Since the XOW is raising my H's child, we will never be "rid of" her in the way others who heal can be. It has been over, over one year, and I still find myself thinking OFTEN about this woman, mainly practicing lectures to her that never get sent. Writing them down provides only temporary relief. Keep in mind this was a close "friend" of mine and my chilren's and much of my problem is the pain I feel in her betrayal without remorse. (My H and I are doing GREAT).<P>I twice tried explaining this to our counselor and his only advice was to practice avoidance of thinking about her, to the extent of wearing a rubber band on my wrist to hurt myself with pain-association. Is that far-out? I can't do it much. I've also been advised to pray for her, which I can only do sporadically as I feel so hateful toward her.<P>Do I need a new counselor, a spiritual advisor, or to go ahead and write her expressing my disappointment in her, to get it off my chest? (H is very leary of my starting a "war" with this woman. Not my intention, but what we might get from her.)<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited December 21, 1999).]

I have no idea Jenny.<P>If you figure it out let me know. I am still in the same boat as you and I didn't know her. Still don't. <P>The double betrayal would hurt tons. The child as well. I feel for you.<P>Keep trying the things you are. I am doing those too. <P>The rubber band thing seems far fetched to me. I mean she is already associated with emence pain. Wouldn't that just compound it? I think it would for me. <P>A spiritual advisor is I think my next step. I don't know what else to do.<P>I may have to write one of those letters and send them like Wasstubborn did. She has seemingly gotten closure from it. <P>If this woman had been a friend of mine I think I'd already would have had words with her. I think I'd send letter/letters too.<P>That is just my thoughts. I am not thinking too clearly these days so you may want to take this with a grain of salt.<P>Be praying for you.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<P>

Well Jenny, Getting over a grudge starts with forgiveness. Apparently you have forgiven your husband, but not your former friend. I'm not saying that you have to be friends with her again, but you must forgive her. Or you will always be tormented by the thought of her. This I'm sure will be very difficult and will probably take time. But think about it. You forgave your husband and I'm sure you expected more of him than you did of her. And finally, God is a forgiving God. And so should we? It's not easy, but I truly believe once you forgive her, you will release yourself from torment.<BR>Your in my prayers.

Jenny:<P>You're giving this woman too much power over you. Is'nt it horrible that she has the ability to sour your mood just by the thought of her? Perhaps you should pity her. After all, YOU won the real battle. H stayed with YOU.<P>I know this is easier said than done, but consciously try to think of something else when she flits into your mind. She's not worth the trouble you're wasting on her.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Jenny:<P>I don't think your situation is about winning or losing. It's probably about forgiving, learning to let go of the anger, and moving forward. There's some lyrics from a Don Henley song that reminded me of forgiveness:<P>...been trying to get down to the heart of the matter. But my will gets weak and my thoughts seem to scatter but I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness...even if, even if you don't love me anymore....<P>How true these words have been for me with my situation. At least your H chose to stay with you and your marriage.

Jenny,<BR>My H certainly didn't father a child with the XOW, but... she WAS my (so-called) "best friend." It's only been about 21 days since my last communication with her. (H cut all ties immediately). We had our "words" consisting of in-person, over the phone, and e-mail letters, and I'm not sure any of it helped much. Maybe it did. I'm not sure. It sure felt good writing what I did, and it felt good to know that she was hurt. That sounds petty perhaps, but I'm far from reaching resolve. So odd is that I, too, am merely a hair's length away from forgiving my H for the act itself, but my outrage, anger, and even obsession with OW haunts me DAILY!! Not ONE single day has gone by since this affair was disclosed, that I haven't conjured horrifying images in my head literally dozens of times per day. <P>Someone suggested it was out of protection, in conjunction with my H making an immediate "decision" and our mutually opening the communication channels fully, that have permitted the modicum of healing I've managed towards my H. But honest to God, I pray daily, and cry daily, and cling to my anger and resentment towards OW. In so much as she was my "best friend" I was doubley betrayed.<P>Everyone talks about "forgiveness" but I just don't see that on my horizon. I've acknowledged MY responsibility in not meeting my H's emotional needs, and we are actually doing pretty good. But God forgive me, I just cannot escape the rage towards that woman. Obsessed? Yes, very much so. It interferes with everything in my life. If you figure out steps towards the "NOT" obsessing bit, let me know,... The scariest part I have to fess up to, is that I'm not sure I even want to forgive her. I'm prepared for lectures telling me I'll "never heal" if I don't do that. But just like you, I can't get past that.

