Hi again...

Those of you who have been following my story know about my desire to talk to the OW.

For the last couple of weeks I have put this thought out of my mind and tried to move on. The truth is that I can't. My H talked to her and said what he had to say, OW talked to my H and e-mailed him and said what she had to say, OW sent me an e-mail and a card and said what she had to say...the point is, they have both talked to each other and to me and said what they had to say and so they are ready to move on and put it all behind.

Well, I am not. I have talked to my husband, that's for sure but I haven't told her how I feel and I want her to know. I don't want to insult her or scream at her or anything like that, I just want her to know how I feel.

Yes, it may be a bad idea and I may only feel good for ten minutes and then I may regret what I did for the rest of my life...but I have to find out. I just have to do this....I need to let these feelings out.

During a discussion last week H told me he didn't care whether or not I talked to her so this morning I asked him if he really meant it because if he did...I was going to talk to her. Inmediately he got very upset, raised his voice, started swearing and told me that if I kept bringing this up he wasn't going to take it anymore. He says he wants was to move on, he wants her to move on, he is not even thinking about her and I keep bringing her name up, he says my obsession with her is what is destroying our relationship.

Finally, he said to me that all the discussions we have had over the past weeks add up and that he is not sure that he will want to be with me anymore. He doesn't think that I will ever give us a chance to be happy...

I told him that I had asked him many times during our marriage to not betray me because I didn't think I would be able to handle it (probably 100 times even while the affair was going on)...he always said he wouldn't do anything like that to me...yet he went out and did it anyways...now I am asking him to support me in doing the one thing that I feel I need to do after he has destroyed my life....yet, he said he couldn't let me do that.

What? I thought to myself, am I hearing this right? So I asked him straight out... are yout telling me that you would rather divorce me than have me talk to the OW?....he said: "yes, that is what I am saying, I cannot let you talk to her".

How am I supposed to feel when my husband tells me something like this? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> This is going down...fast!!. Suggestions anyone?

feeling,

What do you hope to gain by talking to this woman? Satisfaction? Closure? What? Right now, your attitude is a greater threat to your marriage than the affair was. Try writing down all the things you want to say to her....then burn it. I would strongly suggest some individual counseling to help you get back on track. Are you taking anti-depressants? Are you two seeing a MC?

Feeling,
I completely understand why you feel this need. In my own words, it's like the two of them are at the hub of a circle, and you're on the outside orbit. It's about them and their relationship, and you're the afterthought.
They've tied up their loose ends, but you feel like your loose ends are left hanging. They've had their sad, private, romantic goodbye, and you just have to accept it.
Not only accept it, but if you disobey your H, if you talk to the OW against his wishes, he threatened to divorce you. Wow, talk about adding insult to injury.
You may even feel like you need to have this last talk with OW to recover your self-respect and dignity.
I really do understand. Really, I think about doing just the thing you want to do.

Now to starfish's coments: writing down what you want to say and burning it. Okay, that's very therapeutic. And about the counseling? THAT could go on for years, and run into a lot of money. (It's been 5 years for me.)
and about the attitude? Yeah, I have to agree with that. Your H doesn't feel safe around you. Yeah, I know he ripped your guts out with his betrayal. The effects of that affair will never go away.

You could make the effects of the affair work to your benefit, if you want to restore your marriage. You can put your energy into improving your relationship, and improving yourself.

You have to repress your feelings, sublimate all your negative energy and release it into something that benefits you. Like, when you're feeling like blowing up, grab your keys and go for a brisk walk until you are huffing and puffing.

It isn't fair. He cheated, and you're denied satisfaction. That's the way it goes for the BS's when they want to stay and rebuild their marriages. We eat dirt. Delay gratification. We work extra hard to repair the damage our cheating spouses did. Totally unfair and screwed.

And yet, people who are going for a long-term goal sacrifice their immediate needs to achieve the goal. Eating apples for dessert instead of cheesecake. Studying all weekend instead of flying to Vegas.

