2 PA's during 7 years - Marriage Builders® Forums

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On Friday, 12 Mar 04, that my wife has been carrying on a cyber affair. They've been chatting for almost a year, and I don't know when it became serious. It's moved to emails, and phone calls.

I discovered the relationship after using a keystroke capture program to record her chat session. I hate doing this, and I know I was violating her privacy. I confronted her, and she suggested counseling. I agreed.

My problem is, she says she's not in love with me anymore, but she still loves me. She means everything in the world to me, and I can't imagine not having her in my life.

I'm a civillian scheduled to go to Bahgdad in 30 days for 3 months. She said the 3 month break would be good for us, but I feel just the opposite. She doesn't want me to cancel the trip.

Since last Friday, the blinders are lifted and I believe I'm seeing things with a new crystal clarity. Our first counseling session is Thursday night. But, I think it's already too late.

She sent me an email yesterday saying she told her cyber lover they would stop cybering because she wants to work on her marriage. Last night, she was cybering and eventually took it to a phone call.

I want to believe she is sincere about trying to fix our marriage, but her actions speak differently. She continues to be deceptive.

We've been able to talk some, and I understand how things fell apart. I failed her on so many levels, and she failed to help me see. She says, it's been like this for 4 years.

Inside I'm a whirlwind of emotions, sad, hurt, betrayed, disappointed in myself and her, and countless others. It's all so overwhelming. I want nothing more in the world than a chance to make things better. They continue to profess their love for each other and can't wait for the day when they are together.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what to think. It takes 2 to tango, and it feels like now that everything is in the open, that I'm the only one trying, even though she is the one that suggested counseling.

Can anyone help? I'm desperate.

[ June 12, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Read everything you can on this site.

Printout the Emotional Needs questionnaire and Lovebuster questionnaire. Ask if you can both sit down and fill these out together, then show them to each other.

Begin concentrating VERY hard on eliminating LB (Lovebusters) and fulfilling her top three EN (Emotional Needs).

Read Surviving an Affair (I checked it out from my library).

Ask her to send a NC letter to the OM (or men?)
Ask her to change her accounts, maybe even change your number. The A is an addiction and she will go back to it unless she makes precautions not to. A nicotine addict throws away their cigarettes and removes their ashtrays. Give her your email accounts and passwords and ask for hers. You should each check up on each other from time to time, this is not an invasion of privacy. Can she check your email anytime she wants?

Is there a possibility she can travel with you? Or stay with friends or family during this time? Get rid of the computer? Ask her what precautions she needs to remove this addiction from her life.

Well, we're both 32, and I have a 12 year old from a previous marriage and a 3 year old from this one. The 12 year old has been pretty much abandoned by her real mother, and considers my wife to be her mother.

We've been together for 7 years, and married going on our 4th.

Due to the family, her going to Baghdad with me is totally out of the question.

I'd be happy to give her my account logins/passwords, but she's still got too much to hide and would see this as an invasion of privacy. She already knows I used the keystroke capture program, because that's how I found out.

As far as A is concerned, she doesn't want to give that up. She says that's her decision to make and refuses to allow me to influence that decision.

I'll see if she's interested in doing the questionaires, but like I said, I feel like I'm the only making any attempt. She hasn't been very open to me lately. A is getting all that.

So sorry that you find yourself here. That is not a bad iea to get rid of the computer while you are gone-it may seem harsh but if she really wants to work on the marriage she will do it. CAn I ask what key stroke logger you used- does it track instant messages? My dh has never admitted still to anything so I am still cautious. But it has been a wake up call and we have started counseling- so glad you guys are going. And I totally understand your feeling lke you don't wan to go- it is normal to feel clingy and anxious after your discovery. Keep posting it will help.
Take care.
Linda

I believe it's called perfect key logger, but it only captures what she's typing, not what he's typing.

Once she found out I was using it, she downloaded an anti spy software. What's funny is the anti spy software was made by the same company.

Honestly, I don't care what he's saying, it just bothers me the extent this all went too right under my nose. How could I have been so blind?

[ March 17, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, I've got to be about the stupidest man on the planet.

Wife called, asked what I was doing. Told her I was reading articles on this website. She asked what kind of articles, started to tell her and she said just email her.

Sent 3, all of which she said made her feel I purposely picked out the ones that said it was all her fault and what a horrible person she is.

She pretty much said she doesn't think what she's doing with this other guy is cheating. She has a female friend, she's been friends with since high school. She said I might as well say the same thing about her.

