I didn't want to add this to the other thread, it was way off topic.<P>Part of my anger stems from the fact that supposedly I did the "right" thing by confessing. However, all it did was unleash a hellstorm of hatred from my ex. I took it because I felt so guilty. After he got tired of punishing me, he dumped me. His life is going great now. He's dating, has a job he likes, plus he hasn't had to take any responsibility for the destruction of our marriage. The OM is now engaged and apparently not suffering one bit after destroying my marriage. I'm the one that is suffering because I was stupid enough to confess, that is how I see it.<P>I haven't dated since my divorce, and I've had plenty of offers. I'm not bragging when I say that heads turn wherever I go, and I don't dress "sexy". When men come up to talk to me, I just shy away. I don't ever want to share myself with another man for the rest of my life, and that makes me sad. It makes me mad that my ex is doing so "wonderful" after what he did to me. And because he (supposedly) didn't cheat on me, everyone thinks he's just a prince.

TheStudent:<P>Well. Believe it or not, I understand how you feel. It's natural to believe that the actual confession is what messed up your marriage, but you <I>know</I> that isn't true. In fact, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that it's not your affair that messed up your marriage. That was just the straw that broke the camel's back.<P>Nothing I can say will really make you feel better. Your marriage is over, and that's a very hard thing to deal with. <P>I still believe that confessing was the right thing to do, and here's why: your H deserved the right to decide whether or not he wanted to stay with you in light of the truth. To deny him that right would have been selfish. Clearly there were problems in your marriage that LED to the affair. That's almost ALWAYS the case.<P>Your affair was a big mistake. From your H's point of view, THIS was the justification for getting out of a marriage that he didn't WANT to stay in. I'm convinced of that. If he truly loved you and wanted to be with you, he would have worked through the difficulties. I'm living proof that it can be done.<P>You unwittingly gave him the perfect escape, whether he knew he wanted it or not. YOU did the "bad" thing. YOU betrayed him. Of course things are going great for him. He got out of a troubled marriage without having to take any of the blame. Nobody will fault a betrayed spouse for filing for divorce. But these are all people who don't know the dynamics of an affair. They assume it's the end result, not a symptom of the larger issue.<P>You can't change what other people think. To some, you'll always be the bad guy in your marriage. That's the price you'll have to pay for making that decision to betray. But . . .<P>You don't have to let that control your own self-image. We, as a society, worry WAY too much about what other people think of us. You know in your heart that your confession was the right thing to do. Your situation <I>has</I> worked out for the best, whether you really know it yet or not. Did you really want to stay married to a man who would desert you when things got tough? You deserve better than that. You deserve better because you are repentent for your betrayal, and because you have learned something from it.<P>If your Ex-H can't give you that, then that's HIS demon to deal with. I suspect he's probably being eaten alive by his anger and his unforgiving attitude, whether he displays it or not.<P>You need to concentrate on YOU. Don't let your guilt and shame control you. You made a decision to cheat, and now you have to live with the consequences. Sometimes the consequences are worse than imagined. However, the hallmark of true repentence is a willingness to accept those consequences and realize that we have no one to blame but ourselves. THEN, we go out and make the best of the situation and learn from it, and decide that we're going to take our lives in a new direction.<P>Your divorce is a new opportunity for you. I know it doesn't seem like it. However, you get out of life what you put into it. You can either sit around and rehash your decisions and play the "what if" game, or you can put it behind you, learn from your mistakes, and go out and find a NEW life, knowing that you're wiser for having tried and failed.<P>Happy Holidays, TheStudent. I hope you'll think long and hard about it. You're too bright to waste your life beating yourself up for a mistake.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

TheStudent,<P>I agree with everything Lonestar said. I want to add to one point though. Your exH is not really doing well even though he seems to be. He has not learned from this experience. He will most likely get married again someday and have another failed marriage. He will only be doing well when he can forgive you and ask for your forgiveness for how he has treated you. The same goes for the OM. <BR>From what I have read in your other posts, I see you as an intelligent, honest, caring, loving individual. You will see your way through this some day. Time will heal. If you haven't already, might I suggest you get two books for yourself. One is called, "How Good Do We Have To Be?" by Harold Kushner. The second is, "Forgive and Forget" by Lewis B. Smedes. My wife and I have found them to be very helpful. Merry Christmas. <p>[This message has been edited by TCL (edited December 23, 1999).]

