For a long time my wife's emotional needs were not met. She was reluctant to talk with me, and read many 'lonely' type self help books. We have (3) kids, and we work opposite shifts. Our friends are usually couples. My spouse has a good friend that she works with and when we go out with her and her boyfriend, as couples, have fun. My wife came to me and revealed her (same sex) affair with her friend. I did consider this person my friend, and her boyfriend is in our children's lives for their activities. My wife and I are now being open and honest with each other, and as part of that honesty, just after our first imtimacy (love making) we have had since the affair, she revealed to me (trufully this time) just how intimate she was with her friend. She would like to keep her friend, and wants me to still be able to go out with this couple. What should I do?

You should read what SKM wrote 2 Sarie recently:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=026504

The only difference in your si2ation is that your W had a homosexual A. It's no less destructive 2 your M. Her "friendship" was over the moment they 2k it 2 an inappropriate new level.

best,
-ol' 2long

Hello,

My friend you would have to be out of your mind to accept this. Your wife betrayed you, broke her vows to you and was sexually intimate with her girl friend and she wants you to accept her continuing friendship and continue to go out with this couple?
Would it have made a difference to you if she told you she had sex with the boyfriend? Would she still expect you to be friends with him and continue to go with them as a couple?
How do you think your wife would act if you told her that it was you that had a sexual relationship with another man or woman and you want to continue the friendship and continue to go out as couples?
Your wife is still humiliating and disrespecting you by her actions. To continue to have a friendship with another person she cheated on you with and expecting you to continue to socialize with them as a couple is beyond comprehension.
Open your eyes. Your wife betrayed you and your marriage vows by having a sexual relationship with another person. If you accept this what kind of message are you giving her. Are their no consequences to her actions? If you accept this then the chances of your marriage continuing in a healthy mode in the future is greatly diminished.
The bottom line is that your wife is continuing to disrespect you and must think you are quite the fool to accept such an arrangement. Please open you eyes.

It has been a while since I wrote the original, and I appreciate your responses.

We have started marriage councelling. I am not sure it is working, as I feel still rejected by my spouse emotionally. We are much more open than we ever were with each other, but how do I know she is not re-living (via daydreams, etc.)her 'forbidden' days? Or even if I perform oral sex on her if she is not thinking of her former lover?

I consider what she did a very selfish act. How do I know she won't be selfish in this way again?

How much do I have to just live with for the sake of our marriage & our kids?

My situation is very similiar to yours...My wife had a sexual experience with her best friend last summer and I found out about it 2 months ago. One difference however, is that her best friend's husband watched the incident. These people live directly across the street from us. I was working away from home when it happened. We are currently going though councelling to come to terms with this crisis.

My wife also feels that her emotional needs have not been meet for sometime and she feels that she is being controlled. We have not addressed any of these specific issues yet as we are still dealing with the crisis. Our counellor has asked me to have faith in my wife that she may carry out a "normal" relationship with our neighbors. I feel that I must generate some forgiveness for her actions if I am going to stay with her. I do love her deeply. We have two children. I think that I am reaching the point where I can forgive the "mistake" that she made and move on to our general relationship problems. I am, however, struggling with the idea of keeping the friendship with the neighbors.

She said that she was curious to experience sex with a female and now that curiousity is gone and that she will not do it again. She has been with her friend lots of times since the incident and has told me that she has had no ideas about doing it again.

Like you, I also feel deeply rejected. But I am learning that this is not my fault and I have to accept it for what it was. A wild sexual experience that my wife selfishly had with her best friend, while another man watched, and I was 200 miles from home.

Hello,

I think you need a new counselor. It is ridiculous for him to tell you that is acceptable to be friends with your neighbors. Hello.... Your wife had sex with the wife while the husband watched. At the end your wife kissed him goodbye at least this is what she told you.
This is total humiliation and disrespect for you and your marriage. She then continues to hang with the other woman and tell you everything is fine and everybody should be friends?

The husband has seen your wife naked making love to his wife and he had kissed your wife goodbye.
And tell mee again how you are supposed to feel good being in their company? Apparently there were no consequences to your wife's actions since she continues to be friends with the neighbors against your feelings and continues to associate do things with your wife.

Do you really think if the roles had been reversed that your wife would have thought it was all right to still be friends with the neighbors?
She is still disrespecting you by keeping this connection to the neighbors. It is so obvious how can anybody miss this? It really seems that she is putting her friendship with the neighbors above you and your feelings. Her behavior to you is insulting by continuing this friendship. Ending the friendship is the absolute least she should have done. Apparently she is very selfish and seems to lack much remorse. I think you are very foolish to accept this behavior from your wife. Why in the world would you put up with this?
I wish you luck.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by friend with spouses lover:
<strong> It has been a while since I wrote the original, and I appreciate your responses.

