SVB,
I looked into it back during discovery in Winter 2002 so unfortunately I don't remember. Look in yellow pages or look on the web in your state. If you're in southern Ca. I can give you the contact info.

If you look on the web make sure you erase the sites from History in case your H knows how to check.

To erase go to Tools in your browser. Drop down to Internet Options. On the General tab. Clear History and delete Files and Cookies. To check to make sure this worked press Control & H simultaneously and the History box will open. You can then hand delete anything referencing PI.

Should also probably do this for MB pages as well.

cwmac

I thought that I would post and give a little update on my situation.

Things have been steadily getting better. My H has really been surprising me lately. He has been happier than usual, more talkative, and more attentive to my needs. He even called me at work last Friday to ask if I had class last Saturday (he was off from work), and if not, he suggested we go see a movie. I got home from work Friday night and he suggested that we go out to dinner! This is after 4 months of NOTHING.

Although this is all very encouraging to me, I still have many moments of doubt. For instance, last Saturday, his day off, he decided to go shopping for a new bike. When I asked if I could go with him, he said "no." He was back in two hours. He didn't buy a bike, but he did stop at a store to pick up a couple of things. I know,it could be nothing.

My problem is that I feel that I will always have doubt at the back of my mind. I don't know if I can ever trust him again after all of his lies. Although I feel better in general (my new ADs help, I think, along with his encouraging behavior), I still feel anxious sometimes, and sad that I might never feel the same love and trust towards my H that I felt when we were first married. It is heartbreaking to me.

Hiring a PI might give me some answers and ultimate peace, but I checked on the rates, and I think it would take me forever to squirrel away that kind of money for one day of trailing him.

I guess all I can do is just take things one day at a time for now.

SVB,
Sorry to hear that the PI won't work because it would give you peace of mind if he isn't having an affair.

He could be innocent. Or...remember one of the signs of an A is a noticable change in behavior. From my readings I've seen numerous hints that seem to be opposites. For example one of the hints is a change in sexual behavior ie more sex than usual or less sex than usual are both hints. The point is the drastic change in behavior.

Most people don't change overnight without a reason. Sorry if I'm jaded towards presuming guilt over innocence.

Also why wouldn't he let you go on the bike shopping expedition? What activities do the two of you do together?

cwmac

I think you're right, cwmac. I know I was suspicious before when he shut me out of his life for 4 months, but now I am STILL suspicious now that he's doing a total turnaround. It does seem odd, in a way. Why the sudden turnaround after I confronted him? I've confided in one of my friends about my situation, and she thinks it's sort of odd as well. She actually pointed it out, but I didn't want to think about it at the time. Again DENIAL.

What makes me feel worse now is that I've just come home from work after his day off, and sure enough there are 48 miles on his car. I swore I wouldn't ask him about his day, but I did. He said he went looking for bikes again. Uh-huh. Of course he is freshly showered and doing laundry.

I am severely disappointed because I thought, maybe deep in my heart, that his turnaround was sincere. Now I am back at square one. Especially since, for a week, I hadn't noticed any extra miles on his car. (two weeks ago). I didn't check this past week (until this morning) and I noticed a TON of miles on the car. I just can't figure out when he went- except for maybe Monday night when I went to class. And now his secret expedition today.

I guess I can't let my guard down again. I'll have to keep checking up on him, as much as I can, anyway.

It makes me sad about the bikes. We used to go bike riding together all the time, especially when we were dating. Now it seems to be something that he wants to do by himself. I told him I'd like to go shopping with him because I'd like a new bike as well. He said that I would never use the bike. I told him we can go on bike trips together, like we used to, but he just blew me off.

Like I said, this is all so heartbreaking.