It was so difficult to stay in control. But I didn't say she was wrong. I said I thought we both had made mistakes.

Here are the articles I sent her.

What Are Plan A and Plan B?

Caring for Children Means Caring for Each Other
Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn

I said, ok, if it looks like I was attacking you, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. Let me send you another one I though was important.

Why Women Leave Men

Maybe I should just call it quits and let her have it her way. I mean obviously this whole thing is only going to end the way she wants it anyway.

I just don't know how much longer I can keep doing this. I feel like I have this incredible weight on my shoulders. I had to leave work early yesterday, I was just about start bawling my eyes out. Got out just in time.

Of course, I had to mess that up to when I left her a voicemail saying I was going home early and I was sorry. Wasn't till I was driving home wiping the tears out of my eyes how that must have sounded. I was right. She thought I was going to go home and do something stupid. She said she almost called the cops.

I can't eat, when I do, it feels like I'm not going to be able to keep it down. So, I've been drinking a lot of water. Probably a good thing, seeing how all this stress has me sweating like a pig. I can't sleep, I lay there listening to keys on the keyboard clacking away. Just knowing she's talking to him makes it all but impossible to sleep. Last night she came to bed, my back was to the middle of the bed. She actually, got close and put her arm around me. I almost started crying again. I think I've lost close to 10 pounds since last Friday.

Is this my punishment? It all looks so dismal right now...

((RWukovich)) My husband is a computer addict, and I am aware of many improper "relationships" that he has had with women across the US. When I told him that I did not approve, he got very angry, and stated that what was online was not "real" life. His reason to do these things was to escape.
It truly is an addiction - (there are many addictions in our family), and I sense that my husband is obsessive/compulsive.
The bottom line is, for me, that those relationships are disrespectful of our relationship. Sharing close feelings and thoughts shoudl be with your spouse.
Through all this, I finally caught him with a lady from work last week.
So finally, he has realized that I'm hurt by his deceitful ways, and to tell you the truth, I still have not really made a firm decision to ask him to leave (have a 15 year old).
Anyway - IMHO, having cyber "friends" is a bad place to be. They are easy to fall in love with, because they are not THERE! They fall in love with love.

Vivian

VivB

You're right. But I feel so responsible for not being there for her in every way. I wish I could go back in time and change it.

Talked to her just a little while ago, and I said, all I wanted to do to was fix our marriage. She compared our relationship to a car, fixing a car isn't the only thing, you have to maintain it. I replied, but it has to be fixed before you can maintain it.

I'm scared of our first session tomorrow night. I've no idea what to expect. I know the mistakes I've made, but she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

They have expressed EXTREME interest in actually being in each other's arms. She even said it WILL happen.

I just wanna scream, cry, and hide. Why won't she work with me?

D-Day: 7

I've decided to focus on the problems that caused the riff in my marriage. Regardless of how this ends, I'll be better for it.

I mentioned earlier I'm supposed to go to Baghdad for 3 months, and I would be leaving in a month. I know she wants me to go so she can ponder the decision she has already made. The fact that she thinks she needs to ponder her decision, leads me to believe she's not completely sure of her choice. I told her that I was considering not going, and she thinks if I did that it would be to keep tabs on her or "tend" her as she put it. I have no way of convincing her, all I want to do is to win her back, and I can't do that on the other side of the world.

Yesterday, I initiated contact with a debt management program to get my financial situation under control in the event she decides she doesn't want to try again.

Night before last, I asked her if she could stay offline and spend some time with me. She made me feel she'd rather stick a red hot poker in her eye. However, last night she wasn't feeling well, and was online long enough to let OP know she wasn't going to be online because she wasn't feeling well.

I saw that as an opportunity to cater to her. We have our first counseling session tonight. Hoping the counselor can advise me whether or not I should go to Baghdad. I'm suspecting her advice will be not to go. Not entirely sure, how WW will take it.

WW and I meet though the internet surprisingly. We emailed back and forth several times a day for about a week. I brought her home the first night, and she's been with me ever since. My Dad suggested I try dating her since we never really dated. When I mentioned it to WW, I was pleasantly surprised, she expressed she was interested in that.

She's going camping with our 2 daughters. She's going to meet her friend and her 2 daughters for an all girls thing.

We did manage to set our first date though, I'm off work on Sundays and Mondays and she works M-F. We're going to have lunch on Monday. I figured I could get her some flowers. I just need to think where I could take her that would show her I was thinking of her. Thought maybe a picnic, don't know if the weather will cooperate. Anyone have any ideas?