We have started marriage councelling. I am not sure it is working, as I feel still rejected by my spouse emotionally. We are much more open than we ever were with each other, but how do I know she is not re-living (via daydreams, etc.)her 'forbidden' days? Or even if I perform oral sex on her if she is not thinking of her former lover?

I consider what she did a very selfish act. How do I know she won't be selfish in this way again?

How much do I have to just live with for the sake of our marriage & our kids? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you need to surface the hidden agenda here-was this affair to satisfy some curiosity or a foolish impulse, as in kz's case, or is your wife a lesbian? If she really is a lesbian who married you because she could not accept her sexuality or because she wanted social approval or wanted children, you are in a much different situation than you are if she married you for love but then got disaffected and decided to have a fling. Either way there is a lot of hurt, but if she is living a false live, she might not ever be able to connect to you the way you want or fill your needs, or you hers.

I think this is the question that is really at the back of your mind, and it needs to be asked, because until you have an answer, you won't know what you want to do. I realize you have children and you may want to keep your marriage together for their sake no matter what, but if there was ever a time for radical honesty, I think this is it.

BT,

I feel for you. I know what that kind of rejection feels like. I hate to say this, but I'm kind of glad there are other people who have gone/going through this that I can bounce ideas/feeling off (sorry, that seems so selfish).

I have thought many times that if my wife was just after sexual devience, I could just be more wild. However, I think it was originally the lack of connection she felt for me.

She never was open about how she felt, and started coping with things on her own, by pushing/pulling away. Eventually, she started relying on friends for some of that emotional support. I know I can not be her everything, but I would like to know what she feels. I can read her body language, but she telss me I am wrong if I ask.

Like you, our counsellor initially said that with my wife working with this friend, and her living one block away, it would be difficult for her to not keep the relationship. However, there has been some leway as the sessions have gone on, with the councellor wanting my wife to think about her actions/contact with her friend and how that might make me feel.

So far, that has just backfired, as my wife has become sneaky about the situation, not wanting to hurt me, or get a negative reaction. Last week she carpooled with this friend to a going-away part at her work. She intentionally neglected to tell me this fact. They then picked up my son from his evening activity, and had to go back for something he forgot. When my son came in the house alone, I found out his mom way with her friend. I called, being jealous already over this whole mess, and she said "I'm was just leaving the YMCA [(8 minute drive), and I have already dropped off my friend.]" This is where it gets bad... I went down to the corner & watched her friend's house, and sure enough, here comes the two of them and my wife goes in. I went down the street, knocked, and started yelling upon entering. My wife was using the bathroom.

I yelled, she eventually finished, we left with me giving her an ultimatum to leave now, or don't come back, and later, after more fighting, she left for the night. She ended up back at this friend's house and I had feared I had lost her altogether. The lying set it all off again. Earlier in the day, her & I were kissing like two teenagers.

I do beleive my wife now that her continued relationship is purely friends and not sexual, but I am still jealous of their emotional connection and the lack of trying on my wife's part.

My wife works a 12-hour night shift job 3-4 days a week and I don't see her but in passing on those days. The attention she gives this friend bothers me, as I feel like they get more time together (with work & off time), than her & I do. I just want to spend as much time as I can with her, but, I have got to the point of being smothering, and this has pushed her away further.

I also have come to realize that I have many issues of my own with need, self-image, self-esteem, and even self-loathing. I for so long sacrifised for her & my family while she kept me put down so she became superior to me (in both our minds). As I realize the person I am again, I just hope I still find her a desirable mate, and I don't head toward divorce.

elspeth,

I have come to grips with the sexual dishonesty, and I really don't care about it anymore. For a while their act was all I could visualize. I really went over the edge, feeling very alone & trapped with 3 kids I had to have a good face for them, while I cried in spurts behind closed doors. Only to gather composure, check on them & do it over again.

At this time, she is still not sure what she wants or what will make her happy. She was worried she was a lesbian, but I don't think now if that is her future it would bother her. She keeps saying "I love you, but am I in-love with you?"

I still deeply love her, but I realize she is not the "all" in my life I thought she was. I can survive without her. I have just backed off and I need to wait it out. The question is... How long my patience can hold?

In recovery, per Dr. Harley, there is no contact with a former lover by any means whatsoever for any reason whatsoever for life.

Plus, if you do something that you are not enthusiastic about, you are outside of the POJA.