So what do I do? How do I get him to confess, or stop? Do I just plan A forever until I find more evidence? Part of plan A is making your H cut off all contact w/OW, and exposing the A, and I can't do that. What if he never comes clean and I never find anything? I can't live like this forever.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>

I am not sure what you can afford, but there is a device called "GPS ON Record" at gpsonsale.com that you can hide in a car and play back every where the car went, how long it was parked and what speed it drove at. I will play back trip on a city map. Records 300 hr of driving and batteries are good for 30 days. $299. You might find it on e-bay for less. Or sell it after you are finished with it on ebay.

Good luck at getting some resolution.

Just read your whole thread. Your situation has some red flags that I would like to address.

My fwh was a serial cheater, a skirtchaser, for many years of our marriage. I didn't know. I was uncomfortable with his friendliness and charm with women, but he had me convinced that I was just a jealous person. I felt confused much of the time. He seemed to love me and even bragged about what a great marriage we had.

In retrospect my confusion came from denying the reality that lay before me, too horrible for my mind to consider as truth. When I finally learned the whole of what he had done, what he was, I was blown away by the level of deception, from a "good" man.

Here's the reality: men who charm women are after sex. Flirtation has one goal...sexual attention and affirmation. It's a sign that the spouse is willing to cross boundaries meant to protect the marriage relationship.

And here's a scary thought that never occurred to me--they act even more free and flirtatious when their spouse is not there. I assumed my husband was the same person when I wasn't there, but his flirtations were even more outrageous in my absence, thus the gushing of his female co-workers.

Your husbands moods towards you could reflect his desire to have an affair and a marriage too, or his affair could be going particularly well and his happiness about that could be spilling over into the marriage.

We took many family vacations that I thought were fine while he was pining away for ow.

I don't know if your husband is having an affair, but from everything you have said, I would be extremely suspcious. You are not jealous or crazy. There are too many signs to ignore.

His lack of concern for your fears and his non-accountability for his time/miles are signs of a selfish "single-minded" spouse.

Can you rent a car on his day off? Borrow one from your girlfriend who knows your suspicions? Don't go to school or work and follow him. Get a floppy hat and some sunglasses. See where he goes. You need to know the truth. He is not open enough not to have something to hide.

I know you value your marriage above your schooling and your job. Now might be a time to put some other things on the back burner so he doesn't have so much free time without you. It's a license to do whatever.

If he is just letting you hang yourself with your spoken insecurities, then he is at least a heartless person.

I know I have given you a lot to think about. But I hope I can save you some of the years I suffered. Our marriage is now in a better place but it has been very difficult. Better to know all than to allow all.

I have to say that I completely agree with what Realychk said. You need to know the truth, and the signs are obvious of an affair or affairs. It might seems like we do not want you off the hook. If he gets away with it, you do not know what might be coming soon.. a baby? a sudden break down from him? What about your trust? At the moment you are so suspicious of him, yet you are scared to find out the truth. It seems like you do not want to know. You want to look at the dust and put it under the carpet.. too easy on him. TOO HARD ON YOU! You have to do your own investigation, if you find nothing.. continue plan A.. even during your investigation. WS likes to have their cake and it too.. the more you are friendly with them, the more they are happier with the OW and it continues.
I tried for a week, to ignore him with the OW and acted like it was just the two of us, but I couldn't help but feel like something just WASN"T RIGHT! I tried not to look at his cellphone.. everything, but I just HAD TO! and I keep discovering and discovering he was still in contact after he keeps denying any contact with the OW. They LIE AND WILL CONTINUE to lie until REALITY SEEKS IN!

It is still painful to talk about. I am ok. WH has stop contact on his own and the OW stopped insisting, when he found out she was a slut.... I even asked him if he beleived in monogamy..because I don't want to "CRAMP" his style. Yes, I wanted to be FRANK! I have to be like this to protect myself...I will not say finding out your spouse is cheating is good, but not knowing.. and being in the darkness is mad crazy!

Babygirl, I know you are doing plan A , and I have been following your thread. Do what RealityCHK said, follow him! Buy some cool custumes..(might as well have fun with it.)

