First post

30 days ago, I found out that my wife was having an EA for the previous five months. I suspected something all along but I confirmed it when I looked closely at her cell phone bills. She finally confessed to an EA and said she has fallen in love with the OM and she wants to continue with the friendship. She says she loves us both but she loves him differently and with more passion than me. My life was turned upside down on that day. I found MB out of desperation and I have studied it intently.

On D-Day she agreed to quit seeing the OM but I just found out again she never quit seeing him. She has been steadily lying to me for over six months and I know she is still seeing him today. She is very bitter towards me for making her call him in front of me and making her choosing between her spouse and two teenage children or him. She told him she has chosen us but I think she did it out of a threat of me kicking her out of the house. She will not account for times, dates, names and places when I ask her questions. She has No remorse at all. She almost signed a lease yesterday for 6 months. She said her A may be over with by then and she would consider coming back. She blames the A on me due to her now stated 20 years of a bad marriage. She has always been a strong Christian person with strong values.

I purchased two of Dr. Harley’s books and they have helped, but she doesn’t want much to do with them. Everything he states in his books seems to be unfolding before my eyes. I strongly suspect she had sex with him but she says she didn’t. She has lied to me about every facet of this affair so far and I am assuming she lying about the sex too.

I just don’t know if I have a chance for she seems to remain in the withdrawal stage. Very painful times right now. I want the marriage to work but I don’t think she does. I am 52 and she is 46. The OM is 32. This fog state is so thick and I am in hopes of seeing a little light before I break. I am on anti-depressant meds and I am kissing her butt royally but that is not working. Yesterday, I searched the Internet history and I found out she was pricing apartments and new furniture preparing her move so she could think things out. The only tears she has shed sinced D-Day is when I packed her clothes in garbage bags and told her to move out. Since she half-[censored] committed to stay, she is now unpacking all of her wrinkled clothes. Being caught didn't make her cry, having me cry didn't make her cry, hurting the children didn't make her cry but the wrinkled clothes did.

I have almost no hope and I feel desperate and remain in love with her. I know you all don’t have the answer but maybe writing this will help me. Thanks for reading.

Midwest -

Sorry to see you here, but you are at a good place. I am new here myself, and I know someone is going to come along and talk to you real soon that has some sage knowledge.

I want you to know someone is reading, and I have been where you are with my WH, and I have such compassion for you.

Keep posting. This is a great place to not only get some tried-and-proven strategies, but to vent as well. Right now, your WW is not capable of easing your pain. The people here are. We have all been there, done that, one way or the other.

So keep posting, and we will all come out of this better people on the other side, no matter the outcome of the M. Keep your chin up! Time makes it better - every day it will get better if you follow a plan. I promise.

Love, Amy

Did you read about Plan A yet? That is the starting point. Most WS's lie when caught and are not remorseful. It takes awhile before they are. So stick with us and we will support you through this. It is miserable at first, but does get better.

Midwest, you and I share a similar story. Except that unfortunately in my case, I am few months ahead of where I hope you WON'T be. My wife got herself an apartment and bought some goodies to decorate it with.

Supposedly this is because she does not want to hurt me and she is trying to decide what to do. But the real reason is to accomodate the affair and make it easier to be with OM.

Like yours she has no remorse. She got angry the few times I asked her to account for her actions or tried to find out what she was saying or writing to the OM.

My wife is also a Christian. She has no good answer to why she breaks the 6th commandment (You shall not commit adultry). She has no good answer to why she breaks her marriage vows. All I get is some stuff about a call to ministry. Huh! I never heard of a call to ministry that requires a person to commit adultry, lie to their spouse and get divorced. I wonder WHO is doing the calling!

As Dr. Harley says people having affairs will change their values to accomadate the affair. This is in SAA. What was once inconceivable becomes permissable and eventually the right thing to do. Amazing isn't it? No wonder they are described as being in a fog.