How do you forgive someone who shows no remorse? I always think it is stupid when I see in the media someone forgiving murders, for instance (like some at Columbine High), when the murders show no remorse... What can any of us learn from that? That what they do is okay? <P>I forgive my H because he IS full of remorse and making amends. We are actively healing our relationship!!!! As far as I can tell, the XOW will never do that... and still I have to put up with her presence.<P>Okay, so I need to let go(of her) for ME, for US, but... AAAAAAAAAAAAAgh.

Forgiveness isn't everything it's cracked up to be... You don't really <I>have</I> to forgive the other person, you know. Not forgiving can be a healthy move for a person, recognizing that somebody has done you a wrong that can never be undone or repaired. The key is forgiving <I>yourself.</I> <P>There are people I haven't forgiven for what they've done to me or to others. I likely never will. However, this lack of forgiveness doesn't hurt me at all, since I simply don't care about these other people - they are removed from my life, they hold no meaning for me. I have no hatred or bad feelings for those I haven't forgiven, but I've decided not to forgive and not to lower my morals/ethics/standards in order to subscribe to somebody else's idea of how to live life. I am comfortable with not forgiving and not forgetting...<P>Remove the meaning this XOW has for you. Forgive yourself for everything you berate yourself quietly for in the dead of night. It wasn't your fault - it was other people's fault. Understand that this person has no power over your life, your husband's life, or over your marriage. Yes, she has OC, but that is primarily her concern... Consider her merely a vessel through which OC was born. Ignore her as a person and think instead about her like some glitchy android taking care of your H's kid. Learn how to work the glitchy android; ignore its sporiadic breakdowns and fits, and concentrate yourself on what you want (if you want it) contact with OC. You don't have to care about OW at all, she doesn't have to have any power in your lives if you choose not to give it to her...<P>Ignore the counsellor who told you to hurt yourself. That's pretty sick advice, to hurt yourself when you feel pain or anger? What exactly is this counsellor attempting to have you associate with emotional distress? Hurting yourself? This is one <I>awful</I> counsellor IMHO and just as bad advice... <P>Ignore the OW's personality. Look at her as a thing. If you must have feeling, have pity - XOW lost her potential to be a true human being long ago, so perhaps allow yourself to feel sad that a human being managed to lose their humanity and become no better - morally speaking - than single-celled algae...<P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<P>

The O/W was also a "friend" of mine. I obsess daily as well and think often of writing or confronting. My anger overwhelms me. <BR>After 7 months of this though I finally believe that one has to forgive in order to reach some peace of mind. To forgive does not mean to condone what she did.From what I have read about anger management it is the only way to relieve yourself of anger. I, like the others have forgiven my husband and yes, he did show remorse. She did not to me although she did to another friend of mine. I'm wondering though if forgiveness should be a personal spiritual thing or one that is written and sent . Perhaps because I have only told God that I have forgiven I have yet to achieve peace. Must I tell her...to<BR>relieve some of the pain.

Jenny, I don't know where you are spiritually, and I would certainly understand any betrayed who has problems with trusting God to help in this messy situation, but I invite you to "Hop to" the Women's Bible Study forum (scroll down from Infidelity and click on Women's Bible study) you'll find us. We are actually doing a 'book study' using a fantastic paperback called "The Power of a Praying Wife".<P>I recently posted about 'Fixing our Mind, Capturing those Thoughts'. If you are a believer, you probably know the scripture reference, but have never had such an overpowering thought battle to deal with. <P>I know this process works for me, and I believe that it is part of the "salvation" that God intends for us -- salvation from the consequences of sin, even the sins of others that spill over into our lives.<P>Let me know if this helps you at all, it has freed me from compulsive, violent thoughts.<P>I hope that you can have a sweet, special Christmas, despite the events of the past. I am certainly planning to...by His Grace alone.<P>Liz/His Pearl of Great Price<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Jenny,<P>Wow, can I ever relate! On one hand, I have had words with the OW, and she also hasn't yet had the OC, on the other, I still obsess about the whole thing daily. It sucks! I hate thinking about it, yet I can't seem to stop right now. I liked Elixir's advice about forgiveness for yourself. I know that sometimes I berate myself for choosing the OW as my "best friend" and for trusting her and my H as much as I did. It makes me sick inside to think about. For a while I really thought that I had forgiven the OW, but now I'm not so sure. I don't think I could have so much negativity towards a person I've forgiven. I also find it hard to pity her. Pity what, that she's manipulative and will probably go on hurting other people throughout her life? I don't find that something to pity, I find that something to hate!<P>The thing I'm having such a problem with now is, who do I trust??? I truly thought she was a friend. If she could masquerade her feelings so well, who's to say the next "friend" I meet won't do the same. I don't worry about my H being unfaithful again. I think he's seen how much hurt this causes, and isn't about to do that to himself or his family again.<P>It sucks that this affair has made me re-think EVERYTHING that I do!<P>I feel for you, and will continue to pray for you.<BR> {{{{{{{{{Jenny}}}}}}}}}}

