This will be a little long, but I want to unload in writing the whole picture.

I have been married nearly 16 yrs. Our marriage has had its ups and downs. Nearly 3 wks ago, my W and I had a big argument and did not speak for several days (funny that the argument started the night following a church family retreat). 2 wks ago today, I found note that said "I am at my parents house, my dad will be over soon to talk to you." When he came over, he told me my W was leaving me.

That night I called a wise older man from church and asked for some counseling. My W had also independently called this same man. Each of us met with him separately the next day (Fri 2/6/04). I opened up for the first time in my life and understood for the first time some of my faults. The 3 of us met together that Monday. It was a great session. I wept openly in front of my W for the first time in our marraige. I was heartbroken. After counseling, my W and I sat for 2 hrs in the car and talked openly. I told her then that one topic I wanted to address was when she had kissed another man 7 yrs ago.

We met for counseling again Thurs (1 wk ago). Again it was great. We spent 3 hrs talking afterward in the car. That is when I brought up the issue of the other M. (7 yrs ago, after much prying on my part, she admitted to french-kissing this M but swore that was the extent of it. I believed her then, but always had a small lingering doubt) I asked last week if it had been anything more than kissing, thinking MAYBE they had done soem physical touching. She answered "not really." She was obviously uncomfortable, so I asked point blank if she had slept with him. She tearfully told me she had.

The circumstance was this: my W had taken a 4-day cruise with her mom and her mom's friend. She met a crew member the second night who offered to show her the port. She told him she was M, but went anyway. They danced and drank (two things she does not like to do). Then he sneaked her into his cabin. They looked at photos on his bed. He then leaned over and kissed her and it was off to the races. She told me they were having sex within a minute or two. She told me all this last Thurs and assured me that was everything. I asked that she meet alone with the counselor alone and reveal this so he could work out the best plan of attack. She me with him Sunday.

While she was meeting with him, I was reading a letter she had left me. In it she admitted that she had held back on Thurs. On that cruise, she had gone back the next night, knowing full well what she was in for. She tells me that on both occasions, she was "numb" and got zero sexual fulfillment out of it (he "filled an emotional need" that I was not filling by making her feel special and beautiful), but I wonder if that is simply her brain having convinced her of the over the last 7 yrs.

I am crushed. I guess I thought that the one-night stand involving alcohol may have been just a moment's bad judgement (even though she fully admitted that she knew exactly what she was doing). Hard -- but somehow easy to accept. When I learned of the second night, my emotions went spinning out of control. Poor judgement and alcohol were no longer an excuse -- this was PLANNED. Further, what I had thought of as a night of complete openness (Thurs) was not. In fact, Sat (Valentine's) she came home to stay, and the kids on Sun. Sat night was incredible together.

I had written her a letter Fri night expressing some of my feelings. One section read "However, as this is so fresh in my mind, there is still a part of me that wonders if you have 100% opened up to me. If you have (and I believe 99.9999% that you have), then I am sorry for continuing to question you." This was before the bombshell of the "second night." Now she "swears on the souls of our children" that she is being 100% honest.

I have had and continue to have many different emotions and feelings, across the whole spectrum from good to bad. here are some of them:

1. Deep hurt -- for my W that she has the pain of revealing this after 7 years of swearing to herself it would go to her grave with her.

2. Anger -- at her for the A, anger for lying to me for 7 yrs, and deep anger for lying to me even now.

3. Jealousy -- because she has "tasted the forbidden fruit" and I have not. I have had opportunity and have always been faithful. This is one of the ones that feels so strange -- why would I ever feel this when I know the pain that results.

4. Excitement -- This one is hard to explain. I never saw my W as a "sexual" person, mainly because she discouraged it. Now I guess I know that she can be highly "sexual" and it is somewhat of a turn-on.

5. Fear -- right now I can't say that I will ever 100% believe her again, not just about this. This scares me. I feel that we will have to be 100% open and honest to build a marriage again.

6. Self-doubt -- I have always had some issue with self-esteem from childhood onward. I have been tempted to raise it by engaging in an A myself when opportunities arose, but I have always been faitful (in fact I have never been to a strip club or engaged with others on chat boards because I feared it leading to unfaithfulness). Now that self-esteem is at an all-time low. In fact I wrote this to my W 2 days ago when asking her to make a clear choice and not string me along: "Right now my self-esteem is just so low that for you to do so [string me along] would make me suicidal or become withdrawn into an empty shell with no hope of emerging again." Her A and the added fact that she's been "faking it" in the bedroom often in the last 2 yrs are a big blow right now.

