Cerri,
I am posting here to ask for your input. I am at a tough crossroads feeling unable to get "unstuck."
Briefly, I am a 44 yo BS. DDay was 12/29/01-yes that's right. My story is fairly typical- A was with 28 yo coworker...We are both working full time and have young children. We were definitely not meeting each others ENs.
Was in shock for 6 months-the usual gamut of emotions. I read everything I could get my hands on. We entered MC in 2/02 but he wasn't invested in participating. Told me he was moving out in 5/02, changed his mind, then moved out in 7/02.
My salvation came when I joined MB in 7/02.
I spoke with Steve H. in 8/02 and he recommended 6 months of Plan A, which I feel I did very well. My WH remained cold, angry, and distant.
In 3/03, I didn't send a Plan B letter, but "went dark." I had limited contact with him.
In 5/03, there were clearly noticeable changes in his behavior- he bought me birthday gifts and began seeking out my company.
In June, he told me "he couldn't go on living like this." I thought he meant he wanted a D- but he broke down in tears and said he wanted to start working on the M.
He said he ended the A in 2/03, but they were "still friends." He had read HN/HN, so I gave him a copy of SAA and said he needed to write a NC letter.
Since then, he has started IC, but remains stuck. He says he is not attacted to me and never was. His head tells him that we should be together, but his heart isn't there yet.
During our most recent talk this week, he seemed more distant and again focused on his need for SF and an attractive spouse, but doesn't think I can meet those needs. He thinks we can have a M "without the trappings." I said that I wanted a "total package." I still think the OW is influencing him.
He says his contact with the OW is only on her initiation, but I know that even recently they were sending numerous text messages to each other on a daily basis. He says he's "definitely over her" and is only trying to help her get to a "better place".
Cerri, thru MB, I've made tremendous personal progress. I've really worked hard on working on me-and many of those around me have noticed those changes- but not WH. We've talked about my needs, but he's mostly been providing domestic support and family support/childcare. He has not tried to meet any of my top EN.
My questions are: Is there any point to a Plan B letter? Is it too late? Does it work if he knows what the purpose is? I'm afraid that my love bank is nearly empty- yet I am unable to walk away.
I really appreciate you taking the time to read this and for all of the wonderful advice you've given on these boards.

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: pb511 ]</small>

pb511,

It's unlikely cerri will be on until tommorow, so please bump this up so that she can see it and offer some assistance. I know you're hurting and because I'm here....I wanted to offer you a little advice and hope as well...because I think your situation is actually better than you think. I mentor couples for cerri's site, and I am seeing some positive things about your story....so I wanted to help you sleep a little better tonight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since then, he has started IC, but remains stuck. He says he is not attacted to me and never was.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure you've heard this before...but I want to say it again. This sounds awful, but it isn't true. It's one of the typical things that many WS say. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard it. Think back. You two were in love enough to get married...it is the affair that is coloring his view of you now. You cannot believe the words of a fogged up spouse, or it will make you crazy and unhappy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His head tells him that we should be together, but his heart isn't there yet.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not....because he hasn't ended the affair. His emotions are all tied up with the addiction of the affair. Just like you can't believe what he says about you....you also cannot believe what he says about her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During our most recent talk this week, he seemed more distant and again focused on his need for SF and an attractive spouse, but doesn't think I can meet those needs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has he discussed what his concerns are in this regard? Has your appearance changed alot in the last few years?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He thinks we can have a M "without the trappings." I said that I wanted a "total package." I still think the OW is influencing him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says his contact with the OW is only on her initiation, but I know that even recently they were sending numerous text messages to each other on a daily basis. He says he's "definitely over her" and is only trying to help her get to a "better place". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly....this is why your recovery has no chance of rebuilding your marriage. You did a plan B without doing a plan B. No letter, no conditions, no honesty and openess, no extra ordinary precautions for avoiding the lover. Even so....the plan worked....it worked to get him thinking about you...but it FAILED because it wasn't executed the way it must be followed to ensure that the conditions that made the marriage vulnerable no longer exist...mainly...the affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, thru MB, I've made tremendous personal progress. I've really worked hard on working on me-and many of those around me have noticed those changes- but not WH. We've talked about my needs, but he's mostly been providing domestic support and family support/childcare. He has not tried to meet any of my top EN.
My questions are: Is there any point to a Plan B lettr? Is it too late? Does it work if he knows what the purpose is? I'm afraid that my love bank is nearly empty- yet I am unable to walk away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes...the Plan B letter is essential. No it is not too late at all....the fact that he responded even to a quasi-Plan B shows that he is having doubts about leaving this marriage. It's not time to walk away. It's time to regroup. I'll let cerri take a look at this situation and decide where you should be....then I'll be glad to offer support. Plan B should always be done with the help of a counselor...how did you pick a counselor? Are you seeing this person too? IC's are not marriage counselors...and that will not be the focus of his counseling. When you went to Plan B....did SH ask you to write a NC letter? Or guide you through that plan? If not, that's probably why you took your husband back prematurely. Now you have back track. But it is not over by a long shot. I think there is every reason to believe this can be worked out. He came back on his own, is getting counseling...he is still in withdrawal...well...actually still in an active affair so do not expect to get needs met.

