell phone messages again and found out, from another one of her messages, that he had been calling her all day. I confronted him again and we started to have another argument, but after he listened to the messages, he admitted his guilt again and apologized again. But this has happened too many times. I want so much to believe him, when he tells me what I want to hear, so I keep giving him the benefit of the doubt, only to find out that I was lied to again. So this time I told him that words don’t even count or matter anymore. I told him that one of us needs to find another place to stay because we need to separate for a while. I have tried to leave several times, but always ended up turning around and coming back. The problem is that neither one of us really has a place to go nor can we afford to pay for another place to stay since we are both unemployed right now.

One of my biggest dilemmas is that, whenever he’s not home, I can’t resist the urge to find out where he is, what he is doing and who he’s with. I always end up calling him or driving around, looking for him. I know that I need to stay away from him long enough for him to figure out how much he does or doesn’t want to keep me in his life. I often wonder if this is just some sort of mid-life crisis that will eventually end.

After reading almost everything on the MB site, I went out and bought “His Needs, Her Needs”. I'm in the process of reading it now. All of the information I have read, so far, has been extremely comforting to me just knowing that there are others out there who can relate to what I've been going through and to the extents that I have gone to in order to save my marriage to someone who just keeps lying to me. Sometimes I just feel like a complete FOOL! But I know that he loves me and is trying to do the right thing. He just hasn't been able to do enough, yet.

UPDATE: He finally found a friend to stay with, said he was going to, and I tried very hard not to call or check up on him….. until the wee hours of the next morning. And guess what…..He did it again.

I confronted him, told him to pack up and get out, he begged for mercy and we talked all night. He turned the ringer on his cell phone on so I could hear it, gave me his new password for his voicemail, and when she called again, he admitted to her (in front of me), SOME of the lies that he had been telling. Meanwhile, he’s been reading the stacks of information that I have printed from this website……… Once again, I’m hoping.

Start by being firmly in Plan A. Read all about it. Do not argue or LB. It is hard when WH is still in contact with OW. She is not as independent as she says or she would not be picking married men for her partner. I think you can beat this. Keep posting and read all about Plan A. When you feel like LBing and can't take it anymore, come here. Good luck and HUGs to you.

Sorry, I'm still new. What is LBing?

LBing = Love Busting

I have issues with you taking part of the 'blame' for the affair, let alone a lot of it. Of course, I have issues with the word 'blame', so let's use 'responsibility' instead.

You certainly hold some responsibility in the deterioration of the marriage and the marital situation that led to your H's consideration of the affair. His decision to go outside of the marriage to get his ENs met instead of some more productive and healthy alternative (such as *gasp* marriage counseling) is his and his alone. You bear no responsibility for that very poor decision.

Now, an affair is an addiction and I have no doubt that they really think they are in love with each other and feel accordingly. They all feel that way. They also all lie, say they never loved you, and all sorts of crap to justify what they are doing. The goal of all of this is to keep the source of the addiction - OW - in his life.

Now, what we need you to do for us is to tell us what steps you've taken to address the affair and make sure you read all of the Basic Concepts out here. If he hasn't sent a no contact letter, you need to ask him to. If he won't, then let us know that, too.

Also, it is not your job to prove he is where he is. He destroyed the trust and it is his job to rebuild it. He should be giving YOU proof that he is not in contact with her and proof of his whereabouts. It isn't your job to prove the affair is still going on - it is his job to prove that it isn't.

<small>[ December 03, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

TAKOLA: Thanks! I needed that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%. If your spouse is NOT willing to work on your marriage, is denying involvement in an affair despite the evidence, and/or is continuing an affair, read What Are Plan A and Plan B? after reading the "Basic Concepts" links below. In that case, you need to start Plan A with the help of a marriage counselor (see item #2, below). There are a couple terrific posts about Plan A that are worth reading at: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A, which will help you avoid some of the common pitfalls. Your situation is harder, but your chances of saving your marriage and actually making it better than before are still good. But, whether your spouse is "on board" or not, you should do three things:

1.) Learn. The most important and helpful single source of information for my wife and I was “Surviving an Affair” by Willard Harley (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore, Amazon.com, and bookstores all over. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them. So that you can get started right away, while waiting for SAA to arrive in the mail, read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Of course, that is just my opinions and what worked for me, who experienced it once, first hand. Harley, who has helped HUNDREDS of couples through this process, lays out his program in the following link: How to Survive Infidelity You will find that I mostly followed his plan. It works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks John, I'm going to buy SAA right now. Thanks for taking the time to respond as you did. I look forward to more replies.

