Question: I like some of the things on the 180 list, but is it ok if I plan dates for us? Plan A says to spend time together but 180 says to not plan dates?

Update: Other than reminding him of our counseling session Thursday and two anxiety attacks I had when I didn't know where H was and discovering this morning that OW called H yesterday on his cell phone (H didn't realize she called and OW didn't leave a message) we have not had any relationship conversations.

And in each of these three instances I kept it brief and simply told him that I get nervous when he's not where I expect him to be and I can't reach him on his cell phone. This morning I simply said, OW called you yesterday on your cell phone. He said, I didn't know. I told him it was while he was at work (he doesn't have access to phones at work unless he's on break). I apologized for looking at incoming calls and he said it's ok. I told him I just don't always know what's real.

So far he's called me four times this morning. One to see how my morning was going, two to ask me some questions about our plans for the week, three to tell me He and Daughter were going for a walk, and four to tell me when they returned from their walk. Overkill? No, it's actually really comforting and I'm going to tell him how much I appreciated his calls when I get home tonight. He's helping me to feel safe. We've had nice chit chat with all of the conversations and talked about our evening plans.

I think I'm doing really good at laying off on conversations about our relationship. I am going to let the counselor lead our next discussion and bring up issues on Thursday. It's actually giving me a nice break from trying to fix everything NOW. To much pressure on me.

We had a nice party Saturday night, I really tried to show off our home and my cooking snack skills for H's work chums. Everyone had a really nice time and it made me glad to see H show off our house and daughter. I think he also might have been able to show off his wife: I was looking good, provided intelligent conversation and witty humor. We all had a good time.

We've snuggled a lot this weekend and he's giving me more random kisses (usually not on the lips).

I think I remember that last passionate kiss and physical flirting he's done with me, Halloween night. We discovered I was pregnant the next day. We have some communication issues to work on, duh, but I think this pregnancy freaked him out and probably encouraged him to indulge in a fantasy.

I read one post where a guy said he despised men who have A's while their wife is pregnant. A's happen for a lot of reasons, and one of the reasons seems to stem from stressful life changing situations. So, I love my husband. I'm sad that he shared his concerns, fears, and then love with OW. I'm betrayed. But he's with me and I'm not alone.

Every crisis creates new opportunities. I hope we are finding our way back together and moving toward a stronger, wiser, and more tender and fun marriage.

well SAA says that you should let each otehr know where you are 24 hours a day and how to contact you, another thing is to actually call many times a day just to talk, the mroe i read SAA the easier it becomes......
good luck LOY
my prayers are with you
cliff

I like some of the things on the 180 list, but is it ok if I plan dates for us? Plan A says to spend time together but 180 says to not plan dates?
If you are doing the 180, you should be following Divorcebusting (which is not the same as Marriage Builders). And even Divorcebusting does not say that dates should not be planned. It simply says if you are doing something and not getting results (or getting negative results) then you should do the opposite.

If you are doing Plan A, you should be following "Surviving An Affair", not the "180 list".

Chris, thanks. I keep seeing people say "Do a Plan A and stick to the 180 on posts." I'll try to remember that 180 is for divorce busting.

I keep seeing people say "Do a Plan A and stick to the 180 on posts."
Yeah, that kind of irks me also <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , especially with new people who are not very familiar with either plan. Then they end up doing it wrong an <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> d possibly making a further mess of things.
And the "list" is not a "checklist" of things which SHOULD be done, but a list of POSSIBLE things to be done.

((Loy)) keep posting and sharing your strength. I'm brand spankin new, and have found help in your walk!

Vivian

Last night H made us dinner and we just chatted. As a part of my plan A I've been trying to let him know when I appreciate things and do little things to make his day easier. Well, H has started doing them back. He actually made the bed yesterday and thanked me for doing some little things for him.

The three of us (our daughter, now known as Dee (D stands for divorce on this site, right?)) were playing on the floor and just being together when I could see H tear up. I asked him if he was OK and he said yeah. I kissed his cheek and asked him if he'd like some alone time? I told him I would put Dee to bed and give him some time alone. I think he really appreciated that. I gave him about an hour and a half because after Dee was in bed I exercised and took a bath. Then H taught me how to play cribbage. I like the game and asked if we could play again soon so I don't forget the rules.

Today H will be working all night so I went home for lunch. Pizza. I haven't talked about our relationship since last Wednesday, but I asked him some questions today. This is what I found out: he feels like we're more of a family, becoming more comfortable around me, and likes the time we spend together.

