Hello. Please bear with me. It took a lot to get here. I confronted husband about the A Jan. 22 and have been lurking the board for a week. Here goes: I went to the doctor for what I thought was a yeast infection in December and found out I had an STD. I sit in the office stunned and betrayed. I decided I want him to confess instead of presenting the evidence. Weeks go by and he can't figure out why I am cold and distant. January 22, I put my 2 year old to bed and confront him. I state I know he has been cheating and have proof. If he was willing to confess everything I was willing to give him a second chance. He denies the affair for 2 hours. I become frustrated and provide evidence. This is the only way he confessed. I felt like the marriage wasn't worth saving if he couldn't confess on his own, so I went to sleep in a separate room.

The next morning I make him call the OW and let her know it's over. I hear her ask "how does she know?" I was fuming! I asked to speak to her and stated I was calling after she went to work to tell her husband. She refused to tell him. She states the affair started in mid-September and ended in first week of December. My H and OW are co-workers She also admits she initiated the affair, but it takes 2. My H confirmed the dates. Her husband is (was) my husband's friend. True to my word, I let the OWH know he needs to be tested for STDs and he states he had caught her found out about another affair the day before we called. The OWH states she was previously treated for genital warts in the summer. The marriage was headed downhill for other affairs on her part.

Now I want details. I want to know what position, how many times, where, ... I am completely frustrated and it has almost been a month since I confronted H. He has continued to lie about small details. He has begged for forgiveness and feels that the details will hurt me. Well the A hurt me, but he did that for almost 3 months. I look at him and feel disgusted, betrayed, angry, and sad. What am I supposed to do? He wants to work on the marriage, but won't tell me any details. She provided all the details (Gladly). She called an apologized and wanted to make things right with me (Oh yea, like I really believe her.)

He is trying so hard to make things right, but I need to understand why. I thought we were happy. We were considering having a second child, I started my own business, and we just built a house. I ordered SAA for my own sanity, but don't know which way to turn. I need him to switch jobs, change shifts, tell her it meant nothing. The OWH came over and discussed the situation with him. He was able to resolve things because he is leaving the OW. I am still here in limbo trying to decide is it worth it. Every night he is telling me he'll do anything to save us and I feel like strangling him. We have been married for 10 years, have a 2 year old, and I thought we were at least friends. I am thankful I found this board and apologize for such a lengthy post. This is not going away by itself and I need resolution. I had my doctor perform a full STD panel and everything came back negative. I will go back for another HIV test in 6 months. This is not what I signed up for.

First of all, welcome here. You've come to the right place and will find yourself among friends.

I too thought I had a good marriage but my W had an EA and I had an offer of a PA which didn't happen, but only through lack of opportunity. Then I found this site and see what a good marriage should be.

I'll comment on your last paragraph.

Quote...
"He is trying so hard to make things right.."

Is he? To make things right he needs to be honest. He needs to tell you everything now, not drip feed it over the next few years. Only then can the healing process really begin.

Try not to get angry when he tells you things. Create a space where he can tell you everything without fear of recriminations. Only then will you get the full story. And you need the full story!

Actually I think that you're entitled to be angry because you've been betrayed, but if you want to save your marriage you're going to have to do things that go against your natural instincts.

Quote...
"...but I need to understand why. I thought we were happy. We were considering having a second child..."

This is all about expectations. Dr Harley says that we should have not just good marriages but great marriages. The sub-title of his book is "How to build an affair-proof marriage". We're all wired to be attracted to members of the opposite sex who meet our emotional needs. A marriage is only affair-proof if it's not merely good but great. I learnt that the hard way myself.

Quote...
"I ordered SAA for my own sanity..."

Good! It will tell you that you are 50% responsible for the state of your marriage pre-affair but your H must take 100% responsibility for the affair. Whatever the problems in the relationship, sleeping with someone else wasn't the answer to them. This is excellent, common sense advice but easily missed, IMO.

Quote...
"I need him to switch jobs, change shifts..."

Yes, there needs to be no more contact. Marriage has to come first and a job change will almost certainly be cheaper than a divorce - to say nothing of the impact on the life of your child.