It stinks. It's not fair. I understand. But ultimately, only you know what you can live with.

((((((((((((((feeling)))))))))))))))))

Star,

Thanks for your feedback. I have written many things, many times....It's not working!...I want to talk to her...tell her how I feel, show her the person they have turned me into...I need some closure and I am only going to get it when I talk
to her. Why is that so difficult to understand?

You didn't say anything about my husband's attitude? Do you think he is right to tell me he would rather divorce me than have me talk to her?

I stopped AntiD's....weren't working...I was feeling worst...

Yes, we are seeing a MC...her diagnosis..."we are stuck".

What do you think of that?

Bellevue,

Thanks sooo much for your words...it feels so good to talk to someone who understands how I feel.

I feel so alone right now, it's depressing. My husband and I are here in the US alone...all my family is overseas and this whole thing just ...
well, you know what it feels like.

Do you think I am a bad person or I am being unreasonable for wanting to do something that I think might help me?

You know what, maybe what I am looking for is an excuse to give up...maybe if I talk to her and I find out that my husband is still lying to me then that will give me the strength to let go of him....and if he isn't lying then I will be willing to work on our relationship with all my strength... does this make any sense?

We were thinking of attending Retrouvaille the weekend of March 19. If we keep this pace I don't think we'll make it...a friend of mine suggested that I move in with her for this month before we attent the program just to make sure that we give ourselves the chance to make it there. What do you think?

I am sooo sad right now. I wish I could go back to being the bubbly and happy person I used to be before my life came crashing down on me...

Feeling,

I talked to the OW when I found out about her number from one of failed VTEXT messages that my SO was trying to send her so I called her up and screamed at her,vented at her,called her names etc...at which my point my SO- significant other, came home and found me on the phone with her. Immediately I attacked him with all the lies etc and threatened to leave him. In short after all the rage, I calmed down and he promised never to contact her again which was of course broken after 2 weeks. What did I learn from all these?
First I felt good hearing that she had all these illusions about their R, that she also heard what we have and that accdg to my SO that she was really shaken for a long time crying etc...yeah right but didn't stop her from sending him emails saying she's going to wait on him etc...
So what did I gain? Maybe I was able to scare her or so but I also learned how much of an illusion she has over their A which was contradictory to what my SO says. Would I do it again, probably but would write what I have to say because it was more of a scream and yelling. Would I suggest it to you? It depends really on what you wanted to achieve.
Now we are on the road to recovery because after that incident I do not ever want to talk to her again, I do not want to give her the power to think that I'm still insecure of her. She should feel insecure because my SO is still with me and we are working things out everyday and yes I'm back to my old bubbly sweet self that he fell in love with the first place.
I heard all of your H's comments which is what my SO said everytime I go postal but it is true why do we have to punish them everyday (LBing is a no-no-no as per Dr.Harley)and remind them each time of the A? They also need to forgive themselves and if you don't stop obsessing then you are on the road to D sad to say. I did obsess for a week and then I "chose to be happy!" What that means is I chose not to obsess anymore about the OW, not to obsess about the A, nor my husband's lying but instead focus on bettering myself and feeling good and blessed and appreciate that you still have him and you have the power to make it to work. If not then you know where it leads to.
Feeling, chose to be happy and put a smile in that face, you've taken so much beating and so does he so take a break and enjoy life. There is life after the A!In God's love...

Will pray for you,
BF (betrayed fiancee)
living with SO for 5 years
1 son, a house

Is the OW married?

If so has her spouse been told?

<strong> Bellevue,

Do you think I am a bad person or I am being unreasonable for wanting to do something that I think might help me? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't. But it's not whether you are a bad person or unreasonable for wanting to talk to the OW yourself. The question is, will it help you regain your self-respect and will it help you heal? And, if you obey your husband, and don't contact the OW, do you know for sure that he won't re-start the affair? Do you know for sure that it ended?

