Here is your message to me from MyAdvocate's thread on informing OP's spouse:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read your post, WAT's Guidelines and I took issue with your thoughts about exposing the A and a few other things. I wanted to post directly to you but couldn't find a thread. Perhaps I misunderstood some things. But, again I appreciate your responce regarding Exposing A.

As it pertains to exposing A for the male BSs vs. female BSs, I wonder if it is more diffcult for male BSs being that men (OM) may sometimes be more prone to react violently than for female BSs to expose A in that women (OW) (not that we do not commit violent crimes also) may have a little cat fight and then it is over? What do you and other male posters think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think gender plays any role. The potential for violence needs to be considered, but that certainly isn't limited to males. Recall the woman in Texas - I think - who ran down her WS husband with a car? But even hesitating due to a potential for violence simply delays the inevitable.

But the gender thing - even IF there is more potential for violence with males - is likely a wash in the end, right? I mean if there are two married couples and the BS in one couple is comptemplating telling the unaware BS in the other couple, there are three people who may get very, very mad. Any of them could become violent.

I'd be interested in hearing your disagreements with any other aspect of my "Guidelines." A close inspection of that entire thread will reveal that I've revised them numerous times - including revisions due to comments from others.

<small>[ January 09, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Hi Worthatry,

(Quotes by Worthatry in italics)

Thanks you for your reply. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well I went back and looked at your guidelines. You have some really helpful, oh so helpful rules in there (some good stuff). But, there are a few things that to me, may counter the concepts as they are outlined by MBs.

Ok to address some issues:

Rule# 1. You are so so, right and on the money. I can't count the times where I found myself over-analyzing my WS's statements and behavior. This makes for crazy-making on the part of the BS at a time when one wants to be very clear minded. Indeed one does become confused trying to understand a highly irrational person.

Rule# 2
I agree totally with everything in this rule with the exception of this line:


"There is little, if anything, you can do to separate the affairees. They have to do this on their own. The affair will end. "


To me, this sounds a little pessimistic. Is it based on your own personal experience? OR maybe what you've discovered from other posters? Do you disagree with measures to take toward ending the A and being proactive in, What is Plan A and Plan B?

(excerpt from, What is Plan A and Plan B)

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage.

Yes the A will end, but does the BS want to sit by and let it take its sweet time? The measures in Plan A and Plan B aren't guaranteed. But they give the BS something to work with that is sound and though confrontational potentially constructive. I will say that it is more in how skillful the BS is in intervening that is important. For example, If BS can act unknowingly and intterrupt WS's plans, I say go for it.

Furthermore, the premise of A is that the WS is addicted. In the case of an addiction yes the addictee has to decide to give it up. However would a family member sit by and watch an addict going after their addiction without trying to intervene?


Rule# 3,7, 8, 9 and 10 are great as guidance toward marital recovery

Rule# 1, 4, 5, to me are very important to help BS maintain self preservation. So important and crucial.

Rule# 6

"Do not recruit your spouse's family in an attempt to "help." If they ask questions, answer honestly, but in the long run, do not expect their support - if you get it anyway, consider it a bonus."

I had an issue with # 6 because I misread it.
I thought you were trying to convey that BS shouldn't tell WS's family. I see now that you are actually making a point not to recruit the WS's family to help you. I think that this is important also. A BS may make the mistake of thinking that the WS family will back them when in actuality they may see it as an attempt to defame their loved one. When as you put it best, blood is thicker than mud. We see cases of this in the news when a person is convicted of a crime with legitimate evidence that is stacked against them from the floor to the ceiling and the family still blames the victims or someone else.

However it is a personal choice based on the discretion of the BS. Afterall we never know how someone will react (unless of course they've told us). But some BS are actually willing to put it out there and try anyway. Some have a relationship with WS family where they are aware of WS's behavior and are likely to trust BS more than WS. (I've seen a few post where WS family did support BS). So maybe it would be better served to note it as a warning that telling WS's family may not be a good idea. Then on the other hand, it may be better for the BS not to waste efforts on this one when there is the possibilty for it to turn into a nightmare. So I see where you are coming from with this one. And you are actually saying not to voluntaritly tell the WS's family unless they ask, correct?

Well Worthatry I guess my main concern was with Rule# 2. Perhaps just a slight concern with # 6 but I understand your thought behind that one. I think everything is else is just great. Tell me what you think.

Hi Free -

Regarding Rule #2 - here it is pasted for reference:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rule 2: Don't be in a hurry. There is little, if anything, you can do to separate the affairees. They have to do this on their own. The affair will end. To hasten it's end, do not interfere with it. The fact is that there may be almost nothing you can do right now to make it better but there is a WHOLE LOT you can do to make it worse. Read this post and all its responses: On revealing the affair to the light of day
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your observation about "nothing" can be done has been a source of confusion for others, as well. Maybe I need to clarify it.

What was intended was that there is nothing DIRECTLY you (BS) can do to separate the affairees. You cannot force them apart or force them to end the affair. This comes from the body of MB guidance and ample experience from posters here. I'll bet you agree looking at it this way, huh? (That said, other parties may be able to directly end an affair - the U.S. military, for example, can do A LOT if service members are involved.)

As you point out, there are INDIRECT things a BS can do to compel an end to the affair - self improvement (Plan A) and EXPOSURE of the A for starters. But these are only influential things that lead the WSs to their own conclusion to end the affair.

