FL: Thank you for your kind response. Don't worry about striking a nerve - it was more a warning that I might lose perspective a little in arguing my point - because I have experienced this from your H's perspective, and am very emotionally invested in this issue. My wife thought I over-reacted when she would ignore what I said and do things her own way. I have a much stronger emotional response to it now, since it is so closely related to much of her behavior during her affair. But, I now know how to discuss it with her without losing it, and let her know how I feel, without hitting her over the head with her past sins. It took a while to get there - I'm a little slow sometimes.

One thing I missed: When you said "I am still taking the path of treating him how I would want to be treated.", the Bible verse "Love your neighbor as yourself" echoed in my head. Until I read "His Needs, Her Needs", by Harley, I never really understood that "Love your neighbor as yourself" means: "Treat other people the way THEY want to be treated." It's sort of obvious, really, because, after all, we would not want someone else to treat us the way they want to be treated - giving us, say, a new drill for Christmas when we wanted a trip to a spa, just because they wanted a drill. I really have no excuse that it took my wife's affair and Harley's book (which, btw, never mentions any Bible passage, let alone that one) to make me realize this at age 43. I hope you are not making the same mistake.

Let me share the other reason I am so convinced that telling is best. It is based on my personal experience, and I know not every BS experiences this. However, I learned by reading Torn Asunder that it is fairly common, and I am afraid your H may have had a similar experience, at least due to your unconfessed affair of 12 years ago - about the same time he was accusing you of an affair with someone else, if I understand your timeline correctly.

Although I never was consciously aware that my wife was having an affair, somewhere in the depths of my subconscious, I was aware. I couldn't believe what my feelings and intuition were telling me. I pretty much didn't listen to my feelings anyway (guy thing - but that's another story). Near the beginning of my wife's affair, I started to have thoughts that I can only describe as "wishing her dead". I would think about her plane crashing whenever she went on a business trip. I fantasized about other women. In one case, while thinking about the possibility of having an affair, I literally heard a voice in my head saying "Why not? She did." I explored opening an on-line bank account. When she got a false positive on a mamogram, there was a part of me that wanted it to be positive - but only if she actually died. When we bought some more life insurance, I thought about how I could use the money. I thought briefly about murdering her. I thought many times about just being gone when she walked in the door after a business trip somewhere (many of them where, unbeknownst to me, she saw the OM). I cannot describe how awful it was to have these thoughts. Fortunately, I was able to fend them off through prayer, by sort of internally yelling at myself to stop, re-directing my attention to other things, recalling my marriage vows and recalling the Bible's prohibitions against divorce. But the struggle internal struggle was horrible. I thought I was just evil.

The six months before she confessed to her affair she had obviously been putting more energy into our relationship. While I had noticed and appreciated her efforts, my feelings for her had continued to deteriorate. Those awful thoughts had increased, if anything. My head and my heart were at war. I was finally seeing effort to do things I had asked her to do for years without effect, yet I didn’t appreciate them. I became convinced I was evil.

After she confessed, it all made sense. In retrospect, I am quite sure that internal struggle was the result of emotionally or intuitively knowing what my intellect could not accept. It was sort of my own internal warning system going off and my brain mis-interpreting the signals. It stopped the day she confessed. There were other internal struggles after her confession - the pain and suffering every BS goes through, but those described above were gone.

My wife had no clue this was happening to me. In fact, I never told anyone until after her confession. I don't know if I would have admitted it to her if she had asked. But I sure am glad to be free of that internal conflict now - and it was her confession that released me from that mental and emotional hell of my own making.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"Why must the WS tell the BS about the affair?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because by not doing so the WS is FORCING the BS to stay married under false pretenses.

i know i have buried and ran from problems instead of facing them for the majority of my life. at 40yo, i am really trying to stop that. i know that sounds like my answer should be simple then, i should just tell.

i accept that my husband did not want to see me hurting and that he perhaps did not know how to help, especially in the case of my dad's death. it's more about the fact that for years he was unhappy in our marriage too and he not only choose to withdrawal (his words) instead of working on it, he kept telling me i was so wrong for wanting to go to MC, that we were just fine.

john, first off, the time he thought i cheated on him was a good 2-3 years before what did occur with the co-worker. it was before we had any kids. when it did happen for real, my oldest was just over 1. for us, it is the exact opposite. he has let go of all his mis-trust now. ironically, right after the last A started. In MC when we talked about the time he thought something happened. MC, which started after the A had started because my H would not agree to go MC until i decided the marriage was over and i wanted out and i decided to symbolize that decision with an A. So during MC, he told me he totally released it from his heart and mind and told me he now felt he could trust me and believe in me completely. and there i sat unable to comprehend the irony of it all. he finally decided to believe me, just in time to be dead wrong for believing me. and right then i had a choice to make, i could have let my own heart melt too, confessed and stopped the affair immediately, it had literally just begun at that point. but instead i was too far behind a wall and not wanting anything to do with letting it down.

anyway, i am so talked out and tired of thinking about this. you are right about one thing, it is exhausting.

