Hello all,<P>I got back from LA last night. I had called H from LA and asked him to spend some time with me when I got home since we would not see each other for Christmas (he will be with OW). I had also left him a v-message before I left for LA asking him to spend time with me for New Years.<P>H came over last night after I got home and he got home from a business trip. Basically I had asked him on the phone the day before if we could start planning on spending regular time together.<P>I knew I was doomed when he walked into the door. He was standoffish in a major way. He told me he was in-love with the OW (told me this more than once) and had made his choice and was moving on. Told me he can't ever forgive me for the EA(said this more than once). Said he didn't want to spend time with me because it was too confusing for him and put him back "fence sitting" and that had him in a major tailspin and major depression and he was NEVER going back to that. <P>He did tell me that the OW is working hard to make sure he knows he is #1 - especially as she knows that this is the reason he left me. He told me that 3 times. Then, he told me that he didn't want me to think she was changing herself to be what he wanted (why say that out of the blue, unless he thinks it is true???????). I told him I was not going to compete with her for him by out e-mailing and out-love carding her and out-gifting her. I feel if I hadn't made my mark with him in the 12 years we have been together, then I couldn't do it now. I also said I know I can still do alot to blow things up at this point. <P>He said he knew I was commited and motivated and I was a wonderful person who didn't need to change, but still I had given him less than 100% loyalty and he was never going to get over that. (same old [censored]...)<P>I asked what were we going to do then and he said we were going to get a divorce. <P>Next came the lovebusters from me:<P>I told him that the Chinese character for infidelity was the same for opportunity and he had an opportunity for growth here - to get closer to God and improve himself as a man. He said he had grown as a man during this. I said no, he had only "changed underwear" - that he was the same person and having the same approach to life. The only changes he has made were his address and the woman waking up in the bed next to him. <P>I told him I knew in my Heart he is in love with the OW for now, but I didn't have conviction in my heart that she was the "one" nor that this was going to be a long-term relationship. <P>I told him his actions were multi-generational: His father ran out on him, he is running out on me, his youngest son fathered an illegitimate child who is 3 that he has never seen nor supports (WE pay the child support for our grand daughter)and his oldest son is involved with a married woman and trying to break up her family. I told him this was a poor legacy to leave behind and he needs to be the one to stop the cycle and to set the right example for his own children.<P>He said "This conversation has ceased to be useful" and got up and BOLTED to the backdoor. I asked him to stay and open his Christmas gifts. He was mad and said no and he didn't want then and we went outside.<P>We switched cars again. He kissed me and looked at me a long time. I told him that I loved him deeply, was eternally sorry for any pain I ever caused him, that I felt as if I was dying and that the OW would never love him as much as I did. He said "you are probably right" and got in the car and drove off.<P>GUESS WHAT HAPPENED TODAY:<P>He showed up unexpectedly this morning - can I say I was SHOCKED????<P>We shared coffee and he opened his Christmas gifts. He went and put them in the car and we talked a little about us. I apologized for offending him in any way last night. He said I did not offend or upset him at all and that he had thought about everything I had said. He said he did NOT want a divorce. When I asked why not, he said he really didn't know the answer to that question. He said it seemed too final and he wanted to be....and never finished the sentence (wanted to be SURE, maybe???)<P>I said, well if you aren't going to try and we aren't getting a divorce, that leaves things as is and that is limbo for me. He said nothing.<P>I said I still wanted to date him and talk to him on the phone. I told him I enjoyed our date last week very much and the 2 hr. telephone conversation very much, too. I said I missed telling him things and I missed hearing all about his life too, because we know so little of what is going on with each other since we have had no interactions. He said he had enjoyed last week, too.<P>Ok, then I asked him if we could interact through mediated sessions. I re-asked him if the reason he didn't want to spend time with me was because he was afraid he would go back and fence sit and get depressed all over again. He said yes and he couldn't go back there to that depression. So I told him I have a session with Steve Harley tomorrow and would ask him about some mediated sessions to help us figure out how to interact and talk without the pressure on him. Also, I told him since he considered himself "single" now anyway, maybe we could just date without him feeling any pressure of commitment. He said yes for me to talk to Steve and he would consider this.<P>He walked over and kissed me and hugged me and thanked me again for the gifts. (I got none.) We wished each other Merry Christmas and Happy New Years (H is spending BOTH with OW). I reminded him he was still invited here for Christmas, even though he said he wasn't coming. He said he would call me and I said good and he left.<P>OK, so last night I was convinced I was getting divorced and now this.......what to think??????<P>Is this baby-step progress and fear all wrapped into one package???<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Roll Me Away (edited December 22, 1999).]

