Hi,
I've been over in General ??'s for quite sometime now. I changed my name back in July.
I've been advised by *Sparkle* to seek you guys out for some help.
Could you check out my thread on Gen. ??.
I'd appreciate any input at all.
Things are going to get confusing for me, now that i need to proceed with the D for financial reason, and WH shows some signs of wanting to come home.
Please help.

Alright - I'm easing back into this slooowly - so here's what I want you to do.

Fill me in here - BRIEFLY - it takes way less time to ask what I need to know than it does to read through stuff to find the essential parts.

How long married - first or subsequent - kids - issue and the heart of what is happening right now.

Give me time - I'm a bit behind these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> And if you and I have talked before under a different name of yours let me know what that is. Email me if you don't want to post it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

C

Thanks Cerri, for getting back to me so quickly!

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

Alright - definitely not brief... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So here's the thing, I'm assuming that you are looking for more than sympathy. I can do that part too, but I'm much better at the not so nice stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Obviously what he has done is terrible, and you and the kids are suffering. But I'm going to ask you some hard questions that you might not want to have to look at full in the face. I'm sorry, in no way do I want you to think that this is your fault, it's not, it never was and it never will be. But there are things that you need to look at in the past and that you need to do differently in the present if you want to change where this thing is headed. Definitely not fair, I agree. But fair doesn't seem to be one of the rules of life.

Ok - so that's the disclaimer - now for the hard part.

Thoughts on what would have been a better course of action after the first affair? (Be specific)

Talk to me about what you know now regarding working away from home. (This is essential and non-negotiable for recovery)

Also - thoughts on financial pressure (which is admittedly very real) and the impact decisions made under that kind of pressure can be detrimental.

How has being nice and not holding very hard to the boundaries laid out in Plan B played a part in getting you to this place?

Hard? I know. I've always said I don't do nice and it seems I do it even less now. But my ongoing work with the dynamics of marriage have shown over and over again that if we don't like the situation we are in then we need to change ourselves. Talking about how we feel about the things our mate is doing might feel good for 50 minutes or in the course of an email but that in itself will not change anything. I can't change your spouse by commiserating with you about how rotten he might have been - even though I'm likely to agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> What I can do is help you make some very difficult and very painful observations about your own actions and then help with implementing new ones that will get you closer to where you need to be.

Hugs,
C

Oh - and yes I know you have questions about the D and PlB and other mechanics. Humor me in my post anesthesia state and we'll get to those. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

C

ok here goes: I don't need sympathy...I need direction...

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

[b[]ok here goes: I don't need sympathy...I need direction...[/b]

Good! That's what I was hoping for. Ya still need sympathy too, and you have it, but as I said that won't make things change.

Better course of action after 1st affair:
MC, communication needs to be improved, EN's identified and met
MB(had I known)
Definately no more working on the road!!!

Yes, a good start. Particularly the no working on the road. Here is the basis from which we begin - what are the conditions that led to the affair and allowed it to continue? They need to change - all of them.

In real terms that means iron clad accountability - time together - protection and meeting needs. With all the subsets of each of those things.

Working away from home has first of all, created a self-esteem issue for WH(IMO). He wasn't here for his kids & me, he missed us, and despite working like hell, we were still not getting ahead financially.

More than that it creates distance and disconnect and it provides the opportunity to have a second life that you didn't know about. Those things are not compatible with a successful marriage.


My burnout status was probably creating a LB situation just prior to D-Day.

Possibly - but the working on the road is in itself a LBer - it is in violation of the POJA and it is an independent behavior - not in the best interest of the marriage.

WH found someone who could meet his EN's. I just wasn't available, logistically!

Yes, exactly - and that fact that you couldn't see what he was doing made it all the more possible.

Financial Pressure: led to the "working away" situation to begin with, bad decision #1.
Sticking with that plan despite A#1, bad decision #2!
Major self-esteem buster for WH. He wasn't and isn't providing for his family...