I hope things go better for you than for me. If not, get some help. I have found a local church that has meetings for people who are divorced or separated. These meetings have been a great help to me. They provide support, ideas for how to handle the situation, and the women in the group let me know when they think my WW is manipulating me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If you are a Christian you must bring God into this to help you. You and your wife have a covenant with God. While your wife may have broken the covenant, God has not. It is two against one and the Big Guy is on the same side as you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This will probably take time if it is like my situation. Be patient. You may have to wait, but remember you are NOT waiting for you WW to decide. You are waiting for God to make his will known. He will help to convict your wife and turn her around. If she will not repent, He will help you to recover.

Post here and vent if you must. You will get much fine advice, take that you think will work for you and leave the rest. I do suggest doing a good Plan A so that your wife has good reasons to stay with you in the marriage. Or, if she chooses to leave, good reasons to return. Yes, it is hard but you are doing it to save your marriage. And so that you can look yourself in the mirror and everybody else, and say you did the right thing.

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: JustinExplorer ]</small>

How long does it take before they are remorseful? My WH cried after out first and last MC session and has never cried since. He is also in a fog. It is almost like they are on a different planet or something. He is cold and nonresponsive to anything I have said or done. He has left the house now to live with his brother for two weeks so far. He comes to get his son and that is all. He wants to sell the house and he hopes to continue and maintain a relationship with the OW. I am wondering if their are signs that they are coming through the fog? If there are signs what are they? How long does it take? I love my H so much and I want my life back so badly. I am seriously thinking about giving up though. Seems like the pain is just so terrible. I am also on anti-D's, I don't think enough though. I wake up several times a night and can't sleep. As soon as I wake up it is the first thing on my mind no matter what time. I even take Xannax to sleep and it still doesn't help. Can anyone help with the signs and what to look for? He doesn't even look me in the eye when he comes. Almost like I don't exsist anymore.

Thank you for your replies. I spent the first 30 days on Plan A and when I found out WW was still seeing OM, I implemented Plan B on the spot, in a heated way. My heated Plan B caused her to leave and stay all night with the OM. She still says...No sex is involved and she says she slept on the couch.

Things have cooled down a bit and I have a close relative also trying to talk some sense into WW. God, morals, children, and everything I can think of is being brought out. Just a little while ago, she told me she was resisting MB and the Dr Harley because she didn't have anyone to tell her side of the story too. She wants to be able to justify the A, I believe. The good news is she agreed to go to MC if it is a woman. I agreed for I thought that might be a step in the right direction. She did say, if it doesn't work, the counseling will make me a better H for the next woman I meet. That comment was concerning. She may be trying to show her family that she left her M for the lack of being able to save it, not because of her A. The OM wants her to move into his home immediately. She stayed with him the other night but is saying she will not move in with him. I think the apartment is a way for her to show our kids and her family that it is a simple marriage breakup and again, not as a result of the A. She works with many divorced people and say that divorce is a way of life in today's society.

Probably more games but I have everything to gain and everything to lose, not to play it out. This remains difficult but I see and feel a very small glimmer of hope. Thanks again for your replies.

Midwest

HopelessinNY -

Your WH is deep in the fog. I know, because mine is too. The magic number I hear around here is 6 months. That is the time I am hoping to recognize his eyes again, and hear warmth in his voice. It sounds like a long time, but I have a lot of work to do to get myself ready by then if he comes back. Because that is when the work starts - in recovery. Take this time to prepare yourself. You need to be able to listen to him without getting upset, even if it is stuff you don't want to hear - and believe me, it will be. 2 weeks ago that seemed impossible to me. Today I did it! Keep posting, keep with your plan, and it will get easier. One day at a time. Did your doctor test you to see if you need anti-anxiety meds too? Mine did. I was borderline depressed, but off the charts on anxiety. Just a thought, for the sleeping. Going to bed more calm does wonders. I am even getting my appetite back.


Midwest -

You sound like you are on the right track. I am currently reading "Torn Asunder," and it has the best information I have found so far. SAA is great, too. All the books are great. Just wanted to share my education ideas with you. Take care.

Amy

Midwest -

I forgot to tell you the main thing I wanted to tell you on my last post! And that is that having everyone pressure her is probably going to backfire. For two reasons.