It's the little things us girls like, the simple things, like compliments, "flattery will get you everywhere", thoughtful little actions, leave a small note before you leave in the morning, call during the day just to say Hi, tell her a joke you heard. What are her top EN's? Fulfill those. Open the car door for her, hold her hand, rub her back...

You have a month to Plan A, A, A. Also, tell her how much it is hurting you that she continues with her A partner, and yes, it is an A.
Expose the A to family and friends. Anyway to find out who he is? Does he have a W?

Online A's are particularly onerous because all they are is fantasy...it's hard to beat fantasy.

Once you go to Baghdad I would make it clear that she should be ready to decide whether she wants to TOTALLY commit to the M (and spell out what that means, that OW is COMPLETELY out of the picture) or that she should be moved out. Basically, turn your departure into a Plan B of sorts...you may want to fully implement a Plan B if she decides to leave the house.

StillHereMakingIt

I've been telling, her how much I love her, why I love her, what she means to me. I still touch her, hug her. She hasn't had to do much of anything around the house this week. I showed her a copy of the article Why Women Leave Men, and she agreed I'm guilty of some, if not all, of them.

Last night I wrote her a little note, telling her how wonderful she is, and how much I love her. I stuck it in her purse this morning. Just wondering at this point if she'll even acknowledge it.

[ April 15, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

lovemyhubby

Ya know, weird part is I always thought to myself, if I was ever in this position, there would be no doubt what would happen. We'd split up and that would be the end of that.

But, it happened. I realized how much I love her, and what I would willingly put myself through for her. I feel I'm in this incredibly deep pit of despair, but the ring on my finger and the overwhelming love I feel for her give me what appears to be the briefest sparks of hope.

I realize what she's going through is an addiction, but you can't save someone that doesn't want saving. She said she's not in love with me anymore.

Here's what I don't understand. D-Day was last Friday. Imagine my surprise Sunday morning when she climbed into the shower with me. She still tells me I love you. She still sleeps next to me, even going so far as to snuggle up against me and put an arm over me. I see all of these things in the real world, but in the virtual world it's a completely different story.

Thank you for your support. Before I found this website, I didn't know where to turn, who to talk to. I was surprised how good it felt, to poor all this stuff here. This place is wonderful.

I'm happy for you that you were able to pull yourself out of the fog. If this works out for me, I know I'll be helping WW deal with the same thing.

[ April 15, 2004, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

WW called. She found my note I left for her in her purse. She said she thought that was sweet.

Told her I just wanted to let her know I was thinking about her, even if I have a hard time showing it.

Time to make my list of things I want to discuss with the counselor tonight.

Had counseling session last night. Have to say I have mixed feelings.

WW feels she doesn't know if she can/wants to rebuild the M. I know I was completely honest last night, for some reason, I think she's still holding back.

WW says everything about me irritates her, and that I'm more like a roommate.

I advised since DDay, I've been trying everything I can to be a better person, and that since I see clearly now, I'm committed to giving 100% to rebuild M.

Counselor tried explaining that being "In Love" is just an infatuation that fades in every relationship, and that loving someone is different things.

She said if we do this, she can try to commit 100% to it. She says she can try to give up OM. She sounds reluctant.

I asked if she'd give me one last chance, and she said all she could do is try as well, but couldn't promise anything because of the void/rift that's come between us. The counselor at this point felt she was making this decision under pressure, and suggested thinking about it until our next session next Thursday.

After the session, she was upset with me. Understandably so, since like I said, I was completely honest, I admitted to still using spy ware. I brought it up early on, to try and head off any of the lies/deception that she's been telling me. I think WW wasn't expecting to be caught in the lies/deception in front of the counselor.

Counselor asked if I could wait another week. I said WW did this for 4 years, no reason I can't last another week.

WW also mentioned she would have moved out by now if it weren't for the kids, and her budget is so tight.

This morning she said she thought I should still go to Baghdad. I told her I already called it off after I got home last night.

Sigh, I just don't know. If she agrees to commit 100% I'm going to pull out the NC letter from here and ask if we can fill it out together.

Ideas? Thoughts? Opinions?

[ March 19, 2004, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Hi RW

..not sure if you saw my post before your last 2 but please read that one too if you havent already .. I just wanted to add one more thing on this one and that is so say whatever you do ...Dont Go To Baghdad right now!!..