7. A need for details -- I want to know every last detail of the A, even if that means my W will have to dredge up bad memories. I want to know specifically what she did (for instance, she has always been repulsed by the thought of oral sex, but I want to know if she had any). I want to know how the OM "compares" to me both physically and sexually. I want to know the exact chain of events that led to this. She tells me she is fuzzy on some of the details, having had 7 yrs to bury it -- but I'm not sure if that is just her mind blocking it out because she really does not want to go there.

I have written to my W every day, as that seems easier than talking -- of course we follow up with talking about what I've written. But I am not getting much sleep. I find myself crying uncontrollably from time to time. I appreciated cliff's thread where he said he stares into space, etc. I understand that exactly. I have cried more this week than I have in my entire life before now. I don't eat much (even though I'm a big eater) and I can't even think about work. But there is another side too. The last 2 nights, my W and I have had the most amazing intimacy together, both in the bedroom and out. The kind of emotional connection I have never felt in our marriage. I am greatly encouraged by this, but I still want to be 100% open and share my other feelings with my W. I worry that this will cause much doubt in her and put her on the same emotional rollercoaster I'm now on.

That's about it (for those that hung in there). I am meeting today alone with the counselor to dicuss some of these feelings -- I may just print this out and share it with him. I love my W, but at times I wonder whether I should just "cut my losses" and avoid the possibility of being further hurt. I don't want to stay together because of our children, or because we have "too much invested" already. I don't want the same woman I had before. I want more. I am going to deal with my faults whether or not this works out between us. Thanks for reading and any thoughts you can share with me. BTW, I have ordered SAA and TA to read soon. Thanks again.

Todd

Todd,

Welcome to the forum. First may I say to you...that the feelings you describe...every last one of them are chronicled on the pages of this forum. These are normal feelings for where you are (eve....even the unusual ones. That's the good news....the better news is that the situation you are is the kind that responds very well to these concepts and has the greatest recovery rate. Yes, it took you a while to get all of the truth, and it was a two night stand instead of a one. That's significant, but it's still a completely sex-based affair....it's the emotional attachments to the A partner that are the worst to overcome. My marriage has survived two of these type incidents...and you certainly don't feel lucky right now...but you are. If this were a long standing affair with emotions involved the chance of recovery would be greatly reduced. Right now, it's hard to believe that you will forgive this, or that it want haunt you everyday...but that stuff eventually fades...takes a while though. There could be a sexual awakening as a result of this that can actually improve physcial intimacy. I think you are seeing that. Don't give up hope. Know you are not alone. The silver lining of this sort of thing is that if you use it as a wake up call....you can rebuild a better marriage than you had.

What a fantastic, honest post, todd. It will be of great help to others on this board who are having trouble understanding their spouses feelings.

I dont feel like i am as qualified as star*fish and the other veterans to give you advice, but i wanted to let you know i am thinking of you. I do think, however, that your marriage will be unlikely to fail if you continue to be as honest and conscientious as you are now. It seems to me that your wife made a genuine mistake, and was merely trying to protect you.

I wish you luck

Todd -

Is she not leaving you anymore? What were her reasons for having her father come over and tell you that? Does the A have anything to do with that?

I am confused.

Amy

I just finished meeting with the counselor. I read him my post along with the letters I have been writing to my W over the last week. It was good to say it aloud and was a little easier after having posted it here. He mostly listened, and offered help in dealing with my depression.

In about 2 hrs, my W and I will both meet with him again together. He previewed some of the discussion with me. I know we will be discussing the need for her to be 100% open and honest with me -- even with the specific details of the A. We will also be discussing how we will handle my repeated need to ask the same things over and over again. He understands it completely and will recommend to her that she offer to tell me about anything at any time I ask -- even if I wake her at 3am to ask the same exact question about some minute detail that she has already answered. I believe (and pray) that she will agree this is the right approach.