Quote...
"...tell her it meant nothing."

It meant sex with no strings attached; no commitment. It was fun but it wasn't a real relationship - it was a fantasy. From what you say he may already see this.

Quote...
"The OWH came over and discussed the situation with him. He was able to resolve things because he is leaving the OW."

In a theoretical kind of way you can empathise with this but it's not your problem. Forget it.

Quote...
"I am still here in limbo trying to decide is it worth it."

When you get married you vow to be each other's only sexual partner for the rest of your life. The marriage service doesn't express it in those words but everyone understands what it means (faithful until death do you part).

IMO you are morally entitled to a divorce.

But if you decide not to go down that route then you can't hold it over your H for ever. You both have to commit to rebuild the marriage and that means total honesty from him. I sense that this is the key issue for you.

He needs to download the whole sorry story and answer all the questions. It'll be painful for both of you but if you do it you've a good chance to come through.

I don't know whether you're in any sense a Christian but I'm praying for you. I hope that's OK.

The generic answer to your question is below. It is well worth reading, despite it's length. But, I want to address the "truth" issue. If I were you, I would carefully consider if I wanted to know all the details. They leave pictures in your head that will not serve you well. For many of us, however, not knowing is worse. It can be hard to tell ahead of time which is true for you. But, by not telling you he is doing two things: 1) Treating you with disrespect - he is deciding that he knows better than you what you want to know. This is terribly destructive to your relationship, and is discussed at some length in the Basic Concepts links below, and in more detail in Harley's book "Love Busters". 2.) He is continuing a pattern of lying to "protect" that was a pattern of behavior that enabled his affair. Reading SAA and "Torn Asunder" together, and discussing each chapter is a pretty good way to get him to see how destructive that behavior pattern is.

Ask him if "willing to do anything" to save your marriage includes telling the truth. If not, them you will have some tough decisions to make. But, make sure you make it safe for him to be truthful. It's one thing to cry or otherwise express your pain over what has happened. It is another thing to beat him about the head and shoulders with it. Also, give him some time. Affairs twist the soul of those involved. It takes time to untwist. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%. To recover, do three things:

1.) Learn. The most important and helpful single source of information for my wife and I was “Surviving an Affair” by Willard Harley (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore, Amazon.com, and bookstores all over. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them. So that you can get started right away, while waiting for SAA to arrive in the mail, read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Of course, that is just my opinions and what worked for me, who experienced it once, first hand. Harley, who has helped HUNDREDS of couples through this process, lays out his program in the following link: How to Survive Infidelity You will find that I mostly followed his plan. It works. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hello lovesaved and johnh39. First let me thank you both for responding. I wish I would have read the responses before pursuing the truth. He asked me if I could give him any reassurances that I wouldn't use the information against him, but I felt I owed him nothing. Then we both sat down and he gave me all the details. My first reaction was disgust and then anger. I physically wanted to hurt him, so I asked him to leave. I didn't intentionally LB, but I couldn't handle the truth as well as I thought I could. He went to a friend's house and called back. I wouldn't answer so he left a message saying he wanted to talk. He thought I would consider working things out if he told me the whole truth. He answered every question with all the nasty details. I thought I wanted to know the truth, but now I can't get the pictures out of my head. I know that I needed to know, but I am not emotionally equipped to deal with this right now. That was 3 days ago. After reading about LB, I decided to talk with him today and suck up my pride. I told him I would try to understand and not judge. I asked him what I needed to give him for him to feel secure. He explained to me all the things he needed from me. SO why do I feel like the fool? He cheated and now I am playing "Glenda the Good Witch." I just received SAA and plan on reading it this weekend. After surfing the board I realize I am making mistakes. I want my marriage to work. I want us both to be happy. Why should I focus on giving him what he needs first? He admitted to some really painful things. He has tried to cheat on me in the past (at least 4 other times), but was rejected. He stated the only reason it didn't happen was because they said NO. The women he was attracted to wouldn't fool around with a married man. The OW pursued him, so he finally got the chance to do it. I know I have to move past this and focus on rebuilding a relationship, but right now I feel so tempted to play tit for tat. I want him to know what this feels like, but instead I am sitting here smiling and asking "What can I do for you?". I know that if I had not found this site, I wouldn't even be entertaining the idea of working it out. I would have walked away, just because of the humiliation. One good bit of news. He has changed shifts, so they no longer work together. I am venting and it feels good.

