So I watched this thing one night last week. Can't remember which network had it on, but it was one of those news shows. All about the 'love story' between Amy Grant and Vince Gill and the soul searching they had to do before finally leaving their marriages and being together.

Talked about how they felt an immediate attraction to each other but that both said, "an affair was out of the question." And yet they stayed in touch and pined for each other for TEN YEARS... or close to it. I would say that was an emotional affair - something the producers of the show seemed to overlook when they put it together. And this in spite of the widespread discussion on emotional infidelity. Not just by Glass and Harley and Davis and others in the marriage industry but by all kinds of writers and researchers - particularly in regards to internet affairs.

The interviewer asked Amy a question that made my hair stand on end and my knuckles turn white, "What happens when you find your soul mate and it's not your spouse?"

What a terrible blow to the institute of marriage to perpetuate the myth that soulmates are someONE rather than the choices we make as partners to create connection, intimacy, love and romance in our marriages.

I'm not condemning Grant and Gill. I've been there I know how it happens. I think they made poor choices and I think they will struggle with pain and difficulty because of those choices. But I do take exception to our media that continues to portray infidelity as a love affair. Not just an excuse to leave a marriage and destroy a family - but almost as if it is a necessary action to take when finding that 'one special person.'

What would it take to change the view of infidelity in our society? What would it take to spread the word that affairs are addictions? We don't glamorize and glorify celebs drug use and abuse. We shake our heads and talk about the waste of life and talent. What would it take to begin to adopt that attitude toward infidelity - which is every bit as much a destructive addiction.

I don't pretend to have the answer to those things - but if one by one we take a stand against infidelity, if we educate the people around us regarding the terrible consequences of destroying families, if one at a time we refuse to buy into the myth that love is a reason to commit adultery - then maybe we can make a dent.

C

I know that we teach "D.A.R.E." and anti-drug messages throughout our children's school lives.

I also know that there are many high school classes on relationships, parenting, etc. Maybe we need to teach MB at the high school level!!!!!

DB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> Talked about how they felt an immediate attraction to each other but that both said, "an affair was out of the question." And yet they stayed in touch and pined for each other for TEN YEARS... or close to it.
<snip>
The interviewer asked Amy a question that made my hair stand on end and my knuckles turn white, "What happens when you find your soul mate and it's not your spouse?"

What a terrible blow to the institute of marriage to perpetuate the myth that soulmates are someONE rather than the choices we make as partners to create connection, intimacy, love and romance in our marriages.

I'm not condemning Grant and Gill. I've been there I know how it happens. I think they made poor choices and I think they will struggle with pain and difficulty because of those choices. But I do take exception to our media that continues to portray infidelity as a love affair. Not just an excuse to leave a marriage and destroy a family - but almost as if it is a necessary action to take when finding that 'one special person.' </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me get this straight, this woman spends ten years pining for another man who is her soulmate.

Thank you Ceri for your clarifying remarks. No doubt these people think their situation is unique or special. But, it is the same as that of my WW. She has spent years devoting her Romantic energies to the OM. He gets gifts and love notes while I get e-mail messages to remember to pick up eggs on the way home. Is it any wonder he looks some much better.

What is a soulmate? Is it somebody the WS spends time with at vacation resorts, luxury hotels and quiet intimate getaways? Is that what makes a person a soulmate? If so, then being a soulmate is pretty easy don't you think?

On the other hand if being a soulmate requires one to spend time building a home and family, going through the trials of saving a drug addicted child, and doing all of the things necessary to survive, prosper and hopefully enjoy life in our society, then I guess being a soulmate is very hard.

I am sorry for ranting. At times like this I get so very mad at my WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> We BS's get treated like a used up dishrag and then are told we don't have the goodies it takes to be a soulmate. Dang, I am furious!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ December 04, 2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: auto009988 ]</small>

What is a soulmate? Is it somebody the WS spends time with at vacation resorts, luxury hotels and quiet intimate getaways? Is that what makes a person a soulmate? If so, then being a soulmate is pretty easy don't you think?


Precisely. And when the going gets tough and real life sets in suddenly they aren't soulmate material anymore. So it does tend to make one cynical of the whole idea doesn't it?

