I have cell phone bills that show he calls M-F three times a day for at least last month. He left a very sweet message on her voice mail during lunch today. I have placed a voice recorder in her car - I'll check it tonight!
He is married calling my wife 3 times a day - sometimes even on weekends when I am away. She wrote a note to herself claimimg how she was writing with a pen given to her a man she is passionately involved with. The man is married and has a 12 year old child - this is HIM. She also wrote things like great friend, great lover, great father, could have had sex, could be having sex - in the last few months (because of her attitude towards me) that ain't me. I know I have contributed to our marriage issues. What evidence do I need. I tend to like absolute proof - but is that required???

Yes absolute proof is required. Otherwise they explain it away. My H denied and denied, even with hotel bills. When I caught them in bed, he stopped denying it.

Nope, absolute proof is not required. At least not for me. The cell phone records were all that I needed. He would only admit to there being someone else, but didn't elaborate on the relationship, but I knew. I acted and talked as if I knew the affair to be true. At least he had the decency to never deny it and that was my proof even more.

apache...

Even if you have video tape as proof, please, for your own sake, don't rush off in a fit of anger, shock, sorrow, or any other emotion to confront.

Read and study this site, and learn HOW to confront, without damaging your chances to save your marriage.

It has been said that your instincts will tell you the WRONG things to do 99% of the time, and having been there, I can tell you that's true.

You need to do your homework, even to the point of reading Surviving an Affair, available at most of your larger bookstores.

If you fly into a rage, you will do more damage than you can imagine, if you are looking for a recovery process with fewer roadblocks.

Prepare yourself for the confrontation, as if you were preparing for college finals, and your efforts will be far more rewarding, both long and short term.

PS: Whatever you may capture on that recorder will be very difficult to hold in while you prepare.

Good luck

That's my point, and maybe I just don't get it! Where do I find more info on how to confront?? If she denies it again - it will be the fourth time in six months. She has told me that if I have her followed our marriage is over - last time she told me , then fine lets just get a divorce - you win!! I have been working Plan A for only two weeks and she just wants me to be a friend - she will not go to a counselor - I am either a friend or we get a divorce (in her mind). I don't want a divorce - I want to heal US and move on with a better understanding of each other and a better life - after we deal with this!

What are you going to do differently with "proof"?

Just simply tell her you know what is going on. You don't need to explain it to her, you don't need to show her anything or tell her how you got it.

She has told me that if I have her followed our marriage is over
That in itself should tell you a bunch. If she had nothing to hide, she would hide nothing. That is not something one says in a "healthy" marriage.

Read the links below.
Call MB and get an appt.

I wonder if maybe my problem is patience. I have always considered my self an "action" guy and with 70% of the info (facts), and some gut feelings I can get a pretty good "lay-of-the land" and come up with a plan. If I confront her again with this new info - and she denies it - what do I do? Go right to plan B???

When I suspected, I immediately went into Plan A, found an MC, and signed up for Retrouvaille. If FWS refused to go to MC or Retrouvaille, M would have been over.

You already confronted. You don't need to do that again. Act and talk as if she is in an affair. Now, what do you do? What is your plan of action? Plan A is to end the affair. That is where you need to be. And act and talk as if the affair is ongoing. Don't let her off the hook.

If she doesn't like it, then tell her that she is the one that has to prove there is nothing going on. Can she account for her time? She will have to stop talking to this other person. Talking to someone your partner does not know is not part of a good marriage.

But if she does not want to work on the marriage, there is Plan B. No one wants to go to Plan B, but it is there for a reason. A BS cannot Plan A forever -- that will kill all of the love you have for your wife. Plan B is to protect yourself. When your wife decides to return to the marriage, she will have something to come back to.

Only you can decide how long you can Plan A for. Do a good Plan A, even if it's just for another week, then go dark.

I have my first scheduled appointment with a local counselor next Thursday. I can wait at least another week ( unless what I find on the recorder is just too much proof). There may not be anything on the recorder. I guess what I am trying to do is protect my wife from herself - there goes the "Father Figure" role - in full swing. I am always waiting for something to prove me wrong - to tell me that my gut is wrong. I can fly a helicopter in the middle of the desert when it is pitch black, but I cannot figure out what my wife is doing and thinking - I'm really frustrated!

Apache - Finally we have someone that can fly!