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: darkchild ]</small>

darkchild -

Whoa, you are moving along quickly. Lots of us have been here for months and are still trying to get the truth.

I completely understand your feelings. You haven't done anything wrong - he has, so why should you be the nice person? The answer is that you want to save your marriage, not be right.

Have you read the "quick clicks" on the home page? Dr. Harley writes about how an affair should end, overcoming resentment, restoration, reconciliation . Try to read those before you talk more to H.

Not LB'ing is extremely difficult. So try to just listen to H and make it safe for him. Then if it drives you crazy, you can always come here and post. We will understand.

Your marriage sounds very promising to me. You CAN rebuild it, and make it better than before. Stick with us.

Hey darkchild..welcome to MB. Wow, you're doing great so far, and I know about the confusion. Even when you do want to save your marriage there are certain values within us that wonder about the worth. The pain, the suffering that our spouses put on us, is it worth it? I have yet to answer that question for myself.

My husband confessed the affair to me without anything. He just spilled it out 2 days after he slept with her in OUR CAR! I thought about it long and hard, I decided to stay. I still go back and forth about my decision within my head. I think H also feels that I am not completely "over this". I will never be maybe. I wanted to give my marriage a chance and I am. I may not end up staying married or I might, but after this I will be ok. Life will not end for me.
Right now, focus on your two year old. I'm sorry about the STD. That's ashamed! I'm going to take an HIV test also. Although the OW told me "you have nothing to worry about"..Yeah right.. taking from someone who slept with a man at their first meeting!

Anyways... courage, its ok that you do not know what to do. Time will help you heal and also time will tell where your marriage is going.

In the meantime, you have us as your support group! And Beleiver knows her stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

dark child, I'd like to share something with you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Joseph's Letter.

"To Whomever:

I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

First let me thank everyone who responded to my post. In a sense you were all a godsend. I have been lurking the boards but dealing with my own pain in private. If you don't mind I would like to post, sort of as a journal for me to express my pain instead of LB. Even though he has changed shifts, I still feel insecure about them working at the same company. He has agreed to find a job elsewhere. I have days where I feel I can deal with this and then I have dark days where I want him to experience every bit of pain and humiliation I feel. I have seriously considered having an affair as revenge. I feel so betrayed and I am not sure I want to work on the marriage. My head is spinning. I have been home sick for a day and the more time I have to think about it, the angrier I become. I know all the details and it's like having my own personal porn movie playing 24 hours in my head. Now to make matters worse, OW husband has started talking to me since he feels alone. I know he is in a lot of pain (She moved out and started seeing another man already), but everytime we speak I feel like the pain is fresh. I feel vulnerable and whenever we talk I feel drawn closer to him. He has asked if I would go to dinner this weekend and I felt it was inappropriate (given the circumstances), but he assured me he has only honorable intentions. My husband feels insecure because of the time I spend talking on the phone with him. I must admit I like him feeling insecure, but at the same time I don't want to create an environment where he feels able to cheat again. He is in individual couseling and wants me to attend a session with him next week. What am I supposed to do at this session? Right now I am so lost! I feel torn. I should stay and work this out for my 2 year old. She deserves a complete family. My husband was my best friend before we got married. We have been through so much together, so why can't I get past this? Am I deluding myself? Was he really ever my friend or in love with me? He is doing and saying all the right things. This seems too easy and I feel I am being set up. If I let him get away with this I think he will feel like he can do it again. He seems remorseful. He apologized for putting me at risk by not using a condom (and Thank GOD his HIV test came back negative)apologized for the disrespect, apologized for the affair... I don't think he fully realizes how much pain he has caused. Yes he is crying and begging for another chance, but so what? I wasn't worth being faithful to 6 months ago. What makes me so special now? He goes on and on about how he will never find anyone like me. Well why didn't he appreciate what he had? I am a very attractive woman and this has put a dent in my self-esteem (OW looks like a wildebeest). I have to take care of myself and project a positive image for my business. I know I should wait at least 6 months before making any decisions. So I asked him to wait at least 3 months for me to decide if I want this marriage. He wants to be intimate and I keep thinking "remember the STD (bacterial vaginosis) you gave me?" His doctor feels it isn't really a STD, but my gynecologist feels it was sexually transmitted from my husband. I am thankful that I didn't contract anything else, but I am not feeling sexual toward him. How long before I begin to feel like a woman again? Thanks for reading and letting me vent. I don't know where else to turn, but I appreciate this forum because I realize I am not alone.

