Hi - I just found out she had a PA with a man she met twice. It's an out of state thing, but she's VERY interested, fantacies... very unseemly.
I had been posting on the EM board, and you folks indicated she was very likely involved with someone. I'm nearly though Tough Love. I'd like to develop a Plan A, but am a bit confused.

Since she is basicly stone cold to me, and has signed D ready to be served. I'm in a weak position to build up any L bank account. I'm trying very hard to modify my behaviour, no sloppyness, angry OB, DJ's etc. I'm also trying to remain aloof as possible. My boys are my achilleis heel. I was on the strict/domineering side with them until about a year ago. I've taken the Dobson's class about Boys and now have a hugely improved relationship with them. She complains that I am a fake.

My question is what signs might one see that it's time to deliver Plan A?

Also, I know she intends to see this person again in October. I learned about the affair looking for records of diverted family monies from a diary. I'd rather not reveal what/how I know with no Love in the Bank.

I am getting IC, and see a Psych. this week for possible medication. Welcome to the no sleep zone.

I can tell she is turning away from God. I've been growing in my faith for the last year or 2 and until this I was feeling like we had a shot.
I'm strangely calm, I do not feel vengeful.
Since I've got a little time I thought I'd ask you all for your opinions, especially you who have walked this rotten trail.

I'm pretty certain that the impact of relealing her secret and 'violation' of diary would result in D process starting. Last week, not knowing of affair I asked her (calmly, in pretty good control, No LB's) to let me develop myself, learn about these issues, and she reluctantly agreed. Still very angry, very much in a fog, that life will be great. She's cut off communications with many friends. I know I'm growing stronger, am not on top of my game now. Timing is the question.
THANKS and may God bless you,
Seeking

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: SeekingBetter ]</small>

Seeking,

Not sure what you mean by "deliver" Plan A. Plan A has several parts. I'm going to give you cerri's guidelines to read and you should go to the mainsite and read about Plan A and B there as well.

cerri's guidelines:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you may be talking about exposure, but I'm not sure. Who knows about this affair? Is the OM married? Have you spoken to his wife? Her parents? Is this a work related affair? If so, you made need to expose this at work as well. Right now you're concerned about her filling a D if you expose....but the biggest threat to your marriage is the affair...not exposure.

Let me ask you a question....because your wife seems to have taken the fast track on this....does she characterize you as "controlling"????

Thanks for your assistance. Wife has big issues with authority. I was authoritative on certain issues, and gradualy let them go. I believe she percieves me as a controlling person. I have always much less caustic tone with her, even in heated arguments. She percieves this to be a method of 'seeming superior'. However since SA and resulting ICY emotionally D status from her I've pretty much started listening very carefully, responding openly and honestly, and in a calm manner. I did sense some respect at points, especially when I allowed that I have faults I'm addressing.

The affair occured in a distant city, an is unlikely to occur again until she has opportunity to got there again, likely not until Fall.
She's kept it very very quiet, but gushes in her diary about how terrific th SA is. No mention of guilt, or potential impact to kids. Some pages indicate willing to 'camp out' and 'ignore' me untill boys are grown and continue to have more SA's... Very dissatisfied with being 40+ and not in a secure relationship with lots of material trimmings.
I love her, but will do anything my Sons. She is very sensitive to opinions of others...

PS- If we got this out in the open between us in counselling I expect we could make progress. I am demonstrating growth in my relationship with my boys, avoiding LB's completely, and doing better at remaining cordial but aloof, not clingy.

Seeking,

Okay, I don't want to discourage you, but I'm going to tell you a few things you need to be aware of. It' is my experience, that when women find their H's controlling...they are much harder to bring home and appear much more determined to get a D once they finally "break loose". Women in general are harder to bring home and 70 percent of the divorces in this country are filed by women....which is significant and evidence of the fact that they have a tendency to "mean" it when they go.

With that in mind....it is essential that you do NOT exhibit any kind of controlling behavior at all!!!! No pressure. Do not expect remorse...wives who feel justified in leaving their husbands simply do not feel this way right away...if ever. Have you looked at Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 list? In situations like this one....I find that it can be very helpful to incorporate into your Plan A because filling needs in this situation can seem stifling to the WS who thinks of it as manipulation. Concentrate completely on stopping LBs....and really try and sort out what those are to your wife. Things that might seem "helpful" to you...will seem "controlling" to her. You are far better off to do nothing than to made her feel as though you are trying to "play" her in any way. Give her some space...get a good counselor trained in MB principals...Harley or cerri...and I don't think you should stay in Plan A very long at all. After you complete the basics....I think Plan B will benefit you more. The timing....should be decided by your coach since this stuff is over counter intuitive...don't trust your instincts...they're usually wrong.