Here is post by Amy Maree

As quoted in one of my books, I have to fly using my instrument panel. Meaning, I can't see what is going on, it is dark and stormy, and the only way I can get where I want to go is to watch my instruments (stick to my plan, read my books, make myself happy) and not concentrate on what is going on outside the airplane, because it is confusing and disorienting and will cause me to crash if I focus on it. Does that make any sense?

Now you can understand this. The rest of us just imagine it. Marriagebuilders right now is your instrument panel. Plan A is where you should stay for several months. It will not feel like the right thing to do, but it is.

You cannot "protect" your wife from herself. You can protect yourself from who you might become if you don't prepare yourself for additional confrontations. You need to take care of you, because you emotions are going to be a load to handle as you learn more of what's going on. Often you will not get the "whole load", rather you'll get bits and pieces.

Many wayward spouses will deny till their dying breath. They are in a "fog" and nothing they say or do while in this fog, is from the person you KNOW lives in her body.

You need to understand Harley's theory of rebuilding, and protect yourself from doing things that are considered LoveBusters (LB), making Disrespectful Judgement, and otherwise making things worse.

If you think you may hear something on the recorder you cannot handle, don't listen to it until you understand more about what YOU NEED TO DO.

It seems pretty obvious that something is up, as your gut instinct is normally correct. So prepare for the long, and very intense journey of the Marriage Builders philosopy of recovering. It is not for wimps. It will be one of the hardest things you will have ever had to do. And you will have to do things that are a complete 180 from what you "feel" like doing.

Learn how to expose the affair, as secrecy is where they flourish. Learn how to deal with your WS if she remains in denial. Learn how to deal with the "fog". Learn how to deal with her if you are lucky enough for her to fess up, throw it all on the table, and break down and ask for forgiveness and tell you she will be yours forever. Learn how to deal with assisting with a No Contact letter and being there when it's sent. Learn how to deal with a person suffering from withdrawal, and how affairs are like drug addictions, needing special care and consideration.

You can never be too prepared for going through this, but you can certainly be ill prepared. Avoid that mistake!!!

Best wishes

I know you're right - deep down I know that. I live by "Plan your flight - Fly your plan" because it avoids having to display your expert "flying skills" (which I don't presently have in this arena) by using your expert judgement and careful planning. I know my emotions are an attempt to fly by "the seat of my pants" in the face of what is a "No visibility" environment. Flying by the seat of your pants is very, very dangerous when you cannot see what's outside. What do I owe you for that frying pan upside my head??

The damn digital recorder didn't record anything - that's the second day in a row - I think it's faulty when voice activated is on - got a mini tape recorder to try. We'll see.

I still don't get why she feels guilty about our sexual encounter the other night - she stopped me right in the middle and said " I can't do this - I'm so confused". In the beginning she was really into (more than ever before) and that was turning me on even more - then she just stopped. Says she just wants a companion right now until she is ready to move further. That never came up during the Christmas holidays when we had sex 4 times in 2 days. By the way, 3 days after that she went to Las Vegas with her man-hating girlfriends for a week - while I was at home on vacation.
She won't even let me give her a really good, passionate kiss on the mouth these days. Last time I tried, it made her cry. What's all this mean??

What does it mean? Well my dear, it means guilt. She is terribly guilty. She also must still care for you quite a bit, or deceiving you wouldn't bother her so much.
Your story makes me really sad. My husband is also in the military and gone quite a bit. I might have a little bit of insight as to what happened while you were gone. A wife is left at home alone dealing with all of the day to day problems by herself and is feeling lonely. She has to create a life without you for a while. She starts to depend on her freinds to give her support and companionship. For me, support and companionship comes from my female freinds, but obviously your wife has found it in a male. He is there for her, giving her the things that you did when you were home. I think that gathering evidence and letting her know that you are aware of what is going on is very important. If you can't get proof positive, then bluff. She does not need to know exactly what you have. The car recorder is a good idea. Look at her cell phone bill, see if she calls him first thing in the morning on the way to work. If she does, you could set it to record and put it in her car right before she leaves. That should work better than the voice activation. I have used one of these dealing with H's XW and had trouble when it was on voice activation. One thing that helps if you do want to use voice activation is sensitive microphone. I think that sometimes people just don't talk loud enough to set it to recording.
I can't really help with the MB stuff as I have never used their methods, they seem to work really well though. Don't neglect to use your MB plans once you have studied them and are instrument rated-LOL.
Good luck

Well - I have been doing Plan A for a couple of weeks. Nothing has changed. Before I found MB, I was doing something along the lines of Plan A on my own (Since SEP 03) and that has not worked. I can no longer stand by and feel so much pain. I feel I am becomong an enabler. After seeing a counselor and my chaplain, I have decided to go to plan B. Her father knows and says he will keep our conversations just between us, because she has already cut her mother off. I hate doing this to the woman I love and adore. We may be able to have a future, but I can't be hurt anymore. Here is the latest email from this morning. Nice way to start the day huh! By the way the kids she is talking about are high school students.