Jenny:<P>Forgiving someone who shows remorse is easy. Cake.<P>But forgiveness isn't about whether the offender shows remorse or not. It's about whether you can "forgive"---this means different things to different people. Look at this instance in your life: what good came of it??? You've become a better, stronger person. You have a better, stronger marriage. You probably have additional "good" that has come from this horrible situation.<P>When you realize that, you should be able to say "I forgive you...". All this does is release YOU from these emotional strings that she's been yanking you around with. You don't have to like her, you don't have to want to be in the same room as her. You don't (and shouldn't) want her to be your friend. But you can forgive her.<P>And when you do---you will benefit tremendously. It's what they mean when they say that "forgiveness is a gift you give yourself".<P>There are some recommended books on forgiveness---have you read them??? (Smeads???)

Jenny,<P>Don't obsess. Do forgive, in your own time, for your own health. This doesn't mean you can't be angry or need to forget. I suggest you read and reread a book called "Forgive and Forget" by Lewis B. Smedes. I'll include a short chapter here that I need to keep reading to help me cope with my own anger and forgiveness.<P>Chapter 14 – With Anger Left Over<P>Is there anger after forgiving?<BR> Yes, often. It can't be helped.<BR> Some people believe that they should not feel anger in their hearts once they forgive.<BR> I do not agree. I think that anger and forgiving can live together in the same heart. You are not a failure at forgiving just because you are still angry that a painful wrong was done to you.<BR> It is terribly unrealistic to expect a single act of forgiving to get rid of all angry feelings.<BR> Anger is the executive power of human decency. If you do not get angry and stay angry when a bad thing happens, you lose a piece of your humanity.<BR> Remember, you cannot erase the past, you can only heal the pain it has left behind.<BR> When you are wronged, that wrong becomes an indestructible reality of your life. When you forgive, you heal your hate for the person who created that reality. But you do not change the facts. And you do not undo all of their consequences. The dead stay dead; the wounded are often crippled still. The reality of evil and it damage to human beings is not magically undone and it can still make us very mad.<BR> A man does not forget that his father abused him as a child. A woman does not forget that her boss lied to her about her future in the company. You do not forget that a person you loved has taken cheap advantage of you and dropped you when the relationship was not paying off. I dare say that Jesus has not forgotten that a man named Judas betrayed him. And survivors of the holocaust do not forget the hell of that experience.<BR> And when you do remember what happened, how can you remember except in anger?<BR> Can you look back on the painful moment–or painful years– without a passionate, furious, aching longing that what hurt you so much had never happened? Some people probably can. But I don't think you should expect such placid escape from terrible memories. You can be angry still, and you can have your anger without hate.<BR> Once you start on your forgiving journey, you will begin to lose the passion of malice. Malice goes while anger lingers on. When forgiving begins its liberating work, the malice that once hissed like white flame from acetylene torch begins to fizzle out.<BR> A man slowly finds himself wishing his ex-wife well in her new marriage. A father is surprised at how desperately he wants his rebellious daughter to be happy. We wish a blessing on the frail humanity of the person who hurt us, even if we were hurt unfairly and deeply.<BR> What is happening? Malice is gradually fading, just as your head gradually stops pounding after you take three aspirin. You have anger without malice–a sign that your forgiving is real.<BR> Anger minus malice gives hope. Malice, unrelieved will gradually choke you. But anger can goad you to prevent the wrong from happening again. Malice keeps the pain alive and raw inside your feelings, anger pushes you with hope toward a better future.<BR> There are three things you can do to drain the poison of malice while you use the energy of anger. They may be worth trying.<BR> First, express your malice. Be specific, nail the object of your fury down. It doesn't help to throw it at people, either. But you need to express it to somebody who can help you get rid of it. You can express it secretly to God, or to someone who represents God to you.<BR> Then you can let God handle those people you would like to manhandle in your hate. If they need teaching, let God teach them. If they need rescuing from their own stupidity, let God rescue them. If they need saving from their own crazy wickedness, let God save them. What you need is healing from the infection of malice left over from the open wounds they left in your life.<BR> Finally, you can even try a prayer for the peace of the person you hate.<BR> If you do, you may discover another secret of forgiving; you don't have to choke your anger, you only have to surrender your malice. For your sake. Malice is misery that needs healing. Anger is energy that needs direction. After malice, let anger do its reforming work. Forgiving and anger can be partners in a good cause.<P><BR>Good luck with rebuilding your marriage.