YOU NEED TO KNOW! Asking him isn't going to work obviously....

Big hugs from Queen Harudah... Keep your head up, school work.. The affair destroyed me more than I show to people.. my eyes are dry from crying and confidence has dropped, but it is going back. But my love bank had a big withdraw for my WH. I am not DEEPLY in love anymore.....not willing to do anything anymore. My marriage is in recovery, and we've been taking the necessary steps for it. I will have to built myself, but I am not going to be the one forcing anything anymore. I am not going to be the DOER all the time. I think this has helped me wake up and try to bite my life . I'm 22, I was married at 18 my H is 9 years older than me.. and he cheated with a 30 year old..and girl.. if he is cheating.. its not YOU ..its HIM.. the OW is ugly and HUGE!

well bye big hugs***

Thank you, everyone, on your suggestions on getting the truth.

RCC and Harudah, what you say is extremely difficult to hear, but I do need a "reality check" as well. I know that I would like to pretend that this cannot be happening and hope that it all goes away, but I do not think that it is possible.

RCC, how did you find out about your H? Did you find evidence and confront him, or did he just tell you? How do you know how he behaves when you're not around? Just wondering.

I am having another EXTREMELY difficult time tonight. My H was off today and I had class tonight. Sure enough, there are 47 miles on his car. I spoke to him from work at 11:30 and 5pm today, so he snuck off between these times. Both times I talked to him, he acted as if he was doing "nothing" today. I REALLY want to confront him and ask him where he goes on all of his days off. He must really think that I am STUPID! I FEEL stupid for letting him get away with this.

He is off again on Thursday. I would love to be able to call in sick with a migraine just to see what his reaction would be. I'm not ready to trail him yet. I'm looking into that device. I'm also seriously considering finding a way to pay for a PI. I think I might be able to swing it.

Wish me luck, everyone. I can't take this much more.

Good! Hugs* My H told me. He couldn't hold it. Not a bad idea to take a day off when he is off! See what happens.. He might have a sudden emergency at work.. (They become professional after a while). Do not say anything when he says that.. just say ok. Hopefully he would want to spend the day with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have my fingers crossed..that we're all wrong and everything that is going on is just that heis taking dance classes to surprise you.. or is your birthday coming up? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I really hope he was just drepressed or so..

Hugs***

I am very sorry to raise the possiblility that your husband may be cheating. I know it is a horror to seriously consider. My heart goes out to you, and I hope that your situation is different from mine when all is said and done.

You asked how I found out about my husband's unfaithfulness and his more flirtatious behavior when I wasn't around. I had questioned him about diffent things through the years, times I felt hurt by his behavior or suspicious about his feelings or relationship with women. At the time, he denied EVERYTHING, and had me convinced that he was just a wonderful, friendly guy, and I was a suspiciuos, jealous person.

Not until years later, when he got an std did he confess to having affairs. Through the many conversations that followed his revelation, we delved into the behaviors that led to the affairs--the skirtchasing and flirtations.

He has been open to explore his emotions and needs and has come to the conclusion that he was a person who wanted it all and didn't think he would harm me as long as I didn't find out. He has gone into a lot of detail now about how he related to other women then, was really a person I didn't know.

He enjoyed our marriage but also wanted to go out and party and experience other women. He felt entitled to enjoy whatever he could get away with, as our culture says men should. He didn't realize that he was leaching the life out of me and out of our love.

Our intimacy suffered terribly. He never made the connection that I became withdrawn from him and felt a terrible distance, but I just thought him incapable of true intimacy and settled for what I could get. I felt a dull anger and discontent over the years, but got joy out of our children, and what relationship we did have. We had frequent sex, but I always felt "used", like he was using my body for his own pleasure, not making love with me, in the moment.

I knew he didn't feel passionately romantic about me anymore and I didn't feel it for him either, but just thought we were "okay" and nothing could be done to improve our situation. I thought we were fine. I honestly thought he was just content with less romance than I was! When he confessed, it all made sense.

