RW,
I'd rather think you're acting with controlled enthusiasm and optimism while bracing for impact than a "stage of indifference" and rightly so. A person can only be pummeled so many times before they instinctively begin to involuntarily cover their vitals from the blows.
Good luck in counseling, and lay it on the line to her... no give, no get. Again, best of luck.

Well, let's see, how did the weekend go.

Saturday: WW had to work an afternoon shift, and as usual, when she got home, got on the internet.

Sunday: Did some work at the barn, pulling weeds. The ground was damp from rain, was the perfect time for it. I didn't mind it to much, since work is good for me, and the horse hasn't actually done anything to me. Went to WalMart afterwards for some afternoon shopping. WW made a seafood gumbo for dinner, which was actually pretty yummy. Of course, WW was on the internet, but surprise, surprise, was off by 9:15 and asked me to shut her computer down around 10pm.

Monday: Didn't have our lunch date, not too bothered really, we've both managed to stretch this paycheck a little thin. WW managed to initiate some affection today, kissed me bye before she left for work, and hugged me before she went horseback riding after dinner. WW got on the internet for all of about an hour. Wow, 2 days in a row she's off before midnight.


Ok, I see 2 different pictures being painted here. I can't afford to ignore either one. But, I don't know how much longer I can stand her not making a formal decision about staying together or not. Oh, and OM's back in her Yahoo Friends list. Only reason I know this, is because WW called me over to the computer to show me some audibles. Didn't say anything, and walked away from her computer as fast as I could so I wouldn't say anything.

For the record, CS, you're right. I'm super cautious about the situation, and hopeful at the same time. What I hate the most about this, is only time will tell.

WW just called. Best Friend went to the hospital this morning for severe abdominal cramps.

I was actually surprised she called.

RW,
She promised NO CONTACT, you clearly saw the OM on her Yahoo D/M list and yet, you said nothing? Why?

Don't you understand what mixed messages your sending her? It's true that this is what she does to you, but do you really want to play that silly game?

She calls you to the computer...maybe to let you see the OM's name on her list and see what your reaction will be. And your reaction was???

RW, I don't understand. Why is that you don't seem to think that you have the right to tell her when she's making you uncomfortable or unhappy? Or when you catch her lying, how it makes you feel? Why not tell her how it hurts you when she doesn't keep her word to you? Why? And what about that disc she burned? What was that about? Did you ever find out? Did you ever even ask?

RW, (and I know I'm being a real pr#ck today!) as badly as she's behaved it still doesn't absolve you of your responsability. You have to be willing to police your own house. You have to be willing to stand up and set boundaries for her.

She has a right to know what you find acceptable and what you don't. She has the right to a H who cares and loves her enough to say the hard things to her. Otherwise what is she to think? How is she to know? How can you be mad at her after the fact when you never told her what consituted acceptable limits?

coach

Coach,

Our counselor asked us to discuss these kinds of things in counseling. Personally, I'd rather have the unbiased arbitrator there, at least that way someone else can see what I've been talking about, and how WW responds.

Counseling is tomorrow. The lie will be brought up, as well as the OM's name back in the friends list. I also intend to address the amount of time that gets spent online.

Bottom line is this: WW has NOT made the decision to stay together, merely to TRY and work on our issues. I feel it's pointless to waste my breath when she hasn't even committed to the relationship.

Of course, my birthday is this Sunday, and I get to dump all this on her tomorrow night. She's going to be angry, and you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm tired of feeling this way.

RW,
I hear you loud and clear. It just makes me sad. I see you losing your will to struggle yet; I also see how high it gets you when she gives you just a little hope. I sometimes wonder how the good Lord could have created something so seriously flawed as humanity.
Coach

Just had a thought after reading Coach's post, don't mean to slight anyone, but want to describe the picture that just popped into my head.

Picture this, you're on a wooded path, the sky is blue, few clouds in the sky. The grass is green, flowers are blooming, and the song of birds is in the air.

