Hi everyone!

It's been quite a few months since I have posted on this board. So much has happened. When I first posted I had found a love letter that my husband had emailed to this woman whom he had an emotional affairs with several years ago. We had a lot of problems in our marriage, emotional, sexual and maybe finding this was a clue to me that things could not go on the way they did. I received some very helpful advice on this board.

After a few weeks of turmoil, things actually got better and we were able to reconnect, at least sexually, in a way that we have never had before in our marriage. It was and still is not that easy, but the our sexual relationship has really blossomed.

Shortly afterwards, I received some devastating news during a mammogram. A rather large tumor was found in my right breast and the doctors did not not if it was cancerous or benign. I went through the entire month of October in pretty much a brain fog. I was so scared because women at my age (34) don't usually think about things like breast cancer. During that time, I felt like all the things that I worried about in the past didn't even compare to the fear that I had about cancer. The tumor was rather large and I had a lumpectomy performed in late October. The tumor was benign! I thank God every day for this. I used to really take my health for granted and boy has this naive thinking been ripped brutally from me. But I feel like I have also grown through this experience and I have learned a tremendous amount about my body and my health. My husband was a tremendous help during this time to me. He tried his best to be with me, calm me and gather useful information. I think in a way it bonded us together and we were both very scared.

But during the same time, he tried to reach out to many people for help including the other woman again because he needed someone to talk to about all of this and his fears and concerns. I guess, my intuition made me second-guess it and I just flat out ask him. I became extremely angry and even punshed a hole into the bedroom wall.

After the breast cancer scare, he decided that we needed a some time away together and we went on vacation to California for ten days. It was the best time that we have had in a LONG time. We relaxed, made love and enjoyed ourselves. We were even able to talk about all of the things that had happened during the last four months in a calm collected way and I felt better. He says that he loves me and he wants to be with me, that I'm his soulmate and he needed some time to put all this stuff behind him. These were some of the best talks that we had in a long time, without tears, crying, fighting or yelling.

As soon as we got back home though, I felt this nagging feeling of insecurity again. I have such a hard time regaining trust and I often think about the other woman and him and it makes me tear up and sad. I don't want to live this way. This is not me. I don't want to be a jealous and suspicious person. I don't know what I can do to get over the trust issues. My dh says that he loves me and that things will get better, but he does not give any suggestions on how things can improve or get better.

He keeps saying that this other woman is just a friend and that the stuff that he wrote to her was during a time when things in OUR marriage were bad, but now that we are getting so much better, he no longer writes this. She is engaged to be married this Spring. When I was in the hospital during my surgery, she and her fiance called my husband's cell and they said that they are thinking about me and praying for me to get better. It almost made me sick to hear this. I feel confused and irritated.

How long does it take to get trust back. I just don't know how to react. I hate myself when I get these meltdowns because it shows him how much I am hurt.

Kati

When you posted here in Sept, I suggested you click on the link in my signature line to find out about the path to recovery. I see no evidence from your post that you have done the things suggested therein. You may not have felt it was necessary to do so because it was "only" an emotional affair, but the process of recovery from an emotional or physical affair is the same. Furthermore, one of the points of recovery is NO CONTACT with the affair partner ever again for life. It sounds like your H is stillin contact with her, though I can't be certain from your post. If so, as long as he is in contact with her, you will not recover, and you will never learn to trust him. Also, recovery usually takes 18 mos to two years, so you are not even half-way there yet. He hasn't earned your trust back. Why should you trust him before he has proven himself trustworthy? The following may be helpful to you on the trust issue.: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> …I knew that people who get divorced once are likely to get divorced again, and usually for the same reasons, and I did not want to find myself in the same place some years down the road. But, I was not sure I could overcome the pain, I had no idea how to re-establish trust, I frankly didn’t know if I could forgive her, and I had no desire at all to go back to the way things were, because frankly they were pretty miserable (even pre-A) for me