--darkchild

Sounds like a pretty normal recovery, so far. It took me a few months to decide I wanted to stay married, and at 3+ years out the doubts about that beig the right decision have ended, when I am at all rational. I think, though, that you might benefit more from reading "Survivng an Affair" and "Torn Asunder" and "The State of Affairs" together, than from lurking here. These boards are valuable, BUT, you can really find any perspective and advice you want, if you look. Those books are written by successful professionals that have helped thousands of couples survive and thrive after affairs. And, reading together and discussing what you read is one way to help you understand each other.

darkchild,

My first piece of advice is to calm down. You cannot make all of these decisions now. YOu don't know enough yet. Neither does your H. I will explain what I mean by these comments in a moment.

THE key to all of this is TIME and PATIENCE, T&P. You must heal and that takes time. He must heal and that takes time. YOu must rediscover what you both loved about the other, that takes time. Neither of you are in "peak form" right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So have patience, you will be when the time is right.

I know only what I have read but I would bet that one of the key elements missing in your marriage was communications, not necessarily about day to day things but about emotions, feelings, needs, desires, fantasies. Work on that. After what you have heard him say, there is little you cannot tell him and there is little he cannot tell you and none of it will be as bad as what has already occured.

So keep talking to him.

Now allow me to return to my first statements. Neither of you know enough to decide if you want to make this marriage work or how to make it work if that is your decision. What do you need to know about him?
You need to understand why he felt the way he did?

You need to understand how he could justify the decisions he made.

You need to understand HIS plan to reassure you that his perspective has changed on the issues of fidelity and marriage.

You need to understand what he feels is a good marriage.

What do you need to understand about yourself?

You need to understand what part you played in the status of the marriage?

You need to understand what you need from him?

YOu need to understand what you feel makes a good marriage.

You need to make a PLAN for recovery, I mean a detailed plan.

He has to understand his motivation for doing this.

He has to understand what he needs to do to make you trust him again (time and actions that match his words are a good start).

He has to understand who deeply he hurt you, although he will NEVER really know, because it was you that was hurt. By the way revenge won't help in this matter because, he is a different person and will hurt differently than you.

He has to develop a detailed plan for recovery.

He has to be accountable, and very honest.

AS you address these things you will become more comfortable in your decision making. You will begin to see that he is hurting as well as you. You will realize that he will live his life KNOWING that he failed you and risked your life. You won't have to remind him.

Finally, let me offer you somethings to consider. I don't know what your faith base is, but whatever it is: USE IT. Both of you USE IT.

Finally, you are very normal to feel that he is "getting away" with something if you work on meeting his needs. But, you need to understand two things. You are not a loser if you do, you are one strong lady. If your marriage does not make it you will know YOU did all you could and that will be a big thing. If the marriage does make it he will come to appreciate your strength and devotion.

A quote I really like and I feels addresses this well is the following </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The best revenge is a life well lived.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which leads me to a final quote for you to consider </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Work on the communications. Express your feelings, but don't LB. Open up to him and make sure you don't harbor resentment. It will help YOU, and it will allow your H work on the marriage. Remember he is NOT a mind reader.

There is more to say but as you read SAA, and probably other books, you will come to see, that the high road is the one to take. Go to his IC meeting and listen and watch, you will learn much.

Your H has a lot inside him to confront so let time and patience be your watch word.

Keep posting, asking questions, and reading the folks here will do their best to help.

God Bless,

JL