Jenny, this sounds so much like me a couple of weeks ago when I met the anniversary of our troubled marriage date. I can even pinpoint the exact date he stopped thinking about me and thought only about her.<BR>I was struggling with this issue when 2 people helped me out, one a deacon's wife who innocently said to me, I can't forgive her and I quit praying to forgive her, now I pray for the power to understand why I want to forgive her. (think about it!) The other was my counselor who said I needed to figure out what was at the basis of my anger with OW. She had been my friend but I knew we couldn't possibly have a relationship after this. I also knew she had moved on in her life since she was pregnant with her H's twin boys and told my SIL how having had the affair showed not only her but my H as well how right the two of us (H & I) were to be together.<BR>I really spent some time on the anger thing and I came to a conclusion about ME~ I wasn't really angry with her but I was frightened and scared to let go of the anger I had with her because that was a sign I was letting go of the affair itself. I didnt want to let go because I wanted to continue to put my marriage in the center of my H's attentions and thought that if I had something more to bother me he wouldn't put this on the back burner. I know this sounds weird, right? But the thing is that I wasn't secure enough to let go of the anger and didn't wish to direct it to my H because he and I were really working things out. Now I am just curious about her. I honestly think I miss her friendship and really want to know how she's doing. It doesn't bother me anymore that my SIL is telling me things about her because I finally figured out that SIL wasn't telling my H these things and knew he didn't care about her anymore, but I think SIL knew that I still care about my friend, even if I don't realize it. Does this mean we get to be best buds again? Heck no! But I have let go of some of the pain and I AM rejoicing this Christmas with my h and no misdirected anger.<BR>I am not saying this is you but this was me.....I guess I'm kinda weird, right?<BR>God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

Chick's hit home with me,...with such a big thud, it would rival the most thunderous skies amidst off-scale hurricanes!! Yikes! The OW was my "best friend" as well, and I admit to having moments of missing her, too. But boy oh boy are they fleeting!! I now also question my trust with anyone I "befriend" into my life, with fears that I'll "do it again" by misplacing trust, that I'll be deceived, and I question my judgement, my interpretation of people and their goodness.... this is a scar I'm not yet sure how it heals.<P>I still obsess every single day, repeatedly throughout the day, and it takes SOOO much conscious effort on my part to NOT throw this back in H's face when I'm having a down wave. He's been PERFECT, and above all, so patient with me,... I know it's MY problem that I'm not only incapable of forgiving the OW, but frankly don't want to, and it isn't about condoning, I can make the differentiation. But that post hit me, cuz I don't think I realized PART of why I hang on is the fear in doing so, my H will not keep this transgression in the forefront of his mind...(as if somehow THAT will protect us?) I know that is wrong, and he doesn't deserve that,... WE deserve to "let go" together,...<P>I pray, daily,... mostly for peace. I give thanks that we've made it as far as we have, try to acknowledge my H's work (and he is doing SO well)... but the resentment, the anger, the rage, the hostility I harbor towards OW (esp since she was my supposed "best friend") haunts me. I'm so confused with this "forgiving" thing,...

WOW, thank you ALL for your thoughtful replies!!! It is too soon for me to know which "answer" will fit me best, but I saved them and am thinking about them. I really appreciate it.<P>chick, your thing about keeping it in the forefront is an interesting part of it. I know at times that has been my issue, too.<BR> <BR>And, ironically, having that total mistrust of people that Ophelia talks about keeps me from having new close friends that would replace that old nasty one, so there is an element of missing her... <P>And that counselor is probably nuts to tell me what he did.<P>I may order the Smedes book (thank you TLC)...<P>I will think on it all. Knowing that there are still decent people who care gives me hope for the world. I have lots of gratitude this year. Happy HOlidays <P>!!!!!!!!!WAIT, WAIT WAIT RIGHT THERE!!!! This is what I don't understand:<P>The OW SEEMED to BE "decent people who really cared". My H is a decent person who really cared (but was acting out a personal problem). SO, if decent people can cause that much pain... At least, I know one of them (H) is, and the other one seems like a loon, but could she be some variety of decent people acting out her problems (I'm sure she's acting out, but so was H)...?<BR>And is my judgement of people completely unreliable, or are we all unable to protect ourselves from betrayal? And are we all CAPABLE of this betrayal and self-dillution?? These I don't understand...<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited December 23, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Jenny (edited December 23, 1999).]