I told him: I understand it must be hard for him knowing that OW called Sunday. From what I've read on the Boards at MB WS obsess about if the OP loves them still, why did they try and call, is the other person waiting for them...etc. (He nodded). I know he probably doesn't want to talk to me about that stuff, but there are other things besides his feelings that he confided to OW about - such as how he felt about our marriage, what is love, and his hopes and fears.

I told him I would like him to have those conversations he had with OW with me. ******When he said he didn't know what he would do if OW contacted him I told him I would consider any contact not shared with me as a continuation of the affair.****** He said that's fair.

I shared with him my pregnancy theory. The day before we found out he was all cuddly and touch feely, the next day we were at a party and he was sitting on the floor ignoring almost everyone staring into space. BAM. Also, we just moved into our new home two days before I found out I was pregnant. These are two huge life stresses that hit us at the same time. ** I think H really wants to think A happened simply because he fell in love with an amazing woman, but he was vulnerable to an A for other reasons nothing to do with her. I didn't follow this point to its logical conclusion, but I hope the seed is planted and will develop later.... Damn fog.

I also told him that I never learned how to work with him on stressful issues; i.e. bills and sex. I didn't help the situation. (Although I began busting my [censored] for our relationship in early December, even made us fill out EN's questionnaire, but he was already warming up to the idea that he was in love with OW and not me.)
Anyway, our conversation was actually short (shorter than this post) and at the end of it he said that it was a good conversation - he felt very comfortable.

Plan A is kicking butt. I'm meeting the EN's he'll let me, I'm backing off conversations (one a week), giving him some alone, exercising for myself, and planning fun evenings for family and us.

Calling for support…..down today. I asked WH last night if he's been praying and what's his relationship with God right now? WH hasn't been praying too much, feels guilty. I told him that praying is really helping me and mentioned, "There are things that I hope for but I feel that I shouldn't pray for because they are selfish and I feel guilty asking for them. So, if I'm uncomfortable praying for them, maybe those are things I should let go." A little later on I told him I love him, he said "I know.”

I am fighting to not tell my mother about this. I need to avoid being around her alone. It's just so hard knowing that she could provide me with all of this comfort and support but I don't want her to not love WH. I want her to respect him, as my H. I am so glad there is this board.

Don't you just hate it when a thought pops into your head like, "he told me he went to a bar and drank alone because he was depressed," and now this looks like this is a direct lie not an omission. What are the chances he was with her? High. So is it really worth it to bring this up?

Putting the pieces together sucks, but sometimes the dots line up and all of a sudden you are facing a truth that you weren't looking for at all. I'm afraid that this is what will happen regarding the type of affair he had. That all of a sudden the information will line up and I'll know it was a PA - not because H was being honest with me, but because his lies will inadvertently reveal them to me.

Saw a picture of them together looking lovingly into each other’s eyes. Sure it was a publicity shot for a project they were working on, it was on the internet so it's not like he's keeping it around the house. Wait, he might have a picture of them in his portfolio.... I’ll check on that....

Right now for me to implement plan A means I have to avoid him. We have a date tonight. Whoopee. I'll be better by then.

On the plus side, last night he started rubbing my waist. Rubbing...well, at least our physical contact repertoire is expanding.

yes i know how all of a sudden things seem so clear amd BAM...the mind can be slow sometimes.... or is it just wishful thinking on our parts?? ignorance is bliss

Loy

You don't have to avoid him, you just need to pick and choose CAREFULLY when to have relationship talks. They don't need to occur hourly, or even daily. Keep filling his EN's, and just be patient with being together. Plan A does work, and you know it is. We BS's want instant gratification, but we have to learn that TIME is on our side as long as the WS is with US, and we are meeting EN's that we are allowed to, using your words there!

Try to make it a game of emotional detachment. When fog speak occurs, ignore it, or respond with love rather than anger. It will bewilder the WS when you do this, and blow off a bit of fog. You are making a difference. Just avoid any negative action on your part. Plan A will get you where you are going.

Stay strong!

SD

Rollercoaster update:

Thursday: Went to Marriage Counselor, had very engaging conversation after for two hours.