Let me begin by saying that I am holding back a great deal of frustration and downright anger right now. I have that ugly furrow in my brow and I know I will consciously have to try not to be short-tempered with my kids today. Let me spell some things out for you in "plain English."

1. You are acting like Steve Wilkerson.

2. You are NOT listening to me.

3. You already have your mind made up that I am involved with another man and you can't get that out of your head. You have lost the real focus of what this relationship breakdown is all about and have determined that your current focus must be "affair-proofing" this marriage. WRONG!

4. You are smothering me.

5. I cannot breathe.

6. I want space to breathe. You said you would give it to me. You changed your mind. Now I am resentful. I need to live apart from you if there is ANY chance of EVER repairing our relationship. I told you that I NEED TO KNOW THAT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU AGAIN!!!!!!! You do not listen to me!!!!!!

7. With every passing day I become increasingly resolved to leave this relationship.

8. I tell you EXACTLY what I want: friendship and its accompanying companionship, but that's not enough for you!! In spite of what you say, your actions and follow-up remarks show it's not enough.


9. I am finding it hard to concentrate on my work because of this stuff. I already have my own motivational issues and this new stuff isn't helping. I can't concentrate on or find much motivation to pursue a new job. I can't muster the stamina to go to the gym. I am feeling trapped, smothered, stuck, and buried by my current situation.

10.I do not have romantic or sexual feelings for you.

11. You have not even been my friend for a year and a half, and yet you act like friendship is not the appropriate place to begin rebuilding.

12. I'm so angry I don't even want to rebuild this relationship. I want to end it.

13. You MUST go to a counselor. This is without question. You must have a professional help you sort through these intense emotions. I am too wrapped up in their causes to be an effective helpmate.

14. I feel overwhelmed and pressured to feel things I don't feel when you now shower me with notes, phone calls, visits, etc. Back off! I can't breathe.

15. The bottom line, as I have already explained in "plain English," is work on yourself to make a more satisfying life for yourself. MAYBE a by-product will be rekindling a romance with me. MAYBE not. You were lucky to capture my heart the first time.

apache....

You have just received yet another letter written in "fog speak". This is so much like what other BS hear in one form or another. This is NOT the woman you married. This is a W who is trying to "protect" both your feelings and hers, by not giving you the truth so as not to hurt your feeling, and, so she doesn't have to face her own feelings of guilt, sadness, remorse, whatever.

It sounds as if you may have some issues of your own, but it's good that you are in counseling to deal with those issues. It seems that you should continue to do so.

Have you fully exposed the affair? If not, you have been enabling it. Do you know who the OM is? Is he married? Have you told his wife? Have you exposed it to close family members, hers and yours, that may be allies in helping her end the A? It it a co-worker? Have you told her boss? Does she attend church regularly? Have you told your pastor? I think you should re-read about exposing the A, and come up with a plan of action to do so. Will she get really pissed? Probably so, but the first thing that has to happen is ending the affair, and exposing it will be a huge step in that direction.

Will she leave if you do? Maybe so, but going to Plan B will leave you apart anyway. This will give you additional time to Plan A.

I would stay with Plan A for a while, yet make sure you are executing it as perfectly as possible. Maybe there are some clues in her foggy letter to you that may be helpful. You can be there for her, be loving and still back off a bit so as not to smother her. DO NOT make yourself appear to be NEEDY. Major turn off for her now. Make yourself available, supportive, lovable, independent, and self sufficient. But not needy.

Remember, Plan B is designed to follow a well executed Plan A.

You mentioned you were a take action guy, and don't have much patience. Well, you need more patience and understanding now, than you've ever needed in your life.

Don't give up !!