What a crock of manipulation and deceit I had put up with. I was shocked and disturbed by my own ability to deny reality and that I was willing to settle for such a shallow relationship.

I tell you this in the hope that you can glean from my story.

Your best result will come from SNOOPING, not from asking or accusing. You need to become independent in your own mind, ie, if he is cheating, he is not thinking of you as a couple, and to catch him, you must detach enough to look at HIM, not you as a "couple".

As Harudah has wisely pointed out, you are so torn, wanting to know yet too afraid of what you may find out. You need to buckle down and do it--you really are better off knowing the truth, whatever it is. If he IS cheating, finding out is the best way to save your marriage.

Wow, RCC, everything you say hits so close to home! Your H really sounds like my H!

Particularly--

--My H puts on a show in front of family and friends of how "wonderful" our marriage is and how much he loves me. However, at home, there is no real "connection" or "intimacy," or only at times. My H is not the type to say "I love you." In fact, he never has. I have to usually ask him and he responds "yes," or "you know." He also does not give compliments. He has told me in the past that he learned that it is gives women a big head and it is what they expect to hear "they usually fish for compliments" and he will not do that.

--When I have been suspicious in the past about certain behaviors - going out and not telling me, girls from class calling, etc.- he just makes me out to be a jealous wife. As a matter of fact, I was particularly suspicious at one point a couple of years ago. He would come home late from work. He would get off from work, say at 11pm, but not come home till 1:30 or 2am. When I would ask him where he was he would say he had to stay late at work. I would say "then why do you smell like smoke?" Then he would admit that he went out for a drink with a buddy after work, but didn't want to tell me because I thought he would get mad. I bought it! I didn't want to believe anything else, I suppose. It's amazing, though, that after a few months, he stopped "hanging out" with this buddy. He never came home late from work like that again.

--He has the attitude in general that "what a person doesn't know won't hurt him/her." He has made comments like that in the past about different things. I also know that he feels "entitled." I can't put my finger on this one, but it is just his attitude. He is the type to try to get away with things, in general. The rules don't ever apply to him. I know that he would apply this to "marriage rules" as well.

What is your H's personality like? Is he controlling? Is he a perfectionist, particularly about his appearance? I can't even TOUCH his hair or clothes in public! He is very vain. He loves his cologne, too. The funny thing is, I NEVER catch him looking at other women.

His past might say something as well. When we met, I was 20 and he was 26. I was shy and reserved and had never been with another man. He, on the other hand, told me that he had been with many women. He said that he was never in love before and that being with women was just a "game" to him. When he realized that I was apprehensive and didn't like his past, he NEVER mentioned it again. I've always wondered, though, if he would look for other women in the future. He said he had it out of his system and he was more worried about ME, not having slept with another man. He thought I might get curious and cheat. This has NEVER crossed my mind (he knows it now - he has come to this realization by himself over the years). I have been so stupid and so in love. He has been and is all I ever needed.

Here are some questions about your H and serial cheaters.

-How is your recovery going?
-Can a serial cheater really recover?
-Was it just sex for your H, or was he "in love" or emotionally attached?
-How DID he relate to women in the past compared to now?

Sorry for my long post, as always.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>

I just have one more thought.

Looking at my last post, I've come to the realization that he will NEVER feel guilty and come clean on his own. I have to catch him.

He is pretending that everything is OK so I can forget about this. That is why he is having this amazing turnaround (including our trip to Cancun.) I won't forget about it. I will plan A, and gather proof.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: svb ]</small>

svb Please email me at nightsong02@hotmail.com
I have lots to say but would prefer to do so privately if that is okay with you.

I am still having a really difficult time. This whole issue has consumed me. I can think of nothing else and it is affecting my work, my schoolwork, and everything else. I have a difficult time sleeping and have lost 19 pounds so far. I'm not sure if my AD's are working. I only notice that they do help me keep my anxiety under control around my husband and I do not LB (so much).