Hey RMA,<P>what a post !!! How are you today ??<P>How confusing.<P>But, while he is confused, he is not SURE.<P>That has to be good.<P>The fact that he has now said he doesn't want a divorce, isn't that good.???<P>Personally, I'd be in that tailspin too. What does it all mean. My hopes would be sky high (can't help myself).<P>Even though your H is with OW, things are obviously not that great with her. They can't be, otherwise he would have been long gone, completely, from your life. He wouldn't be hanging around, discussing things, discussing feelings, discussing what you had, and what you could have again in the future.<P>I'm sorry I have no words of wisdom for you, and no perfect course of action, but I'm thinking of you.<P>Your situation sounds a little positive, even if only for the fact that he's not considering divorce. That HAS to be good. He doesn't want to cut ties with you completely.<BR>Keep depositing those love units, be yourself, he's remembering what you are, and what you had together. Give him more to remember and think about, and make it good.<BR>(Why the hell can't I do this for myself !!!)<P>take care of you, and big hugs are coming your way<P>Jo

RMA,<P>Maybe it was just being away from you that he fell back in the spell with the ow. Then he spend sometime with you and he knew that you are the right one for him.<P>Just hang in there and keep talking to him. It looks like the lovebusters didn't do any damage.<P>Keep up the contact! Best wishes.<P>God Bless,<P>Bob<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<BR>

I know you are confused I would be to. You are suppose to talk to Steve tomorrow? Maybe he will be able to shed some light on this situation. Just don't get your hopes up too high (I know easier said then done) because his confusion takes you on a rollercoaster ride like non you have seen before. Don't push do more plan A for awhile. Then if he can't let go of Ow go for plan b.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

bonnet,<P>Yes, the good part is that he is not sure and does not want a divorce - TODAY. He and I both agree that our inability to recover is due to his unwillingness or inability to forgive me for the EA over 2 years ago. Stubborn mule....<P>RWD,<P>The most surprising thing was him coming over this morning. The second most surprising thing was him saying he was not offended or upset by the "home truths" I told him last night...or at least home truths from my perspective. Thanks for the encouragement! <P>Diana,<P>Of all people, YOU know I will get my hopes up even though I know I shouldn't. Yes, I talk to Steve in the morning and then have a luncheon. After I get back, I will post my summary from Steve in case anyone else could find it helpful or useful.<P>I suspect Steve will tell me to keep Plan Aing. I am not sure about the "dating" thing - how that fits in here. Maybe it is more like Plan Medic - just being my H's friend right now so he can feel the pressure off of him.<P>How are you today???<P>Roll Me Away<P><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

RMA,<P>I read your post and then I reread your post. I have the feeling that he is very afraid that you will hurt him again. Is worried about the fence sitting as he said but you mentioned that his whole family has been involved with affairs. Do you think the pain of his father leaving, has caused this? <P>It seems from your post that you are very much in the picture and there is hope. It also seems he likes what OW is doing for him and maybe even the trust he has in her, but he is not really in love with her. You are the one his still loves but cannot trust.<P>Your suggestion to talk with Harley was an excellent one. I don't know why but I feel that there is great hope for you in this. Steve Harley obviously gave you some good advice.<P>Have a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year.<P>JL

JustLearning,<P>Here is the story why my H will never forgive anyone who hurts him:<P>His father left his Mom when he was 3. According to my counselor, this is a traumatic time to lose a father. Then, no Dad in the picture for a couple years. MIL then weds "father" #2. #2 never liked children and never interacted with my H or his B and after 1 - 2 years, he left MIL. Another few years with no father in the picture. Then, MIL married "father" #3. They were happily married for 37 years until his death several years ago. My H never allowed himself to bond to fahter #3 for fear he was "temporary", too. <P>My H told me since he had no father figure during the formative years, he made up what he thought a happy couple should be and that was PERFECT.<P>When my H was 15, he got a chnace to meet his real father. H knew him for a couple months and then H went away on a summer program. His natural father was killed in an automobile wreck while my H was away. My H never got over feeling "cheated" that he lost his natural father when he was just beginning to know him.<P>The summation of this is that my H gives his heart and bonds to almost noone. He did to me. He expected us to have a PERFECT relationship. He values loyalty above everything else because he shares the gift of himself with such a few - actually only 4 people in his current life are REALLY close to him. He will not let others get close for fear of abandonment and fear of getting hurt.<P>So, during my EA, he thinks I am going to abandon him and he feels majorly hurt and rejected and that I was disloyal and THIS is why it is so hard for him to forgive me and to forget.<P>My H and I need counselling to help him work through this and trust me again, but up to this point, he is too afraid to try and risk being hurt again. So, you are right on the money with your assessment.<P>In my heart, I know that although he loves the OW right now, it is not the REAL thing. I told him this. If he is leaving me because he feels so rejected and hurt by our relationship, do you think he is going to jump into the next relationship and expose himself and give it his ALL and make himself vulnerable again??? In my opinion, the answer is NO. He will always put himself in a relationship where he feels safe and that he could walk away from it if he really wanted to.<P>Roll Me Away<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>