She gave HIM a letter. She said that she doesn't think they should see each other, until he can get his s**t together and make a decision about his M. I doubt I'd ever be able to get him to write a letter. I'm just hoping there is no more cell phone contact. So far, I don't think there has been any since that day (Sunday morning). He swears that she hasn't called him and vv.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She gave HIM a letter. She said that she doesn't think they should see each other, until he can get his s**t together and make a decision about his M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That doesn't absolve your H of the responsibility of writing a no contact letter.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I doubt I'd ever be able to get him to write a letter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one comes out here thinking that they can get their WS (wayward spouse) to write a no contact letter. I know it seems impossible, but it can be done.

What steps has your husband taken to demonstrate to you that there is no contact?

Read SAA together, one chapter at a time, discuss each chapter, and do the exercises together. By the end of that, he will probably be ready to write the letter.

Howdy Keepin' the Faith,

You sure had me fooled on the name change! At first I thought someone else had hijacked your thread but since the number's the same... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...extremely comforting to me just knowing that there are others out there who can relate to what I've been going through and to the extents that I have gone to in order to save my marriage to someone who just keeps lying to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate only too well and know the frustration you are facing right now. The following comments may seem harsh at first but that is because I focus on doing what you can about YOU and YOUR actions, not his.

Adopting this approach wholeheartedly worked absolute wonders for me. What I read in your story mirrors my own experience so my suggestions/observations are both personal and rooted in the MB principles.

1. What believer has already mentioned needs to become your guiding principle: you need to stop LBing. Period. No excuses. Stop getting angry. Stop having fights. No matter what he does, you are in control of yourself so you need to develop a new way of relating to your H.

BTW: perhaps this will help you (it sure did me!) to think of it in this light -- changing the way you respond to conflict in your primary relationship is a new skill you are developing. This means you will not be wasting your time and effort no matter what the outcome: either it will help your marriage, or it will allow you to leave your bad habits behind. Either way, you will KNOW that you did everything you could to save your M.

2. In addition to stopping the LBs, it is really critical that you provide a safe listening environment for your husband.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whenever I confront him with what I know, he gets defensive...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd be happy to discuss this issue with you in much greater detail (how-to's etc.) but suffice to say, you need to move away from "confronting" and into a "sharing" mode of communication. The lies will not stop until this happens. Trust me on this one.

That said, your H may still continue lying, but then at that point you will know that YOU have done everything that YOU can to facilitate truth between you. Then you can make your choices accordingly knowing that despite your best efforts, he still continues to lie.

My H lied to me a lot. Then guilt and tears. Same story that you are telling.

Now he does not lie. Simple huh? I truly am still in a bit of shock at how well the safe listening environment solved our massive communication divide, which seemed to me to be irreconcilable ("sorry" would put me into an absolute fury..."if you were truly sorry, you'd stop lying!").

In fact, the lying was what was causing me to give up on the M, not the A itself. But as it turns out, he was very sorry, didn't want to lie, just couldn't deal (he thought) with the consequences of telling the truth.

Now the truth is something we discuss together rather than play hide and seek with it. He's learned to face the consequences of his choices instead of me imposing &#8220;punishment&#8221; (ie. the reason he is lying to you). Sometimes the consequence is that I am hurt, which I express to him honestly. But because he is now accepting this consequence himself, then he can make his own resolution not to do it again because he does not want to hurt me. &#8220;Sorry&#8221; means something to me now &#8211; it means he will take (not promise) concrete action not to do it again.

3. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...he made me realize how my behavior, in the past, contributed to what led him to the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H is still in fog/withdrawal which may last for quite some time yet. He's still holding you responsible for HIS actions...you'll know he's progressing when he starts to truly feel remorse, and offers no excuses for his behaviour and the hurt he has caused you. In short, when he accepts the consequences of his actions instead of excusing his unacceptable behaviour.

This cannot happen until the A is truly over. The A is not truly over until he sends a N/C letter/commits to N/C. You cannot control this outcome...it is up to your H to make this decision, hard as that is to accept.

4. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She gave HIM a letter. She said that she doesn't think they should see each other, until he can get his s**t together and make a decision about his M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't read too much into this -- from what I've read, this is a standard "ploy" to get a married man to commit.

The OW made similar "threats" to my H and even though they didn't work, she still issued them. Despite the fact that he had never agreed to leave me, pointedly told her that if he did, he would not be going to her, bluntly said he had no interest in moving in with her...you get the drift. But she still somehow managed to convince herself they were going to be married, have children, etc. etc.

OP can be in just as deep a fog as the WS, and live in a very rich fantasy land. Clearly the OW in your case is at the very least deluding herself about who/what she is...she is obviously not a strong and independent woman but her actions are likely to be extremely skewed by these same self-deceptions.

