Lovesaved

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"Have you told her how important the exclusivity of your sexual relationship is and how much it hurts that she's had recourse elsewhere? The emotions you're having to deal with? Do not take it for granted that this will be obvious to her. Spell it out."

To be honest, I've been with this woman since high school which amounts to about 20 years. I cannot recall specifically talking about the issue of exclusivity over the years....I guess I assumed that it was understood. I've been with her since we were 16 years old. I think that she understood my value on this topic. Since this incident has come out, I have suggested that we develop a list of core values and principles that we agree are essential for the well being of our relationship and our family. I have written to her several times about the emotions that I am feeling right now. She is quite aware.

I have taken the necessary steps to seek some advise from another counsellor and I am reviewing the info at this web site to ensure that I ask the right questions before I commit to any sessions. Please check back in a few days for an undated post. I'd like to get your feedback again. Are you a counselling professional yourself?

Hey Friend

Are you still out there? How's your situation going?

Hi again. I have huge sympathy for your position and the fear you must be feeling that a wrong decision at this point could ruin everything. The temptation is to play "safe" and compromise too much, leaving you with a situation that isn't sustainable.

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"I have written to her several times about the emotions that I am feeling right now. She is quite aware.

Expressing how you feel is good. The focus needs to be on how her actions affect you rather than on her having done wrong or being a bad person. But I would caution against communicating in writing too often - it's not the natural means of communication between husband and wife. It's a useful technique once in a while to show the other person that you've spent time pondering exactly how to express yourself and to make sure you get to say everything you want to say.

No I'm not a counselling professional, but I'm pleased you thought I might be. I'm a Methodist Lay Preacher so people do come to me with problems and I do my best but my training in this area is minimal and I mostly refer them on.

However my wife had an emotional affair some time ago with another man and we've worked through it so I have an inkling of your feelings.

Bryanp/lovesaved/chris/friend

Tonight I talked with the counseller that I have been dealing with to date and asked him why he thought that it was resonable for my wife to want to me to accept a continued relationship with A and B. He said that given that this was a one time non-emotional thing, he thought that it was reasonable for my wife to ask me to continue friendship with A and B. He said that he does not believe that it was a emotional affair. I the same breath, he said that he believes that a response of rejection of this idea and a demand from me to end the freindship immediately is also understandable and rational. But he said it's not for him to decide, but us to decide. I said his role in this is to guide our communication though this crisis, not to offer guideance on the issue or pass judgement on the issue or the response to an issue.

Any thoughts?

KZ:

Let me ask you a question if you do not mind.
Lets say your wife had sex behind your back with the husband while his wife watched instead. Your wife then tells you it was a one time sexual fling with this man and she will not do it again. She also continues to hang out and do things with this husband. She then tells you that you are being unreasonable and that you should continue to be friends with and associate with the husband and the wife.
Would you feelings be any different? Of course not. You would think it is ludicrous to expect to be friends with the husband. Why is it any different that your wife had sex with the wife instead and kissed the husband? Can't you see that there is no difference. Yet, you are expected to accept the relationship and be friends because she had sex with the wife instead of the husband. How absolutlely ridiculous this line of reasoning is. Apparently your wife feels that there should not be any consequences to breaking her marriage vows and sleeping with this woman and you are expected to accept their continue friendship. My friend if you accept this then you are out of your mind. It is your life but I think you know that I am right. I wish you luck.

I advised you not to see this counsellor and I thought you agreed. You should have cancelled the appointment. What he's said is the classic response of a counsellor who's been trained to do individual counselling rather than marriage counselling. He's been trained to validate feelings and be non-directive. In an individual situation this is correct but for effective relationship counselling you need a counsellor who is an advocate for the marriage and can offer techniques that will save your relationship.

Quote...
"But he said it's not for him to decide, but us to decide."

So he's taking a neutral position as regards whether you should stay married. It's because he's trained as an individual counsellor and not on how to save marriages. Ask him how many marriages he's saved. The answer will be that that's not his job.

Quote...
"I said his role in this is to guide our communication though this crisis, not to offer guideance on the issue or pass judgement on the issue or the response to an issue."

That's a bit better than his offering but it's still not good enough. The Harleys offer positive coaching in how to save your marriage. That's what you want and need.

You DO need a counsellor to offer guidance. For example he could say that adultery, whether it's with a man or a woman, is a breach of a solemn vow and a breach of trust and is morally wrong. And continuing the relationship is an ongoing threat to the marriage. This is a statement of the obvious.