Up ahead, there is a fork in the road, each winding off into the trees, where they lead you can't see. Right there at the fork, is my campfire and my tent. Standing there is me. On one shoulder I have Believer with her halo and angel wings, and on the other shoulder is Coach, with his pitchfork and horns! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I mean no harm, I need a devils advocate, it helps me to keep both pictures being painted by my WW in perspective.

Honestly, I find everyone's advice and opinions highly valuable as I deal with this each day.

Thank you all, and regardless of the outcome of my own personal nightmare, I have all of you I have come to rely on. I'm a much better person as a result of this, regardless of which path I travel down.

Counseling this afternoon. I think I've figured out a way to bring my concerns to light. I intend to start off by asking the counselor how to talk about my concerns when WW always goes defensive and doesn't really hear what I'm trying to say.

I'm hoping the counselor can say/do something to help WW LISTEN to what I want to say without going defensive. I don't want to fight. I don't want to make her angry. I want to discuss issues with the outlook of a positive resolution.

Also, the counselor usually starts off with asking how things are going. I intend to keep quiet and let WW have the floor first. I want to do that because I know as soon as I start talking about my issues, the sirens are going to go off, shields will come up, and she'll go defensive. At that point nothing constructive will come out.

Personally, I think the fact WW gets as defensive as she does is because she must feel some sort of guilt about whatever the issue is and doesn't want to admit it. To her, one of us is right, and the other is wrong. She hasn't accepted that it's ok to have a difference of opinion and that compromise can usually solve that difference of opinion. Then again, this comes back to it appears WW doesn't need to make any compromises about anything, as she seems to be perfect.

These are just my opinions, which may or may not be affected by my frame of mind induced by the trauma of having my entire life ripped to shreds in front of my face.

I don't want to go today, I'm already shaking, think I'm going to take one of my pills before I head out.

RW,
Brace yourself, and hang in there! We all want you to come out of this whole again! Nothing we can say here will calm you before a possible showdown with WW at the counselor, but you know we were praying for the strength you've been showing thus far to bear you through it. No matter which advocate's approach (just kidding!) you were taking at one time or another, you bore through it with your head up. Keep it up.

Ok, well, it went pretty much like I predicted. Here's how it went:

WW started off by saying how nice things have been and the things we've been doing together. I prompted her to tell the counselor about her job prospects, which she did, and further went on say something about new beginnings in a new place.

Well, then it was my turn. So, I direct my question at the counselor, how do I talk about my issues without WW getting defensive and not hearing what I'm saying. WW pipes up and says what kinds of things? And further made a comment about me harboring things and not talking to her.

So, the first thing I brought up was OM's name back in her friends list. Her explanation to that was he sent her a message when she got back from California asking if she was back, and she said she sent him a 1 word response, yes, and hasn't talked to him since. I can neither confirm nor deny this, as I'm not using spyware, or hovering around her computer when she's on it. She even went so far to say I could sit there next to her if I wanted to. Somehow, I don't think that's a good idea.

The next thing I brought up was her opinion on honesty, which of course led into the lie about the music CD. Her very first response was about me "rifling" through her purse, she was more focused on me going through her purse, than she was listening to me explain how important honesty is to me, especially after all the damage that's been done to the trust in our relationship. I explained, I didn't set out to "rifle" through her purse, and wasn't looking for something to confront her with. Her explanation of lying was, she knew the moment I asked her the next day if she made a copy of the cd, that I knew, and had to have gone through her purse and that I was trying to trap her, and that's why she lied. She further said I was jumping to conclusions in thinking she lied because she sent it to someone that I wouldn't approve of, and that the CD she made is at work. I acknowledged what I did was entrapment, only I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time, and I apologized for it. She did not apologize for lying.

The next thing I brought up was the amount of time she spends online, and that what she's doing is the same thing she accused me of. The counselor asked her how much time she spends on the computer, and WW responded with 2 to 3 hours a night. The counselor explained being a mother, wife, and having a horse, that spending 2 to 3 hours a night online, that something else is suffering, whether it be our relationship or her sleep. I said, in a healthy relationship, the only time parents have time to spend together alone is after the kids go to bed. The counselor suggested I try approaching things differently, not saying I have a problem with this, but rather, hey I'd like it if you spent more time with me after the kids go to bed. I said I've tried getting her to do anything with me. WW likes to play Scrabble, and I've offered, but WW says at 10pm at night is too late. I said, oh? well, you play scrabble online that late, what's the difference? She said when she's done playing, all she has to do is close the window, and doesn't have a mess to clean up. I said, it's not like I can't dump the scrabble tiles into the bag.