Bryanp

Thanks for your feedback. I agree with may of your thoughts but I'm also have to be realistic about this event. My wife has confessed to me that this action was 90% her responsibility. She has told me every detail of the act which lasted 10-20 minutes. She has shown remorse. She kissed the husband on the way out because she felt said that he became involved by being there while the two girls did their thing. They went into the room while he was asleep and did their thing. She was sorry that she put him in the situation. These two people as members of a large circle of friends that number about 10 people. It is very difficult for me to demand that my wife have no contact with the two of them because they are part of the larger group. It's complicated but reality. I'm getting the sense that infidelity is never simple. I'm glad that she did not have an emotional affair with one of my close male friends as I think that this would be alot harder for me to handle. But that does not mean that this one is easy.

To KZ650


I really feel for you. I think you are in such a difficult situation. I just don't know how you could handle having to constantly see them and continue to be in the same social circle. I wish you luck.

Gents, I'm a woman. My wayward partner is a woman. Her affair was with a man. I'm in Plan B. I very nearly lost my daughter AND my spouse in the process of getting out of the situation. You can read about it in my thread, wherever that's gotten to.

And since I'm looking at all this from the other direction, I'll tell you two things straight out.

It's not about "sexual deviance." (Sheesh.)

It's about having an affair. It is absolutely NO DIFFERENT from any other tawdry affair that anyone ever has. You can be horrified or disgustedly intrigued by it, just like every other betrayed spouse in the world. You can cry and puke and rage and disbelieve and freak out any direction you want to.

And in the end, it's not about whether the other lover is a boy or a girl or an alien. It's about screwed up boundaries and playing with fire and becoming addicted to the burns, even though they destroy your marriage and your family and your home.

You can live through it.

You can thrive.

You can grow.

You can become more than you ever thought possible.

Or you can come apart completely.

Your choice.

My wife and I had a conference call today with our counsellor. I'm currently working away from home and I was thinking about going home because I'm so sad. I repeated to the counsellor and my wife that I'm having difficulty believing what I have been told about this incident. I dreed that something happened between my wife and the husband that watched. My wife emphatically denied having any sexual contact with him even after I told her several times that I am ready to forgive whatever happened. She has repaetedly told me that she is not willing to tell me something did happen when it didn't. Our counsellor told me that I was trying to make up some other version of the truth. He said this was not the right thing to do. I told me that I had to either accept what I know, forgive it and move on or our marriage is going to sink. And I believe this to be true. It's been 9 weeks since I found out about this and I cannot continue to drag it out. I have to make a choice to stay or go.

I talked with my wife after our session with the counsellor and told her that today is the day that I offer her forgiveness for this act. I beleive what she has told me to be true and I must forgive her at this point to avoid breaking up our relationship all together. I love her very much, and I beleive that she loves me as well. It's now time to focus on meeting our emotional needs. This is the real reason why we have drifted apart.

J,

I appreciate the insight. It is absolutely true.


KZ,

I feel for your situation. It is hard when you are away and those others are so close in proximity. You don't know how many times I have thought about moving with my kids somewhere and inviting my spouse to join us. But I know that the problem isn't the other, it's my spouse.

If you can look forward, and forgive the past-- do. I just know it will be hard not to dredge up those old feelings of mistrust while being in the same social circle as those neighbors.


On my situation,
We had a councelling session yesterday, and my spouse aggreed to severing her relationship with the her friend. They still work together, so there will have to still be contact, but she has told me she will no longer call, drop by (1 1/2 blocks away) her house, or bring my children over there. I guess I am then in Plan A?

But how does this work. My wife has since agreeing to severing her contact with this other woman become beligerent, spiteful & mean. She is being more selfish than normal and intetionally trying to draw a negative reaction from me. I am not replying with anything other than love and sincere good feelings towards her, even going as far as to continue to do small loving acts that will allow her to sleep, ease her day, etc. If she keeps this attitude up, along with the frequent phone calls to 'tell me where she is, because that is what I want', how do I handle it?

This is so hard to do, see her on off nights, have her phone 4-6 times in the middle of the night when I have to sleep, and keep all of this under wraps so the kids do not get worried.

Any advise?

J

Just for clarification, are you saying that your spouse is female and she had an affair with a male?

Friend

I hear you. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that your wife agreed to sever her relationship with the other woman. Do you mean sever their friendship or sever their affair? Has their affair still been ongoing to date? If she agreed to sever their friendship, then I guess your on Plan A but I'm no expert. I only started using this site this week.

I have also seen the signs of selfish response. I expected emotional support but she has not given me alot. I have be asking for it but she says that she has been unable to offer it because we have been argueing about the incident details.