About the affair ending: some may successfully refute this. My WS's affair has not ended - yet - unless you argue technically that by virtue of her marriage to OM, the affair ended when their marriage began. But the intent of the statement, "the affair will end" was to give a morale boost to BSs, recognizing that the vast, vast majority of affairs DO end - some quicker than others. The main advice here was the "do not interfere with it", i.e., don't try to force them apart. Back to my XW - her marriage is very, very likely to crash before long. In the end, her "affair" will end. It is very rare indeed that affairees live happily ever after. So, for all practical purposes, "the affair will end" is just a slight overstatement. Throw in MB or Divorce Busting principles to the situation and even fewer affairees likely live happily ever after.

Regarding Rule #6, you asked:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you are actually saying not to voluntaritly tell the WS's family unless they ask, correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not exactly. The intent here was just as it's stated - don't recruit the WS's family to help. This presumes they already know what's going on - either figuring it out on their own or being informed by others, including the BS. This does not necessarily mean - in my view - that the BS should immediately blabber the news to the WS's family. Each situation may dictact it's own response. Some may conclude the the WS's family SHOULDN'T be told at all. I think this would be rare. BUT, I believe the BS should answer honestly when questioned by any family member. Why help the secrecy? I suppose the case may arise when the WS is wavering and the BS may want to stay mum to avoid a HUGE LB - recognizing that the WS may be more compelled to work on the marriage if he/she can save face - minimizing embarassment.

Thanks for your observations.

WAT

Hi again Worthatry
(Quotes by Worthatry in italics)

"Thanks for your observations."

You are welcome. Thanks for entertaining my
questions.

"I'll bet you agree looking at it this way, huh? "

Yes,I saw it that way from the begginning that there is nothing that you can do physically. When I mention physically I mean that you can't go and pick your WS up out of the OP arms and expect that they will come along. Maybe that was a bad example. But I understood you on that. Now I understand that your intent is to state that you can't do anything directly. As I look at it physically perhaps isn't the word of choice to use. I'll go with directly.

I totaly agree with everything else in the Rule# 2 the A will end. I agree with allowing it to. However If I as the BS can make it inconvient. Well, I'm going to. That again is discretionary. I feel that it can be done without LBing also.

Your guidelines give people a jumpstart to working at saving M, wouldn't you say?

Ok, that being said if posters referred to your page and read what you have there, they may not ask questions as I have to get an explanation. Only as it pertains to Rule# 2 they may look at those lines and feel that they don't have anything in their power to do. Instead of being open to creative and constructive things that they may be able to do indirectly or influentially, they may feel pessimstic that there is anything that they can do.

That was my initial impression until I asked.
The poster may not gather that you mean this directly. The sentence first says there is little to do then the other sentence says almost nothing. I don't know, I'm not criticizing. So I hope not to annoy you.

"There is little , if anything, you can do to separate the affairees."
"The fact is that there may be almost nothing you can do right now to make it better but there is a WHOLE LOT you can do to make it worse. "

I guess I have so much hope for BS's who waste their time and efforts spinning their wheels doing all the wrong things. But then the scale may be tipped toward them doing absolutely nothing. Well those are just my thoughts. Oh and I understand your reply about Rule #6
Thanks for hearing me out.

Hi again Worthatry
(Quotes by Worthatry in italics)

"Thanks for your observations."

You are welcome. Thanks for entertaining my
questions.

"I'll bet you agree looking at it this way, huh? "

Yes,I saw it that way from the begginning that there is nothing that you can do physically. When I mention physically I mean that you can't go and pick your WS up out of the OP arms and expect that they will come along. Maybe that was a bad example. But I understood you on that. Now I understand that your intent is to state that you can't do anything directly. As I look at it physically perhaps isn't the word of choice to use. I'll go with directly.

I totaly agree with everything else in the Rule# 2 the A will end. I agree with allowing it to. However If I as the BS can make it inconvient. Well, I'm going to. That is discretionary on the part of the BS. I feel that it can be done without LBing also.

Your guidelines give people a jumpstart to working at saving M, wouldn't you say?

Ok, that being said if posters referred to your page and read what you have there, they may not ask questions as I have to get an explanation. Only as it pertains to Rule# 2 they may look at those lines and feel that they don't have anything in their power to do. Instead of being open to creative and constructive things that they may be able to do indirectly or influentially, they may feel pessimstic that there is anything that they can do.

That was my initial impression until I asked.
The poster may not gather that you mean this directly. The sentence first says there is little to do then the other sentence says almost nothing. I don't know, I'm not criticizing. So I hope not to annoy you.

"There is little , if anything, you can do to separate the affairees."
"The fact is that there may be almost nothing you can do right now to make it better but there is a WHOLE LOT you can do to make it worse. "

I guess I have so much hope for BS's who waste their time and efforts spinning their wheels doing all the wrong things. But then the scale may be tipped toward them doing absolutely nothing. Well those are just my thoughts. Oh and I understand your reply about Rule #6
Thanks for hearing me out.

freetobe - your initial reactions are very important. Please help me make Rule #2 better?

How about this?

Rule 2: Don't be in a hurry. There is little, if anything, you can directly do to separate the affairees. They have to do this on their own. The affair will end. To hasten it's end, do not interfere with it. The fact is that there may be almost nothing you can do right now to make it better but there is a WHOLE LOT you can do to make it worse. On the other hand, there is a LOT you can do indirectly to compel the affairees to end the affair on their own. Read this post and all its responses: On revealing the affair to the light of day

Please make other needed suggestions.

Thanks,
WAT

Worthatry
I think that hits the nail right on the head. It is clear very clear what you are getting across to the BS.