That's the thing that haunts me. I wanted the 4 of us (me, H, OW, OWH) to sit down together and clear the air. My H won't agree to it. So it still hangs around the marriage like the smell of burnt cabbage.

Read How Affairs Must End here on this site.

You directed a question to starfish, "what about HIS attitude?" May I butt in? His attitude stinks (see burnt cabbage above.)

Starfish's comment may be more helpful toward rebuilding than mine, however. I support that with: [*]1. It is the betrayed spouse who has to do all the work to recover after the infidelity, [*]2. The only control you have is of your OWN actions; [*]3. You're going to have to Plan A and be a doormat for awhile; [*]4. It's going to feel like you're eating kitty litter.

Not every marriage can endure after infidelity. The people who want to end their marriages after the find out don't seem to come to this site. They retain an attorney and file for divorce. A lot of people who come here do everything according to Harley, and still end up divorced. They learn a lot, and they grow, and they're ready for a better marriage when they move on. But the agony is prolonged for them.

"You know what, maybe what I am looking for is an excuse to give up...maybe if I talk to her and I find out that my husband is still lying to me then that will give me the strength to let go of him....and if he isn't lying then I will be willing to work on our relationship with all my strength... does this make any sense?"

Yes. But if you talk to her, how do you know SHE won't be lying to you? She's unprincipled enough to sleep with a married man, why would she draw the line at lying to his wife in order to keep the affair going? (Remember, he wants you to listen to him and NOT contact her, and has said he'd rather divorce you than have you talk to her. He could just as easily tell her that if you talk to her, she should LIE to you, 'just for now' so that they can continue their affair. )

"We were thinking of attending Retrouvaille the weekend of March 19. If we keep this pace I don't think we'll make it...a friend of mine suggested that I move in with her for this month before we attent the program just to make sure that we give ourselves the chance to make it there. What do you think?"

Retrouvaille will not accept couples if one of them is involved with a third party. The affair has to be broken off before you attend. It isn't a magic pill. By the way, who suggested Retrovaille? You or your H? Have you sent in your payment? Did your H write the check or did you?

I ask because the one who really wants to save the marriage usually does the footwork and the paying. From what you've written, he'd rather protect himself and his privacy and his affair partner than rebuild your marriage.


</strong>[/QUOTE]

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

Hi Feeling so sad,

I don't know your whole story but sure can relate to wanting to speak with the OW. And, I did. I didn't ask H's permission either; I did what I felt I needed to do to get to the truth. When my FWS saw me speaking with her at their jobsite, he literally came in between us to stop the conversation. But by then, and from watching her body language more than listening to her answers, I had the truth to a great extent. I then knew an inappropriate R had occured.

Here's what concerns me--your H's response is just like mines was--BEFORE complete disclosure. He would have rather eaten glass than to "allow" me to speak with the OW because he was still lying to me about what went on.

Interestingly enough, AFTER he finally confessed, months later, he had NO problemo with me even going to OW's house for a surprise visit to her to say my peace. WHY? He had nothing left to hide at that point.

That's what concerns me about your H's reaction. He's running scared...that's what it sounds like to me.

Hello again!...thanks to everyone who has taken the time to share their advice with me.

I just wanted to let you know that I haver read, read, read, thought loooong and hard, listened to many diferent viewpoints and advice and I made up my mind.

I contacted the OW last Friday and she agreed to meet me today. I will talk to her after work today. I can't describe how scared I am feeling right now, and I know I am taking a great risk by doing this but I guess it's a chance I need to take....I am sure after I talk to her it will either be all over between us or like I said before, it will all finally be a part of the past...and I will be ready to move on.

H doesn't know, of course...he would have a fit if he did. I may tell him when I get home tonight depending on how things go.

It just seems to me like it is about time I think about myself first...I haven't done that in almost 10 years...if he won't tell me what I want to know then I will take my chances with the only other person who can... sad isn't it?

Please pray for me...I will check back tomorrow to let you know how it went...

