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Joined: Dec 2003
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Hi everyone. I really hope you can help me get through this.

Here it goes:
I have been married for a little over six years (no kids). I am 29 years old, very conservative.
Ever since we got married and even before our marriage my husband used to tell me how frustrated he felt with me satisfying him as a man. ( I have never been much of a "sex" or intimacy lover). I would much rather caress and cuddle and hug all night. That is not to say I didn't try to change my ways and tried a little harder...I did!!!

I finished a masters degree las November (after two years of going to school)...after that was done I remember thinking to myself that now I was really going to be able to give it my all and things would really change...how naive!...

A couple of times again it happened that we would have the "you are not satisfying me talk"...and I just cried and cried and told him I would try harder because I didn't want to loose...I just love this guy too much.

Finally last Thanksgiving I noticed that he was not being quite himself and once again I asked (with a big fear of what I thought I would hear) what was wrong...he started to tell me AGAIN how he still wasn't happy and he understood that I was trying and he could see it but is just wasn't enough for him and he had come to the conclusion that we are just different people and maybe we just made a mistake when by getting married. I cried, of course (if you look up sensimental in the dictionary there will probably be a picture of me int there!). Anyhow, I cried and cried and finally told him that all I wanted was for him to be happy because I didn't want him with me if he wasn't happy and if he wanted to separate (even though I would be destroyed, that was ok with me).
The next couple of days we talked about what we would do...I told him he could keep the house(he has always loved our house and I thought if any one of us should keep it, he should)...so, the division of assests continued on and on...with me of course crying everystep of the way but assuring him that I would be ok and if this is what it took for him to decide if I was the one then that was ok.

Then Sunday came along (i was waiting for a good frined of mine to get back from vacation and I was going to move in with them for the next two weeks and then after I got back from Christmas vacation at home I would move into an appartment)...well, he all of a sudden got that weird look in his eyes again...and then he told me that he couldn't do it. He said he couldn't loose everything we had together and that he realized that there are many other things that are also important in addition to his sextual satisfaction and he was willing to give it a try.
He asked to change my vacation plans and stay with him. He said everything was going to be ok.

I was soooo happy!...I called my mother and told her that I wasn't coming home after all, I cancelled my plane ticket and then it happened...he was out walking the dogs...for longer that usual but I didn'think much of it...
when he got back he had that look on his face...again!! I thought to myself, oh no, he changed his mind and without him even saying a word I started crying...

He said he hadn't changed his mind, he really wanted to be with me and start over, give our life together another chance and to do that he needed to come clean...he told me he had been having an affair.....

I was sooo surprised..never would have expected those words to come out of his mouth...I asked with who and if I knew her, I asked for how long...he said a co-worker, someone I didn't know and a couple of months.

I was so confused, upset, sad, dissapointed, angry and so many other feelings...I got up and left. I drove around thinking and when I finally made it back home about three hours later he was there...asking me to forgive him...promising that he would never do it again.

When I finally calmed down a little we talked and talked and he admitted that the couple of months were actually more like a little over a year!!!.
To make the story short, I also found out (through his cell phone records) he has been seeing this woman 2 or 3 times a week at lunch time, saturday mornings on his way back from tennis....oh, and by the way, I know who she is.

We have done nothing but talk these past weeks, needless to say I have no energy for anything...I can't even make it to work...all I do is think and cry. It's the usual I can forgive but I am having a hell of a time forgetting. Everythime we kiss the thought of him with this other woman just comes flying into my mind...I know it's really hurting me and I should get over it but I can't.

I stopped by this forum last Friday...and read some of the postings...I run out to Barnes and Nobles and bought SAA and His Needs/Her Needs...
I read SAA Saturday and His Needs/Her Needs on Sunday...wow, I couldn't believe it when I read them...they really helped and if I had read them before all this happened I probable wouldn't be in the position I am in right now.

In any case, my husband swears that he ended the relationship with the OW on that Sunday before he told me about it. He says I need to trust him (yeah right!) that he will not do it again. It takes two is what he says and he chooses me not her.

What do you think? Advise anyone?

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Read SAA again...together. Discuss each chapter. Do the exercises, and the questionnaires together. Also, get a copy of a good book on sex. "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch for the non-Christian, A Celebrations of Sex" by Rosenau if you are Christian. I don't think either of you understand that your desire for caressing and cuddling, IS about sex and intimacy. And, read upon the Policy of Joint Agreement and apply it to your sex life.