First, you don't want her to come home if she isn't ready. It will just hurt and confuse everyone more when she leaves again - and she will.

Second, my experience is that the more you pressure her, the more you show her your pain, the faster she is going to want to end that pain. And right now, the only way she can see to do that is D. She is not capable of doing what you want her to do right now. She just isn't.

This does not make her a bad person. It means she is an extremely confused person. Everyone has their challenges in life to overcome, and this is hers. All you can do is show her that you are there for her, if she wants to turn back to you. You have to have faith in her. I know that is hard, but you have to believe in the woman you know and love.

I really do believe this, and I am sharing it with you because all of your "good intentions" and instincts at this critical point for her are going to force her to do exactly what you don't want her to do.

Follow the plan. Not just parts of it. Remember, disrepectful judgements and demands are big-time LB's. That is how she is seeing all of your actions right now. And those of your relatives and well-meaning friends.

Take heart, a leap of faith, and have hope. That is all you can do right now. Be the strong one while she is weak. If/when she comes out of the fog, she will thank you.

Amy

Midwest,

If you are talking with her, you are not in plan B. Please read about these plans carefully. Do a great plan A, it will plant seeds, but you may well have to go to a true plan B, which is No contact with her except in emergencies or about the kids.

The odds are high that an affair with the 32 year old man will end and end badly for her. But, there is little YOU can do. Do plan A, then prepare the plan B letter, but if you decide on plan B stick to it.

I know this hurts, but also quit trying to educate her. She will not listen and will only use it against you. This is tough stuff, and it is hard to get through, but people here will help you through as best they can.

Hang in there, do the reading, get counseling, I would strongly suggest counseling with the Harley's they are not cheap, but they are a lot cheaper than a divorce.

God Bless,

JL

Midwest,

I am in Indiana... I have the name of a great MC and she is a woman if you are in that area. Of course, my WH won't see her.. so right now I go by myself. It's great anyways to go for me.

I know it is so hard to understand what they are doing. It is for me too. My WH just tosses blame and all the choices are about me. He doesn't understand I have to make choices based on his choices... and they hurt all of us, me and our two kids.

The pull and addiction is so strong, it's awful. But I am sure she is struggling too. I read "After the Affair". I wish I could remember the author, but I gave the book to my WH and he has yet to read or return it for that matter. But it will so help understand not only what you feel, but what she is feeling. That was a big help to allow me to stop LBing so much and it still is so hard. In fact, I had a major wanna LB today and I did a little despite my best intentions. But once you get some insight into her behavior, you won't be so quick to judge and demand (big LB). So find the book and read the chapter on I think they called it, Unfaithful Partner's feelings. It's very enlightening and really helped me understand.... that WS's are in a lot of pain too. It helps to cope when you see the person you love is actually in a lot of pain themselves.

Good Luck... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Heavenlee:

What part of IN are you in?

Just Learning:

I have been afraid to push her away but I feel like I am making a last ditch effort to save the marriage. I cannot honestly say that I will accept her back if she obtains her apartment, has her six months of fun in the sack, let the A run its course, and then comes back to me and have her say, Can we start over? I don't think I am strong enough for that at this time. I guess time will tell.


Amy: THanks for your comments as well.

Midwest

-----------------

BS, Me, 52
WH, 46
Married 20 yrs
2 S at home, 17 & 19
1 s married from previous marriage
Admiited EA 1/16/04
Admits EA continues as of 2/16/04
2/18/04 WW haas agreed to MC.
As of today, I am not optomistic.

Great advice AMY

If I had read this earlier I needn't have posted to you today. YOu have it worked out well.

Midwest
listen to amy's advice
It is sound

C&S

Midwest -

You are in a tough spot. And that is a decision all of us BS's have to make - how much is too much? Where is our line in the sand, so to speak?

Unfortunately, if you want her to do what you want, in your timeframe, then you could find yourself filing for D. I guess that is what you have to ask yourself.

Her A isn't really about the OM. The only way it is really about you is that you are her partner in the marriage that she is not getting her needs met. Her A is about her.