Condemning your wife for her behaviour will not make her love you more and requiring her to say she's sorry and beg your forgiveness almost certainly won't work as a strategy for saving the marriage. Another statement of the obvious.

Actually you're not asking for that anyway. You're just asking for her to give up a relationship that's a threat.

Maybe the marriage has been less than perfect and you can accept 50% responsibility for that. But whatever the problems, sex with someone else wasn't the answer and you can't accept any responsibility for her adultery. You might concede that had the opportunity presented itself you could have been the one to stray. We can all be tempted and we all understand temptation.

The aim here is not to apportion blame but to face up to the consequences of actions and address the issues honestly so that you can move forward on a firm foundation.

You need to work on your marriage together with a pro-marriage (not neutral) counsellor. That will mean removing the threats to your marriage but maybe that message is best to come from the counsellor. Try the Harleys. They counsel by phone. They are not the cheapest but they're very efficient and their selling point is that they actually save marriages.

Quite a good selling point when you think about it! The issue then is whether your W actually wants to save the marriage.

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: lovesaved ]</small>

Bryanp/Lovesaved

Thanks again for your continuing interest.

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"I advised you not to see this counsellor and I thought you agreed."

I agreed to seek out another professional and I in the process of doing that. In the mean time, my wife and I have dealt with this counsellor for the last several weeks and I thought it was appropriate to run some of your ideas by him last night. I'll glad that I did get his ideas and then post they for comment. From this exercise I have learned from you that he is using individual conselling techniques that are not very effective for marriage counselling. Again, I agree with you. Now have another question to ask the new counsellor that I will be talking with over the next few days. That question would be " are you willing to give guidance in a pro-marriage fashion and help us remove treats from our relationship?" and from there I will ask "How do you plan to do this?" Once I find a professional that I have some confidence in, I have to sell the idea of changing counsellors to my wife. I sure that she is not going to be to interested in sharing all this stuff with another professional and start from scratch.

Quote
"You need to work on your marriage together with a pro-marriage (not neutral) counsellor. That will mean removing the threats to your marriage but maybe that message is best to come from the counsellor. Try the Harleys. They counsel by phone. They are not the cheapest but they're very efficient and their selling point is that they actually save marriages"

I can appreciate this comment, but I would prefer to seek a better qualified professional in our local area at this point. But your suggestion is food for thought.

Thanks and stay tuned.

OK I understand why you went to the counsellor again, sorry.

If your wife is to agree to change counsellors she'll first have to agree that the present one is unsatisfactory. Don't put this in terms that you don't like his advice. Express gentle concern that he doesn't seem to be giving any advice - just validating what you each feel. Your W wants to continue the relationship - he says OK. You say you want it to end - he says that's OK too. No advice given!

Questions to ask a prospective MC:

1. What are your qualifications?
2. Have you had specific training in marriage counselling as opposed to individual therapy?
3. What proportion of couples who come to you with a marital crisis end up staying married?
4. Are you pro-marriage or neutral?

Your wife should be able to agree to these criteria.

The correct answers are: 1. a degree in psychology, 2. yes, 3. 75-90% and 4. pro-marriage.

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: lovesaved ]</small>

kz,

I have just followed your story. I am sorry I haven't been back to correspond more. I need something... What it is, I am not sure. Things are better with my wife. She is actually giving me loving attention, and it feels like we are dating and in love again. But something is still missing.

I'm flapping around like a fish out of water. My everything was wrapped up in my family with the foundation being my marriage. I need to re-access my life and find a way to not have as much emotionally invested in my marriage?

We had a nasty early Valentine's Day (fighting, sharing our thoughts/feelings, etc), and then a great date in the afternoon. Then Sunday morning, we were fighting again. I told her about my lack of trust, going as far as telling her about an appointment I had with a laywer Wed., a new checking account I opened without her name on it, and a new credit card I applied for without her knowing.

I cancelled the appointment with the lawyer Monday am. I felt so releived that I didn't have to go. But today the doubt is back-- no sex this morning after she worked with her 'friend.'

I feel pretty confident that she is not continuing an affair with this 'friend'. It was an instant gratification thing. I'm not finding myself wanting to look for her car parked at the 'friends' house. But I am still uneasy... Why?

kz,

I did not comment on your situation. Here it is. I hope your wife can see just how much she has hurt you. Until she emphatically sees what her actions have done, she will continue down this defensive road. Try to calmly (even voice) not ever getting emotional tell her your side. It worked for me.