I really believe if you go now your marriage will deteriorate even further. She is deep in the fog of this addiction and I believe she is not ready to let go of the OM.

I wish you luck. Keep talking, make her accountable, keep checking on her..(she hasnt earned your trust yet).. and love her if she allows you to get close. I hope you are reading the marriagebuilders books. They are wonderful and are what has saved my marriage I believe. Also...take care of yourself. :-)

Thinking of you,
Lmh

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lovemyhubby:
I am having a hard time understanding where your wife is..where is her head right now? I still cant imagine that she, knowing you know about her online affair, still wants to continue it..and still wants to be close to you and pretend you have a normal marriage. <hr /></blockquote>Well, the problem in our relationship appearantly started 4 years ago. So basically, she's been living a lie all this time. Because of how long this has been going on, she's completely cut herself off from me. Now that the blinders are off and I'm seeing things crystal clear, and wanting to redevelop our relationship, she's considering just calling it quits.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Do you discuss things with her?.. Has she agreed to counseling at least?.. Does she still insist on spending time with the OM even though you are in so much pain over this?<hr /></blockquote>I've been discussing everything she'll discuss with me. Since D-Day, I've not lost my temper, patience, yelled, or any other LB. She's the one who suggested MC on D-Day. We had our first session last night. More info on that in post above. So far, this has only been an EA, but she did express before counseling that she is reluctant to end communication with OM. She posted online that she hates seeing my hurt, but I think she's become so seperated from our relationship, that it doesn't have the impact you would think.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think you are doing the right thing trying to understand her, in loving her, being close to her when she is with you, however have you set any limits? Have you insisted this inappropriate relationship end? Or does she really think she can have her cake and eat it too? I'm just curious. I know in my situation I had to realize what I was doing was giving all my emotional energy and much of my time to the OM.. he is the person I thought about and spent the majority of my time with for many months.. I finally began to see this for what it was.. addiction to fantasyland, a way to make me feel alive, a way to have more excitement in my life... at first.. and it was wonderful..but slowly the guilt of betrayal and the insecurites start to creep in as you become more needy of this person..and soon you are dealing with a relationship with all the ups and downs just like in the real world...there is alot of frustration in being involved this way and maybe you can see it in your wife now that you know whats going on with her.. I hope for your sake she starts to look at what is real and what is illusion and fantasy.. But I do think you need to help her find her limits...That is a part of helping her come out of the fog of addiction..Love her but be strong too.<hr /></blockquote>Based on how fragile the relationship is now, she feels and requests to seperate her from OM is an unreasonable demand. To use her words, she thinks I'm still not listening and can't see the forest for the trees. I understood what she meant was, she wanted me to focus on the things that caused the problems in the first place, and not the result which is the EA with OM. I tried telling her I think I understand what's she's feeling, but she doesn't think I do. She doesn't see the EA as a fantasy, she's ready to make it reality. Last night was our first counseling session, and I'll find out next Thursday if we have a chance or not. She knows, if she gives me another chance that NC with OM goes into effect. However, I'm thinking she'll continue while at work, she knows she can get away with it there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lovemyhubby:
..not sure if you saw my post before your last 2 but please read that one too if you havent already .. I just wanted to add one more thing on this one and that is so say whatever you do ...Dont Go To Baghdad right now!!..<hr /></blockquote>I told WW after D-Day I was considering not going. She promptly posted online I wanted to cancel trip to keep tabs on her or "tend" her as she put it. Once counseling session was made, I told her I was going to base my decision on the recommendation of the professional counselor. The counselor of course, told me what I already knew. Going to Baghdad would not be a good idea, and I shouldn't go. This morning WW said she felt I should still go, I told her I called my boss last night and already told him I couldn't go. She got upset and accused me of once again making a decision without her. I thought this was kind of odd based on the events that have been transpiring.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I really believe if you go now your marriage will deteriorate even further. She is deep in the fog of this addiction and I believe she is not ready to let go of the OM.<hr /></blockquote>I agree, which is why I decided not to go before I ever got to counseling, but didn't give my boss the firm, "No, I'm not going" until after the session. And no, she does not want to let go of OM. I just can't believe she's willing to tear our family apart for OM she's never met.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I wish you luck. Keep talking, make her accountable, keep checking on her..(she hasnt earned your trust yet).. and love her if she allows you to get close. I hope you are reading the marriagebuilders books. They are wonderful and are what has saved my marriage I believe. Also...take care of yourself. :-)