I understand your point regarding communication. During our session with the counsellor the other day we agreed that my wife and I would talk twice each day. At 10 pm and 9 am while I'm working nightshift way from home. This has been working well for the last couple of days. Maybe you could consider some type of routine as well so that you can get some sleep. It's not necessarily bad that she wants to have communication with you...my wife has limited communication with me several times over the last nine weeks because of all our fighting.

Your wife may be responding somewhat harsh to you because she has agreed to sever her contact with the other and she is having difficulty with this commitment and your expectation that she will live up to it. If you truly want to forgive this affair and continue your marriage then my only advise would be to cut her some slack and let her work though it...see if you can give her some support with this commitment and after some time revaluate if she is willing and able to meet this commitment.

How deep was/is her relationship with the other woman? How long has the affair been going on? Was/is it an emotional affair?

Regarding our situation,
I think that my situation is very similiar to yours. My wife wants to keep her friendship with her friend that she had this experience with. This girl was, and to some degree, still is her best friend. I have told my wife over the last several weeks that I am uncomfortable with the two of them having a significantly close friendship. Our kids are good friends with her friends kids, we take turns driving the kids to school, and our kids play together. This is a complicated situation. My wife has told me that she she would like to continue the friendship with her wayward friend because she is funny, supporting and repects her point of view.

I talked with my wife over the phone last night and she asked me if I had any objections to her going out with the larger circle of friends for a game of pool Saturday night. Her best friend( I'll call her A) and her husband, who watched the incident( I'll call him B) are also planning to go. I replied by saying that although I have faith that she will not let this type of incident occur again, I am still uncomfortable with her being around A and B. I said that I'd prefer that she did not socialize with them for a while. She replied that she thought that I was over-reacting but she does understand my point of view. She does not recognize that she had an "affair". She says there were no emotions involved just bisexual curiousity. She admits to a single bisexual "incident" with her best friend. And her curiousity is over, she felt freakish and weird the next morning, but enjoyed it while it happened.

Our counseller is encouraging me to state to my wife that I have faith in her to have a "normal" relationship with A and B. The counsellor believes that I must accept and move on and demonstate to my wife that I can move on or sink the marriage. But does accepting and forgiving mean that I have to accept a close friendship between my Wife and A? I asked my wife a few weeks ago if she thought that she could have a weaker relationship with A,(ie. not talking with her everyday) and she replied that she thought that their friendship would never be as it was before, that it was going to be different. After talking to my wife about here plans for playing pool, she told me that A has be supportive in helping her get though this ordeal. Now I'm feeling that although I've asked her to reduce her contact with A, out of respect for my feelings, she has continued to have a strong relationship with A, so much so that A is helping her cope. This was not what I wanted to hear. I would like my wife to rely on me, or anyone else in the world right now for emotional support. I need to talk to our counsellor about this issue but I won't be talking to him for another 2-weeks. And I don't want to rock the boat too much while I'm working away from home. What do you think?

I'm unsure if my wife had an "affair". I know that she admits to this single sexual "incident" but was it an affair? What is an affair? Should I be looking for help with coping with, and forgiving, an affair or should I be considering some other set of solutions? Is it appropriate for me to consider starting Plan A and asking for complete separation from my wife and A? What is a realistic solution to the friendship issue given that common circle of friends is so large and many of the friends in this group have been there all our lives?

To KZ

This is such a huge mistake and your counselor is wrong. Your wife cheated sexually on you with this other woman. The relationship has changed with this woman and clearly your wife is emotionally attached and she counts on her for a strong friendship. She then wishes to go play pool in the evening with her and the husband who watched the sex act? If the roles were reversed she would never accept this.
I strongly believe that unless there is no contact this is just the beginning of your troubles. For the future you will have to endure your wife hanging out with this woman as a deep friend who was intimate with her behind your back.
You will always feel uncomfortable and wondering what she is up to if you have an argument or working away at the time. I think it is very unfair that you are expected to condone this behavior and accept her continuing deep friendship with this woman. It will only lead to continuous heartache and insecurity on your part and is very destructive to your marriage. Again your wife continue to place her female friend above you and your marriage. It seems so obvious that no contact is essential. I really feel sorry for you and the continued selfishness of your wife.
The continued friendship goes against the basic principles of marriagebuilders. I am afraid that you are deluding yourself if you do not believe this. I wish you luck.

My wife wants to keep her friendship with her friend that she had this experience with.
This is typical.

I have told my wife over the last several weeks that I am uncomfortable with the two of them having a significantly close friendship.
And well you should tell her that. She should not be having ANY relationship with her.

This is a complicated situation.
Not really.