How do you know it's your soulmate until you hit the rough patches? And since this is the time when people tend to bail (over and over again some of them) then you could theoretically have been mistaken about someone being your soulmate.

And if you can't know until the rough times then how can you make a commitment to anyone? The whole thing is a vicious circle unless you assume that once your found your SM that there will be no difficult times. And that as we all know is a fantasy of epic proportions.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:

How do you know it's your soulmate until you hit the rough patches? And since this is the time when people tend to bail (over and over again some of them) then you could theoretically have been mistaken about someone being your soulmate.
C [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which all leads back to what you stated earlier. To put it in my own words (and please correct me if I am wrong), "we build and maintain our soulmate relationships".

P.S. Thanks for letting me vent earlier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by auto009988:
"we build and maintain our soulmate relationships".

P.S. Thanks for letting me vent earlier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes!! That is it exactly. In fact this whole thing is so much on my mind that I think I'm going to write something about it for my yahoo group.

Vent away, but make positive changes while you're doing it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

I had originally posted my resposne to this Primtime segment in recovery:

I don't know what is about their situation that intrigues me, but it's both irresistable and sickening. I'm still trying to understand the point of the show.

I don't know if I want to be glad for them, or want them to fail or what...I just can't understand my own feelings about this.

I do know that anything to do with them is a trigger for both me and my wife. They seem so deliriously happy and we're having to work so hard to keep our relationship together. I love my wife tremendously, but it's shows like this that bring up that old nagging doubt I used to have quite often that I'd given up my chance at real happiness.

I try to tell myself that only a small percentage of affairs go on to become happy marriages and maybe Grant's and Gill's is one of them. I try to tell myself that the media is only going to show us what they want us to see.

The show narrator said that during the 90's after they had met but were still married that "an affair was out of the question." I think it's pretty obvious that they carried on an emotional affair - one that eventually destroyed their respective marriages. This wasn't noted.

All I'm really sure of is that I find myself unable to ignore them, but at the same time, I'm highly disturbed by them.

Low

Hi Low Orbit,

I had originally posted my resposne to this Primtime segment in recovery:

Ahhhhh primetime - thank you. I was very sleepy and couldn't remember who did it? Do you know the interviewer too? Is that ABC?


I'm still trying to understand the point of the show.

Interesting observation. I don't know that there was one, but why not show all the failed celeb marriages from infidelity. I want to find the wife of the guy that Julia Roberts married. She really fought the A and the b*tch that ruined her kids' family.

I don't know if I want to be glad for them, or want them to fail or what...I just can't understand my own feelings about this.

Don't you think that is the struggle with what we are culturalized to believe (that "true love" conquers all and justifies all actions even if it means hurting someone else) and what we know is true - that love takes hard work and commitment is more than 75% of the picture.

As I said, I don't condemn either one of them, nor do I wish them ill. But I do condemn the media that continues to glamorize infidelity and the concept that "love" is a reason to trash your vows and your kids' future.

I do know that anything to do with them is a trigger for both me and my wife. They seem so deliriously happy and we're having to work so hard to keep our relationship together.


Really? You thought they looked happy? I didn't see that. I saw hurt and guilt and a sadness that will never go away. I saw surface happiness, but there was real pain in Amy's eyes when she talked about the things she gave up. And, being a mom in a second marriage I know first hand the pain of seeing your kids grow up away from their dad and knowing that it is your fault.


I love my wife tremendously, but it's shows like this that bring up that old nagging doubt I used to have quite often that I'd given up my chance at real happiness.

As a former WS who is in a second marriage I can assure you that you did not. Your chance at real happiness lies in the choices you make each and every moment of your day. When you choose to be courageously transparently honest, when you reach out and meet needs, when you are willing to open yourself up to the risk of being vulnerable - those are the moments where your chance for real happiness lie.

I try to tell myself that only a small percentage of affairs go on to become happy marriages and maybe Grant's and Gill's is one of them. I try to tell myself that the media is only going to show us what they want us to see.

And what you don't see is the pain behind the scenes. Until you have been there, you have no idea. I live it every day and it never goes away.
And I think I have a very happy marriage.

I think it's pretty obvious that they carried on an emotional affair - one that eventually destroyed their respective marriages. This wasn't noted.