P.S. Retrouvaille was my idea...I called, I asked for the info and he said.."yeah, it sounds good"...although of course now it's totally out of the question. We even had a realtor come look at our house to put it up for sale and began dividing everything in the house...even our pets...what a mess...see why talking to the other woman doesn't seem like to bad an idea? it doesn't seem like things can get any worst!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Feeling very sad:
<strong>
I contacted the OW last Friday and she agreed to meet me today. I will talk to her after work today. I can't describe how scared I am feeling right now, and I know I am taking a great risk by doing this but I guess it's a chance I need to take....I am sure after I talk to her it will either be all over between us or like I said before, it will all finally be a part of the past...and I will be ready to move on. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please come back and post tomorrow.

H doesn't know, of course...he would have a fit if he did. I may tell him when I get home tonight depending on how things go.

It just seems to me like it is about time I think about myself first...I haven't done that in almost 10 years...if he won't tell me what I want to know then I will take my chances with the only other person who can... sad isn't it?

Please pray for me...I will check back tomorrow to let you know how it went...

P.S. Retrouvaille was my idea...I called, I asked for the info and he said.."yeah, it sounds good"...although of course now it's totally out of the question. We even had a realtor come look at our house to put it up for sale and began dividing everything in the house...even our pets...what a mess...see why talking to the other woman doesn't seem like to bad an idea? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you and your H signed a listing agreement?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it doesn't seem like things can get any worst!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, no, but that doesn't mean you can't do a Plan A.

Go to Plan A and read up on it. If things are really going down the tubes, it can help you take care of yourself.

Are you going to get a refund from Retrovaille? Or haven't you paid yet? You should start socking money away as a backup for emergencies, someplace discrete and where hubby and the OW can't get their mitts on it.

Oh, and if you get any credit card applications in the mail in the near future? DO apply for them. They are good for cash advances, and for shopping for necessities if your H becomes foolishly extravagant to please his girlfriend. (Or just decides to go for self-indulgence.)

Sorry.

Hi Feeling Very Sad

I have divorced my WW after I became aware of a long string of extra marital affairs that she had. Like your WS, she also threatened to kill me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> if I ever attempted to contact any of her lovers. She also kept lying to me about her involvement in affairs that she didn't know I knew about when I tested her sincerety while I was assessing my future actions. Her lack of honesty was one of the deal breakers for me. Her excuse later for laying to me about the other persons was that she wanted to protect them. From what?

I just feel that if a WS truly wants to save the M, they will realise that they trashed and humilaited the BS and that they owe it to the BS and to themselfes to do whatever is required to rebuild trust and respect, let alone love, again. That means that if you have the need to talk to the person with whom your spouce had/has an affair, your needs should be respected and not just trashed. Remember the policy of joint agreement? From my viewpoint your spouce is disrespecting your needs AND threatening you in the process. I think you should respectfully tell him that you need to discuss this need with him. If he somehow feels uncomfortable with the idea, he should at least respectfully listen to you and voice his concerns and reasons for his objections. If differeces still persists, he should be willing to come up with acceptable alternatives. His actions of flatly refusing your needs and threatening you with such a serious thing as divorce is a huge sign of disrespect and a big LB on his side.

Doing as one pleases and disregarding the spouce is not the way to go if one wishes to have a happy relationship. It is disrespectfull. In your situation, I think you have a right to talk to whoever you think you should talk to in order to glean the information you need to make an informed decision about your life.

I emailed one of my X Wife's (former?) lovers. He basically denyed that anything inappropriate happened between them and that he knew of nothing. He said the message that reached him was garbled and he couldn't make out what was going on. Hello, how can an email message be garbled? So, be prepaired to be lied to when you meet the Other Person.

In the end, keep your self respect and dignity. If you loose your temper, you make a fool of yourself. Improve yourself and make your WS see what he misses if he looses you.

Good luck!

Well...here I am...

I talked to the OW yesterday. It went very well.
I got all the information that I needed and my mind is made up.