Thursday evening/ Friday morning 1:15 a.m.: Woke up and H had not come home yet from work. Waiting for 20 minutes and called him 4 times on his cell. Packed up our daughter, got in the car and started driving to where I thought he might be. Found him at 2:10 a.m. parked in a car with OW. She kept on gesturing to me that they were just talking (I really don't like her). H got out of the car (after squeezing her knee), OW drove away after a few minutes and then H and I drove home. I followed him home. While he had told her that a relationship between them would never work and that he loved me, he also said that he was in love with her and they shared a kiss. I think it was like a peck. I told H that anytime he told another woman he loved her, he was betraying our marriage. He said that he was going to tell me about meeting up with her when he got home. He had called her, figuring that after our MC meeting he was ready to give her a firm goodbye and really close the book. Of course, when he met with her he became confused and told her that it was over and that he loved her. So I'm sure everything is really clear to her...

Anyway, at the end of our conversation I said that I cannot do this anymore without support. If we weren't going to go to our parents we needed to go to our pastor (a man we both respect) and have him help us save our marriage. H agreed on the spot and called our pastor at 8:30 a.m. Our pastor met with us Friday for two hours. H said that I was the best thing that's ever happened to him.
Saturday H met alone with the pastor for 2 1/2 hours. When H got home on Saturday he apologized, said that this is all his fault, he was wrong and is ashamed of how he's been behaving and all that he's risked. He said that he's been selfish and hasn't been caring for his family. Also, he wants to change. He knows I'm going to become angry at him (as our recovery progresses), but that's OK. He knows there is a lot of hard work ahead to repair the damage that he's done, but that he's not afraid. What's right and wrong is becoming clearer to him. He hasn't been acting like himself for months and he wants to be a man that he and our family will respect.

WOW.

Also, there was a little love.

We are meeting with our pastor Tuesday for an hour and H will meet with him alone as well. Not sure how often we are going to meet with our pastor, but it's so nice working with someone who not only is helping us fight for our marriage, but also cares about our individual character and religious values. The marriage counselor was more interested in helping us identify our feelings and letting our feelings be our guiding force.

The men and women I respect are guided by their values. You do what's right regardless of how hard it may be or how tempting it is to hide.

As soon as an individual starts justifying their actions on feelings first rather than their values, the ability to act on what's right and wrong is FOGGED. Aren't we supposed to be true to our feelings and explore them to completely know ourselves? NO. Because feelings aren't consistent with beliefs and therefore not a reliable guide for developing character and becoming a strong man/woman.

Very happy with these major developments.

LOY i am so happy for you that it is finally going forward. good luck with your pastor.
my prayers are with you,
cliff

I would like to e-mail her information on this site about "The Lovers Perspective on Infidelity."

Where is that? I can't find that on the site anywhere.

Bat:

I've already read the lover's perspective thing. My goal is to become completely indifferent to the OW. I don't need to gain any insight into the OP's point of view to recover my marriage. I don't want to know her any better.

Loy

It's great to see that you've progressed so well. Plan A is amazing, isn't it.

Please keep up posted on how things are going. Your strength is contagious, and has helped others who have read your posts. Including me.

It's also nice to see progress and good things posted, as opposed to "OMG, here's another new one going though hell", just like we did!

Always wishing the best for you!
SD

45 days since DDay. 18 days since last contact. (H said he was reaffirming NC - he initiated the in person conversation behind my back but was going to tell me about it after. Instead I caught them talking in a car at 2 a.m.)

In the last 17 days we've started working with our pastor and have had 3 counseling sessions together and WH has had two or three alone.

An issue that continues to come up is a NC letter. I want us to resolve this issue by tomorrow and make a decision together and not continue to drag it on. The longer it's dragged out, the more we have to think about OW.

WH feels that he's already established NC and a letter would be breaking it. Well, the NC was a meeting behind my back, in which he shared how wrong their relationship was but that he still loved her. WH explained to her that the chance of their relationship actually working was almost impossible. He told her that he wanted our marriage work, and then I show up and break up their no contact meeting revealing how little our marriage is unified.

I think our letter would be really short to OW, one sentence, letting her know we are working together to rebuild our marriage. Our pastor would review and approve the letter before we sent it. I don't know how OP's work, but since he said he loved her, gave her a peck, squeezed her knee and revealed how conflicted he was, my bet is that this little lady could be holding out hope.

I imagine there are three possible reactions for the OW. 1. She's moved on and doesn't care, 2. She's holding out hope for their relationship and the letter will encourage her to get over it, 3. She calls and tries to play the righteous card - indignant that we don't trust her commitment to NC. I'm leaving out the fatal attraction aspect because we don't have a bunny.

Of course, it's been 18 days and it seems the longer we go without sending a NC letter, the more obsolete it becomes. I think WH is really afraid that a letter would encourage OW to make contact. If OW makes contact after our letter, I think it will just emphasize how selfish she really is.