Continued contact is rough. It needs to at least be limited for a while. If just for peace of mind. I know my wife has not stopped the contact all together, but it is not in-my-face like it was. It is also not long phnoe conversations, nor lunches. I also know that her relationship with her 'friend' is strained. It is fading- as all affairs eventually do (As our relationship grows in intensity, the other is fading).

I would suggest you find out what your wife really gets from this friend of hers (emotionally). Can you supply that? Can another friend supply that? All this is assuming your wife couldn't just have sex without some kind of emotional attachment.

I have encouraged another friend of my wife to ask her to lunch & start planning more 'girl-time' during the day (so she doesn't see the other women) It has turned back into a prior good friendship she had with (2) other women. Maybe try something similar (as long as the friend doesn't tell that you instigated it)?

Does she still want you? Can you feel that want? Does she want a divorce? Maybe try an approach like in the "way to turn a divorce 180 degrees" list shown on this site.

Good luck. If she cannot see how much she has hurt you, it may be lost.

Friend

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"I have encouraged another friend of my wife to ask her to lunch & start planning more 'girl-time' during the day (so she doesn't see the other women) It has turned back into a prior good friendship she had with (2) other women. Maybe try something similar (as long as the friend doesn't tell that you instigated it)?"

I did this on Monday Night. I called one of her old friends and asked if she would mind making a little more frequent contact with my wife over the next few days. She said no problem and that she generally knew that we were going through a rough time. I know that I can count on her for support.

"I feel pretty confident that she is not continuing an affair with this 'friend'. It was an instant gratification thing. I'm not finding myself wanting to look for her car parked at the 'friends' house. But I am still uneasy... Why?"

I fell exactly the same way... for me I think that I have been unable to meet my wife's emotional needs for some time and this has resulted in insecurity on my part. And with the uncovering of this "incident", I have become "ultra-insecure".

My wife agreed yesterday that she would end her friendship with A and B. She agreed to this reluctantly, but said that she believed that she had to do it...there is no other choice. The madness has to end now. I feel somewhat relieved now..I guess time will tell...at least she is beginning to show some commitment to me...although it was a reluctant agreement...it's a start. She is very worried that she is going to loose our large circle of friends over this. I am reassuring her that I don't believe this will be the case and that she is a beautiful person with a many great friendships ahead of her. Any other suggestions?

I have talked with several counsellors over the last few days and I beleive that I've identified one better suited to our needs. He has a Doctorate in Psychology, teachs part time at University, has been counselling couples for 15 years, is familiar with Marriage Builders Concepts and he told me that he has used these concepts at times.

He told me that he does not always cast judgement on marriage issues but takes a proactive approach to ensure that couples move ahead when attempting to resolve issues. I explained our current issue of friendship with the neighbors and, although he cautioned against being judgemental and without having talked to my wife, he said that in many cases, resolution for other couples dealing with issues similiar to this one have found closure by ending the friendship and in some instances have moved to a different location.

Realizing that my wife will see changing counsellors at this point as a major step backward and mostly likely prolonging the current issue, I have decided not to push changing counsellors immediately. We have a session scheduled with our current counsellor on Wednesday at which time we would like to firm up our agreement to end the relationship with A and B. I would like to switch counsellors once the current issue is closed for both of us and I think that this point is near. I would like to switch to the new counsellor when we move to our more general issues over the next few weeks.

We have discussed our agreement of "non-friendship with A and B" over the last couple of days and although she agrees that she needs to do this for my well being, she is still reluctant to say that the friendship is over forever. As confusing as this may sound, she has yet to see how ending the friendship is going to help our marriage. She says that the incident happened several months ago and see has gotten past it, she has discussed the incident with A and B and they apologied to one another for letting it happen, and she has spent several months after the incident being friends with A and B and had no interest in having a repeat incident. She says that she is not emotionally connected with A or B. I'm not looking for a lifetime gaurantee here, only a sign of commitment and I am confortable that she has given it to me. I am confident that she will not repeat her incident again, but its going to take a while for the trust to rebuild. I have started to review the basic concepts contained and this web site. I think that we may be able to use some of this stuff.

My friend,

I am so happy for you. Things seem to be going in a direction that works. I will tell you though, that you probably need to have a firm stand on the A/B no contact. My wife has never truely stopped her contact with her 'friend'. She still received text messages & emails from her. They talked often. I am starting to get cold & slightly bitter towards this continuing 'friendship' and while I realize that rationally this is a bad thing, emotionally it is an uncontrollable wall that is being built to keep the open wound from being scratched.