Absolutely.

All I'm really sure of is that I find myself unable to ignore them, but at the same time, I'm highly disturbed by them.

I think that being disturbed by this is a good thing. It makes you think and it can be the mind expanding thing that pushes you to do more to make your own marriage a success.

I tell people every day that if you think you are ever going to be in a LTR where there is no conflict and where things are good all the time - you are living in a fantasy world. Every marriage, even the best, are rife with conflict. It's not the conflict that is the issue, it's how you handle it.

Recovery is very much one day at a time and it is defined by the choices you make in the moment that move you either closer to or further from your goal of a joyous and fulfilling marriage.

C


Low [/QB][/QUOTE]

Yes, it was ABC. I don't really remember the interviewer - Diane Sawyer, maybe? No, that was the Britney Spears thing...

I think you're right about there being pain in Amy's eyes. But she must've thought Vince was worth it. She gave up everything for him. This 'affair' essentially destroyed her career as a Christian music icon.

I've read some about how Gary Chapman and the kids are dealing with the aftermath. It's not pretty, but Chapman showed amazing restraint when speaking about her and her new life. Her older kids were very angry with her. Chapman wanted to help them work through that.

Low

Yes, it was ABC. I don't really remember the interviewer - Diane Sawyer, maybe? No, that was the Britney Spears thing...

Gee.... sorry I missed the Britney thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL I think I'd rather watch football. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think you're right about there being pain in Amy's eyes. But she must've thought Vince was worth it. She gave up everything for him. This 'affair' essentially destroyed her career as a Christian music icon.

And this is exactly what an addiction (which is what an affair is) does to us. People give up their children, their children's future, their careers (I've seen people throw away 20 year military careers and businesses they worked their whole lives to grow), their homes, their financial security, their reputations and on and on it goes.

The reaction in the brain to pleasure (of having one's needs met) is very much like the reaction in the brain to the pleasure feelings of drugs or alcohol or the rush some people get from gambling or shopping. And when it reaches a certain thresshold - and depending on what our individual weaknesses are - we are pulled to that thing regardless of the destruction it wreaks on the rest of our lives and the pain that it ultimately causes us.


I've read some about how Gary Chapman and the kids are dealing with the aftermath. It's not pretty,

I'm sure it's not. The whole time I was watching this interview - with a horror that I said to cerrish was like watching an accident in progress - I kept thinking about the poor spouses of these two who have to be subjected to seeing the destruction of their homes and families glamorized and discussed on national television as a "Love Story." How awful. How tragically horribly awful for those two and for their kids.


Her older kids were very angry with her. Chapman wanted to help them work through that.

But there is no way to "work through" the effects of divorce on kids. Although they can and I hope will go on to build rewarding fulfilling lives, they are injured by the affair and divorce and will have to overcome obstacles that children from intact families (even conflicted unhappy ones) do not have to face. The evidence of that is overwhelming.

C

Cerri

I also feel pain when I watch a movie or a TV show that glorifies affairs. In fact, I simply refuse to watch anything that depicts affairs as “true love” or I’ve found my “soul mate.” There are far too many fantasies promoted by the media that result in the destruction of marriages. Men and women buy in to these fantasies and their marriage suffers because H is not the “knight in shining armor” or W is not the “sex goddess.”

I am intrigued by the power of attachment between people in an affair. I really am a bit frustrated because the various techniques used to end the attachment are only moderately successful. I realize that in the hands of trained counselors that deal with people directly that the techniques are far more effective than what I see on MB. However, I keep thinking that something is being over looked. Perhaps, that is my fantasy.

Ha-Ha

Beau

I hate to play Devils advocate but... some marriages just aren't meant to be.

That said, busting up a seemingly happy family (especially considering kids) is just about as wrong as you can get. Financial security goes a long long way towards making bad decisions easy to make.