Hang on a little longer and don't lose hope. Did you expose the affair during Plan A? Who knows about it?

(((((((((((((pb))))))))))))))))

Bump this up in the morning....and I'll check back and see what cerri says. Good luck chere. This is better than it seems.

Star*fish,
Thanks for your words of comfort. So much of what you've said I've believed and know that he's still addicted.
I only have a little time this am, but regarding the appearance comments- I did put on weight after the kids. But since before Dday, I've been working out 3 days a week and have lost all of my "baby weight." I look terrific- my MIL told me I look like 7 million dollars when she saw me last month. (I felt funny saying that in my initial post, but it's something else he hasn't commented on.) But many others have. PS I don't look 44- most people think I am in my early 30's... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

(((( PB ))))

Hang on .... have hope.

I love your courage!

Pep

Pepper,
I'm not so sure it's courage. Sometimes I think it's just dumb persistence........

Star:
A few other thoughts. The C we are seeing is the same. He was our initial MC as well.
I really feel he has done anexcellent job, but isn't an MB type counselor. He has told me that there is nothing more he would like to see than our M succeed. I think sometimes I feel that my approach has been somewhat disjointed because of this. For example, I haven't explored a Plan B letter with my C because I'm not sure how he would react to that.

I highly suggest that you send Cerri an email with your situation, as she is busy and there is no telling when she will be able to get out here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am posting here to ask for your input. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And as a bonus, I'm going to give you Tak's input. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In 3/03, I didn't send a Plan B letter, but "went dark." I had limited contact with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Describe "went dark" and "limited contact", please.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said he ended the A in 2/03, but they were "still friends." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not good. The contact needs to end. No friendship, aquaintance or any other odd term used for continued contact. A boundary line has been crossed in his relationship with her, and he can never uncross that line.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He had read HN/HN, so I gave him a copy of SAA and said he needed to write a NC letter. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is unclear from your post whether or not he actually did write a NC letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since then, he has started IC, but remains stuck. He says he is not attacted to me and never was. His head tells him that we should be together, but his heart isn't there yet. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is typical, and I really don't see it getting better while he is still in contact with the OW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During our most recent talk this week, he seemed more distant and again focused on his need for SF and an attractive spouse, but doesn't think I can meet those needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did he say why he doesn't think that you can meet these needs?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He thinks we can have a M "without the trappings." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is another line I see many WS give the BS. It basically is means that he won't meet your ENs and will still contact the OW. JMHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still think the OW is influencing him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she is, and your marriage cannot fully recover while he is in contact with her. This isn't the kindest thing to say, and it probably will hurt, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the physical aspect of the affair isn't over, either. The emotional aspect certainly is not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says his contact with the OW is only on her initiation, but I know that even recently they were sending numerous text messages to each other on a daily basis. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who cares who initiates the contact? Is that supposed to in some way make the contact better or the affair more palatable?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says he's "definitely over her" and is only trying to help her get to a "better place". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is not his job nor his place to help her anywhere. Too much concern over her well-being is the problem, anyway. He is not over her, or he wouldn't feel the need to contact her so often, nor would he feel the need to help her anywhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My questions are: Is there any point to a Plan B lettr? Is it too late? Does it work if he knows what the purpose is? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes there is a point to a Plan B letter. No, it is not too late. Yes, it can still work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm afraid that my love bank is nearly empty- yet I am unable to walk away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't doubt that your love bank is pretty dry. How empty are we talking here?