****
On another note, Saturday WH and I fixed up our front porch and read the newspaper, drank coffee, and played with our daughter all morning long. I have these chalkboard surface mugs and wrote inside jokes from our date the previous night on them. This made WH sad, because he's now noticing all of the little things I do to make our life special and that he hasn't been doing a lot.

During daughter's nap, WH and I talked about our marriage. Actually, WH talked about how he's doing. He feels so guilty. He sees all the damage he's inflicted on our dreams and plans for the future, how much he's hurt me and our family. I told him our dreams haven't ended, we're just on a different path.

We talked about our physical relationship and that I think he has to work to hold himself back. Instead of nurturing his loving instincts, he pushes them down, i.e., rather than acting on the thought to kiss me he mulls it over until the moment passes. I told him that other men see me as a woman and he shouldn't try to turn me into something else.

We also talked about the importance of investing and nurturing a relationship to build and grow love. We used the parent/ child relationship as an analogy. Cause, kids are hard work but the more you are invested in their lives, the more you receive.

Also, he mentioned how hard it is for him sometimes when we are around friends and family. He feels like we're living a lie right now because everyone thinks we are such a happy and perfect family. I wanted to tell him that our family isn't the lie - the A was the lie, but I didn't. Instead, I told him that our love is true and good, just because we're hurting doesn't make our marriage false. Every marriage and family has their own unique crisis' and this is ours. This can prepare and strengthen us for the future, as long as we face the challenge.

Late Saturday night I initiated SF and it was actually loving this time rather than a task. At least, I felt loved.
***
Retroville (SP?) weekend is coming up in a couple of weeks. I'm excited. The priest who wrote, "Courage to Love - When your Marriage Hurts" will be there.

My due date might be moving up cause I'm measuring 4 weeks ahead of schedule and that's a big discrepancy when you haven't even started the baby room.

Loy,
I just read your thread for the first time. You've done a fantastic job so far Plan Aing.

It sounds as though you and your H disagree on whether a NC letter should go out. Your H says by doing so would break NC and you feel otherwise.

IMHO only, if I were in your situation I would want my W to send a NC letter. Why? Several reasons.

1) the NC letter is the way to go not the in person last meetings. The in person meetings either fail or they turn into a romaticized memory. With a NC letter than can be no kind words, no knee patting, no last kisses, no "I'll always think of you's."
2) it sounds as though you need the NC letter. This alone should be reason enough for your H to do it.
3) you weren't in a position to witness or hear everything that was said at the "last meetings" Was it clearly stated that the A was a mistake? Was it clearly stated that your H loves his W and family? Was it clearly stated that the A was the most selfish thing that your H has done? Was it clearly stated that your H will not have fond memories of the A? IMHO he shouldn't even say, "have a good life." Was he truely clear that it's over or did he just say that he owes it to you to try and work on the M? This statement leaves the door ajar.
4) IMHO the NC letter is a symbol of finality. Once sent it will be even harder for your H to have a weak moment.

If you were 6 months past DDay, I might offer a different opinion but you are just 30 days in and even less if you count the second good-bye meeting at 3:00am.

I can't remember; is the OW married?

cwmac

The OW is 24 and single.

I called WH from work and told him that we needed to address the letter issue tonight so we can have closure. I will use your points in our discussion. Thanks.

Loy

I, too, would recommend the NC letter. In my case, I didn't, and I surely wish I had. The very fact that it is "signed off" on by WS is a breakthrough unto itself.

You have done so well. You have been incredibly strong through all of this, and you deserve to find a reconnection with your H and to survive and improve your marriage. I sensed your strength when you first posted, and felt very positive about your chances.

Remember, you are still on a rollercoaster, just not the same one as when the DDay mess was in full throttle. The recovery coaster has fewer and less dramatic dips, but there are still some that will "shake you" a bit. There will be triggers for both of you that will need special attention.

But you have done so well. Your love brought you the strength to survive this ordeal. And as I said in an earlier post, you have given others the strength to carry on in their own struggles.

God Bless

SD

The letter was sent yesterday. Although I read the letter, WH sent it before I got home from work. So I have to trust him that the letter was actually sent because I wasn't there to witness it. I think WH has minimized the extent of trust lost and was surprized at how uncomfortable his mailing the letter alone made me. I asked him where he got the stamp for the letter and he said my mom (we are out of stamps at our house). At least now I can check out a part of the story.

LOL the letter was written on a thank you card. Of course, we cut the card in half and just used the blank side.