I have caved in many times. I have not told her
that I do not want to do things because they are uncomfortable. My wife is a strong-willed woman. While she can be emotional & needy, she is typically has this 'hard-[censored]' front up that most people find intimidating. I find it annoying & confrontational. I have given in over the course of this last month about her 'friend' many times just like I have about many things over the course of our marriage. After all "If mamma isn't happy, nobody's happy"- Right?

Last night, we had dinner with two couples & went to a local bar for drinks afterwards. Can you guess who one of the couples was? Dinner was fine, but put too much alcohol into anyone with issues & watch the fuse burn- cause it is gonna explode. Well, my wife & her friend still have some kind of issues. Her friend kept text messaging her that she was acting like a *****. I'm honestly tired of the immature, childness crap with this woman. Granted she is young (22), with my wife & I in our early 30's, but enough is enough. I told my wife to get this crap strightened out in the bathroom, because it was ruining the evening.

Anyway, it got fixed, and things were better for about10 minutes. This 'friend' had a camera, and pictures were being taken. A pictures was taken with this friend jumping onto my wife's lap & doing suggestive things with her tongue. I found this mildly upsetting and disrespectful, becaue of what has gone on, but I was willing to not say anything & let it go. But she quickly decided she should jump on my lap & take the same picture. Needless to say my captured expression was not a fond one. She got upset, and I calmly tried to tell her I was not mad, just I think she crossed the line and I was uncomfortable. She got more upset & her & her boyfriend left. The tension was too much, and the party broke up & my wife & I argued in the car for the 7 block ride home.

She blamed me for upsetting her friend, and I told her I did't do anything, and I really don't care if her 'friend' is upset. Mean things were said that sent me on my way to pack & go. I was going to take the kids & leave. The problem came because it was a little before 11:00pm when we got home & our 10yr old was still up & heard arguing, which sent him into a tissy.

What a mess. I didn't leave, we together, comforted the kids, and she went to talk to her 'friend then at 6:00am. I am trying not be mad about this, but the emotional walls I'm putting up are getting to be a burden. I just want.... What?

I have considered moving. I think that may be a good solution-- a new start. The only problem is my kids need their great aunt & uncle. They are like their grandparents on my wife's side & they don't have much time left (10yrs max). My son called this aunt last night & the aunt asked me if my wife was running around on me. I never did anything but put on the happiest face when I went there with the kids over this last month. Just that question made me vomit. This lady practically raised my wife & she was worried about me, not my wife. I told her she needed to talk to my wife.

I'm tired & depressed by life right now. This sucks. I hate what I have allowed my life to become. I don't like my job, I love my house, but it is 100 plus years old and constantly in need of repairs. My cars are just out of warranty, so things are starting to go wrong with them, etc.(this stress list is extremely appreviated). I fix everything, and all the material stuff I can repair- given enough time & allowance for enough annoyance. But I cannot fix this relationship with my wife. I must be trying too hard.

I'm not sure the 'friend' is the problem. It is the lack of trust (on both our parts), the hidden resentments (I'm not sure we either know what they are), the walls we are both building, the feeling of futility, the burden of our children & responsibilities (when it comes to just quitting divorcing & starting over), the...

I'm just tired of psycho-analyzing myself & my marriage. I used to be so closed and controlled emotionally. I wish I could turn back time and make things how they used to be. But, I know the problems that led my wife to the affair would still be there. Ahhhhhh.

I'm frustrated

Hello Friend with Spouse:

Your last message was very sad. It seems your wife has so little respect toward you. You have failed to establish boundaries. You go to dinner with this couple and you watch while the woman friend who previous had sex with her sits on your wife's lap and french kisses her? Would you have
been so accepting if it has been a male lover of hers instead? My guess is probably not and it is exactly the same thing.
The fact that your wife would also allow this to occur in front of you after all of the pain you have been going through says a great deal how little respect and compassion she has for you. If the roles were reversed do you honestly believe that your wife would accept such disdainful behavior? The more passive you are the more disrespectful behavior you will continue to endure. If you do not respect yourself then who will?

Friend with Spouses Lover

I here you. Try to keep positive man. No one can deny that you're not going though a rough time right now but keep prospective...you still have a great life ahead of you and three wonderful kids to mentor and watch develop into adults. It may help you to compartmentalize your issues right now. My wife and I have forced ourselves to deal with the current crisis before moving onto our general concerns. I think that to try to do otherwise would be a mess for us. And I believe that we are near to "closing" the crisis. We then plan to move to a more general, standard counselling approach. Try not to worry too much about the car and house issues...this stuff has been looked after in the past and I'm sure that it will work out for you in the future.