Good Luck

Thanks - I know I've been manipulative in the early years of our marriage. It is a big theme in her (unhappy family as well. I've been trying to do helpful things. I'll have to stop. I'm inclined to make a brief statement along the lines of "I'm not being disrespectful, but I'm sensing we need some space between us right now. I do care."
I think she thinks the very genuine relationship with the children is window dressing to manipulate. Nothing could be further from the truth.

How would I get a Coach? Would this be a local person? I'm pretty shot - no sleep.

PS - I know who the OM is and could get ahold of him if need be. Seems likely that he was just sampling a falling flower, and might steer clear of Kids, and other entanglements.

Sorry for the rough editing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm hearing Plan A or B may be the last straw if I go to fast especially if I expose her widely. I'm pretty confused. She'll be out of town with family next week.
THANK YOU,

Seeking,

K buddy...you're operating like a loose cannon with no real direction here. Which is normal considering what's happening in your life. So first off...let's find you a great coach. If you want to contact the Harley's call 1 (888) 639-1639. I highly recommend Penny Tupy (cerri) who was trained by Willard Harley himself and has her own site 877.416.2657. Either of these are great choices and will done right over the phone. You can usually get an appt. with Penny faster and she has a great support system in place to help throughout. I actually mentor couples in crisis for her when they need lots of attention.

Now go out today and buy the book "Surviving an Affair". You are making huge leaps in logic and interpreting these plans incorrectly. The book will explain them in far better detail.

In the meantime...especially for spouses that have been controlling...follow MWD's 180 list:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having a blueprint to follow will help keep you from making mistakes. Right now...it is better to do NOTHING than to do the wrong thing. So if you are in doubt...do nothing.

I know you're hurting...make an appt. with the doctor and get some anti-depressants. Most of us needed it right in the beginning when we couldn't eat or sleep. Won't change you....just give you and edge over the pain okay?

Sorry your hurting. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Star*fish - Thanks. Appt. w/ Dr. is set. Printed 180... See several minor things I can adjust.
Q: I can not afford coach at this time. I will save and see what happens unless you have another suggestion.
Q: WW uses the household computer, common password. Should I let her know I'll not be monitoring it? Let her know she could set up additional email w/password? Just stop looking at it and hope she will notice (not likely). She knows I was watching sent mail last month : (
I'll get the book pronto. I'll also arrange to be pretty scarce... It is so hard to watch the kids twisting in the wind. I guess even acknowledging that is showing weekness and counterproductive.
Thanks,
SeekingBetter

Seeking,

I'm glad you're seeing the doctor. If you really don't have the money for coaching (do try to find it somewhere when you can) then use the board to get help in the interim. I think it would help for you to get some advice from some men here who will be good guides. Cerri is unlikely to get to this board right now...she's just too busy....but if she sees this, I'm sure she'll comment. In the meantime....Post to a couple of fellas I'm going to suggest.

Find K if you can...he is fantastic. Just Learning, Toomuchcoffeeman, Mike C2, 2long, Wat, John 39....or just say "Old timers and Vets, need solid advice" There are a bunch of really good men who have been exactly where you are right now and it will help. I'm here on and off....and I'll try and check in too.

Good luck my friend. Try to rest okay?

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Thanks - I'm still in a bind here. She thinks I'm just dealing with her filing D which I was dealing with last week. I found out about the affair via personal journal... I'm stuck playing Cool Hand Luke for a while? Last week she held off having me served when I asked for time to explore alternatives, and consider impact on children, etc. So she's thinking I'm 'fixxing' the marriage... It's a ticking bomb... I'll be calmer at home... you all are helping with perspective, it's such a stinkin' mess.

Starfish has given you some good advice. I especially like the advice to do nothing if you are not sure what to do. I had to learn to do nothing at times, and it was a hard lesson to learn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Am I right in thinking that your wife does not know that you know about the affair? She thinks you are only concerned about fixing the marriage, but have no knowledge of the affair. Correct?

Of course, if you fix the marriage, the affair becomes a non issue I would hope.

JustinExplorer -
I just got server. Wife and children out away from house. Not sure when they will return. Very sad day. No sleep for days. She's away from the house for a week starting tomorrow.

Yes- You are correct, she has no idea I know she had a EA/PA with another in November. Nothing now, but she wants more, very, very much. Then is no contact right now. I'm not snoopping on her. She believes I am. She doesn't think I respect her. I'm even thinking she thinks she's doing all 4 of us a big favor.

I'll need to get to a Lawyer this week. I still need advice on this thread. What if anything to do. She things I just manipulate and bait and switch. I did avoid conflicts for some years. Since Dec 1 I've decided to let my actions speak loader than words, but as described abover I'm prevented from meeting any EN's; except kindness with the children. She thinks that's window dressing also.... I LOVE them, and will not falter there. She is a stuborn lady when agitated.

