When is an A a sign of bad character in your spouse as opposed to just a sign that there is trouble in the marriage? I have read many other posts and I realize that others are dealing with much more hurtful situations than I am, and some are dealing w/ the 2nd or 3rd A. (!) I am starting to question why a BS would want to stay in the marriage if there isn't really a good justification for the A. Many people would say that staying after the A is a sign that you don't respect yourself. Also, I keep thinking of that phrase "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." - Are we just sending a message to our spouse that they can treat us poorly and eventually we will forgive them?

I have been reading about the reasons a person seeks out an A (unmet needs, etc), but I am beginning to wonder if my H's A is more a sign of bad character as opposed to a bad (or insufficient) marriage.

How do you know when your the straying spouse is simply not the kind of person that you should try to keep around and/or that they are prone to have A's no matter how well you fulfill their needs.

Let me give a little background: My H can be verbally abusive, puts me down in front of others and tells unflattering (and untrue) stories about me to his family and friends. My friends think the A is just another way to humiliate me and express his dominance/control. Also, if he is angry with me for any reason, he will do things to "punish" me that are very hurtful instead of discussing things. Before the A he was angry that I was doing well at my job when he wasn't - he wanted me to quit my job but still pay for my half of everything (how??) - this is when the A started.

Any thoughts? I still love my H, but I am beginning to wonder if I am just in a cycle of emotional abuse. (I was abused as a child, and so was he, and I thought that I had dealt w/ any lingering issues regarding the past.)

Thanks everyone!! I am really hurting and my mind is just spinning with the whole situation. I am reading Surviving an Affair and Divorce Remedy, as well as this board. Also, I have a counseling appointment set up for tomorrow morning w/ the Harleys.

To a certain extent, A's are ALWAYS a sign of character flaws. My needs were less well met in our marriage than my wife's were. Both of us were tempted to have an A. She had one, I didn't. My character flaws manifested themselves differently. My wife showed a committment to change. If she had not, I would be divorced. Plans A and B are what the Harley's consider ethical and often effective ways to prompt the necessary committment to change from the WS.

Our MC, Todd Mulliken, worked with Willard Harley for 8 years. He said in 40% of mens affairs, unmet needs had nothing to do with it. Yes, the wife was not meeting her H's needs 100%, because no one is perfect. In those cases, though, he felt that if the wife had been perfect the husband still would have had an affair. In his experience, in those cases it usually took a spiritual transformation to provoke a lasting change. Check out the chapter called "The Double Life Man" in his book "The State of Affairs".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do you know when your the straying spouse is simply not the kind of person that you should try to keep around and/or that they are prone to have A's no matter how well you fulfill their needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">History and gut feelings. Does your husband gawk at other women? Does he make inappropriate comments? Do you feel the A was out of character for him? Against his moral base? Does your gut feeling tell you that this is going to be a pattern? Or was it just a temporary error in judgement?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - Are we just sending a message to our spouse that they can treat us poorly and eventually we will forgive them?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes and No. If we choose to forgive them and they do not change their behavior, then they are not serious about repairing the relationship. If they are truly sorry, they will change their behavior.

My husband ridiculed me and made me feel terrible about myself. I could not stand to come home at night, I could hear him screaming at the kids the moment I came in the driveway. He would not talk to me, other that a few necessary questions, he never touched me, etc...I was very hopeless over the state of our marriage.

After the A, he told me he thought I didn't love him anymore, that he has always loved me. He said is was happy when he realized I loved him. He doesn't yell anymore, we are once again friends and he touches me and tells me he loves me. Does that mean I have no doubts, no. I do know that I will never and can never go back to the way it was. If he cheats on me again after everything he has seem me go through the last year. It could only be done out of pure hate.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any thoughts? I still love my H, but I am beginning to wonder if I am just in a cycle of emotional abuse. (I was abused as a child, and so was he, and I thought that I had dealt w/ any lingering issues regarding the past.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband was an abused child. He learned to bottle his emotions and never to expose them if there was the risk of being hurt. Anyone married over 20 years has been hurt. He shut me off emotionally, he would have walked out of our marriage without looking back because it was emotionally safe not to try and fight and maybe lose. You don't lose if you don't try, do you?

Whatever happened in his head, the actual moment of his walking out on his family changed him. He knew if he left he could not come back, he just could not open that door. He talked to the OW for a few more weeks over the phone until I found out. After that it was done, he was a different man. He realized that it was up to him to be a family, the pain of his childhood would only make him lose everything he has ever wanted.

Your husband can get over the abuses of childhood, if he choses. Have you read the book, I think it is called "A boy called it"? If that child can make it, anyone can.

Hmmm interesting that both you and your husband had abuse issues when younger.

I can tell you this many serial cheaters were abused as young adults...applies to both genders though more so to men.