Here are some things the counselor said:

She pointed out to WW she could see when WW hears something she doesn't like, that she looks away and goes defensive, and attributes it to her being Passive-Aggressive. The counselor told WW that's why I'm so hesitant to bring up anything with her.

Where the CD and lying is concerned, instead of trying to trap WW, I should merely acknowledge knowing she made the CD. WW had said she felt like I was treating her like a child. The counselor explained with the damage done to trust, it could be a long time before I feel the need to question it, and when WW feels like I'm treating her like a child, she should just say I'm done talking about this for now.

Online time, WW admitted to still being mad at me for the time I used to spend online. I mentioned I made a compromise for us, because she made me see how destructive it was, and I asked if she could do the same, and that I wasn't asking for her to give up being online. She said she could.

Oh, and one other thing, during one of the more heated discussions, I actually mentioned I had no intention of relocating anywhere if I didn't feel better about our relationship, and her response was "Fine!". That's encouraging....

The last thing the Counselor said was she knows when we leave we're still going to have our feelings about counseling, and we need to leave what happened in counseling, at counseling, and not discuss any of the issues. Much easier to do these days actually.

WW told me before counseling started she was going riding and brought all her riding stuff with her that day. She was on her cell phone before she ever got out of the parking lot, and I'm sure she was on the phone with her best friend. Oh, btw, best friend had her gall bladder removed because of gall stones.

I made dinner, and got DD(3) ready for bed. WW got home around 8:15pm. Tried to give her a hug and a kiss, and was unable to. So, I went out and sat on the porch steps to have a smoke. WW came out and sat all the way over on the other side of the step. I looked at her and said, I love you. She said, I know. I asked, do you love me? She said, sometimes. I said, seems to me when you love someone, it's not just sometimes.

We went inside and were watching the Democratic Convention, she made some comments here and there, but it didn't take very long for her to fall asleep. She was asleep by 9:15. She didn't get on the computer at all last night. I went to bed at 9:30 and left her sleeping on the couch.

So, here we are this morning. I made the coffee for her, and went in to let her know I was leaving for work. Kissed her on the cheek, and told her to have a nice day, and I loved her. She said bye. okkkkk.

So, I'd be extremely surprised if I even got a call from her today. My birthday is this Sunday, and it's going to be the worst one ever.

RW,
A little devil on your shoulder ha LMAO? That’s what my W (former WW) likes to call me!

On one hand she likens me to the character Tom Cruise played (not Tom Cruise himself, the character…) in the movie Risky Business. She thinks I’m always into something crazy that she wouldn’t approve of. Not damaging crazy mind you. Just adolescent nonsense. On the other hand, however, I’m very consistent in my attitudes. She almost always knows that when she asks for advice, she may not like the answer. In fact, something that I’ve really had to learn with her is to stop offering until asked! That and to just keep my mouth shut and listen.

My W is very left brained. Very! I have to honestly say that I can’t figure out how she ever decided to cheat. Morality and integrity issues aside, trying to imagine her analyzing the act (she analyses everything…EVERYTHING) is one of the funny images that kept me sane through out the nightmare. It’s like I can sit here now, seeing her face in my minds eye, getting undressed for the OM; knowing that what’s going on in her head. She’s trying to decide what to take off first. Her skirt or her shirt! And she’s actually weighing the pros and cons of both! Very important decision for her right? LOL And I laugh at this now! I know. I’m nuts!

But guess what? Nutty as I am, I seem to have this uncanny ability to understand what people are really thinking about in various situations. It’s what I do for a living. Read between the lines and direct the action for a staff of people needing to find solutions to sales problems. So when my WW started doing things that I found out of character, it was fairly easy to came to the right conclusion about what she was doing. What was difficult was making myself believe it and then deciding what to do about it!