So, the first thing I did was go to God and repent of a couple of habitual “minor” (in my eyes) sins, so there would be nothing between God and I that would get in the way of our communication. I spent many hours in prayer asking God to show me my sin. I think at some level I thought the A was my fault. While I no longer think that, that time of humbling myself before God was really crucial to our recovery. Because, I HAD sinned, and had gotten so distant from God that I was unaware of many of my sins, so He did show me. As I agonized over what my wife did to me, it became clear that I had done almost identical things to God. That helped keep me from self-righteousness and arrogance which are poison to any recovery. Also, if I expected Him to forgive me, I had to forgive her. That got me a long way down the forgiveness road, but forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. The pain and trust issues remained barriers to reconciliation. It turns out the pain fades with time, if the actions that produced it are not repeated. That leaves trust, and trusting that the actions will not be repeated, as the sole barrier to reconciliation.

As far as I can discern there is really only one approach to re-establishing trust, and a couple of well-established ways to get there. In both cases, the bottom line is: believe their actions, not their words, at least until you have seen a consistent pattern of their words and actions being aligned for a period of many months. That necessarily means you have to be more involved in their lives so that you have the ability to verify that their actions and words are cohesive.

The path to get there, according to Willard Harley, is to have no secrets from each other, and to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) in all your decisions. Once you see your spouse consistently use the POJA, and the two of you have learned to understand each other and communicate with each other well enough to implement it, you will trust them when they are out of sight, too. Perhaps ironically, one thing that will convince you of your spouse's honesty is if they tell you things they know will hurt, instead of lying or keeping silent to "protect" you. So this process will likely not be painless, especially since, if you are like most couples, it will require learning a new way to communicate. Change is hard.

A second path, promoted by Carder in “Torn Asunder” (and the younger Harleys, too, I think), is for the WS to really dig in to the "WHY?" of the affair, and in gaining that self-understanding, communicate to you both why it happened, and how they will change their behavior in ways that you can verify and that will prevent them from having another.

Of course, these two paths are not mutually exclusive. I view them as complementary, and think “Surviving an Affair”, by Harley is extremely helpful in figuring out important parts of the why, at least as far as the answer involves unmet Emotional Needs, and it almost always does, especially for a woman who has an affair.

The fallacy is the belief that unmet EN’s “cause” affairs. If that was the case, I would have had the affair, not my wife, because my EN’s were less well met in our marriage than hers.

Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is a so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and according to him, in about 40% of MEN'S affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionnaire. 2.) Meet your spouse’s EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 40%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken particularly the chapter on "The Double Life Man". Though the percentage of women who have this type of affair is small, it is not zero. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One last thing: As a conflict avoider, I had to learn that "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Tape it to your mirror.

<small>[ December 05, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hate myself when I get these meltdowns because it shows him how much I am hurt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And why do you want to hide yourself from your husband?

Thank you for responding so quickly, John. I understand perfectly well that the end of an affair means 'no contact' with the other woman and after reading your post, I think that maybe there is just not any hope for us. He will NOT stop contact with the other woman. I have no way of controlling it. I have asked him several times, but he will not do it. He said that she is just a 'friend' that he has had for almost eight years now. He says that there was a time in his life when things between her and him got out of control because of her own relationship problem and then ours. He says that this has stopped and that he no longer communicates with her in this way. He also knows her fiance and they have all gone out before to dinner etc. I don't think the fiance knows that my husband and the other woman wrote those sorts of emails to each other.

My husband now says that there is just sporadic contact on a friendship basis and that she is getting married soon.

I cannot verify any of this though.

From reading your posting, I think that there is really no way for us to recover from this since I cannot get him to not contact her. I have absolutely no idea what is really going on between them.

Your quote below really made me think. My husband hardly ever talks to me about this issue. He is completely silent. I can rant and rave, cry, scream or talk completely calm, but it will not make him open up. I would rather have him tell me things that would hurt me because at least it would be out on the table and I wouldn't have to 'wonder' anymore. He just sits there and stares and does not say a word. One time, he told me that he doesn't know how we can ever get past this if I cannot 'let it go' and stop harping on it and bringing up the 'issue'.

He keeps bringing it up that he loves me, wants to be with me, wants children with me, then WHY in the world does he not want to resolve these issues first???