yes, I'm living with the consequences. You said:<BR>"That's the price you'll have to pay for making that decision to betray." <P>I've always said that it was a mistake to cheat. If I could have taken it back, I would have. It would have been smarter to just kill myself rather than suffer this long,slow,painful death I'm suffering now. However, my next mistake was being stupid enough to believe our marriage was strong enough to survive my confession. Harley says a marriage that doesn't have total honesty is not a marriage worth keeping. That is very easy to say from someone who is happily married. Does he have any clue what it is like to be totally and completely alone? I think NOT!!!!!!!! Does he have any idea what it is like to live with the shame and scorn of all around you? HARDLY!<P>First, I'm sorry I'm so angry. But please explain to me why his needs must be more important than mine. You say that keeping my infidelity from him would be selfish. I won't even begin to go into all of the selfish things he has done, but again, somehow all of that is washed away in light of my OVERWHELMING SIN. I just don't get it. <P>I could go back even farther than my affair and say I'm living with the consequences of being stupid enough to beleive that anyone could make a life-time commitment to me when I got married in the first place. And yes, I do have to live with what other people think of me. I'm not dating because I don't want to explain my two divorces. He betrayed me too, but in our culture, as long as he didn't sleep with anyone else, then he is ok. Look at the advice given Lacee. Her husband beats the crap out of her, but she "owes" him the truth. I still don't get it.<P>I have accepted the consequences, actually much more than my share. I'm cursed to live out the rest of my days with this horrible shame that I can't share with anyone except the faceless people on some website.<P>I've vowed to be celibate for life. No man will ever touch me again. No man will ever have the opportunity to abuse me, or hurt me, or judge me ever again. There is no need to remind me of the consequences. I live with them everyday. <P>TCL, I just saw your post.<BR>he did call me and apologize once. but here is the problem. It is easy to say the words "I'm sorry",but much,much more difficult to actually follow through and repair the damage one has caused. His apology was only his attempt to make himself feel better, nothing more. I stood by him through all his pain and anger because of this belief. I could have very easily said "I cheated on you, I'm sorry, and now I want a divorce." I didn't do that. The reason why I'm so pissed is because the world seems to reward those who have no conscience, who can just walk away without any remorse, like my ex and the OM. Life is great for them because they have oh-so-easily moved on without troubling their conscience much. Oh, and also because of the stupid women they are with who believe their stories. I was one of those stupid women, but never again.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 23, 1999).]

The Student,<P>First, the most important question: How did the qualifiers go? Well, I hope. Now down to the post crash analysis. It is hard to add anything to what Lone Star and TCL have said, but a few things come to mind.<P>First, no one comes out of a failed marriage without paying a price. You know the price you have paid, but your H knows that he lost you to another man. While the divorce can be blamed on the affair, the state of the marriage that led to the affair is both of your faults and he lost. He knows that and it will haunt him for the rest of his life.<P>So if revenge is what you are seeking, you have it. You got to him in a place that will never totally heal and the fact that he could not forgive and try and save the marriage is the definite proof of how you got to him.<P>If revenge is not what you are seeking, then why are you worrying about how well he is doing? You are in a PhD program, when you graduate from that you will be a changed person. The man you marry, and I am convinced you will find someone again, will be marrying a woman who has a different perspective on life than the woman that existed before. <P>As I recall you have been on both ends of the infidelity issue. You know your exH is not getting off free. You know you have learned many things: some pleasant, more unpleasant. You also know had you not told your exH the truth you would be in a marriage that was not working. How would you have fixed it, with this secret? You could not use it to motivate changes in exH. You could have changed because of it, but you would have to know that your were always lying to your exH. Exactly where would you be?<P>TheStudent, take care of business. Graduate from school, and then you can start to live again. School is not a place (my opinion) to be worrying about marriage. It is an artifical place with very strange perspectives. It is a place to learn not live. Once you graduate, life will come to you again; Jobs, people, romance, etc. Please quit worrying about things you cannot control or affect. You will do fine, you were honest and you did your best. <P>I can tell you as a man (or just a person) that people make mistakes but if they are honest about them and learn from them, it means to me that of all the things I could worry about, I have to worry about a person making that mistaken again, much less.<P>Please have confidence in yourself. You did the right thing and it seems from this end of the telescope that things ended as they needed to, given the state of the marriage and the people involved. Patience and confidence young lady. You will do very well.<P>God Bless You<P>JL<P>