Beyond that: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%. Do three things:

1.) Learn. The most important and helpful single source of information for my wife and I was “Surviving an Affair” by Willard Harley (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore, Amazon.com, and bookstores all over. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them. So that you can get started right away, while waiting for SAA to arrive in the mail, read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Of course, that is just my opinions and what worked for me, who experienced it once, first hand. Harley, who has helped HUNDREDS of couples through this process, lays out his program in the following link: How to Survive Infidelity You will find that I mostly followed his plan. It works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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Feelingverysad - Welcome to the MB board. Sorry you are here, but you have come to the right place. You have a lot in your favor - H came to you and told you the truth, and has no contact with OW. Most WS's don't admit affair, even when caught. Also lots of them refuse to have no contact with OP. So you are doing better than many already. All BS's go through the terrible pain of betrayal for a long time. It is miserable, but does get better. You may need to get some anti-depressants from your doctor. They really help. Also keep reading here and posting your thoughts. You will get lots of support and advice from folks that have been through the same thing. I'd advise you to get professional help for sexual issues. If your H wanted your sex life to get better, he couldn't have made a worse mistake. Women especially need to feel safe and cherished to have a great sexual relationship. This will be a huge setback in that area, but nothing that can't be fixed. Keep posting and hang in there. You won't believe this now, but things can get much better than before all this happened.

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FVS - In many ways I envy you. Yes I do! Your spouse has made some type of commitment to preserving your marriage which is more than many have including mine. That is a major advantage because you can't rebuild the marriage yourself.

Believer - men also need to feel safe and cherished to have a great sexual relationship. Having lost the safety and the cherries (?!?!) I know that for a fact.

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Thank you so much for your support.

I think you would all believe me when I say I am trying. It's just so hard. I tried asking him to read the books with me but he doesn't want to. He says he doesn't need a book to tell him how he feels or what to do. It has only been a week since the news and I am feeling like he is already giving up on me...he says I think too much. How can I not? I mean, am I wrong to think? Everything he has been saying to me for the last year has been a lie nevertheless he wants me to just believe him because he says he will never do it again. This is a real concern for me...this girl doesn't work directly with him but the probability is still there that they will see each other at some point. When we talked he said that he had tried to finish the affair at least 10 times and he always kept going back becuase she persuaded him to. How does he expect me to believe him that he will not do it again...I am sure she will call again...and he won't give me the passcode to his cell phone so that I can see for myself if she has called. I ask everyday if she has called or e-mail and he says no....I am not so sure about that. Well, I guess only time will tell. I just don't think I can go through this again.

I have an appointment with a marriage counselor and I am hoping she can recommend a sex therapist...I also bought two books (wow, Barnes and Nobles is really going to like me after these one!). I bought "The Joy of Sex" and "How to be a great lover". I know these wont fix the problem but I am hoping they will help.

Thanks again for your comments and advice.

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Auto - That's news to me. Not to bash men, but most that I've known wouldn't even be stopped by an earthquake or hurricane. Women, on the other hand need everything to come together just right to have enjoyment.

But to get back to the question at hand - when a WS exposes the affair and is sorry, they have way more credibility in my book. Most continue to lie to continue the affair. So your H has shown by his actions that he can be trusted - a little. Be thankful that your H did have the honesty and integrity to let you know. In my case it was not the affair that brought our marriage down, but the continual lies, coldness, and lack of remorse. Then when H continued to see OW, knowing how much it hurt me, that was it. Hang in there and follow MB program. You can do this.

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In my experience, the "Joy of Sex" was much less helpful than "His Needs, Her Needs". Any decent sex therapist (Schnarch is one) will look at your sex life in the context of your relationship. The Joy of Sex does not do that. It's great for technique, but that is all. Sex is about MUCH more than technique. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He says he doesn't need a book to tell him how he feels... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right. So? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...or what to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you have no reason to believe that he knows ANYTHING about what to do, because he has done exactly what he should not have done for quite some time now. How is he going to prove to you that he has changed? I hope the following about re-establishing trust is helpful: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...but forgiveness and reconciliation are two separate things. The pain and trust issues remained barriers to reconciliation. It turns out the pain fades with time, if the actions that produced it are not repeated. That leaves trust, and trusting that the actions will not be repeated, as the sole barrier to reconciliation.

As far as I can discern there is really only one approach to re-establishing trust, and a couple of well-established ways to get there. In both cases, the bottom line is: believe their actions, not their words, at least until you have seen a consistent pattern of their words and actions being aligned for a period of many months. That necessarily means you have to be more involved in their lives so that you have the ability to verify that their actions and words are cohesive.