I asked my husband (probably 39) times if the OW had ever been in our house (at this point the only "safe" place that I have left in my world). All the times he said no. He even got mad at me for asking and told me "what do you want me to do? make up a lie and tell you that she was here?"...I just couldn't let go, I looked him right in the eyes and asked him to tell me the truth...over and over...I just felt like he was hiding something...he always said no, she was never here.

Well...surprise!!...she was...she told me yesterday that she pretty much moved into my house with him during three different ocassions when I was away in 1week long business trips. She has sex with my H in my bed, bathed in my bathroom...ate in my kitchen..well, pretty much took over my role when I was away...she even told me that I have very nice dogs!!...

So, I got home and decide to give H one last chance...again, I looked him straight in the eyes and asked him: "was she ever here?"... no.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

That was it. I could feel it right then and there. There were things I could have delt with...but this is just too much. I am not built to handle this much disregard and disrespect for my feelings.

I asked him to leave the house. The house is going on the market this weekend. I am going home to visit with my family next week and when I get back I will file for divorce.

I can't find the man I married anywhere...and even when he is sorry and has apologized for what he did and assures me that he wants to make things better, that he learned his lesson and that this will never happen again....I can't take him back...I would never be able to live my life in peace...I know myself and I will always be wondering...I can never trust him again and I deserve a better life than that.

I love the man with all my heart, but obviously he doesn't love me as much as I love him. And maybe now he is starting to understand what we had...but it's too late for me. I have made up my mind and I am moving on...without him.

Are you sure she wasn't lying to you about things? Embellishing so she could get your husband by default?

I understand you doing this if it is true. Continuous lying like that and total disregard for your feelings and potential pain is just unbelievably wrong.

Take care of yourself and do all you need to do to feel better.

{{{{hugs}}}}

You must be hurting so much. "Your one safe place" - yes, I understand. Nothing of your own privacy was left alone. Violation of your sacred space. He made you into a cipher by allowing the OW to come into the private places in your own home.

There were days that you weren't there. Anyone else would do, anyone else could fill in your spot. Another woman relieved herself in your toilet, bathed in your tub/shower, looked into your vanity mirror to make up, and you scrubbed her filth out of your toilet and from your tub, unknowing. Your husband writhed in pleasure with that woman in your holy of holies, your marriage bed, where you had shared the most private and sacred joys.

Cruelest of pain, because you still love him. It would be so simple if we could just cut off the love after we discover betrayal. I'm so sorry. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hi Feeling very sad,

I'm sorry to hear of the depth of his betrayal as far as him taking the OW to your home while you were away. That never happened to me so I can only imagine the violation you are experiencing from that information.

One thing I want to say is something you probably already know and have considered, but I'll throw it on the table for another look.

It is, sadly, all too common for the WS/FWS to lie to us till the bitter end. Mine did. MIne is a classic conflict-avoider and lying was his way of avoiding confrontation and conflict..which is just terrible since in doing that, no resolution/restoration/intimacy can happen, either.

Just remember this though....you are still in the 'first' stage of this--of discovery and disclosure. This dragged on for me for about 4 months after my initial discovery. I heard the EXACT same line about 'do you want me to make up something/a lie just to make you happy?" Lying through his teeth, he was, even then.

He's also lied to me about other 'smaller' matters since all of this, that I discovered, too. I came to realize that he has issues beig a conflict-avoider and this pattern just doesn't disappear over-night MOST times.

The other day has been 2 solid years for us since he confessed and just TWO days ago, he agreed to read His Needs/Her Needs, reluctantly. He began reading it though and at chapter 3, he told me (while reading) "I think I am going to like this book!"

Here's my point: Since you're still in the initial stages of disclosure, it may not be the time to kick him out or make divorce decisions just yet. Oh yes, it's terrible he continued to lie to you about the sordid details of the goings-on--no doubt about it. And you are hurt, and angry and need to process this new information. This takes time. He needs to see your hurt too! He needs to process the devastation of continued lies, too. He's got issues here.

