POGP,<BR>Hmm. I'm not saying anything different than what Harley has said. That everyone is vulnerable to an affair. I don't call that statement as "flaming", just a caution to those who believe they are "above" cheating. This board is full of people who thought they were not capable of such things. Without pulling out individual quotes from each person's post, I can only say that the overall "flavor" of this thread, in only my opinion, was that of a condescending nature. Even you're reply to my post struck me as condescending. "I'd never cheat on my spouse" while at the same time talking about how screwed up/insecure/messed up your spouse is.

I found the info. on 5 types of infidelity (and who does them) very enlightening. You can find them at: <A HREF="http://www.affairs-help.com" TARGET=_blank>www.affairs-help.com</A> <P>Experts say anyone is at risk for an affair, given the "right" (or wrong) conditions.

No offense TheStudent, but when somebody asks if there is some rhyme or reason to why our spouses cheated, we're going to try to give an answer. The person who started this thread asked specifically what aspect of a person makes them vulnerable to cheating. No different than if they asked what part of ourselves contributed to the downfall of the marriage. Some people desperately need answers, and if they can't get them from their spouses, this place is the next best thing.<P>This wasn't a discussion on who is better than whom, we're just trying to fit together the pieces of a puzzle. And if it helps one person understand why they were betrayed, then I'll be the first to chime in. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR>

The question was posed as a "personality type", not as a behavior issue. Big difference. A "personality type" might lead to a conclusion that only certain people are vulnerable to affairs, i.e. those who are unfortunate enough to have a certain "personality type". I see this as an attempt to further categorize and stigmatize, not understand. Can anyone here honestly say they've never done ANYTHING that is self-destructive? Smoking, drinking, cursing, whatever? Look inside yourself for the answer.<P>Supposedly over 50% of all married people will commit adultery sometime in their marriage. I find it hard to believe that all of those people have the same "personality type".

Yes, everyone is vulnerable, and yes there is the potential for an affair for anyone.<P>When I was younger (18-19) I had major probs with the whole self-esteem issue. I also used other's low SE to manipulate them. I did not like myself very much, and therefore allowed myself to to do these things and to be involved in relationships, romantic or otherwise that were not appropriate (ie. married women ect.)<P>Since then I have resolved many of the issues that I had then. I'm not saying that I am not capable of having an afair, I know that I could given the right environment , anyone could.<P>I know that I won't because I will not allow myself to be put in the situations that propigate an affair. Affairs don't just happen they are allowed to happen.<P>An individual with self-esteem issues is more often than not, incapable of seeing that. They do not go out looking for an EMA, it finds them.<P>Speaking from the position of someone who used to be the OM. A married woman who is having some problems with her marriage, and that has some self-esteem issues is easy prey. <P>Sorry to be so blunt but that is the way many<BR>men view things.<P>And a man with similar issues is just as vulnerable as a woman, it is an equal opportunity problem<P><BR>Back to the point...<P>Yes everyone is capable, and no one is above an EMA, but low self esteem makes it more likely that the EMA will occur if there are marital problems on top of that.<P><BR>Jason<P>(sorry is I ofended anyone)

Oh, what a relief it has been to read all these posts! I never realized until after his EMR how insecure my H was. He was the classic "guy in control", but his need for approval was astronomical. He also then revealed (for the first time to anyone) that he had been molested by a family member as a child. Opening up to me about all this has made a world of difference in our marriage. I just wish I had known earlier.

Hi Khyra,<P>Never posted to you before, but I've followed your story here. I'm one of the "old-timers" along with my wife Suse.<P>It takes a lotta guts and maturity to begin to accept that we all can make mistakes, none of us are perfect. The irony of it all is that I believe we can't fully begin to enjoy life until we accept our own shortcomings. <P>Laugh at yourself and your own stupidity. It's much more becoming! LOL.<P>You and your H are making a hell of a lot more progress than "dumb and dumber" folks like myself and Suse.<P>Keep up the good work. It's a looooong process. Don't get discouraged.