My H is the betrayer, but I do not completely agree with Harley's "total honesty" concepts. I think that the emphasis should be on not doing anything that you would be tempted to lie about, rather than on confession after the fact. If my H had ended his affair, I think I would have preferred to never find out about it.<P>I certainly do understand how unfair it is that those who can walk away without remorse are apparently rewarded - that is exactly what my H has done. From my perspective there have been few consequences for him - his father accepts the OW, and he has cut himself off from everyone else who knows about the situation. He doesn't have to worry about shame or scorn, because hardly anyone knows about the affair. If anyone were ever to ask why we are separated, I am sure he would give them the same story he gave the kids - that we "didn't get along". As long as he stays with the OW, everything will be fine for him. If he were to find someone else, I suppose explaining why he left his six children might be a bit awkward - but there are plenty of people out there who don't care. And I understand what it is like to be alone - I am not totally alone, since I have children, but I have no adult family anywhere nearby.

JL,<BR>You made me laugh! Oh yes. I remember you have been there with the school stuff. I did fine on the quals, 2 out of 3 which is considered very good. Almost nobody passes all three the first time, and considering what I've been through this year, a pretty worthy accomplishment. Actually, my life is full of worthy accomplishments in the work world. I just wish my personal life was up to par.<P>you said:<BR>TheStudent, take care of business. Graduate from school, and then you can start to live again. School is not a<BR> place (my opinion) to be worrying about marriage. It is an artifical place with very strange perspectives. It is a<BR> place to learn not live. <P>You are so right! You sound like my dad. I'm having such a hard time focusing on this thing I've sacrificed so much for. Our real problems didn't begin until I decided to go back to school full-time. Graduation is a long ways off for me (about 2-3 years-I just started the PhD program). I'm also living under this cloud that, because I'm female, the more successful I become, the less attractive I am as a partner. My ex certainly proved this. Doesn't this sound pathetic? I never considered myself to be one of those people whose life revolves around the opposite sex. Heck, I sure wouldn't be in engineering if I had counted on that growing up. But as I get older and older, I'm forced to acknowledge what I've lost a husband with every degree I've acquired. I lost my first husband while I was getting my Bachelor's degree. My second husband is now a casualty of grad-school. <P>Here's something funny: While I was lamenting the choice of dating options during my undergrad days my friend said about the guys in engineering school....<P>The odds are good, but the goods are odd. <P>Nellie1,<BR>I don't have any children and wish I did. In my case, my affair was very short. The times I had spent with the OM before it became sexual were never lied about. He was someone I studied with and I had always carried around a cell-phone. My H was still in another state selling our house at the time. I had not lied. I made the dreadful mistake of being in the OM's apartment when I told him we could no longer be friends and study together and why. I thought I was safe, because I had been there before and he had never laid a hand on me. Well, you know what happened next. I did cut off all contact the very next week. Since it was so short, and I had not told a soul, there was every reason to believe my H would never have found out. My H was absolutely the first person I had ever told. I kept it in for 6 months prior to my confession.<P>I'm sorry you are so alone. I'm glad you have your children to comfort you. I'd like to think there is such a thing as justice too. Lots of people probably can chuckle at my misfortune and call it justice, but they don't know what I've been through. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 23, 1999).]