My H really confuses me with his turnaround. He acts as if there is nothing wrong with our M now. He doesn't think that we need MC, and does not want to talk about R issues at all. I kind of hinted around filling out an EN questionnaire, but he said he doesn't want to. I am wondering if I should fill one out for me and give it to him. I think I might just be LBing if I do (acting needy). I know that I must have sickened him with trying to talk about our relationship during the 4 months he shut me out of his life. I am happier now that we are communicating more and spending time together, but I still feel like things are not right, although I'm sure he'd like me to. I still feel like he is hiding something, and he is not fully affectionate like he used to be.

I am battling acting suspicious around him. If I want to catch him I don't think I can let on that I am suspicious, but it is so difficult. He ran off to the other room last night to make a phone call. I asked him who he called, though I know I probably shouldn't have. He said he called his sister. When I hit "redial" later on, I found that he had erased the number. A few minutes after he came back from the call, and he asked if I have class on Saturday. We are both off on Saturday and I don't have class. I asked him "why?" He said that we can plan to do something. I really feel that he asked because he wants to sneak off on Saturday. He would have been free to do what he wanted during the day if I have class. I suggested that we do a day-long activity (to keep him with me all day, of course), but he would rather do something later in the day. I have a feeling that he will try to go out alone at some point during the day. I will be tempted to ask if I could come along, too, but I suppose I should just let him go without any issues.

I think I plan on getting a voice activated recorder for the room where he made his telephone call. I can't use a phone recorder, but at least with a VA recorder, I can get his side of the conversation.

I am also considering getting a GPS on record device to put underneath his car. I am squirreling away cash here and there to make these purchases without his suspicion. Part of me doesn't really want to know anything for sure until we get back from our trip to Cancun at the end of this month.

Here is an update on my situation.

First, I want to say that plan A has been working well. We just got back late Monday night from our trip to Cancun. We had a wonderful time. We had fun and he was very affectionate. I was at ease because I knew he was with ME the entire time.

Now comes the bad part.

My H switched to working nights as soon as we came back from our trip. (He says that he had no say in the change in his schedule) This has really upset me because now he is free everyday during the day to do what he pleases before he goes to sleep. He started this new shift on Tuesday night. I went to work Tuesday morning and I had the gut feeling that he was going to take his usual trip on our first day back. Sure enough, there were 48 miles on his car when I checked when I got home from work.

It gets worse.

I also had a bad feeling yesterday while I was at work. He went to the dentist in the morning. I checked his miles when I got home and everything was OK. HOWEVER, I looked in the garbage can in his bathroom and found two condom wrappers there. I just happened to count all of his condoms the day before. There were 11 total - all in tact. Now there are 9 in tact, and two wrappers in the trash can. They were not used with ME! There is no doubt in my mind about this - there is NO WAY I can be mistaken.

He apparently took advantage of the fact that I was at work, and our good friend neighbors were not at home yesterday (our neighbor is in the hospital). So I figure he felt safe to bring a guest to our house.

I know that he has been placed at ease with my plan A. I think he feels certain that I am no longer checking up on him. But still, isn't it awfully careless of him to just throw them in there?

Here is my question now - Is this enough evidence to confront him with? I feel that it is - I don't know how he can back out of this one. Also, how should I go about confronting him?

I would appreciate anyone's advice on this.

svb

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]</small>

LMH,

Thanks for your advice. I am dying to confront him about this and end it all.

I am afraid that he will just deny everything again. I have posted this question under general questions under the topic "found new evidence - should I confront" and the general consensus there is that I need more evidence. They say he will just deny everything again and go back into hiding. In my mind, I thought this was enough evidence. I am really confused about what to do. I think at this point I have him at a place where he is feeling comfortable and confident that I am not checking on him. Why else would he keep those wrappers in my house?

What do you think?

svb