You are right the situations are different, but I do see a connection between your cheating during your engagement and during your marriage, and his jealousy. Don't you? There may be some other connections I don't see, too. Has HE had an affair? Jealous people are frequently projecting their own expectations/assumptions/actions on others.

As for trusting you - great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , now he has COMPLETELY disconnected himself from his intuition about you. This does not exactly serve the purpose of bringing you close together.

It is sad that you had the first A and then a second one. The reason you don't want to tell is protect YOURSELF from SHAME and EMBARRESMENT. H has an RIGHT to know that the person he married and swore fidelity to is a cheater.

He needs the information so that he can make sense of why you have pulled away from him. He needs to know because it will explain all of the lies you have told him. He need to know so that he can decided if he wants to be married to a person that has had multiple affairS.

If you have any values left you must be honst with H. He needs to know the real you so that he is long being betrayed by a woman that is only concerned about her wants and needs. What about your H wants and needs?

Beau

Withholding the truth about a WS affair(s) is nothing but saving the marriage by sacrificing the BS. It seldom works because the WS often ends up having more affairs. There is a higher recidivism for multiple affairs by WS's who do not tell the BS the truth than those that do tell the truth. What these WS fail to understand is that affairs are born out of dishonesty and secrecy and that by not telling the BS the truth about the affair(s) they are continuing that same pattern of dishonesty and secrecy. Furthermore, the resolve of 'never again will I have another affair' becomes as flaky as a new years resolution in that it will be forgotten a short time later after it is made.

<small>[ January 18, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

FL,

You said some things to John I thought I would respond to.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it's more about the fact that for years he was unhappy in our marriage too and he not only choose to withdrawal (his words) instead of working on it, he kept telling me i was so wrong for wanting to go to MC, that we were just fine.

john, first off, the time he thought i cheated on him was a good 2-3 years before what did occur with the co-worker. it was before we had any kids. when it did happen for real, my oldest was just over 1. for us, it is the exact opposite. he has let go of all his mis-trust now. ironically, right after the last A started. In MC when we talked about the time he thought something happened. MC, which started after the A had started because my H would not agree to go MC until i decided the marriage was over and i wanted out and i decided to symbolize that decision with an A. So during MC, he told me he totally released it from his heart and mind and told me he now felt he could trust me and believe in me completely. and there i sat unable to comprehend the irony of it all. he finally decided to believe me, just in time to be dead wrong for believing me. and right then i had a choice to make, i could have let my own heart melt too, confessed and stopped the affair immediately, it had literally just begun at that point. but instead i was too far behind a wall and not wanting anything to do with letting it down.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In all of this, it doesn't seem to occur to you, that you had something to do with your H's withdrawal. Doesn't it occur to that your A's and how you handled them had a profound affect on your marriage and how you interacted with your H. You have in essence blamed your H for the A's.

I don't think you appreciate the power you have in your marriage, how you actions, reactions, inactions, words, sorrow, depression, affect the marriage.

One of the reasons for telling is to get it all on the table, so that both spouses can sort through this mess and understand what words, what actions, what behaviors were associated with reality.

You find it ironic that your H started to trust you just as your affair started and YOU STILL continued it. I find it very very sad. You see you removed from him any chance that he could have helped you. You gave him no chance to understand, to reach out, to KNOW what was going on.

You mentioned you hated it when I comment that it might have been better if the marriage didn't occur. Yet, in many ways you marriage has never occured. Look at the statement in quotes. Your H has been guessing and by your account guessing wrong about what is going in his marriage since the beginning. How in the world do you or could you expect him to be of any help???

Further, I guess and you confirmed that he was very critical out of insecurity, which HE HAD EVERY RIGHT TO BE. You were in an A before the marriage and have had two in the marriage.

This may surprise you, but the one I think is absolutely the lowest of the low is the 2nd one. You end up in a poor situation have sex with a guy, when you claim you really didn't want to, AND THEN CONTINUE it because you didn't want to hurt his feelings. Meanwhile you are married, you have made vows to your H, you have a family you are risking, and you don't worry about your H at all. You only worry that OM doesn't have his feelings hurt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I don't care what you say, this particular affair more than the other two, illustrates how little value you place in your vows, your marriage and your H. This man who may or may not have actually raped you had his feelings better considered by you than your marriage or your H. That is very bothersome behavior.