Think of it as if she were addicted to drugs. Even perscription drugs. Her addiction happened gradually, and she went too far before she knew it, and now she is 100% confused. She is afraid to come home and feels guilty, she is afraid to commit to OM and feels guilty. She has betrayed herself. I believe that how much pain we feel as BS, our WS feel as much, equal.

Try reading "Torn Asunder." Her A is either a cry for help in her marriage, or it is a way for her to get out of her marriage. I doubt even she knows. You are not in the fog. You are capable of educating yourself and controlling yourself. You are capable of learning.

Please realize that you have part of the responsibility for the circumstances that lead her to seek comfort. Her A is 100% hers. There are 50 other things she could have done if she was unhappy besides the painful, selfish act of an A. But you need to own your responsibility.

Take a brutally honest look at your past year. If you can see no deficiencies, you are not being honest. A's rarely happen in strong marriages. I thought mine was strong. But when I had to sit and write out what was not working in my M (homework from mine and WH's first MT session), I was flabergasted! The things that worked took up almost 1 page. The other 2+ pages were what didn't work! I had only seen these things individually, one at a time. Added up, I am amazed we made it this long!

I'm not saying that is the case with you, but there is stuff you need to look at. Those are the things she will hear right now. She needs to know that you are not pointing the finger at her and saying, "You ruined this perfect thing. You are so horrible. Look what you did for no reason." She needs you to take an honest look. Honesty is what will bring you back together.

After the A, not much else hurts so bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Well, I'm not trying to lecture you. I am trying to help you. All the WS's are the same. And I am 8 weeks into my ordeal. And I just now figured all this stuff out. And I pushed my WH far, far away in that time. Because I was doing "last ditch efforts," tried to "talk some sense into him."

Like getting blood from a turnup, or from a rock, or something like that. I think I got my alanogies turned around, but you know what I mean. Soon, the plan will make sense to you. Until then, you are going to have to "Fly by your instrument panel." Look up that post on page 2 or 3 or something of General Questions.

Take care and keep posting.

Amy

Amy thanks for the post back. It was really appreciated. It is very calming to know that there are others that can help you know what you are feeling. I am truly hopeless. I feel like all is lost. I am also going to order those books today. We are really struggling financially because I am a SAHM and he is still paying all the bills, plus living at his brothers and paying for stuff there. But hopefully this will help him see how hard he is making things. It helps me a lot to hear that other marriages have recovered from these things. Six months seems like such a long time from now. I hope I can hold out that long with a glimmer of hope. I was hoping that he would see the light sooner. He is so IN LOVE with the OW. I will never understand it. We have a three year old son that he adored until he met her. Sometimes it is hard to keep your head above water in all of this.

Okay, greetings to all of you the new posters here!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Please please remember....that many of Dr. H's concepts are counter intuitive. What that means to you....is that what feels right to do is often NOT right. For instance...plan A. People get this plan all wrong. It's NOT about kissing anybody's patootie. It's extremely important to stop all love busting...that is ESSENTIAL, but I'd like all of you to read our resident expert's advice on Plan A to dispell some of the myths about it.

cerri's guidelines:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amy mentioned that pressure from other people would backfire....and that is exactly the kind of thing that is necessary to break the addiction of an affair. Exposure...to friends, family, work, church....injects conflict into the affair relationship. Instead of being able to live in their little secret fantasy world...the pressure from outside makes keeping the affair going much harder.

So midwest, I have got the best female marriage coach you could ask for....trained by Willard Harley himself and you don't have to leave your house to use her. Go to www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com. (cerri/Penny) Then, there's Jennifer Chalmers...Harley's daughter who is also excellent and you can find her number on the main site.

This is not the time for you guys to give each other advice....support for sure...be there for each other. But when marriages are in the grips of affairs is when they need the most help and a true recovery plan to follow up with. Plan A and B should be done with a real coach. When that's in place, use the board to come and get help/support/courage to follow through with what your coaches have to say.

Welcome and Good Luck

Point taken, Star*fish. I apologize for my over-eagerness. You are very wise in these matters. I will only support from now on.