Thinking of you,
Lmh <hr /></blockquote>Trust is something we're going to have to work on really hard. I've not had a chance to read any MB books, but I've read the online articles. I do have a paperback I'm reading called Ignite her Fire, it's designed to help bring the romance back into our life. Money is a little tight right this moment, but as soon as I get some more, I'll be heading up to Borders. Want to get Surviving an Affair. I appreciate you sharing your perspective with me, considering you were in the same place. I'm happy you were able to pull yourself out of the fog and get your life back. I just hope WW decides to work on this instead of running into OM's arms.

edited for personal reasons

[ March 20, 2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW,

I'm so sorry she does not seem to want to try but I have to tell you one thing she is probably trying to do is blame you for her lying ways and her cheating.. YOU are not to blame for her affair. It falls only on her shoulders.. so dont buy what she is saying to her 'so called' best friend.. I was also wondering does this friend cheat too?..because usually 'birds of a feather'...as the saying goes.. Who else can she tell her awful story to?..Who else will enpathize with her knowing she is a betrayer?

She is sooo into the fog she cant see straight right now RW, and honestly maybe she will have to move out for a time to find out for herself. Most affairs end and once the initial high is over most lose their lustre, believe me.. I have been there and I can tell you what starts out with such excitement and passion can change just as abruptly when realism hits.. and maybe this will be for the best..if she moves and gets to see the OM freely and the forbidden aspect of this is gone because she is free..

I hope you will talk to the counselor about this and take care of yourself.. You need someone else also..a friend, a family member, someone who cares about you and will be there for you.. Stay busy dont grovel dont beg and dont give in to her..dont accept that this is your fault either.. If you have loved her and been a caring husband (remember none of us are perfect thats not what I mean), if you are trying now, you need to continue holding your head up and dont allow her to put the blame on you.. Keep posting and reading..good luck to you..

Wishing you well..and hoping you will stay strong and know that others do care.. Take care.. I will post more Monday..

Hugs
Lmh

Well, my previous post indicated things don't look so good to me, and now I'm really surprised. I was on the way home yesterday, and I noticed what a beautiful day it was. I decided I would ask WW to take a walk with me. Surprisingly, she agreed. I don't remember the last time we just took a walk for nothing. I know she's concerned about whether or not we can even forgive each other. I tried explaining every person has the capacity within themselves to forgive, and I don't want to forget, this is my eye opener, my learning experience, and I'll never forget.

It was at this point, she started opening up to me. She expressed her biggest fear is staying, and nothing changing. She doesn't want to spend the next 5 years wishing she had left. I don't want that either. I asked if she could give me 6 months to show her. This is where it really started getting interesting. She indicated she didn't want to waste any more of her life on a go nowhere relationship. I said, "What's 6 months to prove myself compared to the last 7 years?". She said, "Good point." and further explained she felt I deserved at least that much. Now, I'm thinking at this point, maybe things aren't over, I have more of a chance than I thought I did after the first counseling session.

We started sharing ideas on how to handle this 6 month period. Here's what we came up with.

She will move into a nearby 1 bedroom apt, that's all she can afford with her budget. I offered to continue making her car payments and paying her insurance for the next 6 months. She's still my wife and is giving me the chance I asked for. She said I didn't have to, but I'm already doing it now, and if we decide to split up in 6 months I'll stop paying them. She said ok.

We will spend a minimum of 30 minutes a day talking to each other with no interuptions.

The kids will stay with 1 parent for a couple of days, and then the other for a couple of days, and we'll alternate like that. We just want to make this as unstressful on the kids as possible, and we both want to continue being there for them.

We'll date exclusively with each other, there will be no OP. She says she's giving me the chance to fall in love with me again, not someone else. We have not established how many times a week we'll go do something. Personally, I'd like it to be 3 or 4 times a week.

We'll continue to go to our weekly counseling sessions until no longer needed.

At this point, of her on volition, she tells me she called OM today and told him if she decided to work on our marriage there would have to be NC. She said he didn't like the idea, but understood she needs to do what she needs to do. I figure before this conversation I had lost her anyway, so I figure she's got no reason to lie to me at this point. I realized she had this conversation before we made these plans, which indicates the NC should be initiated soon, and I will continue to pressure until I know it's been initiated.

If you read the last post (since deleted for personal reasons) then you know she was pretty much done with us. Now it looks like, I've been doing the right things, and may have said a few of the right things.