As I said - financial pressure is very real and is a life threatening issue - we can't survive without funds to care for ourselves and our families. The problem comes in when we priortize things ahead of the danger to the marriage. If one or both of you can only find work out of town then so be it - move to the new location.

Sure it's icky to move kids from their school and their friends - but you know what? - they'll get over that. They won't get over losing the security and stability of mom and dad married and their family intact. We forget those things when we make decisions. We give more credence to the immediate pain than we do the long term risks. I didn't want to have surgery - it took me away for a week and messed up my schedule for a month. Not to mention that I have stitches and look bad. But the long term ramifications of choosing not to do it are far worse.

Having to proceed with a D,purely financially to avoid being out on the street with 3 kids...
I'm out of options there.

Now why does going ahead with the D make things better for you? I'm not sure I'm getting that part.


What idiot(me) stands by and watches everything go down the tubes, sees her children suffer, when the option to D, would help the situation.

And then I have to ask are you looking at the short term pain or the long term pain? Divorce is going to wreak havoc on your kids for the rest of their lives. That is a known non-negotiable fact.



Now Plan B.
I feel the situation has been somewhat unusual for me,

Alright girlie - you and I were clicking there until we got to this..... first off, you're not supposed to be making me laugh, it hurts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .... and second EVERYONE who has ever contemplated Plan B insists that their situation is unique. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Literally, everyone.

Ok - so I'll buy that situations are unique to individuals - but the dynamics or relationships are not. You are enabling him to continue to have the affair and then to keep you in the background. By not sticking to your boundaries that say, "this is too painful for me," you are sending the message loud and clear that it's ok to continue the affair because you'll back down from those stated boundaries.


because of the fact that WH has been away for so long. The hard part of separation from all familiar was already done for him. He was already used to it.

It's not just the sep. It's the energy dynamic that says - I'm not playing anymore - I'm not in the background, you don't get to come home and then leave again - You are on your own. That's a much colder and lonelier place to be than just separated by miles. It's a psychological and emotional barrier that you erect.

I have felt all along that he needed MORE contact, MORE Home time, not less. He needed to see that if he could just reconnect with everything he had been away from....

And you are probably right - but that's not going to happen while he is working away from home and hanging out with Bar Chick.


And then emotionally I couldn't stand the pain of the A in my face anymore and I would begin PB again.

See, and really there is no such thing as a bad Plan B. It's like pregnant or dead - you either are or you are not, there is no wavering. So what you did was a bad Plan A with some punishment in the form of a faux PlB tossed in there.

When I see signs of WH needing a map home...I slip out of PB.

Tempting, I know. But as you have seen it doesn't work. He comes home - far too easily - and then because he didn't need to work to get there he doesn't appreciate it and so when the addiction calls his name he's on the road again to Bar Chick.

I also feel that PB makes me the common enemy for WH and OW in some way, which I feel prolongs the A.

Ohhhh....no...... we like it when they have something to talk about that is not pleasant and happy. Don't care if that thing is you, just so there is conflict. Eventually the whining and complaining will get to one of them and LU's will start to be withdrawn.

But in my head I know that PB is the only way to go. I just can't stand it for very long, and I feel I need a pulse check on the A...and where WH is with his guilt and confusion.
Both are great, and that is what gives me hope.

Yeah - I know. But it's not working to end the A and heal the marriage, is it?

When I am nice, WH knows the "door is still open", and he can take his sweet time.

And you would want to send that message - why? It's not real - you are getting ready to file for D and eventually you won't care if you ever see him again or not.


I am a conflict avoider.

And in the blunt world of C we call that "Dishonest." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I need to identify my own EN's and learn how to ask for them to be met. And more importantly, I need to believe that I deserve them to be met.

You need to learn to be honest about how you feel in the moment and to negotiate for the changes you would like. As you work on the honesty part you will begin to recognize your needs - the deserving part - well, that comes with time.


Have I answered your questions?

Very nicely, thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is hard!