She's threatening your H to get him to re-commit to her. The good news is that she is feeling him slipping away from her and she is LBing him as a result of her fear. The bad news is that this is all about your H -- not her -- and he is not yet committed to N/C.

Once he is committed to your M, he will need to formally end their relationship, even if he hasn't seen her for months. There is a real benefit for both of you when he formally states his intentions to never have contact with her again.

Note: other MB posters disagree with me on this one. Many say you should "force" your H to send an N/C letter. In my opinion this will not work. Forcing makes it far more likely that he will break N/C because he wasn&#8217;t truly committed yet, and/or plant a seed of resentment in him that will seriously hamper your M recovery. But you&#8217;ll likely hear opposing points of view on this.

5. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I doubt I'd ever be able to get him to write a letter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You never know! Maintain a positive outlook. But...I'm very hard on people (BS) and LBing. You need to carefully look at your behaviour...ask questions if you don't see the problems you are perpetuating.

As Takola says, this has nothing to do with blaming you for your H's choice (to have an A), but until YOU do what YOU can about YOU and YOUR reactions, things are not likely to progress very far. I am firmly convinced that you need to work as a team to have a successful M recovery. The time to begin your teamwork is right now.

Since you cannot control whether or not he commits to the team, the technique you can use is to provide leadership and engage him. This worked extremely successfully for me, breaking down the old patterns and resentments felt by H and beginning the healing process for me.

At first H did not want to send the N/C letter -- felt it was a bad way to treat OW. But you don't have to argue...quietly, respectfully put forward your point of view and supporting documentation, again knowing that it is his decision to make. He'll do it when he commits to you and your M. The more you push, the more anger there is, the more demands he perceives &#8211; this makes him far far less likely to agree, to cooperate, to truly commit in his heart to reconciliation.

The sooner you can work together as a team, the faster your recovery will go.

Perhaps some of the things I've said are unclear and may even piss you off to boot! Perhaps you feel it is unfair to say there is more you can do, but that is the reality I see from your story.

I empathize with your pain, I understand it only too well, and perhaps this is why I have a feeling that you two can make it back from the brink as we did.

But it all begins with you, and the impetus remains with you in the foreseeable short term. Unfair isn't it? And the reward seems uncertain at best...but I can assure you that everything you read here about finally having the M of your dreams CAN come true. It begins with you...

Best of luck...awed

Yes, get SAA. Read it and make it your Bible during this time period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don't read too much into this -- from what I've read, this is a standard "ploy" to get a married man to commit. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">B-I-N-G-O!!!

I just want to take a moment and say...

Awed18...WOW! That made so much sense to me! Thanks for expressing your opinion here. I hope it helps clear the heads of others as much as it has for me, and I hope I can remember it too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Reminder for me: No matter what, DO NOT LB! Do not let myself get angry, do not let myself feel panicked, do not let myself dive into that well of despair. As soon as I feel even a twinge of anger or anxiety or negativity or whatever coming on, STOP! Do whatever it takes to compose myself, and come back to it later, if at all, when I can avoid those LB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Note that Cerri's link on Plan A has "Eliminate LoveBusters as point #1. This is not by accident. It is the most important part of Plan A, and it is the one part of Plan A that is supposed to be permanent, for the rest of your life, in all your relationships.

Yes, the first thing that you have to do in any situation is STOP THE HURT. People don't try to work with those that are hurting them, and people who are defensive don't have time to be introspective.

AWED18:

WOW AGAIN!!! Thank you SO much!!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Despite the fact that he had never agreed to leave me, pointedly told her that if he did, he would not be going to her, bluntly said he had no interest in moving in with her... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DITTO!! That is EXACTLY what my H said!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps some of the things I've said are unclear and may even piss you off to boot! Perhaps you feel it is unfair to say there is more you can do </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite the contrary. I loved everything you said, I don't mind constructive criticsm at all in this case. I'm going to print this whole thing out and keep it with me where I can read it over and over again.

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU!

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Keepin' the Faith ]</small>

I'm feeling a lot stronger today. I have a lot more faith this time. I really believe that he doesn't want to continue doing this to me and our marriage. I also think she is really trying to stay away and not call him. I'm pretty sure they will talk again, but I think they both want to cool things off for awhile, hopefully for good. He's just consumed with trying to get work right now, so he can make his motorcycle and truck payments. I've stopped paying his bills because I've run out of money and now looking for a job, too. He's a General Contractor, but looking for a job with other construction companies. So, right now, we need each other and he can't afford to go out to the bars anymore.

Meanwhile, I'm going to keep working on Plan A, reading the books, corresponding with you all & Keepin' the Faith.' Thanks again!