My wife has told me that she she would like to continue the friendship with her wayward friend
She might WANT it but she cannot.

I talked with my wife over the phone last night and she asked me if I had any objections to her going out with the larger circle of friends for a game of pool Saturday night. Her best friend( I'll call her A) and her husband, who watched the incident( I'll call him B) are also planning to go.
You should have told her you have EVERY objection.

I replied by saying that although I have faith that she will not let this type of incident occur again
Why would you say that? What is preventing it from happening again?

I said that I'd prefer that she did not socialize with them for a while.
YOU need to understand that nothing will get better in your marriage while she maintains friendship with these people.

She says there were no emotions involved just bisexual curiousity.
Then she will have no objections to NOT having her as a friend.

Our counseller is encouraging me to state to my wife that I have faith in her to have a "normal" relationship with A and B.
You wife has already "demonstrated" that she CANNOT have a normal relationship with A&B.

The counsellor believes that I must accept and move on and demonstate to my wife that I can move on or sink the marriage.
Uh, your counselor is a loser. Get a new one.
The marriage sinking would be YOUR fault? She had an affair and continues to see these people and this is "okay" with your counselor"?

And I don't want to rock the boat too much while I'm working away from home. What do you think?
I agree. You need to get a job where you do not work away from home. Also, I suggest you move. Living across the street from these "friends" is not gonna do either of you any good.

Is it appropriate for me to consider starting Plan A and asking for complete separation from my wife and A?
Absolutely!

What is a realistic solution to the friendship issue
A realistic goal is to have nothing to do with these people.

Sadly, your wife & "friend" destroyed what they had when they had sex. There can be no "friendship" which will not destroy your relationship with your wife.

Bryanp / Chris

Thanks for your advise. Tell you the truth, I've been feeling that the friendship has to end entirely since this came out. But my wife has been telling me that her situation is "different", that it was just "curiuosity", it was "not emotional", it was "an incident" and not "an affair". And because I don't want to drag her reputation though the gutter, I've been somewhat negotiable reagrding her friendship with the neighbors. But I beleve you guys are correct in what you're telling me. Her contact with A and B must stop entirely, no ifs, ands, or buts.

I stated my feelings on this to my wife this morning and she was very upset all day. Initially she told me that if I demand this of her then she is going to be even more resentful toward me. I think that I'm going to have to take that chance. She thinks that I am over reacting. I'm going to talk to our counseller about this tomorrow.

I feel moved to join this discussion.

Quote...
"Bryanp / Chris. Thanks for your advise. Tell you the truth, I've been feeling that the friendship has to end entirely since this came out."

YES. Braynp and Chris are right!

Quote...
"But my wife has been telling me that her situation is "different", that it was just "curiuosity", it was "not emotional", it was "an incident" and not "an affair".

Some of this might even be true BUT once she's had sex with the other person the relationship has changed fundamentally and there's no going back. The consequence is that it has to end. A crucial boundary has been crossed.

Quote...
"And because I don't want to drag her reputation though the gutter, I've been somewhat negotiable reagrding her friendship with the neighbors. But I beleve you guys are correct in what you're telling me. Her contact with A and B must stop entirely, no ifs, ands, or buts."

YES!

Quote...
"I stated my feelings on this to my wife this morning and she was very upset all day."

This is because the realtionship means something to her and she doesn't want to give it up. You cannot compromise on this if you want your marriage to survive. Be strong, without being disrepectful. You need to make sure your W understands that your only motive is to save your marriage - not to hurt her or the OW.

Quote...
"Initially she told me that if I demand this of her then she is going to be even more resentful toward me. I think that I'm going to have to take that chance."

Yes you are, because the alternative is to accept something unacceptable. You should ignore this emotional threat and keep the focus on the fact that this relationship is a threat to your marriage and hurtful to you. Your position is absolutely reasonable and anyone who says otherwise isn't talking sense.

Quote...
"She thinks that I am over reacting."

So let me get this clear. She has sex with someone else. You want her to end that relationship and have no further contact. And you're over-reacting?! Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad!

Have you told her how important the exclusivity of your sexual relationship is and how much it hurts that she's had recourse elsewhere? The emotions you're having to deal with? Do not take it for granted that this will be obvious to her. Spell it out.

Quote...
"I'm going to talk to our counseller about this tomorrow."

Now get this and get it good! This counsellor is clearly incompetent and you should not be discussing anything with him or her. [The edit in this post is that I originally used a stronger word than incompetent.]

Read the material on this site about choosing a marriage counsellor. A counsellor who thinks it's OK to carry on seeing a former lover is not someone to seek advice from.

<small>[ February 16, 2004, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: lovesaved ]</small>