One of my dear friends and one of the mentors I an training said the sweetest thing about me - "Not for the faint of heart...." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Ok, I pretty much understand and figured out the circumstances and environment that led to both A's.

I know what needs to happen should he decide to come home.

I understand the benefits of Plan B. My sanity for one! I'll continue to work on sticking to it.

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

I woke up this morning thinking about you and this dog-chasing-his-tail mess you are in. Seems that no matter what you do it feeds the a cycle that keeps getting worse and you can't get out. And then it hit me that we are taking two entirely different subjects and making them the same issue.

The finances and the threat to your home and your lives is one thing. The affair and what to do about it are another. Interconnected, certainly - they spiral all around each other and that clouds the picture making hard to know where the solution or action that is appropriate for one ends and the same for the other begins.

Alright so having said that I have a question for you...

If there was no infidelity would you be considering a divorce in order to free up financial resources

Lot's of unknowns there Cerri!

So basically, no, if there was no infidelity, I would not be persuing a D to protect my family. I wouldn't have to.

A's have far more complicated implications than just broken hearts.

I don't think there is an easy answer for this.

I appreciate your time on it though, more than you'll ever know. It's tough struggling with this on one's own.

I also think that per WH's usual practice, he knows, I'll take care of everything...

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

Ok - let me rephrase -

If there was no infidelity but the rest of the story concerning finances and employment was the same - bandruptcy and some other obligation in place of s/s but for the same amount - would you be pursuing D to save your house?

And, yes I know this is a simplification of something very complex..... humor me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

C

Funny you should mention Humour!

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

THIS IS ALL SO CRAZY!


I want to call and say that to him:

THIS IS CRAZY? DO YOU WANT TO COME HOME OR NOT? MAKE UP YOUR FRIEKIN MIND!
DON'T FORCE ME TO DO THIS IF THERE IS ANOTHER WAY?

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

Alright - take a deep breath..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No, it's not crazy and it is unfortunately very very common. But it makes you FEEL like you're going insane.

I'm tempted to push you a little harder, but I can see that you might implode and it's messy when that happens and only one of us gets to be on the injured list at one time. Sooo.... I will assume unless you say otherwise that the answer to my question is - No - all other things being equal, if there was no infidelity in the picture you would not be considering divorce to solve a financial problem.

That was my thought when I woke up this morning - yes obviously the two are related and each has contributed to the downward spiral of the other - but I think we need to decide what the priorities are here and to separate out which solutions are for which issue. And yeah - I know - the clock is ticking.

I'm also very interested to see that you pose another "only" solution. I don't think for a moment it is the only other way but it does show that your head and your focus is looking for options and that is a very good thing.

So let's make some lines of separation here.

The affair -
Still active
Still working out of town (?)
Plan B not really happening

Who have you told? And what other steps have you taken to rock the A boat? Confronted her? Told his boss? How have you made it less than pleasant to be involved with Bar Chick?

Finances -
Are they actively foreclosing on your house?
Have you talked to the mortgage holder?
Is your car being taken because you are not making payments?

Start listing every possible solution - even those that seem completely silly or impossible. Include the D because it's already on the table.

And what is the drop dead need to have a solution date? And what do we need to do to extend that.

Hey, if I haven't imploded yet...it ain't gonna happen, LOL! Oh, but I've come close...

The affair, yes still active...
Still working out of town...yes
Plan B...currently going ok...but only 2 weeks into this time

Who have you told?
EVERYONE knows....friends, family, OW'sSTBX(I called him early on, as soon as I found their identities)Even an old acquantance wrote him a letter,"saying what are you doing manYes, I confronted her...early on....a couple of phone calls and letters....I think it rocked the A at the time...WH VERY angry...once I even gave her tel# to creditors to reach WH. I said,"hey you want him...you get the whole package...creditors and all, why should I just get the crap".