I'm at a complete loss. I'm beginning to think that maybe there just isn't much hope for us. How can I ever bring this to a rest if he doesn't help out?

Regarding your seond posting, I don't want to hide myself anymore of my husband and that is why I allow myself to have these meltdowns even if this bothers the heck out of me, but I WANT him to see that I'm hurt.

Kati


[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnh39:
Perhaps ironically, one thing that will convince you of your spouse's honesty is if they tell you things they know will hurt, instead of lying or keeping silent to "protect" you. So this process will likely not be painless, especially since, if you are like most couples, it will require learning a new way to communicate. Change is hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> One last thing: As a conflict avoider, I had to learn that "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Tape it to your mirror. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it's kind of funny how and when realizations can come to you. When I read this, I finally understood something about myself.

I've always felt that I was a "conflict avoider". In just about every situation, I can see it in my thoughts and actions. But then, I also thought that my angry outbursts were a sign of "inviting conflict". That doing that was creating conflict. But now I see that it wasn't! Now I see that it was just another tool to avoid conflict!

I would have an angry outburst, essentially screaming about what I want or what I think should change. I would do so in an attempt to create such a hostile environment that the other person wouldn't want to respond. Then one or both of us would walk away to "cool off".

That's not creating conflict! How can you be creating conflict if you're creating a situation where you won't be interacting with the other person? Creating that situation is, in essence, the very definition of avoiding conflict!

I'm sorry. I don't mean to hijack anyone's topics. But I just had to share that sudden understanding before I forgot about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's very interesting. I have never thought of it like this. I also have angry outburts. Usually it starts with something totally different and then it just escalates and then I give it one more thing to top it all of. My husband usually just shuts completely down when I get like this. I guess, one cannot reasonably talk to a person who is not in control of her emotions anyway.

I would like to know how to create conflict that can truly lead to intimacy and so that I can get my husband to talk. I would much rather go through the hurt and hear unpleasant things about myself or than all of this avoidance. This is really hard to take.

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong> One last thing: As a conflict avoider, I had to learn that "Conflict is the doorway to intimacy." Tape it to your mirror. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it's kind of funny how and when realizations can come to you. When I read this, I finally understood something about myself.

I've always felt that I was a "conflict avoider". In just about every situation, I can see it in my thoughts and actions. But then, I also thought that my angry outbursts were a sign of "inviting conflict". That doing that was creating conflict. But now I see that it wasn't! Now I see that it was just another tool to avoid conflict!

I would have an angry outburst, essentially screaming about what I want or what I think should change. I would do so in an attempt to create such a hostile environment that the other person wouldn't want to respond. Then one or both of us would walk away to "cool off".

That's not creating conflict! How can you be creating conflict if you're creating a situation where you won't be interacting with the other person? Creating that situation is, in essence, the very definition of avoiding conflict!

I'm sorry. I don't mean to hijack anyone's topics. But I just had to share that sudden understanding before I forgot about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He keeps bringing it up that he loves me, wants to be with me, wants children with me, then WHY in the world does he not want to resolve these issues first??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he is an ADDICT!!!!! Addicts will do ANYTHING to keep using their drug of choice.

You are nowhere near recovery. You should be in plan A. This includes confronting her and her boyfriend/fiance. Do you know what he means when he says their relationship was "out of control"? Does her BF? Does she? Her perspective on their relationship might be different than his. I suggest confronting her with something like: I feel like your relationship with my H is interfering with our marriage, and I would appreciate it if you would have no further contact with him. She may blow you off, but it can't hurt to try, as long as you are respectful.

Gee, how to do conflict constructively... i don't think I have time to go into that (it would be a book). The bad thing is, it is even harder to do than to describe. I still struggle with this a LOT, and in fact am going back to our MC for the first time in over a year, alone, just to deal with this issue.