FL, is there any wonder your H has insecurities. Even if he doesn't know what is going on, his sensors have been telling him for a long time that THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG and he became more and more critical because he was insecure in the marriage.

Don't you see the cause and effect???

So now you are NOT going to tell him because you don't want to ruin a good thing. Yet, as you describe your marriage, one that started out with infidelity, and has continued in that vain, it was NOT a good thing for either of you. It still may not be for him, he is married to a ghost, a fantasy woman who he doesn't know.

He deserves to know. He deserves to have all of his doubts, fears, pain, isolation explained, and YOU hold the key.

You see most WS's don't think their affairs hurt anyone, especially if the A is not detected, but John gave you a wonderful example of the flaw in that thinking. I would suggest that as you post more, your H is more like John than you realize. He has been hurt. YOu may think he deserved it, even if he could not place his finger upon it. But as you pointed out he has had years of worrying about you having an affair even if the timing was not wrong.

Stop and think about that. Years where you worry that your H was or is having an affair, could you handle that? Could you handle the uncertainty, the feelings of ignorance, of being a fool for not being able to catch it? You H had to deal with that, and as he did his insecurity became deeper and deeper.

You owe him FL, big time. Please think about that. For the first time in your entire marriage he deserves to be dealing with reality, the truth, and the entirity of who he is married to. He very likely would choose to remain, but it would be HIS choice. He would insist on save guards to prevent another a affair, he would be deeply hurt, but I think he has already been hurt. He has been thinking you have had an affair for many years now. He suspects you have been lying to him, yet he does not want to lose you.

Many things to consider.

God Bless,

JL

FL and JL,

I noticed that I felt closer to my H in the beginning of his affairs also...now that I know that the affairs were going on. The reason in my opinion was because he was opening himself up. It was to someone else, but why would I think that in a "monogamous" relationship? I had no idea he was cheating, only that he seemed kinder and more open. As it turned out, he was indeed opening himself to another, but it still had an effect on the marriage.

I did not notice this during the ONSs, but I definitely did when he thought that he was "falling in love" with another. He now says that he didn't love them, that he was using them and they were using him. At the time however, it was much easier to justify a relationship where "love" was involved.

His affairs were all very short-lived and quite frankly, according to him, were mostly built on the guilt from the last one. His thought process was that I would leave him if I knew how he was anyway, so what did one more matter? That's why we believe it is so important to be honest no matter what the price for the BS or WS. It's unfair to withhold anything from each other. There has to be trust in the relationship and trust built on lies isn't really trust is it?

By not telling, my H built up walls between us. If I tried to get close to him, he couldn't feel it and those feelings sparked his guilt. My reality and his were not the same. He didn't feel that he deserved my love and affection and yet in his own pain, he demanded it at times and rejected it at others. It was very confusing to me. I was never sure where I stood with him even though we were relatively happy. In an effort to have a fairly normal marriage, I finally started to protect myself emotionally by not giving him more than I felt I could afford to lose. This doesn't mean that we didn't have good times....we had some great times, but they were usually sabbotaged somehow by my H because he didn't feel that he deserved those good times.

Everything I did "wrong" became a "reason" for why he had the last affair in his mind. It was that problem with not living within the same reality again. My actions and his reactions to them were based on his knowledge of what he'd done and mine were based on my knowledge of monogamy. Not fair. If he had told me earlier would I have left him? I doubt it, but maybe...and I should have had that right.

We are very happy together now. He is healing the root of his unhappiness from his family of origin and is not the same man that did all of those awful things. I am healing from learning of his unfaithfulness. It's been a living hell and a blessing from heaven all at the same time. It's been a time for growth both for the marriage and as individuals. It's been a time for mourning what might have been had he chosen a different path. It's been great and terrible, but it's been OURS. We're doing it together and we are so tight presently that I don't think anyone could get in. We are in love in every possible way. We are authentic.

Take care.

Stillwed

The idea that keeping the spouse ignorant of the affair helps them and prevents hurts is nonsense. I was aware of my wife's pulling away from me emotionally and in other ways, long before the affair.

Parts of her life that she had previously shared with me with great enthusiams eventually become things she did not talk about.

Things she said changed. She used to tell me that she loved me with every part of her body. Later, 'every part of her body' went away.

Same thing when we did things together. The innocent fun and sense of adventure disappeared. Instead I felt like I had to entertain her constantly or she would be bored with me.