The path to get there, according to Willard Harley, is to have no secrets from each other, and to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) in all your decisions. Once you see your spouse consistently use the POJA, and the two of you have learned to understand each other and communicate with each other well enough to implement it, you will trust them when they are out of sight, too. Perhaps ironically, one thing that will convince you of your spouse's honesty is if they tell you things they know will hurt, instead of lying or keeping silent to "protect" you. So this process will likely not be painless, especially since, if you are like most couples, it will require learning a new way to communicate. Change is hard.

A second path, promoted by Carder in “Torn Asunder” (and the younger Harleys, too, I think), is for the WS to really dig in to the "WHY?" of the affair, and in gaining that self-understanding, communicate to you both why it happened, and how they will change their behavior in ways that you can verify and that will prevent them from having another.

Of course, these two paths are not mutually exclusive. I view them as complementary, and think “Surviving an Affair”, by Harley is extremely helpful in figuring out important parts of the why, at least as far as the answer involves unmet Emotional Needs, and it almost always does, especially for a woman who has an affair.

The fallacy is the belief that unmet EN’s “cause” affairs. If that was the case, I would have had the affair, not my wife, because my EN’s were less well met in our marriage than hers.

Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is a so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and according to him, in about 40% of MEN'S affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionnaire. 2.) Meet your spouse’s EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 40%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken particularly the chapter on "The Double Life Man". Though the percentage of women who have this type of affair is small, it is not zero. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ December 09, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

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I had another one of those "up all night" nights last night. I just couldn't stop thinking so I decided I would try reading instead. Well, that didn't help, everything was ok right up until I got to the chapter on "Sex and Safety"...this woman just scared me out of my mind and got me thinking even more. One minute I was trying to read to get my mind away from everything and who knows, maybe even surprise my husband with something I had learned...the next I swear I could have killed him! I can't see how he can say he loves me and yet he didn't care about all the STD's that are out there and the fact that I would be affected by his actions...ahh!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I started crying like crazy and I just couldn't stop, he eventually noticed that I was crying and asked me why, when I told him he got up and went to bed. This morning he got up as if nothing had happened, didn't say a single word.

How am I supposed to interpret this? I guess he just doesn't want to talk about anything related to his A, I think he is getting tired of my depressed mood.

Before all this happened I asked him again last night to give me the passcode for his cell phone and again he refused he says he should be entitled to some privacy.

I just need to be patient I guess only time will tell.

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((Feeling))

I am in no way an expert, but want to comment on your "up all night" statement. I have had many bouts of exactly what you are talking about. I have had to go to the doctor to get a prescription to help me sleep for the time being.
You may want to consider it. It has been a godsend for me. I find my emotions are much less scattered after I have had a good night's sleep. The prescription also helps me to avoid the urge I have had for nightly relationship talks as I have been able to clear my mind and fall asleep instead of obcessing all night long.
My husband will also ask me what is wrong and then leave the room if I say something he doesn't want to hear. Maybe others can comment, but I always feel as though it is his method of controlling the conversation. He feels as though we should just "get on and get over it". I am sure you know this does not give what we women need- some sort of closure.
I don't have any suggestions other than the one I offered above. I also think you should let him know that you feel hurt but try not to pursue him right now with relationship talks.

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I know that I often had nothing to say when my wife would ask the "How could you?" type questions. Is there any safe way to answer a question like that? What do want him to say?

He doesn't know what you need to hear right now. Be very explicit and direct. Say things like "I need to hear you tell me you're sorry you did this."

Some of the other common questions all have the same answers.

"How could you do this?" and "What were you thinking?" are simple - he wasn't thinking about you at all. It was all about him and what he wanted.

So he's thinking that the answer to these questions are so obvious that you're only asking them to rub his nose in what he's done. And we guy's really hate that. So we clam up and walk away.

Also, concerning SF:

The ONE thing a man wants more than anything else in bed is an ENTHUSIASTIC partner that clearly enjoys SF with him. You don't have to be skilled, just really "into it."

I detested even kama sutra SF if I thought my wife was just going through the motions. Heck, she could just as well have been peeling potatoes or brushing her teeth. She even mentioned that the ceilings needed painting during one SF session. We take SF rejection very personally because we think it means that we can't please you.

My OW was far less skilled than my wife, but she made me believe she DESIRED me in ways my wife didn't. Do you know how good it feels to be the object of someone's desire and lust? She never made me feel inadequate and I left her bed feeling like I was ready to conquer Mt. Everest.
It was intoxicating to say the least.