I think you should wait until Cerri comments (and I have reason to think that she will) before doing anything, but here is my take:

1.) Expose the affair
2.) Make another attempt to negotiate the end to the affair and no contact with OW (WITH ACCOUNTABILITY)
3.) If this is unsuccessful, you need to go to Plan B.

Sorry that you are in this situation.

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Dear Tak,
I am grateful for your input. Sometimes I feel like I'm trudging along in the darkness and you MBers shed rays of light thru to touch my heart.

In response to your comments-
Brcause of the small kids and because of logistics, I didn't do a true Plan B- meaning no contact at all.There was no letter. I do regret that I didn't do that then. I saw how well it worked for mimi1254.

What I did do was keep my contact with him to the minimal amount of time. I didn't answer the phone when he called the kids (isn't caller id great?) and I was as brief as possible at the childcare exchange. It is tough with kids ("aren't you going to go outside to say hi to daddy?")as you know.

I guess my love bank isn't totally dry, otherwise I wouldn't be here trying to gather support and advice. My major dilemma is how I execute the ending of the affair and no contact. It seems so close and yet so far.

I did take the advice of several of you and emailed Cerri to set up a talk.

I had been hoping that I would find a simple easy answer but now realize I'm still fighting a war.
Thanks again to all. I really do appreciate the opportunity to vent and receive such great support, hugs, and insight.

PS. Can anyone tell me any easy way to add quotes? I've never been able to figure out how to do it!

PS. Can anyone tell me any easy way to add quotes? I've never been able to figure out how to do it!

You go to the post you want to quote .... and instead of hitting the "reply" button, you click on the quotation marks .... here's where they are .... look for the sunglasses (looks up a poster's profile) , next to that is the paper and pencil (lets you edit your own post only) .... and next to that you will see the quotation marks.... once you click that, you'll have a reply screen, and you can delete the quotes you want to ignore and only use the ones you want to respond to (like I did here)

Pep

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepperband:
[QB]
[b]You go to the post you want to quote .... and instead of hitting the "reply" button, you click on the quotation marks ....

Hey, it worked! Thanks a bunch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am grateful for your input. Sometimes I feel like I'm trudging along in the darkness and you MBers shed rays of light thru to touch my heart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are very welcome. It doesn't seem like so very long ago that I felt the same way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I did do was keep my contact with him to the minimal amount of time. I didn't answer the phone when he called the kids (isn't caller id great?) and I was as brief as possible at the childcare exchange. It is tough with kids ("aren't you going to go outside to say hi to daddy?")as you know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a pretty decent Plan B...except for the lack of letter. The letter is what spells out the boundaries and what conditions need to be met to end Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess my love bank isn't totally dry, otherwise I wouldn't be here trying to gather support and advice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's true, however, I'm trying to ascertain how dry you mean. That is important information needed to determine what you need to do next.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My major dilemma is how I execute the ending of the affair and no contact. It seems so close and yet so far. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who have you exposed the affair to? What steps did you take as a part of Plan A?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did take the advice of several of you and emailed Cerri to set up a talk.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good. Let us know what she says. She may advise you to avoid the boards when talking about your situation. If she does that, you have my email addy (so does Cerri).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had been hoping that I would find a simple easy answer but now realize I'm still fighting a war.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Simple and easy answers are few and far between here. MB is a path. Once you get on it and get into recovery, you still continue to walk along it and learn.