I truly believe you premise is on the money.<P>The reason people use drugs is to cover up or to ease the pain of living.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

TheStudent,<P>Fortunately, self-esteem isn't a personality issue. Personalities can't change, your confidence level can. (the bulk of answers pertained to low self-esteem)<P>I'd also like to know what's wrong with finding similarities within the betrayers? We're not saying these things don't exist outside the confounds of infidelity. We're just trying to understand our spouses reasoning better. <P>I, for one, have never said I wasn't susceptible to an affair. Nor could I ever speak for the future. I can say that the likelihood of it occurring is pretty slim, but never impossible.<P>Discussing this issue is no different than discussing a group of people who do something else that hurts others. Whether it be something more despicable like rape, or something more benign like being the school "bully."<P>The fact remains that there are many facets to all of us. And it can't be ignored that some people are more apt to do something than others. It's what makes the world go around. <P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR>

TheStudent,<BR>You wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Supposedly over 50% of all married people will commit adultery sometime in their<BR>marriage. I find it hard to believe that all of those people have the same "personality<BR>type". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't find it at all hard to believe that over 50% of people have low self-esteem. <P>

I can see that this subject, for some has touched on some very sensitive nerves.<P>Everyone, take a deep breath - calm down...<P>I can see where The Student is coming from - I understand his anger and upset. Although, I don't feel it was expressed in the most appropriate way. No one was attacking anyone here. We are ALL in the same boat, no matter if we were on the giving or the recieveing end of the pain. No matter which shoes you're wearing, if you're trying to get better now, you are in some pain.<P>I can palpate large masses of pent up anger and frustration here - I have caught myself beginning to bristle when I read some things written, even tho hopefully, the person didn't mean anything as derogatory as I initially thought when I read it.<P>Anyway, my point is, if you're feeling attacked, stop a minute and think - impulse is what got us in trouble to begin with (or have you already forgotten that?) Figure out what exactly irritates you about these statements - maybe they hit upon some truth? Perhaps you just had an arguement with your spouse that kind of helped the anger along this path. Maybe it's not this subject in particular, but a general attitude you notice in general amongst certain membebers of this group. Address them, not everyone. Furthermore, I'd make it a separate post. I'll bet you get a lot more receptive responses at that rate.<P>I personally am guilty of going off on tangents and getting REALLY angry on here. (Right, Unseen2?) That's how I can spout off about what works and what doesn't as far as getting a point across that may not be taken too well. I learned it and earned it!<P>OK, I feel better now. <P>Khyra <P>

Thanks, TheStudent, for saying what I also thought.<P>I can appreciate that a betrayed who has just been blindsided by revelation, would want to find SOMETHING that might help explain WHY, WHY, WHY? But the question as asked IS condescending, even if unintentional, because it assumes there must be some common personality flaw that betrayers have, but betrayeds are immune to.<P>Suppose THESE were the questions: "Are there some people that are more likely to have spouses who engage in EMAs? Are some personality types at greater risk for having their spouses cheat on them?"<P>These are equally valid questions. Yet they insinuate a possible personality flaw on the part of the betrayeds, which makes their spouses more prone to an affair.<P>If you find that insinuation irritating, then you should understand why the original premise might also be irritating. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited December 23, 1999).]

Until now I've trying to find the root of our marital problems in our last 10 years when the problem probably lies way before.<P>My wife doesn't remember her father and the stepfather she grew up with abused her physically when she was an adolescent; this is the biggest issue for her and that she thinks her mother knew but did nothing to stop it. She had her first sexual experience when on vacations at age 15 with a guy 7 years her senior so she could be "ready" for her boyfriend, later she had other sexual experiences before moving to NYC. <P>In the city she experienced with drugs and after a serial of boyfriends she moved in with a woman with whom she literally shared her life for 3 years; my W qualifies this relationship as being "very intense" but one that she had to stop because was causing her too much pain —this other woman was in drugs and a total mess. My W moved to Mexico and we met & fell in love 10 months after that. She never seems to be satisfied with anything, i.e. regarding money all she remembers of our almost 16 years together (14 ½ married) are the bad times; when she works she envies other women who don't have to but when she is not working feels uneasy because I pay for everything; she also feels uneasy when I compliment her but then longs for attention when I don't. A few months ago she went into a deep depression and I couldn't understand the illness and basically wasn't there for her; we grew apart more every day; we discussed at the office (we are partners), at home, we even yelled at each other sometimes, but then in public we were always "the happy & perfect couple & a great family". Etc, etc, etc.<P>She is insecure but I didn't know it, she was depressed & I didn't know what to do, she felt lonely & I was next to her but not really, and she was evasive & distracted, forgetting things, being unorganized (unlike her), watching too much TV and playing lots of Free Cell on the PC, she was also on antidepressants and eating chocolate all day long. She found a lover, stopped eating chocolate and taking pills, she rarely watches TV and is almost back to normal in her organization. Still evasive and now she lies as easily as saying "hello" (before she couldn't).<P>The signals are there for whoever wants to see them but we are usually blind, trying to be "nice" and wondering what is going on, trying to do the same things and using the same arguments to cheer the spouse up, but to no avail.<P>And then timing, when you grow apart from you spouse you too become depressed, and sometimes is only time what separates the betrayer from the betrayed. I rejected many opportunities to be unfaithful in the last 15 years —in one particular occasion I was already in bed with a potential OW but reacted on time and left—. This time I was ready to do it, but she went ahead first. If I had done it probably she would be posting tonight and I would be out, exactly the opposite of what is happening as I type this.<P>Is it a personality trait, circumstances, lack of attention, not enough care?<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn

Excuse me if I'm being naive here. But, what is wrong with asking a question to the forum that you would like an answer to? Bongo asked an honest question, in the hopes of receiving honest answers. How does someone ever learn the answers without first asking the questions? I just don't get it.<P>He didn't insinuate that "personality type" was the definitive cause of infidelity. He merely <B>asked</B> if it was that <B>OR</B> if it was because of someone's needs not being met. <P>My beef was with the fact that TheStudent was getting down on us for answering his question. All the respondents, and correct me if I'm wrong, answered more along the lines of their spouse's lack of self-esteem. Nobody was discussing what type of personality their spouse had.(i.e. whether they were type A or type B, etc.) That goes more along the lines of the other part of the question.....Lack of needs being met.<P>Since when did saying another lacks self-esteem indicate their superiority over this person. We ALL, and I don't care who you are, lack self-esteem in some capacity or another. It just so happens that, either by coincidence or reality, that most of our spouses self-esteem fell below what some may consider the "norm." And I surely don't claim to possess an enormous amount of confidence myself, either. Nor would I ever be ignorant enough to believe I'm superior to another.<P>Oh yeah, one last thing. I stated in my first response that if we could all understand that everyone needs love, affection, admiration, etc., then there would be a lot more understanding and a lot less anger in this world. Seems to me I was trying to promote understanding, not "stigmatize" or "condescend." I merely stated the facts in MY case, and tried to answer Bongo's question to the best of my ability. <P>Just my two cents.<BR><P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR>

Doug,<BR>You asked:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are there some people that are more likely to have spouses who engage in EMAs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Such a question doesn't irritate me. The answer in my case is probably yes. I think people who are attracted to others who are shy and sensitive are somewhat more likely to marry someone who has low self-esteem, and are consequently more likely to end up with spouses who have affairs - particularly of the "in-love" sort, as opposed to serial one night stands. I think it is two sides of the same coin - people who are sensitive are more prone to having their self-esteem damaged, whether by job failure, parents, or their loved ones'intentional or unintentional slights. I would worry about this issue if I were ever to get involved in another relationship because I know that that I would probably end up with someone sensitive and not over-confident - it is not just chance that I like Al Borland a whole lot better than Tim Allen on Home Improvement.