I wasn't real clear before, so let me clarify. My W moved out 2/5/04 to her parents home with the children. She has an extremely close relationship with her parents. That is why her father came and talked with me. He has been essentially a surrogate father to me and she wanted him to do this for her. While he said she was "leaving me" and had contacted an attorney, I think she was really crying out for attention from me (it worked, although I don't agree with the method). After two counseling sessions (the 2nd session being the night I got PART A of the bombshell, 2/12/04), we felt so encouraged by our progress we made plans to have her move back home Sat night, 2/14/04. This allowed us to go on a Valentine's "date" and then go home together without the kids. We got the kids the next day (who has the special privilege of an extra day with the grandparents -- the kids have no clue). I brought the kids home while my W went to see the counselor. That is when I read PART B of the bombshell (and I pray to God there isn't a PART C). On the way home from the counselor, my W called and asked if she should stay away. I told her I'd rather we talk it through (in the meantime, I found this site and have been reading as much as possible since). We are still living together in the same house.

I hope tonight we will get it all out with the counselor. We will discuss my feelings that I would rather she cut me loose now rather than string me along if she cannot/will not dedicate herself to the extreme amount of WORK this will take on her part to deal with my mistrust and repeated questioning. I have already felt some level of frustration from her that I keep asking and can't just accept it the first time and move on to the next thing.

I will try to post again tonight or tomorrow to give an update of our session with the counselor and what her decision is regarding her willingness to move forward together. I hope to soon get her on this site to post some of her thoughts and feelings from her perspective. This is very therapeutic.

Todd

BTW, I forgot to mention an important detail.

Last night (2/18/04), my wife told me that the OM had called her about 1 wk after the cruise ended. She says she did not mention it before because I was the one that answered the phone and knew who it was. I personally don't recall this, but that would not be unusual for me.

I guess what bugs me is -- why didn't she mention this before? Is this the set-up for a PART C? I seriously doubt she could have met with the OM after the cruise, as we live nowhere near the ocean, and he was a foreigner working on the cruise line. But I do wonder if they spoke again later and whether she had fond recollection at that time of the A (and for that matter, what did they talk about). She says she "must have" felt something like that (fondness) but does not actually recall. I'm not so sure she still isn't repressing her feelings. We'll see...

Todd

Todd1967,
Yes ....these feelings are quite normal. You did a great job summarizing what goes through the mind of male BS's ( and probably feemale BS's, too)

Personally I have been through all of those feelings. For me it has been 6 months since DDay 2 - news of the PA and I am feeling better about myself, my wife and our future togehter. Of course, I'm still taking my "happy pills" so that may be the only reason but I don't think so. Let me give you a quick update that I think will help you understand what amy lie in store.

I'm past the hurt, anger,fear & the need for details. Those feelings came early on and seem to have (mostly) faded. Occassionally I'll think of a question that I never asked but at this point my need to know isn't as strong as my desire to keep the relationship on the mend. The self-doubt/ low self esteem followed and just recently I feel as though I'm out of that phase. It took awhile though and it affected my job and all of my inter-personal relationships. Felt like I didn't have a freind in the world and therefore no reason-to-be.

The jealousy is the tough one that seems to continue to hang over my head. I've had the oppurtunity numerous times over the years to be unfaithful and never acted upon it. I'm worried that the next time the oppurtunity arrives I won't be quite so noble. Can't tell with the motivation is the envy of the non-partner sex or flat out revenge.

You need to get yourself to a point where you want to save the marriage and realize that you need to move on. It'll take awhile but try to make that your goal. Otherwise it's easy to get bogged down in the misery of the situation.

Since it's been so many years I think you are past the danger of AIDS although I'm no expert. You didn't say whether they practiced safe sex or not but I'm assuming a foreigner working on a cruise ship wouldn't.

Whether there's more info to follow, who knows. The only way to find out is to respond in a calm manner when new info does come out. That way your W will feel more at ease providing the info. Especially if you ask her the details of the specific sex. Don't get upset otherwise she was "justified" in keeping it from you and will learn that she can't talk to you about these things.

I hope in 6 months you are where I am and in 6 months I hope I'm still where I am and haven't backslid.

cwmac

Just got back from the counselor. There was much crying as I openly questioned my W's commitment to truly working through the pain rather than avoiding it. She vowed to make it work no matter what it took and I believe her.

The counselor shared with us that she would need to commit to answering my questions any time, any place, about any thing -- total and complete honesty. Further, that she immediately come to me if additional details come to her mind that she had forgotten. She agreed to do these things. I understand now that the issue of the phone call I described earlier was one of these things -- it was a detail she had forgotten, but had remembered since our "PART B" discussion. I am glad she shared it with me and did not try to just leave it alone.