With my W it was a fairly strategic problem. Once I stopped vomiting all over the place and decided what I wanted, doing what needed doing was so much easier. For me, the worst had already happened. What else could she do? Leave me? She already had! Yes she was still in our home but not really. Our home was just a warehouse for her body. A place where she slept (most of the time! LOL) Anyway, accepting this was probably the most important realization I came to. It set me free to act. I was no longer afraid of losing her because I had. So what I did was to remind her why she loved me. Pretty simple ha? NOT!

And about your birthday RW. If you let it be the worst one ever then shame on you. Not your W but you. If you want it to be good, then plan something for yourself! FOR YOURSELF! Don’t wait for her or ask her or do anything with her in mind. Do it for yourself. Do what will make you happy. Figure out what it is you want to do and who you want to be there with you. Then invite her to come along. If she does, great! If she doesn’t, better yet! That’s right, better yet. This is your day so be selfish for a change. If she’s going to bring you down, let her stay home and play with her computer. How’s that for “devilish” advice?

Coach

Coach, I'm not calling you Coach anymore, I'm going to call ya Diablo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A friend of mine, that was my supervisor while I was still in the Air Force, reads this thread, and he sent me an email.

He's coming to town this weekend, and we're going out Saturday night, and then going fishing on Sunday (my birthday).

So, instead of making plans without my WW, I called her and told her he is coming to town and wants to do something with me for my birthday. She said she didn't have any plans. Kind of disappointing, but not really. I haven't had a chance to hang out with Scott in a long time, and I think we're going to have a good time!

On a side note, I did talk to WW today, and at the end of the conversation, she said bye, and I said I love you, and she paused for a moment, and then responded with I love you too. Guess she's cooled off some. I actually thought after saying my peace last night, she'd be done. Guess, she still wants to work out our issues. Personally, I'd like to see more changes, but I need more patience, I'm just concerned her job opportunity is going to get here and we're not going to be where I think we should be before relocating. So, if there is any hope for this marriage, then I need to continue with Plan A, but not at the expense of me. I think yesterday was a good step in that direction. At least WW knows now, she's not the easiest person to talk to, and the counselor saw it, just like I hoped.

Well, I may have an awesome Birthday after all. Watched Master and Commander with WW last night. After the movie was over, we went out on the porch for a smoke, and had general chit chat. While we were out there, she started telling me that she spent some time yesterday looking for a new horse for me. That shocked me! Especially since I have told her I'd like to have another horse, but only if we're together because I just don't know enough yet to keep one on my own.

After our smoke, we went inside and I started cleaning up the Living Room, WW said, you don't have to do that tonight, I'll do it tomorrow. So, I gave her a kiss and a goodnight hug, and said I'll see ya in the morning. As I was about to start down the steps, she asked if I wanted to sleep upstairs. Of course, I said yes.

We were tired, and it only sleeping involved. But, let me tell you. Sleeping downstairs, I get about 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night, and it's full of tossing and turning and nightmares. When I sleep upstairs, with my wife, it's restful. Being with her chases away the demons and nightmares. I love my wife, with all my heart, and I hope she's coming around. After all this time, I just don't know if I have the patience to find out.

My friend, Scott, taking me out tonight, but I don't intend on staying out real late. He's going to take me fishing tomorrow too. I hope you all have a good weekend!

<small>[ July 31, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]</small>

I totally understand your wifes point of view....because I have been in her exact situation.....get her out of it now....shut down the computer....she needs to seperate from him because he is her addiction....I wentr through this and after my lover and I called it quits and I wanted to get my marriage back on track....It hasn't happened my husband can't get over it..because my online lover turned into a real affair.....I blame myself for it every day....I know I was possessed and I wish i could undo everything...I want my husband back....so our son will have the family he deserves....but it's too late from what my husband says....I screwed up our family...for my son and myself....don't let your wife make the same mistake.....take action now...before it's too late.

Edit: ^_^; sorry just realized how old this post was

<small>[ August 01, 2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: lost lamb ]</small>

RW- HappyBirthday -

I hope it is a good one. Fishing should be fun, especially with your friend.