I'm sure having a fat bank account makes things like this much easier to do, not to mention membership in the "celebrity circle" as I like to call it. As much as I loath the state of our so called "news media", I don't blame them. How many celebs have lifelong successful marriages? Ok maybe I do blame the media.. If there are lots of successful celebrity marriages, I don't hear about them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortimer:
<strong> I hate to play Devils advocate but... some marriages just aren't meant to be.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh really???? <she said with raised eyebrows that would have signalled to someone who knew her well that this is a topic that she is passionate about> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And what, pray tell, would make that so? And who gets to decide which marriages are "meant to be," and which are not? Is there a great book out there somewhere that metes out that judgment? And how does one in a marriage know if their particular marriage is "meant to be," and therefore they should put in the time and the effort and the internal work that will make it successful or if it is not, "meant to be," and therefore they could spare themselves the time and trouble and just move on?

C

I have to respectfully disagree with Son Of WFs statement that trained counselors are more effective at ending As than MB methods.

I can give several examples but here is one: H. had A., told me about it and said it was over. He also said he hadn't seem or spoken w/OW in 6 weeks.
I make appt. w/MC and read a little on this site (not in the forum, but one of the articles). I learn that H. should be out of w/drawal since he hadn't seen OW in 6 weeks, but something is wrong w/H. I bring this up at MC and say that something doesn't feel right, etc. MC ignores it. Starts talking about adult relationships, tells me to respect H's privacy if you can believe that!! Six weeks go by and H. still isn't acting right, I am an adult so I ask to see his email, H. declines, so I snoop. Didn't take me five minutes to determine that A. was still happening and that everything H. told me was a lie. MC says she can't believe it but that it "happens all the time during As"

Do you think think Cerri or the Harleys would have let me suffer for 6 weeks w/out access to passwords, phone bills, email accts. etc.? Would they have ignored me when I said that something doesn't feel right? How about anyone on this forum who has read the books and is familiar with the principles? Nope, don't think so. I'm not the only one either. This sort of stuff happens all the time with traditional MC.

Sorry, but I had to get that out. With my H., as soon as I said you need to leave, he ended A. I still persuaded him to leave though.

But, I think Mortimer is right too. A bunch of us BSs have to look hard at our financial situations. Maybe we are stay-at-home moms who will have to get a full-time job, sell the house and uproot the kids making the divorce even more difficult. Maybe we are dependent on two incomes to maintain our standard of living. Whatever it is, if we stay because of finances and make it work, we'll be better than rich anyway, right?

<small>[ December 06, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: starving ]</small>

Mortimer

Thanks for your comments. I was speaking about the media globally not so much about celebrity marriages. I suppose one could argue that the media feeds us what we ask for. As for me, I would like to see positive, supportive, value oriented programming as opposed to movies that speak to negative and distructive aspects of humanity.


Starving

Again thanks for your comments. I didn't express my self completely. I was talking about counselor's that use MB concepts. I would think that having the opportunity to speak directly to the affected couple using MB principles and concepts would be more effective that the MB board alone. I am frustrated that the fantasy of an affair is so difficult to stop.

Beau

SOW:
Sorry about the misunderstanding...I see what you meant now. Didn't mean to jump all over you..

Here's another one, though it occurred on radio not TV. I heard an interview this morning with Yoko Ono, John Lennon's second wife. They talked wonderfully about John and how Yoko keeps his memory alive. All fluff and nice stuff, very warm and loving.

But, if I remember correctly, was not Yoko the OW in John's first marriage? Was she not the woman whom JL committed adultry with? If it is true, I can assure you none of this was brought up. I don't remember them mentioning his first wife or his child by his first wife.

I guess they don't count. Or my memory is bad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortimer:
I hate to play Devils advocate but... some marriages just aren't meant to be.

And what, pray tell, would make that so?

The ones that are no more?

And who gets to decide which marriages are "meant to be," and which are not?

Those who are in them?

Is there a great book out there somewhere that metes out that judgment?

Doubt there's a book, but I would think an A would be pretty good justification should the BS see fit

And how does one in a marriage know if their particular marriage is "meant to be," and therefore they should put in the time and the effort and the internal work that will make it successful or if it is not, "meant to be," and therefore they could spare themselves the time and trouble and just move on?

I dunno, but it sure would make life easier. Depends on each individuals attitude I would say. I guess I'm pretty cynical about it, sorry, but I do believe some folks make big mistakes getting married "to each-other". Sadly, I've been correct in my cynical outlook on marriages I've witnessed too many times to think otherwise.

C

<small>[ December 20, 2003, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: Mortimer ]</small>