Any advice appreciated. THANKS!
seekingBetter

I ment I just had the Process Server visti with D papers. ; ( The saddest day outside her Mom's funeral. At least she is alive and one way or another we'll get though to better days.
GOD - I need your strength! I've noticed a slight easing of the urge to LB, actually a large easing of LB feeling. I'm just so shook up that I'm realy wanting to hover, or DO SOMETHING, but with your help I'll resist.
Feel free to add advice - I'm at a complete loose end right now. I see the R. for Med's on Tuesday. What I'd give for sleep!
Thanks again,
SeekingBetter,

JustinExplorer - You are correct - She does not know I know she was unfaithful.

She feels very justified in her actions, but craves moral cover during 'escape'. So I'm really having a tough time figuring out what to do. If I don't have contact how will get an opportunity to make LB deposits? She's away with family this week. I'm taking her to the airport.
I'll discus separation with IC next week.
I had a tough day Sunday getting served with the D papers. She kindlly took the children out of the house for an hour. She did engage in a conv. and stated that she would not do anything to save 'us' there is no us. She also said that she thought it would be a miracle if we got together.

I expressed my understanding of her concern, and assured her that I am not in a position to demand of others, but will be making changes. If she likes the trend I'd welcome her to rebuild, but I do not intend to return to the old status quo we had either. She is very torn and hopeless rather than confused.

Is separation a good strategy at this point?
I'm thinking that the affair was a one time episode, and I may need to humble myself, and ignore it - a battle scar it you will. I have no need to hurt of punish this woman. I want to get the anger level down, demonstrate my growing skills, enjoy my sone, and start building a GOOD relationship...
All the best - I am listening. I got His needs Her needs, and will be studying hard this week.
SeekingBetter

Why doesn't she know what you know? What hope do you have of rebuilding this relationship when this hasn't been confronted?

Starfish - I believe bringing it up now would look like an authority scolding her. She felt justified. I have no LB deposits to draw on. I'd like to draw her into the recovery process and feel there was a violation of privacy by snooping in her diary. She isn't carrying on an affair, she had sex with someone after a drinking party with her college girlfreinds, and enjoyed it. No further contact, but seh wants a fulfilled life. It seems like a time to listed, demonstrate I do not need to control. She is a secret keeper. She would have to feel very safe again to share.
I'm back on the 180 - Getting served really suprized me, especially with her leaving town today for a week.

Hi - THanks everyone. I was unexpectedly asked to drive her to the airport for a scheduled visit with her Dad to eal with her mom's estate. I got up early, dressed nicer that necessary and left for work before anyone was up, as I've been doing to reduce contact. I left a note as to when I'd pick her up. No flowers, just a very nice, polite, well dressed me. I treated her like a lady and... She behaved like one. She volenteer more at the airport waiting for the flight. She said she felt I was "getting somewhere". I replied (without sarcasm)I will get where I need to go either way. I'll be ther for my children as well. I allowed that her actions and the priorities I'm hearing you care about (children, self, me) seem not to be aligned. I offerd to share my thought on where I am going with my life when and if she'd like. We didn't dwell on this topic, and otherwise it felt like a first date. I've got a copy of the D papers handy to keep me focused; It is only one day I know. She called upon arrival. I'm still seeing a Lawyer this week, head shrinker today. The children are wonderful.
I'm wondering about how long to keep her at arms length. I did say I'm not interested in returning to the status quo, the way our marriage was operating in the last several years. I stated politely that change would be required by both of us. She took the information in without protest; a start perhaps.
I've got time to read and plan this week and will probably stay apart for some weeks until we can introduce an plan and intruduce soem POJA's to try out the process. It feels good to meet some EN's and have some communication. I'm reading this telling myself 'steady man' the crosshairs are just settleing on you NOW!" There are acres of hell to be turned over before planting much here but the ground seems to be warming.
I believe I will not feel safe returning without some medical attention/evaluation of her.

I had to schedule appt. w/ Lawyer yesterday. She's back in her shell, and I attempted to engage her in conv she didn't want. An LB - I had been doing pretty well. Oh, well I'm back in 180, and will invest in relationship with my boys and others. I'm enjoying paying close attention to others needs. It is refreshing to see folks recognize and respond to positive changes. I did admit it seems un natural to honor my wife by keeping my distance, but that I will do it.
I've got a post on GQ with more detail.
My boys both won top slots 1st place for ages) in Pinewood Derby. Big race is tomorrow. all 4 of us going. I'll be busy tonight ensuring that all details are attended to so the boys can focus on fun.