Oh Dear!<P>TheStudent, I certainly didn't mean to imply that his needs are more important than yours. They most certainly are not. However, you hit it right on the head that in our society today, your "sin" is more glaringly obvious than his.<P>In all honesty, I think HIS sin was more damaging to your marriage than yours was. Yours was just more obvious to those around you. How can you quantify what HE has done to you? Society can't "see" his words. They can't feel the sting of his neglect. They <B>can</B> see your infidelity.<P>It's your misfortune that you chose a more glaringly obvious sin.<P>But, that's beside the point. What I "hear" in your post is bitterness -- an anger at yourself for telling the truth. It's not the truth-telling (nor the infidelity, for that matter) that killed your marriage. It's your H's unwillingness or incapability to forgive your mistake.<P>You may have betrayed, but you came to him with the truth and with complete remorse for your actions. That is the right thing to do because it allows both of you to move to the next step -- either the marriage will dissolve or it will be strengthened -- but that choice is not up to YOU alone.<P>I submit to you that your marriage was headed toward failure even before your affair. I know mine was. Petunia and I had stopped communicating. We'd found ways to avoid being together. It was all starting to fall apart, and we were too scared of confronting each other with the truth to do anything about it. So what happened? I turned to work and studying for the bar to fill my void. She turned to OM.<P>The difference between your situation and mine is simply the difference between your H and me. I didn't want to quit, and your H <I>did</I>. As bad as if feels, it was still <I>HIS</I> decision to make.<P>If you hadn't told him about the affair, I bet your marriage would have continued to spiral downward. Maybe I'm wrong, but I really don't think so. Do you think he would have reacted any differently if he'd found out on his own years later? I bet not.<P>You've got to move on and stop blaming yourself. Your Ex-H is doing enough blaming of you. You don't need to add to the burden.<P>Ask yourself these tough questions:<P>1) Did I <I>try</I> to save my marriage?<BR>2) Who made the decision to file for divorce?<BR>3) Am I truly sorry for what I did?<P>If you'd never told him of the affair, don't you think it would have been bothering you for the rest of your life? Don't you think it would somehow cheapen your relationship? After all, <B>you</B> would be deciding what was best for him to hear. That's not right. <B>HE</B> needs to make that judgment for himself.<P>I think most betrayers who are honest about their affairs and who's spouses choose to leave them anyway are upset because things didn't turn out like they'd hoped. They don't realize that things turned out that way because it's the way it has to be. <P>When you make a decision to betray, you have to be prepared to live with the consequences, and the danger of Dr. Harley's approach is that it gives some people false hope that if they confess, things will turn out the way they want them to. It doesn't always work that way. But, I submit to you that if you're honest about it, things WILL work out the way that's best for you. Either your spouse will stay and rebuild a stronger marriage, or your spouse will leave, and you will have removed yourself from a marriage that didn't have the bond and the strength to survive. <P>Either way YOU are the winner. You may not see that now, but it's true.<P>Please, stop beating yourself up. Let people judge you if they must, but you know in your heart that your post-affair actions were taken because you LOVE your Ex-H and you wanted to set things right. The fact that he chose NOT to work it out speaks more to HIS lack of commitment than your affair speaks about yours. At least you were willing to accept your mistake and try to make it up to him. He consciously chose NOT to give you that opportunity. Just as your affair was YOUR decision alone, his choice to quit on you was HIS decision alone.<P>You're too smart to believe otherwise.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<p>[This message has been edited by Lone Star (edited December 23, 1999).]

The Student,<P>I do love that statement. I will have to remember it. You should go into physics if you want to fully appreciate that statement. My wife claims we are all very odd. . You are making an assumption that you will only meet engineers when you graduate. Not so! What you will be doing is traveling on a different level either in a company, the government sector, or university. <P>I have to say that one of the few bright things I did, was not to marry until I had completed everything but the dissertation. I had seen so many of my classmates marry in school and then divorce when they got out of school. It seems that really the only thing they had in common was taking tests and doing papers. When they got out they found that they had almost no interests in common. <P>School also puts some very unique stresses on people and if both partners are not into it, then it is very difficult (as you know).<P>TheStudent, please see if you can get rid of the anger. It seems to me you simply married too young considering your life's aspirations. Accept that and you will find that your time will come. I would recommend that you enjoy the ability to date and meet new men. Don't get serious just test the waters and have some fun. There is no need to get further along than that and there is certainly no need for any of them to know your lifes story at this point.<P>I hate to admit the possibility, but I suspect that I AM old enough to be your father, so that is probably why I may sound like him. But we have seen quite a bit and data does help the decision process. So to the deep recommendations.<P>1) Go knock off that last section of the qualifier.<P>2) Consider yourself lucky. You can pursue you goals without the drag of a failing marriage.<P>3) Enjoy your position in life; it will only get better.<P>4) Forgive yourself; you are thinking worse of yourself than anyone else is.<P>5) Remember: "The best revenge is a life well lived".<P>6) Have a Merry Christmas and a Great Y2K .<P>God Bless You<P>JL

The Student,<P>The dreaded double post. <p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 23, 1999).]