Some things have helped me, though.
1.) using "I feel" statements
2.) Gary Smalley's writngs on "drive through talking", and "emotional word pictures" (sorry, no title help - we had a flood and they are packed away for now - try a Christian bookstore that carries several of his books and look at the chapter headings - those words might not be in the chapter title, but it will be something about communication)
3.) Gottman's writing in "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" on conflict and how to resolve it.
4.) Harley's writings on the Policy of Joint Agreement (see the Basic Concepts section of this site, or the book "Fall in Love, Stay in Love")

<small>[ December 05, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

John,

'Out of control' according to his words meant writing emails to her that were inappropriate and interfered with our marriage. I found these emails by accident on the computer. He said that he loved her, missed her and those sorts of things. I could not find anything, however, that would conclude that they had a physical relationship though. He said that they never slept together. The strange thing is that in those emails, she did not respond in the same matter than he did. She never wrote 'I love you' or 'I miss you' or anything like this. She mainly wrote everyday things like about work, sports etc. This is what confuses me even more.

One time, during one of my angry outburts, I told him that I was going to contact her and her boyfriend and confront her with the situation. He got really angry and told me that if I do that, then that's it. He said that I would cause a lot of grief in her life and whatever happened is not worth me doing this. He said that SHE is not the problem, but what was and is going on between US. I understand that, but then as long as she is in the picture, I feel like I cannot move on. There is just no way.

My husband says that he knows her fiance and that they have all met before for dinner, drinks etc. Why would he do that?

Their friendship has been going on for about eight years on and off.

I have never met this woman and I don't know what she looks like.

I'm not sure if confronting her and her bf would solve a lot. I'm afraid, it might bring her closer to my husband.

Kati


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:

You are nowhere near recovery. You should be in plan A. This includes confronting her and her boyfriend/fiance. Do you know what he means when he says their relationship was "out of control"? Does her BF? Does she? Her perspective on their relationship might be different than his. I suggest confronting her with something like: I feel like your relationship with my H is interfering with our marriage, and I would appreciate it if you would have no further contact with him. She may blow you off, but it can't hurt to try, as long as you are respectful. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He got really angry and told me that if I do that, then that's it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You would be threatening his addiction. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The strange thing is that in those emails, she did not respond in the same matter than he did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said: "Her perspective on their relationship might be different than his." Her relationship with him may not be problem for her or her relationship with her boyfriend/fiance. Maybe she feels sorry for him. Maybe she likes him but "not that way" and does not want to hurt him by telling him to get lost. Who knows? Who cares. If you show her BF those emails, he will surely understand the danger he poses to her and them, even if she does not. It is probably your best shot at disrupting their (your H and her) relationship. Any of these actions can destroy your realtionship wiht your H, but the chances of that happening are actually quite small. The chances that your relationship will survive with her in the picure not good at all. A marriage cannot survive when there is another person involved. It may die slowly, but it will die. So you are trading a VERY small risk that exposure will destroy your marriage now for a very GREAT risk that their continued relatinship will destroy your marriage (and perhaps hers, as well) eventually. Your choice.

As for why he would meet her fiance? Who knows? He could be lying. It could have been unavoidable. It could have been to maintain the self-deception that they are "just friends".

Speaking of which: I have heard "Not just Friends" by Shirley Glass is excellent. Maybe you should read it together.

I appreciate your input, John. This is going to be very difficult for me, but I see that there is no other way around it. I don't have an address for her though. I accidentally found her name through his phone log and I know which town she lives, but I do not know her street address and I do not know her bf name. Only her mom and brother are listed in the directory by name and address.

I do not wish to call her or email; I would rather meet in person. I'm not nervous about meeting them, but maybe it would help put things behind or at least understand the truth. Hopefully!

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
If you show her BF those emails, he will surely understand the danger he poses to her and them, even if she does not. It is probably your best shot at disrupting their (your H and her) relationship. Any of these actions can destroy your realtionship wiht your H, but the chances of that happening are actually quite small. The chances that your relationship will survive with her in the picure not good at all. A marriage cannot survive when there is another person involved. It may die slowly, but it will die. So you are trading a VERY small risk that exposure will destroy your marriage now for a very GREAT risk that their continued relatinship will destroy your marriage (and perhaps hers, as well) eventually. Your choice.

Speaking of which: I have heard "Not just Friends" by Shirley Glass is excellent. Maybe you should read it together. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">