I can also tell you that in many case an abused man will become a sexual predator. Its often due to two factors. One wanting to re-establish control lost to the abuse. Two because the abuse often creates a warped sense of sexuality that encourages them to punish others sexually.

I have some questions for you.

Have the two of you had intimacy problems in the past?

Was the woman he had an affair with either a very promicuous woman or very vunerable woman? By that was the affair not about thinking he loved the person he was involved with.

Has been sexually abusive or at least domineering sexually towards you?

Do feel controlled by him or dominated by him?

Do you still have sexual issues...for example do you get nervous or afraid in sexual situations with your husband?

I know that is alot of questions but I see two people both hurt in the same way sexually. That makes me wonder if you are both not attracted to each other because of that. Plus how can either of you help the other deal with their past abuse if both of you carry the same scars? Its possible if either of you have dealt honestly and completely with past abuse. But most people don't deal completely with past abuse until it causes other problems such as what is happening now in your marriage.

By the way there are plenty of reasons to stay with a straying partner unrelated to anything posted.

You share a common past. You have a history. You might have had an okay marriage despite or before the affair. At one time you both loved each other.

All of these are reasons that come from the heart not the wallet.

There are of course the practical reasons such as children, finances, lifestyle and so on.

But its important to keep in mind there are heartfelt reasons to stay as well.

Thank you for responding.

I will try to give more background about the abuse histories - our scars are VERY different. My H was abandoned by his mother (stopped feeding him, touching him, told him she wished he was dead, etc. after his older sister died - I guess it was extreme grief/depression) - he remembers it all and says he has since forgiven her. However, to this day fears abandonment and (ironically) being betrayed/cheated on by someone. Maybe he fears what he feels a tendency to do himself?? There was no sexual or physical abuse in my H's past. My past abuse was physical, emotional and sexual.

My H has always said that were have great sex (and I agree!). We just worked well together in the bedroom and even thought holding hands/kissing was just perfect as though we were meant to be together. My H is still having an A with this woman, and I don't know what she is like. She is very young and still lives at home with her parents. (H 35, me 32, other woman 22) I don't think he is in love with her based on what he says/does, but I think he has some strong eemotional ties to her - maybe he is in love. I don't know the full story because I haven't confronted him yet.

He was never sexually dominant - it seemed more like a partnership, although he is masculine and was not submissive in the bedroom. We never had any sexual problems.

I would say that I was dominated by him outside the bedroom. He can be very controlling and I can be very submissive.

My H is one of the few men that I did not feel any sexual issues with. With other men, I would sometimes feel a rush of anger/hate for no reason, but this never happened with my H. (We were together 5 years.)

My H knows about my past and how it can be difficult for me to trust a man enough to sleep with him, so I feel like his betrayal is more than the usual A because he must know how much it would hurt me and shake my trust (emotional, sexual, everything) in him. I can't help but think of how cruel it is for him to do this to me. (I know that's being self-centered - sorry.) Also, my H has started to tell me that he thinks I'm having/have had an A. (??) He is also rewriting history, etc. I think all of this is an attempt to feel better about what he's doing.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice.

I'm still wondering....I truly love my H, and I think I can forgive him, but I'm still not sure if I should stay married to someone who is capable of doing this.

Any other thoughts/words of wisdom are appreciated!! THanks for reaching out to me - it's such a difficult thing to experience.

Do not confuse forgiveness with reconciliation. Forgiveness is giving up your right for justice, or revenge. Reconciliation is restoring a relationship. You can forgive without reconciliation. There is no reason to reconcile with someone who continues to hurt you.

cmj

My only other suggestion is that you read up on intimacy avoidance affairs. Persons with abandonment issues often have these types of affairs.

Knowing the reason does not excuse it but will help you understand his behavior.

Ironically intimacy avoidance affairs are a sign that a person is very close to you. They just have deep seeded fear of becoming too close, too dependent on anyone person.

<small>[ December 29, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: logsec1 ]</small>

i am having some of the same questions in my marriage right now. My meets were not being met in our marriage but not once did I think that an affair would solve anything. However my wife did and not only does she have to live with that mistake but so do I. Right now I feel like I will spend the rest of my life with someone who when the going gets tough will take the easy road out. If my wife would have exhibited the habits that she is showing now I never would have married her. As it is I believe in the sanctity of marriage and can tell most people here do. Sometimes I get so angry that I am in this situation and my actions leading up to the affair may have not been the appropriate steps taken. But in no way does anyone deserve this! I am working very hard with my wife but in all I feel very cheated. While I was at home with no one to meet my needs and still no one to meet my needs although it seems i'm bending over backwards to meet hers. no lb's meeting en's with not a whole lot in return except the fact of knowing that if she wanted to she could call om and BAM! I would be replaced. it is a hell of a lot of pressure to be under. Like I say if this is what it would have been like in the beginning I never would have signed up!!!