Hey, how did I miss you guys? 3 of my favorite people!<P>I was just quickly surfing thru MB and I saw your new thread. Wowwa..had to jump on...then read lots of what you all have been posting lately. And, if it wasn't for your new post I would have missed you. Geez, this place is getting so big.<P>Dear Student, it's hard to explain how badly I feel that you are hurting. You seem like such a neat person and surely didn't deserve this. It's just not fair, somehow.<P>Did you do the right thing by telling? Will you ever really know? Years and years ago, Suse didn't tell me. And, it caused LOTS of damage to her self-image, lots of damage to our marriage. Then again, we survived for another day. Survived. Not contentedly. <P>It took me having a brief affair to zap us both into action to save what we had. It took me having an affair to finally resolve the things that happened between us for over 15 years. And, we both still deal with a bit of the fallout of all those decisions.<P>Naturally, Suse and I have both mused over "what would have happened if...". If she had told me years ago, would I have done what your H did? Yes, there's some possibility of it. Would I have embraced her 14 years earlier than when it finally happened? Who knows.<P>Summary? I do tend to believe that we survived because we deep-down truly wanted to. And... honesty is needed in order to have the kind of relationship we want. Yes, that's why Suse felt so awful for all those years. She felt she couldn't be honest. She was even advised by our counsellor not to tell.<P>Know how she feels today? She should have told me. It would have been better for her self-esteem. Even if we didn't make it.<P>I think you did the right thing. I agree with Lone Star. Your infidelity was only a symptom of the problems in your relationship. If your husband couldn't face up to that... perhaps it is better he left. As difficult as that may be to accept.<P>Dear Student... I believe you are a very, very fine person. You did something which you badly regret. But you are NOT a bad person. You need pay no penance. You need not whip yourself. And, don't give up on seeking a relationship with someone who can truly appreciate you. Someone who is strong enough to accept you. And, not be threatened by your strength.<P>There are some decent guys out there. Not everyone with XY chromes is a crass Neanderthal. It may take you awhile. Yep, you may have to grieve what you've lost for awhile longer. But, don't give up. You've got too much to share with someone. And, someone needs what you offer.<P>You take care.<P>And, "hi" to both LS and JL. Haven't seen you guys lately. Things okay?

Hi everyone,<BR>Thank you so much for your reassurances. Your insights have helped me a great deal. I too wonder why I'm so concerned about my ex-H's success. I suppose I'm not above wanting revenge, or wanting him to hurt like I'm hurting now. I'm happy for all of you that you've been able to restore your marriages through all you've been through.<P>I haven't given up on men as people. I don't think they are all neanderthals. I work with at least 95% men and have a few I'm happy to call my friends. Still, I'm convinced I have more to offer men (as people) if my relationships with them never progress beyond the level of friendship. Celibacy is just another lifestyle choice, one I think will become increasingly more common as the threats of STD become more prevalent and the trend in our society encourages more throw-away relationships. For instance, my sister never cheated on anyone. After her divorce, she dated some guy for awhile, who said he loved her. He gave her herpes, even though they used a condom, then he dumped her. That is not going to happen to me.<P>Celibacy is a hard choice for me, because I've always been a very sensual person. I have to believe that my energies can better be directed elsewhere though. Celibacy is like giving up smoking. Perhaps terrible withdrawal at first, but eventually one simply forgets what it is like and forms new life-habits in place of the old habits. In one way, this lifestyle choice of mine IS motivated by fear, but I think it is a healthy fear. They say that the definition of insanity is to keep doing things the same way hoping to get different results. My results with men have always been the same, so I'm doing something different. Actually, I'm approaching this from a point of arrogance as well. Dating is such a drag. You go out. You tell your story, they tell you theirs. They call, they don't call. Whatever. Then they try to get you in bed for some recreational-tide-me-over-till-something-better-comes-along fling. That is part of the reason I got married, because I couldn't stand dating. Anyway, those days are gone, and you're right, it doesn't do me any good to lament about the past or what I "should" have done. <P>I haven't lost my faith in marriage, for other people that is. I'm planning on adopting a child after I graduate. Someday I hope she will be happily married.