Yoo hoo. Did you have such a good birthday that you can't post anymore?

Sorry Believer! I don't find much need to get online when I'm at home. Do most of my surfing from work! You know, when I should be working... hehe.

Here's something you all should get a kick out of. Turns out my friend, has been posting to my thread and I didn't even know it was him! That's right, ConfusedScott, is my friend Scott!

CS: I had a good time this weekend, and I'm glad you were part of it!

I'm guessing something happened at our last joint counseling. She's hardly been online at all, except for Saturday, she spent a good part of the day online chatting. Wasn't with OM, but a couple other people. Didn't really affect me much, except when I got home from being out with CS. And I'm not going to complain, because for 3 out of the last 4 nights, I've slept upstairs WITH my W.

Money was a really tight this weekend. I'm ashamed to say it's my fault, but W was unable to even get me a card or bake me a cake. I told her it really wasn't that big deal, and we could celebrate my birthday with dinner and a movie on Date Night. We're going to go to the same place CS took me, it's an international cuisine buffet, called Emperor's Wok. Then we're going to see "The Village".

All in all, I think we're headed to recovery, but I'm hesitant to say that. I'll wait for about a month, if things are still going the way they are right this moment, then I'll say we're in recovery. This has been an awesome weekend, much more so than I expected.

Things are still going good. It's odd, after so long of things being horrible, that things are feeling better.

WW staying offline for the most part and extending affection. She isn't saying I love you or trying to hold my hand, but she says I love you too, and touches me.

Last night she asked if I'd like to sleep upstairs in her bed again, which makes 4 out of the last 5 nights. When she came to bed, I was facing away from her side of the bed, she kissed my shoulder and wrapped her arm around me.

It's almost like it's too good to be true. Seems to me somewhere I've heard if it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't.

I love my wife, and this feels good. I'm scared, is this normal?

Went to the gym yesterday, felt freakin' awesome! I'm ready to get in shape, I'm tired of my sedintary lifestyle. No more just sitting around the house in front of the computer for me, unless it's with my wife.

Took DD(12) for registration for 7th grade yesterday. I don't remember school being so freaking expensive when I was growing up.

Spent the rest of the evening with my wife while she played NeverWinter Nights. One might think it could be boring sitting next to someone playing a computer game, but I actually found it fun. I was very careful not to do any of the things that always bothered her in the past. Like telling her how to play, or what she was doing wrong. And I was sure to tell her what a good job she was doing, even said I few times I didn't think I could have done as well.

Stayed up way too late last night. Went out for a smoke around 11pm and when I mentioned getting some sleep, wife made a disappointed sound. So, I said, but I think I can stay up awhile longer.

She was having a tough time with a situation in the game, and asked my advice. At first my advice wasn't too helpful, but it was advice that was sound and relied heavily on chance. She eventually succeeded and was quite thrilled. I told her she did an awesome job!

After this we went out for another smoke, when we came inside, she asked if I was coming to bed. I immediately noticed she didn't ask if I wanted to sleep upstairs in her bed, but if I was coming to bed. I said, yep.

Was very nice, DD(3) stayed in her own bed. This in itself is a hurdle we've not been able to jump. On a side note, we ran out of night time pull-ups, and have been cutting down on DD(3)'s liquid intake before bedtime. The first night, she had an accident, but for the last 2 nights, we've been accident free!

I'm still in disbelief of the turnaround where things are concerned. I'm going to continue Plan A'ing my butt off, and I'm going to bring up in counseling next week about my fears of this feeling too good to be true. I want to believe this is the road to recovery, and I'm scared it's not. I'm thinking this isn't a bad thing to discuss, and I'd like to think my wife could empathize.

So glad to see the turnaround. Go ahead and do some posting on recovery. Spiderslayer used to say everytime she posted there, something awful would happen. But she is still happily in recovery.

I am so happy for you. Looks like things are looking up. Don't be afraid, you have been doing a great Plan A for a long time.

You know your wife well. There are many things you can do without money. Spend time with her and Star. Take pictures. Give her emotional support.

Just relax and be your wonderful new self.