JMHO, Low

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

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LO

Sorry to interrupt this thread.

Sorry to hear about your situation, but you really hit the nail on the head about SF for me. Can we put that on a billboard somewhere that "Enthusiasm and being made to believe that we are the object of Ws love and lust is the key."

My WW was unenthusiastic too, just putting in her time "servicing me" (as she put it). I never got a comment about the paint, but you're right about the potatoe peeling and toothbrushing. My solution to trying to get my SF was through online porn. It was a terrible mistake, sin, and is probably the single greatest cause for WW's A. But with all the talking about my lack of SF even as newlyweds grew too frustrating. I didn't know how to draw her in and make her want to have sex even though she would orgasm (I believe) during each encounter. Also, I didn't want to force sex on her, so porn seemed like a solution. I was so miserably wrong. I have since come to new discipline under God and removed the connection between computer and phone jack but the damage has been done.

Best of luck to you.

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Thank you sooo much for your comments.

I was trying to avoid, or I guess I am in denial that I may need anti-D's to cope with all this but I guess you can't all be wrong...I will make an appointment with my Dr. and get some meds. Hopefully they will work, I don't think I can keep this up much longer...I haven't been able to do anything at work since I found out.

wittlewifeypoo, LowOrbit
- thanks for you thoughts, I think you are absolutely right about what you are saying...my trying to have 'relationship talks' right now just makes him feel like I am just rubbing on his nose everything he has done. But again, all I want from him is just what you said LW, I want him to tell how sorry he is about he is done...he just doesn't get it!!.

We went out yesterday to do some Christmas shopping and I flunked again...he was trying to be funny and pleasing and just have a good time with me and all I could do was think about the many times he must have spent laughing and having a great time with the OW while I was home thinking my husband was playing tennis or working late...I just got so enfuriated...he noticed of course and told me that he understood that it was still too soon but that he sure hoped that I could let go and move on because he certainly wasn't going to wait for ever.

When we got home he said he wanted to think very carefully about what I want to do with our relationship...he says he is afraid that I know that I will never be able to move past this but just don't want to tell him. What do you think?
I am certainly very confused, and I know it's going to take time for me to forget everything that has happened but hopefully I will be able to do it...I just don't think I can do it in 1 week!.

LowOrbit, thanks for you advice on SF. I think I get your point and trust me when I say when I am into it, I am into it...I guess it's just not as often as he would like it to be. Not be mention the times when we were together just becuase I didn't want to say no because I felt it was my "duty"...that probably didn't help since like you said, I didn't do anything to make him feel like he was desired. I will work on that too...
but with the recent events that is going to take sometime for me to feel like it's only the two of us that involved the SF relationship...right now whenever we are together there are three people in my mind, not two. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> he says he should be entitled to some privacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. He's lost that privilege.

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Get those meds quickly. I'm on Paxil, and it worked after a couple of days with no side effects. They don't make you happy, but you can do the things you need to - like work. Give yourself a break, you can't "get over" this so quickly. When H makes comments tell him "Sweetie, I believe in our marriage and am working on changes to make it better." I won't even comment on the SF issue - I've often thought about painting the ceiling, made lists of what to do next (clean the bathroom, wax the floor).

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Well, I am back...as you can see the meds aren't helping. Today was another terrible day...crying all day. I still think this is all a nightmare and at some point I am going to wake up and everything is going to be ok.

We decided we will sleep in separate rooms at least until my rollercoaster feelings calm down a little just so we don't get even more confused.
He is snoring...I can't sleep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am starting to realize that I have serious problems with all this...I don't think I'll be able to put this behind...it's just too much for me to handle all by myself. He is already getting tired...I think this is going to go down hill pretty fast. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

He took his cell phone into the bedroom (what for?...he is supposed to be sleeping). Tomorrow morning is dreaded tennis morning, I am thinking about following him and finding out by myself if he is still seeing the other woman (even though he swears he will never do it again). I am desperate, I wish I could trust him...I just can't and quite honestly I am starting to think I never will.

Is this nuts? Am i crazy or have any of you gone through thought processes like these? Help!!

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Well, many of us have gone through the same thing. You are absolutely normal. My main reaction was not being able to believe it for the first couple of months. My H kept coming back and telling me OW was out of the picture, but NC never lasted more than a day. Give it some time and stay on Plan A. It is awful to go through, but things will get better. That is why you are here - to work on yourself to get a better marriage.


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