Well, last night we talked for 3 hours after I confronted her with the affair and info. She said that while I was deployed she had a support group of women and a couple of married men she worked with. She said in the past she did not even talk to other men on a personal basis, but did strike up a friendship with this man. She said that she let him in closer than she normally would have, and that was because I wasn't there. She said he is married and has a wife that he loves and a daughter.

She said she is having difficulty dealing with her feelings about this man because of their friendship, and that because she felt I abandoned her during the deployment, she is having trouble letting me fill those needs. She said meeting him showed her that there are other people (men) out there that value her and who she is. I know I did not meet many of her needs before I left and while I was gone - so her trust in me is lacking.

I think she is still very protective of whatever type of relationship she is having with him - it may not be sexual - it may be that she is feeling guilty about having another man so close. Either way, it is getting between us getting better.

I told her what info I had, and asked her about the cell phone bills which were always thrown away after they were paid. I told her I think she is trying to hide something. Some questions she did not answer/would not answer like: have you ever kissed this man?

I know he can have a wife he loves, but still be having an affair also. If I call this man's wife, would that not destoy any trust left between me and my wife?? My wife does not trust many people - especially men - her issue. I am wondering if I just continue Plan A and see what happens? She still wants her space - I think- so not sure what is going on there.

I do not want to move out and my counselors say I should not. I am going to counseling - but right now she will not go. She was shocked that I had any info on the man, the cell phone, etc. She knows I am watching. Is that enough to bring any possible affair into the light. Her father knows what I've discovered as well.

apache

Please re-read my previous post. Many of the question you asked are anwered there.

Have you read Surviving an Affair?

That is the plan that you should put your trust in, and carry out with military precision.

Regarding contacting the OM's wife.... don't you think she has a right to know? Don't you think she might keep a closer eye on his activities? Don't you think she has the right to make choices for herself based on all the facts of her life, that she may be unaware of now?

Get the book, read it, understand it, and proceed with Plan A. Your lines of communication seem to be open with WW, and that is really a positive. Talk to her about a NC letter. It is an important part of the process. Continue reading other posts here to see how in many cases it works, and some of the perils it involves, and how to deal with them.

The fog will last for some time, and will be stronger than ever at times. The battle to keep those "feelings" receive from the OM are addictive and take time to subside once NC is achieved.

You situation seems to have many positives going for it. Marriage counseling/coaching would be a very good step for you/both to take. I suspect you may find out more about her relationship in coming days/weeks, and you will have more painful information to absorb and deal with. It's all about the perceived "protection" I wrote of in the previous post. Make sure you Plan A during all of this "discovery" and make her feel safe.

Stay strong

She asked me last night if I had called the OM cell phone or house (although she has never admitted to him being her lover/or the OM. She wanted to know how I got his name (even though she had mentioned it in the past as a friend who was helping her with her resume). She still thinks I am having her followed (which I am not). She wanted to know if I knew where he lived. Also, she noticed that my digital camera has been missing from the house and wanted to know why. She now only sleeps on the sofa and will get in the bed with me for a couple of hours early in the morning. I think she thinks I am satisfied with her answers, but I really am not. Do you think she is now afraid of what I know and this will cause her to end the affair, if there is one???

apache...

Here is a link to an online spy store where you can get voice activated recorder for your home land line.

http://www.thespystore.com/telephonerecorder-page1.htm

It may well be that you need more proof. If you suspect there is computer contact, do a search under "key logger" and you will find software that will allow you to all that's done on the computer.

Can you access her cell phone records online... If she's not set up an online account, you can do it yourself with the phone vendors account number and the last 4 digits of her SS#.

Take a day off of work, trade cars with a friend, and play spy for a day when she might have some time she's not accounting for.

Are you in marriage counseling? If not, you should be. Together, if possible. Some of the "disclosure" you are hoping for may be extracted by the counselor.

Don't divulge what you learn without being fully prepared to do so. Don't divulge how you learn what you learn. You may need to learn more, that you haven't even thought of.

Get Surviving an Affair, and read it and understand it. You are still flying by the seat of your pants, and not creating and enacting a plan. Don't continue to be reactive to what your wife says/does. Be proactive, and do what you need to do. Prepare yourself. It doesn't matter so much what she thinks right now, it matters what you think.

If/when you get proof positive, then it's time to contact the OM's spouse. But there are ways to do that, and ways not to. Read the book!!!

Be well informed, make a good plan, execute it well.