I think I've done all I can on that front to make it uncomfortable...the fact that he can't include his children in his fantasy world is a biggie. I risk harrasment charges if I call, write, etc. So they've told me. I've been tempted though...I still think it threatens the A whenever I had contact....

I'm out of solutions....
Family support has stopped.

Solution date: Yesterday!

Really Cerri...I'm between a rock and hard place here...there are no options!

Oh yeah, WH wakes up tomorrow from his foglike state...ends the A...comes home...I've waited it out too long as it is...hoping a another option would arise...now it may already be too late if banks don't work with me.


How low do I have to go??

<small>[ January 24, 2004, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Shugah ]</small>

Hey, if I haven't imploded yet...it ain't gonna happen, LOL! Oh, but I've come close...

Well, from our brief time together you seem to have your head on straight, to be intelligent and to be one very strong woman (shhhh... don't let JL and CoffeeMan hear me say this but woman and strong in the same sentence is redundant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )


EVERYONE knows

Very excellent. Good work.

I said,"hey you want him...you get the whole package...creditors and all, why should I just get the crap".

LOL LOL LOL Ohhhhhh yessss...... that is what I like to hear. A woman with some attitude. I couldn't have said it better myself.

I risk harrasment charges if I call, write, etc. So they've told me. I've been tempted though...I still think it threatens the A whenever I had contact....

Hummmmm...... well if you are making threats or being rude you certainly do - but there are ways to have contact legitimately if it serves the purpose, but not in PlB - sorry....

Car will be taken when bankruptcy complete.

Are you working? How can they take your car? That seems to make it really hard to recover and get back on your feet.


Really Cerri...I'm between a rock and hard place here...there are no options!

There are always options - it's finding them that is the hard part, and we're not always successful in doing so in timne.

Oh yeah, WH wakes up tomorrow from his foglike state...ends the A...comes home...quits the Union...begs my family for $ to see us through this....

Even if he wakes up tomorrow he doesn't get to come home until I say he gets to - he needs to agree to conditions and prove that he is willing to protect you from this in the future.

I'm calling the bank now.
Good. But they are going to want to know what the plan is for making the pmt. You night want to ask if you can make interest only payments for the next three months while this gets sorted out.

Already called the oil company to see if I can get a heating oil delivery on credit...

Very good. I don't know where you are in the country but here it is well below zero today.

How low do I have to go??

I know it feels horrible and as if you are a failure because these financial things are so dire at this time. But there is nothing low about you or your actions to do what you need to for your family. Money does not make us honorable or better or smarter or more of anything except in terms of material goods and comfort. It's not a reflection of you and your dignity as a human being. Having been raised by a single mom in situations that weren't too different from what you describe I would say that it gives you a greater dignity than those who don't understand what this struggle is like.

So tell me about support that your husband is supposed to be paying to you. And then talk to me about your skill sets and let's see if there is some way to add to your income.

Also - PlB - you gotta make it real this time. And that means that if he wants to see the kids he needs to pick them up and take them somewhere and then bring them back. He doesn't get to put so much as his little toe in your home. It also means that you have NO COMMUNICATION with him at all. Who do you have that can help you with this?

So, even if you file for D it takes time. Any idea how long in your state? What happens if he gets fired from the union - does he get his pension then?

C

Cerri,
I'm sorry, I'm just not comfortable going into any more detail about support and finances on the public formum.
If for some reason WH were here (doubt it, but he does have SAA)...plus family has betrayed me with info here also...under my last identity.
Have probably gone too far already.

I'm on the run right now...basketball game for S...I'll try to continue,what I can, later.
Thanks sooo much...

I'm just not comfortable going into any more detail

Understand entirely. Email me if you want to talk more about this. Just realize that my email response time is slower than here because there's a lot more to juggle.

help@saveyourmarriagecentral.com Put your screen name in the subject line so I know it's you.

Have fun at b-ball - the bane of our existence this time of year.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Hi,
I emailed you from home last night, but also just emailed you with my work email address... I seem to have more time to respond at work!
Thanks for EVERYTHING!