I don't know, you stated you love him, and I love mine too--and just found that it takes this type of man (the conflict-avoider) extra time for the light to go off in their heads.

Just think about it, okay? I know it's hard, I do. I hope the best for you both.

Hello again everyone...

It's been the hardest and sadest couple of days in my life.

I hadn't told my family what was happening...I always felt that as long as they didn't know I had a chance of making this work (you know how that goes...I didn't want to tell them because I didn't want them to hold a grudge against him if we were to stay together). Well, after the events of Monday night I told my family everything.

They are all very understanding and supportive, and also thousands of miles away from here!!!...my dad convinced me to take it slow and take some time, put some space between us and try to calm down and think things thru.

I am going to be going home next week for some time and when I get back my mother is coming with me to help me out with setting things up. The house is going to be put up for sale this weekend...regardless of what happens I would never be able to live in that house knowing that she was ever a part of it....the house has to go.

When I get back (hopefully we will sell the house by then) I will find a place to live (without him) and hopefully he will agree to do the same.
I thought of filing for divorce then but everyone keeps telling me to give myself sometime...I guess if he still pursues me even after all the material things that we used to share are gone, maybe I'll have a little hope that he was with me for something more than just convenience...maybe he cares for me at least a little...and maybe then I will be ready to give him another chance...

Ok, I am rambling now...I have to go I have an appointment with my therapist...boy she is going to flip when I tell her everything that has happened since I last saw her.

Please pray for me....I feel so weak, I don't have the strength to reject him....I just wish he would go away!!!....

I hope that you do take things slow and easy. I also had a husband lie to me. He had both of his OW here in my home while I was away with the children. The last OW sent me a nasty e-mail after I wrote to her and told her no contact please (after the NC letter my WH wrote to her) and this is what she said to me. (She was having sex with my husband and pretending to be my friend before I found out about them).

"F---- YOU!!!!!!!!!!  Your husband came to me because you are FRIGID!!!      By the way, I really enjoyed F______ your husband in YOUR GAZEBO while you were passed out on the couch.  Also, we had some hellaious oral sex on your sofa while you were curled upstairs in bed in your flannel PJs.
Also, I am not the first person he has stepped out with.  This has occurred several times throughout your marriage.  The first time was shortly after you married because the woman made the comment to your husband "that he was now safe" as far keeping extra-marital affairs quiet.
If you feel the need to vent with me, then by all means do so.  I may have made the choice to be with your husband, but it definitely WAS NOT ONE-SIDED!!!"


I chalked it up to she was trying her best to break up our marriage. I yelled, vented, screamed at my WS "how could you do that in our home, with our children there? How could you have such little respect for me and the children??"

I learned to live with it. I love my husband.

Keep your chin up.

<small>[ March 02, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: heroswife ]</small>

Ok Feeling Sad -

If I close my eyes and listen to your post in my head I can hear myself. It is sooo strange to me to see my exact reaction in someone else. My H also said the whole "do you want me to make something up routine". I knew it though. I could tell he was lying and that's why I continued to ask again and again. I finally told him that I didn't need him to confirm anything for me. That I could tell in the way he treated me. That I knew. At that point he just dropped his eyes and looked at the ground.

Our reactions to our WS's A is identical. I went through the same ups and downs as you are going through. I can tell you that you are feeling embarrassed, betrayed and like you are less of a person. I know the weakness you feel.

If you read some of my other posts you will see that for a long time I would just reitterate that I felt so weak.

It brings tears to my eyes to read your story. On a different level it makes me feel like I'm not so alone. Like there is someone out there that understands.

You can't talk to your family if they have never been through this. They will address your concerns and show that they are hurting because you are hurting but when they try to change the subject or when they complain about someone not taking the trash out you'll want to scream!

Don't you understand I'm dead inside. My life is a mess and you want to talk about someone not taking the garbage out!

That's how I feel. You are not alone.

Give it some time and expect a roller coaster of emotions. Try to avoid LBing if you can...it'll be hard to do. Work on you.

I'll be praying for you.