Some interesting facts about self-esteem from <A HREF="http://www.self-esteem-nase.org" TARGET=_blank>www.self-esteem-nase.org</A> (WARNING- LONG!)<P>This article basically validates what everyone here has been saying. Self-esteem is NOT a personality type, it is a result of a serious of conscious, continual behaviors, is the responsibility of each of us, is a result of many factors, & cannot be determined by 'significant others'. If the betrayer has a self-esteem issue, it is not the 'fault' of the betrayed for not meeing significant emotional needs. <P>MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT SELF-ESTEEM<BR> <BR>Self-esteem is an experience. It is a particular way of experiencing the self. It is a good deal than a mere feeling. It involves emotional, evaluative, and cognitive<BR>components. It also entails certain action dispositions: to move toward life rather<BR>than away from it; to move toward consciousness rather than away from it; to treat facts with respect rather than denial; to operate self-responsibly rather than the<BR>oppposite. <P>Self-esteem is not the euphoria of buoyancy that may be temporarily induced by a drug, a compliment, or a love affair. It is not an illusion or hallucination. Lots of things (some of them quite dubious) can make us "feel good" - for a while. If self-esteem is not grounded in reality if it is not built over time through the appropriate operation of mind for example, through operating consciously, self-responsible, and with integrity-it is not self-esteem. <P>Can anyone develop high self-esteem or is it the prerogative of a fortunate minority? Sometimes, where there are deep psychic wounds and traumas left unresolved since childhood, a decent level of self-esteem can be very difficult to achieve. In such cases,<BR>psychotherapy may be necessary. <P>But I have never met anyone utterly devoid of self-esteem and I have never met anyone unable to grow in self-esteem, assuming appropriate opportunities for learning exist in their worldspace. <P>It is no more possible to have too much self-esteem than it is to have too much<BR>physical or mental health. But sometimes when people lack adequate self-esteem they fall into arrogance, boasting, and grandiosity as a defense mechanism-a compensatory strategy. Their problem is not that they have too big an ego but they have too small a one. <BR> <BR>The truth is, many factors influence our<BR>self-esteem. Certainly parental upbringing is important; parents can make the road to self-esteem easier or harder-but they cannot determine the ultimate level of their child's self-esteem. Neither can teachers or other adults. Neither can biology--nor birth experiences. Yet all these factors can play a role. And among these factors, none is likely to be as important as the influence of parents, primarily through the values they instill, which can lead a child toward or away from growing self-esteem. <P>However, we must remember the role that each individual plays, through the choices and decisions we make every day. We are not merely clay on which external forces write. We are active contestants in the drama. As adults we carry primary responsibility for the level of self-esteem we develop. <P>Isn't self-esteem the consequence of approval from "significant others?" No. If we live semi-consciously, non-responsibly, and without integrity, it will not matter who loves us -we will not love ourselves. When people betray their mind and judgment ("sell their souls") to win the approval of their "significant others," they may win that approval, but their self-esteem suffers.<P>Think of self-esteem as the immune system of consciousness. If you have a healthy immune system, you might become ill, but you are less likely to; if you do become ill, you will likely recover faster--your resilience is greater. Similarly, if you have high self-esteem, you might still know times of emotional suffering, but less often and with a faster recovery--your resilience is greater.<P>Once you've attained self-esteem, is it automatically maintained forever? Every value pertaining to life requires action to maintain it. If we do not continue to breathe, the breathing we did yesterday will not keep us alive today. The same principle applies to self-esteem and the practices that support it. <BR> <BR>If we do not choose to sustain these practices--if we elect to operate mindlessly,<BR>irresponsibly, without integrity--there is no way for self-esteem to avoid being adversely affected. Neither a business, nor a marriage, nor a soul can be kept alive and healthy without continuous effort. <P>Responsibility for appropriate action never ends.

Ugh. I can now add to the list of possible motivators for "betrayers":<P>d) impulsive<P>I suppose my opinions are only taken seriously when I'm in the mood to flagellate myself (see Lonestar...what is on my mind-- for lots of self-flogging betrayer talk). Everything else I write must be motivated by guilt, justification, inability to deal with consequences, low self-esteem, and now impulsiveness. <P>Doug, thanks for sticking up for my opinion. <P>Yes, I understand why people want answers to their spouse's behavior. It would be so nice and easy if it fit into some convenient package or label, i.e. low self-esteem, personality flaw, etc, etc.

Boy, did I open the proverbial Pandora's Box! Lots of really good posts. I totally understand the folks frustrated that others could suggest that personality factors or mental illness maybe play a major role in determining whether or not someone might have an affair. My wife would totally agree with you and she would say that I'm trying to make excuses for a black and white issue. She would say there's only one answer to this problem. You give in to it, or you don't! 1+1=2! It's funny because my wife and I were at the therapist yesterday and at one point he said, "you guys just have to face it, You're not on the same page." What he means by that is that I am bi-polar, I'm constantly over analyzing everything, I have crazy mood swings, and given what mood I'm in a react accordingly. My wife, on the other hand, is completely totally dependable. A math teacher, a loving mother, and very level headed. We look at any and everything completely different! My point being; all of us have a certain genetic code. Mine happens to be a long line of bi-polar artistic temperaments. Throw in an absent father, a bi-polar mother, lots of self-doubt, real needs for affirmation and you've got me! I'm not saying that it makes it ok for me to have an affair but I am saying that I have the type of personality and mental illness were I need to always be on guard and these things make me so vulnerable for affairs. My wife can go out with her friends to bars and dance and it's ok. I, on the other hand, never need to be in alone with a woman that I find attractive. From here on out I've made the commitment to flee from danger and do all that I can to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again. For me, there's no doubt that my affair had nothing to do with my wife and all do with a desperate attempt to put bandages on the wounds of childhood. (I know that sounds overly dramatic!) Let me say again, I am responsible for what I've done and my family and I suffer from the after shocks everyday. But hopefully, by God's grace, we'll see something positive come from this.