I can hear your torment and I can relate to how your wife wants to keep her friend. My wife has acted the same way, without the drama of jumping into each other's lap though. I think that if "A" had to jump into my lap I would have lost it.

Interesting enough, we also went out to dinner with A and B, as well as another 4 or 5 couples from our group, about 2-weeks after I found out about the incident. And over the course of the six weeks that followed the dinner, my wife and I socialized with A and B maybe 2 or 3 times. Prior to this incident being exposed, we would talk or see A or B everyday.

I even went to a superbowl party with B and a few guys living on our street because rumors were starting to develop on the street that B had an affair with my wife. I went to this party with B to try and put an end to these rumors and protect my wife's reputation. Boy was that a mistake. I came home early from the party...very upset after developing bad vibs about B. I went home and lied down on the couch and wept. My wife thought that I was drunk...but I wasn't...just extremely upset and unable to deal with it.

I couple of days after that I realized that I could not live in this lie...the friendship with A and B had to stop. It's been 2-3 weeks since this realization and my wife and I are working through the "non-friendship" agreement. My wife is concerned the if contact is broken completly, our kids will become "involved" or impacted by this. Our kids are still good friends with A and B's kids. My wife and A still take turns driving the kids back and forth to school and she feels strongly about continuing this while we are living on the street. Any thoughts on this anyone??

By the way, we have also agreed that we are going to move...come the spring, the house is on the market and we're moving to the other side of town.. I told my wife that my spirit left our current home on Dec 8...the day I found out about this "incident" with the neighbors. I have been relucant to put the house on the market because I did'nt know how this was going to pan out. But now the result is obvious. We have to move, or live in continued torment for the rest of our days. I'm not willing to do that.

Good luck and keep posting.

Thank you for the support gents.

I have just read your responses, and I want to correct something. They did not french kiss. The OW just stuck her tongue out and was suggested with it.

Anyway. All day Sat. & today I have been aganizing over this mess. My wife & I talked this morning about her not following through with breaking off the friendship before church. She wouldn't come to church. When the kids & I got back she was gone.

She has given me text messages to not worry (after all that is one of my traits), but I don't know.

I can't back down on this issue. I know her continuing this 'friendship' will drive me crazy. I am already starting to get bitter over this mess.

I guess I will have to wait. she should be home soon. She spent the day talking & writing down her feelings with a friend I trust. We'll see.

Thanks guys

Doubt is the worst of the emotions. It makes me crazy with anxiety, it makes my wife wonder why she did what she did. Will the doubt ever fade?

I did make a stand on the friend issue. She came back. Things are better (for the moment), but for how long?

I think the situation your wife has put you in is sad, but 100% her fault. Perhaps you can invite your wife female friend over for some casual sex and make a video of it.

After a year or so let your wife find the video by a so-called accident.

You can explain to your wife that you were curious about how she performed in bed as well and you made the video so you could occasionaly educate yourself on your performance. You could also explain to her you only had sex with her for 20 minutes one time and occasionally you go watch the video with her husband so he can get off on it, but you really dont get off on it, its just for her husbands enjoyment.

So if everyone wants to be friendly, lets cut through all the BS and be fair!

Sound good?

Of course not, cut out the filthy friends or cut out the wife. You cant have both, welcome to your new life the "Jerry Springer Show".

Friend with Spouses Lover

It's great that your wife has to agreed to cut off the friendship. Given that they work together, I guess that you have no other choice than to accept that they will still have daily contact. I guess that the only other option would be for her to change jobs? Have you discussed this?? With regard to "how long will things remain better?", my experience so far is that moods change by the minute, so enjoy them while they last.

Bog

With regard to your comments, I believe that they are uncalled for. You can look at most situations of infidelity and call them fit for the "Jerry Springer Show" but unfortunately, saying this does not give anybody that is living though the reality of infidelity any insight as to how to cope with it, or how to address the issue or how to recover from it. Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm a Newbie, but don't people post here to give or receive constructive feedback?

With reagard to our situation,
My wife has agreed to end her friendship with A and B. She has called A and told her that the friendship has to stop. Our counselor has asked me to try to develop some faith that my wife can live up to this commitment and that she is putting our marriage first. Time will tell. My wife and I have planned a week of vacation on a beach in the south starting this week. We are both looking forward to a new start. I am ready to develop forgiveness and move on.

I agree with kz650 about Bog's input. I assume it was meant to be satirical but I didn't understand it.

Bryanp/ Friend with Spouses Lover/ Lovesaved

Are you guys still out there?