Amy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Amy,

I sounds like you and I are in the same phase right now. I am only into it for two weeks though. How do you get through the days and nights? I do not work outside the home so it makes it even harder for me. Does your WH still live there with you or did he leave? Mine left on 2/8. Still seeing OW. Did you ever notice that the OW never seems to be better looking or a better person than you are? I noticed that with several of my friends that have had this happen also.

BS, Me, 35
WH, 32
Married 7 yrs
1 S at home, 3
1 D at home from previous marriage, 11
Admiited SA 11/1/03
Admits SA continues as of 2/18/04
WH has left family for OW.
As of today, I am not optomistic at all.

Amy,

I can already tell that you are going to be an incredible asset to this board. I mean that sincerely and didn't mean to single you out...there are alot of newbies on this board right now...and not alot of vets to help you guys. With cerri so busy these days...there is a bit of void on the board. Do not think you can't offer advice...but make it about what you know. As you learn the concepts and feel competent to help others understand...by all means...share that knowledge. This board is powered by the fact that new people come in, learn and read, and share that. Here on JFO is where most of the mistakes in following through with Dr.H's concepts do the most damage. When I first got here....I spent alot of time, going back to the home site and quoting Harley directly so that I was certain that the advice I shared with people was in keeping with his techniques for saving marriages.

Again, with cerri MIA...I'd like to offer a few names of very knowledgeable vets for you guys to post to in your title lines. Those guys will pick up the slack here and very rarely ignore a thread with their name in it. And just putting "old timers or vets" in the title will get attention too. Here's some of the names that I know are knowlegeable and give great insight and support. K, John39, Takola, Kam, Orchid, Pepperband, Toomuchcoffeeman, Just Learning, 2long, WAT, JustJ, ark^^, awed...that's for starters. Not all of them are on this board all the time...so posting over on GQII simultaneously is also a great idea.

We all have opinions...but the strength of this board is our ability to give more than our own opinions....afterall, most folks here are really in trouble, have little or no training, but we have a vast amount of information available on the homesite to reinforce what we say.

So please accept my invitation to you to learn and share what you know....always being careful to double check your advice with the advice that is proven to help marriages. I am very glad you are here.

star*

Star*fish -

The only one of the vets you mentioned that has posted to my thread was TooMuchCoffeeMan. Scared&Confused told me today she was surprised none of the vets had spoken to me, and said you all must be thinking I had the program down.

Maybe you could read my thread (Separated and he has emotionally divorced me, in JFO), and give me some of your insights.

Love, Amy

Star:

I was unaware that exposing the A to the WS's peers, family, etc would be helpful. I initially promised my wife to keep her A a secret but she continued with the A and the lies anyway. I finally told my father, my children, and our sister-in-law which she is close to and that made her furoius with me. I have many more that I could but I hold out hope to save the marriage and to allow her to keep her head up high.

Since then, she has agreed to counseling but I do not feel she is yet too sincere. She has confided with my oldest son where the OM works and it is in the same place my wife works, as I figured. She continues to deny this fact to me and to our sister-in-law. She loves her job and of course, the OM. I have decided to see how the MC will go and see if I can get her to come out with more truthful information.

She is afraid that her other family members and her mother will find out. I told her if she walks away for the OM, I will expose her to everyone for what she has done and is still doing today.

Personally, I believe she is still planning on the separation/Divorce but she will use the MC as a way to show everyone how we couldn't save our M. That will set up the apartment she wants and the freedom to have her lover without technically leaving me for her lover. It is a long way around the barn but it is not much different than the lies and lifestyle she lived the last six months.

I will play it out to the end just in case a breakthrough can be had with the MC. I told her today that if she does not read the radically honest information from Dr. Harley and if she chooses to lie and keep seeing her lover, we do not have a chance.

I would have bet money with anyone that I would have had an A before my wife would ever had an A. I didn't and she did. Who would have guessed.

My Wife wants to meet with a live MC so she can tell/sell them on why she did what she did. She doesn't like Dr. Harley because he already knows her, what she has done, and what she will do tomorrow. Maybe that will change in time.
Thanks all so much. I welcome any and all advice.

Midwest