She, of course, had no idea I was feeling this. Even when I would tell her that I thought she was distant or not completely happy she would chalk it up to a bad day or parental health or some other reason. She never understood that I sensed something wrong.

Over the past year and a half I have been on both sides of the fence. Last September, my marriage was horrible, I wanted out and I knew the only way my husband was going to let go was if I had an affair. Where I came up with such screwed up logic is beyond me. I had never so much as lied to my husband. I never complained, we never fought. That's why he always thought we had such a great relationship. There was, however, a long road prior to that leading up to my affair. I should have chosen another way to deal with the issues, but I didn't. After he found out, which was after I realized how stupid and selfish I was being (and decided that I wanted our marriage to work), he spent a year going from woman to woman (only sleeping with the last one) while I desperately tried to save our marriage and actually thought it was mutual. He, however, was hell-bent on hurting me the way I hurt him. Am I glad it came out and that I was honest when it did? ABSOLUTELY! I actually wish he had heard it from me. Did I deserve what he did over the next year? No--but I learned a lot and we have grown more together over the past month (since I found out about his affair) than we have over the past thirteen years.

I also used the excuse that I shouldn't tell him because I didn't want to hurt him. I really didn't want to hurt him, but at the time it was all about me. I thought he would leave me if he found out and that was selfish. What he did was worse than if he had just left me.

After all of this torture, I am totally convinced that anyone who is allowed to 'have their cake and eat it too' is going to. When you are honest, it prevents this old proverb from coming to fruition. It at least puts a big kink in it. I can guarantee I'll never do it again. I'm pretty sure he won't either.

The funny thing about affairs is that we make the person into being what we need to them to be. They are truly fantasy people. We use them to fill our needs and can make them into anyone we want them to be because we don't have to deal with them in real-life situations. We use them as excuses not to deal head on with our own problems. See, this isn't about your husband. It is about you, and when you decide to be completely honest with yourself and truly take responsibility for your actions, you will realize why it is so important to come clean. Then you will have the opportunity to work on the problems that led up to your behavior. He at least deserves a fighting chance in this battle.

About the children--besides the residual effects affairs have on children, there are so many direct consequences. It isn't fair to them. The night the OW called my house (after I had moved out--I just happened to be there), my ten year old son heard some of the conversation. The next day my son asked me if I talked to 'dad's girlfriend' last night and repeated some of the things that were said. I was devastated and heart-broken and explained to him that I had, that he wasn't supposed to know and shouldn't have to worry about it and that his dad and I had chosen the wrong way to deal with problems in our marriage. That we should have dealt with them together and that we are working on things to try to make our marriage better. I pray that he takes into adulthood the idea that a marriage is sacred and that there are right ways and wrong ways to deal with conflict. Further, he explained to me that he had actually made up 'plans' to get us back together. All this when I thought that we had kept our problems between us. Kids are resilient, but they also learn by example. What 10 year old in the world needs to deal with that? All because his parents made idiotic, selfish choices? None. It kills me to think that he suffered for our choices.

Please, please, please think about what you are doing and take responsibility for it now. I am only speaking from experience and truly do wish you the best. As they say--the grass isn't always greener. In my case it was dead!!!!

<small>[ January 19, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: twolf ]</small>

This may sound brutal but it seems to me that not being honest is sort of like letting yourself "off the hook". You wouldn't be so torn up about this if you didn't know it was the right thing to do. I would guess that most wayware spouses would rather not talk about their A. I believe that by not coming clean you continue to rob your relationship.

Hello,

On the issue of "saving the BS from pain" ...

At first, my W had no intention of leaving me, yet also wanted the thrill of her affair to continue. Therefore, she could not tell me about the A … and told many lies.

Then the affair ended. And at some point the motive for lying about the A shifted from essential for its continuation ... to saving me from pain? From utter selfishness to selflessness?

Please.

Where did the light shine in and the tide turn? At what point did she suddenly care about causing me pain? At what point did deceit become so clearly righteous?

Sorry, but she was afraid. Afraid to face the consequences; afraid I would leave her; afraid I would see her for who she really is. She wanted me to go on loving an idea of her that no longer existed. She wanted me to be a fool.

Causing me pain was in there somewhere, perhaps - but it was at most secondary. By choosing to have the A, she had already demonstrated to herself that SHE WAS READY AND WILLING to cause me a great deal of pain indeed – long before "to tell or not to tell" was ever an issue.

A comon theme through all of this is that the WS acted (and in some cases continues to act) in what can only be described as selfishness gone awry:

"My ENs are paramount. They are beyond examination - I have no obligation to account for them. I do not have to distinguish between emotional "Wants" and "Needs". They must all be met.