We committed last week to meet with the counselor for 6 months minimum, even if our relationship was moving along quickly. He suggested that we will still have more to uncover that will be very painful -- not necessarily about the A or another A, but other issues in our relationship. We have both committed that we will work through these -- I only hope that my W is being totally honest and there is nothing more of this kind. Right now I believe her (but of course my mind may take that roller-coaster dip at any time).

I hope to continue to post here as we recover from this and will be lurking often. My W will be reading this thread tonight when we get the kids to bed. I have encouraged her to give it a try and share her own feelings as it is both therapeutic and may help someone else with their own struggle. Thanks to everyone for the replies and for all I've had opportunity to read on other threads. This has been the second-best resource I have found (next to our "live" counseling sessions).

Todd this may help you a little bit.

I don't recall which book it was I think it was Torn Asunder by Dave Cardner...anyhow.

The author noted that sometimes a first time wayward spouse is filled with grief, remorse and guilt the first time they go all the way with the OP. And that sometimes there is a rush back to that very same situation as if to drink again from the dog that bit them so to speak.

I will try and find which book it was but I wanted you to know your wife may have indeed been numb emotionally the second time simply giving in to the addictive nature of the affair.

My wife and yours sound familiar. My wife met her OM on a chat line and on a trip to visit her family took a detour to a different country and spent 2 weeks with the OM. Sex happend the fisrt night and every night until she had her period. She also said she did not enjoy the sex and it lasted only a few minutes every time. This sounds so stupid to me, i will never understand, never, never, never.

I really dont understand why a woman would have sex over and over again if they didnt enjoy it and had no plans to stay with him. Im thinking that WS's just say these stupid things to minimizes their responsibility or somehow it satifies their warped explanations.

I used to think my wife was intelligent and responsible. I do not see her as the same person anymore. We have been trying to work it out just like you have. We also had this nice connection much like yours after her affair, but its been 2 years and things have faded and arent very good. I do not trust her and i will never trust her. Exactly what is a marriage without trust?

Things are so strange even 2 years later, i cant tell if she is being honost about anything. She wont give me datails because i bring them up in arguments. The things she says no make no sence, nothing logical. She explained she wanted to leave his house after the second day there but her plane didnt leave for another week and a half. I asked her why didnt she just take an earlier flight and she responded, that would have been rude. I actualy accused her of stealing a video once because i didnt see her buy it, and i know she wouldnt steal anything, would she?.

When they say get ready for a "rollercoaster ride", they aint kidding.

stay positive, todd. from what i can see you seem to be beginning to make progress already, which is fantastic.

good luck

Hi todd,

I just read your story and I'm glad you found us.I hope your wife is lurking too.Tell her we will not berate her and she is welcome to post as we have several other WS(wayward spouses) here too.Let us know how you're doing.

O

Todd,
How are you and your W doing?

cwmac

Hi Todd,

I'm so sorry for your pain, but it sounds as if you are both truly on the road to recovery. Some women have personality types that don't allow them to express themselves sexually. I am one of those types...the Enneagram Type One. The sad part, however, is that the sexual desire is still there in full force, but we deny it because we equate it with being "bad" in some way. When women like that finally realize that their sexuality is a God-given gift (I'm finally there), there is an awakening of a sexual goddess!! Your wife may now be willing to embrace her sexuality and as she does, you can be there to help her along and enjoy her as she learns to enjoy herself. If she is a similar personality type to mine then she probably feels TERRIBLE about this lapse in judgement. It may have actually happened because she was trying so hard to deny her sexuality. Once she was in a different setting, without all of her every day stress surrounding her, she let go and found herself in a very bad situation.

I hope you'll be able to forgive her. In some ways she's a better risk than finding another woman to love. She sees the pain that this has caused and she doesn't want it to happen again. With another woman...who knows what you'll get. There are no guarantees in this thing we call love.

There is a series of books that you guys might find helpful. They can transform your relationship. They are by Gay and Kathlyn Hendricks and are available on amazon.com.

Conscious Loving at amazon.com

The Conscious Heart at amazon.com

Lasting Love at amazon.com

Undefended Love: The way that you f... you can feel all the time at amazon.com

That last one is recommended by the Hendricks, but they did not write it. I just ordered it myself! It looks really good!

Take care and continued blessings on your road to recovery.

Stillwed