I am not responsible for meeting my ENs; that is the responsibility of those around me. If they fail to satisfactorily meet my ENs, I am entitled to seek fulfillment elsewhere.

I have no obligation to reciprocate, at least until mine are first met."

Don't get me wrong. Selfishness is a universal, and in some degree an important element to humans. Even the most altruistic amongst us is driven at some level by selfishness.

The issue, as I see it, is the degree of selfishness and the actions that we choose to take as a result.

I am not going to get high and mighty about this. I have been selfish, and I have done things which I truly regret now. I know I have hurt people close to me as a result of fulfilling my selfish needs.

I guess that's why I'm bringing this up. It is a drive we all share, but just not to the same degree.

first a thanks, again, to all those posting here. this is really giving me a lot to think/pray about.

i held off on repling yesterday as I was a bit grumpy in the morning, hurt feelings occured at end of the day between H and I, and I slept poorly and was feeling way too defensive to write anything productive and more importantly, take to heart anything I was reading. happily H and I were able to discuss the hurt feelings which turned out to be more of a flaw in our communication process than anything else and we were able to pinpoint where we each took our own side road and we were able to clarify each others feelings/thoughts. it is so nice when we can see our communication skills working enough to not let little stuff turn big.

lovesaved, you are right, maybe i have been looking for some other person here that might actually have the opinion that not telling is a good (or at least OK) idea. but i continue to post because i want to grow.

moral standards vrs. lack of opportunity, i fear i just lack moral standards, i don't know why... but the point is, i do have to work on it! if for some reason i did not learn moral standards as a kid, well, i still can now. somewhere, maybe in this thread, someone wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> an affair is the choosing of selfish fullfillment over the commitment of marriage vowas and promises. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and in my journal i wrote, as something i want to keep in the forefront of my conciousness at all times: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> choose the commitment of marriage vows and promises over selfish fullfillment </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that, after all, is a wonderful definition of the ideal love towards a spouse.

JL, i do NOT think that it is all up to my husband to "straighten up" in order for all to be well. but you are right, and i cannot hide from this truth, i have had a huge problem with my commitment to marriage and my vows. i write that in past tense, knowing it might be more honest to write it as present tense, but i just cannot, it hurts too much to write it that way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

getting offline, like you not going into bars when away on business, has at least removed me from that temptation. i did not say it was all i needed to do, but for me, it is one manditory step that i wanted to make. baby step, maybe... but still a step.

no matter what you want to think, i am changing too, not just my husband. i may not be following the path you think i need to follow at this very moment. but saying i am not changing is unfair and not helpful. (of course you are free to say it all you want anyway)

i do NOT feel that my failures and my issues are wiped out because my H has changed. WE have both changed, we are both growing. for that reason, he will not "fail" me again, he cannot fail me anymore, i see him clearer now, i was wrong for ever thinking he failed me. the difference is that now when i get hurt, and we all know that happens, i don't see him as the culprit, trying to make me unhappy.

i used to be too busy trying to take care of myself because i didn't trust he would care for me. now i see him as another person, who is not perfect, one with his own needs too. one with whom i want to spend my days with raising our family and enjoying each other's company along the way.

i have seen and felt the consequences of my actions, i had a really terrible marriage as a result of both of our actions. i have seen and felt the consequences of forgetting that marriage is about 100% giving. we are building a marriage that is nurturing each other now.

i know there were others that posted but i need to leave now to be home in time for dinner.

i don't know what will occur in the future, right now i am trying my best to love him in the present day. i really do appreciate all of you that have posted to me. i am not casting in concrete any decision to not ever tell. although i also realize that the sooner i tell the better. if too much time goes by that might be even more damaging.

ok, so obviously i am a bit confused, but i am trying my best.

thanks again

I know you feel that you are sparing your H pain. But honestly, don't you think it's the consequences you are afraid of? Whether or not you believe it, your As have affected your H. He may not be able to put a finger on it, but something has been wrong. It's like trying to build a puzzle with only a few of the pieces.

I suggest you read the article 'shattered vows' at findarticles.com and also the book Torn Asunder. It will help you to see why you do need to tell. By not telling, you are also keeping your relationships with these other men in an unrealistic, fantasy type light. The reality of his knowing will end that in a hurry.

My H's affair didn't almost end our marriage. Although it was awful, and led to me losing 25 pounds in 6 weeks and wanting to die, it was NOT half as bad as the 6 years of lies that came with it. Affairs don't always end marriages, but the betrayal/lies/secrecy often does.

Do the right thing. If you truly care for your husband, give him what he needs to make an informed decision. The truth.

p.s. it is MUCH worse finding out years later. You feel like a total fool.