Why don't spouses come with a guide book? Needless to say, she left this morning for her girls only camping trip with our 2 daughters, and her best friend since high school and her 2 daughters. 6 girls...out in the woods...sounds like a horror movie waiting to happen. They'll be home Sunday afternoon, and we have our first date, ok, it's more of a lunch date, on Monday. I'm going to stop and pick up a nice modest sized floral bouquet on the way.

WW mentioned at some point I was more than free to talk to best friend. So I did last night. I was so relieved to find out I wasn't hated, and that the support was for WW to do whatever it was she felt like she had to do to be happy. Best friend is really excited for us. Coming from Best Friend who knew about all of this from the beginning, I feel more positive about these turn of events.

[ March 20, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW

Please go back and reread this whole post again.. Slow down and read some of the things she has said to you in the last week. She is deep in the addiction of this affair and you think things will improve if she moves out?..You are going to help her with her bills so she can swing it huh? I'm so sorry to say this but you are allowing her to walk all over you.. She is buttering you up so you will help her financially...she has not stopped with the OM and moving out will drive her into his arms.. I would bet my life on it..

She sounds very selfish and shows no remorse for what she is putting you through..she does not say she will stop seeing OM and why should she? She will be free..she wont have to worry you are key logging what shes doing on the computer any longer, she wont have to worry about you not going to baghdad or that you will be around to see what she is up to every moment...she will be in her own apartment and living free as a single woman...

Please rethink helping her with her bills so she can afford to move out unless you want to lose your wife. I think you are not seeing the forest for the trees..but to each his own..I do believe you need to read more on this site and get the experiences of so many who have been down the same road youre on..I think she's on her way out the door and the next step is divorce..I'm so sorry you are making it so easy for her ..she's manipulating you cant you see???

I wish you luck
Lmh

[ March 21, 2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

LMH,

You're right. I guess I got excited all might not be lost and that I had my foot in the door. After I got off work Saturday, I went to Borders and picked up "Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs/Her Needs". "Lovebusters" is on order and I should have it by the end of the week. I'm about half way through "Surviving an Affair" now. It was while I was reading that I realized we are heading in the wrong direction. I've got to convince her, if she's going to give me a try, then she's got to give up OM. We've got to give each other access to all of each others accounts.

Even if I do get her to stay, there is still the problem that she can still call/email OM from work. I'll never be able to have access to those accounts.

Maybe she'll see my Surviving an Affair lying around and actually read it. I think it might do her some good as well.

I'm still improving myself every day. I wish I had started this self improvement long ago. I feel really good about myself.

WW's camping with the girls, so the house is clean, and I've had lots of time to think. I've also been taking care of her horse. Of course, all I had to do yesterday was bring her in from her paddock and put her in her stall. Today, I let her out and cleaned her stall. WW said I didn't have to clean her stall, that she'd do it when she got back. I figure after the long drive it'll be nice to find a stall that doesn't need cleaning. I'm also going to pick up some stuff from the store for dinner. I just hope the don't stop somewhere along the way and get something.

I can't believe this is even happening. I just don't understand how I let this happen. Somehow I have to convince WW to stay here for us to work this out. We shouldn't be jumping out of Plan A so quickly I think. I just hope it doesn't come to Plan B. Only problem is, I can't stop her from leaving. I can only hope she sees the light and we can initiate NC with OM and start getting through withdrawel.

Thanks for taking the time to help steer me in the right direction, sometimes, it's difficult to think clearly through all the emotions.

A few posts up, I talked about a conversation WW and I had on Friday. The results seemed favorable at the time. I was just happy to get my foot in the door, and it wasn't until later after I had time to think about it, that I realized maybe it wasn't such a good idea.

WW was out camping with the kids, so I had a good long time to think about it. By the time WW and kids got home, house was completely cleaned, I had taken care of WW's horse, and I even planned and made dinner. Things seemed to be going very well. Then, after kids were asleep, I mentioned to WW about the things I had been thinking about, that maybe we should modify our arrangement some. This immediately put her on the defensive.

I remembered not to raise my voice, use sarcasm, or insults. She of course quickly resorted to sarcasm. She said I ruined a perfectly good evening. And, this is how I did it.

I once again asked her to completely break off all communication with OM. She still maintains if she does this, then it'll be other friends of hers in the long run, and refuses to give one bit. She absolutely refuses NC with OM. After listening to what she had to say, I tried explaining my side, she was hardly receptive. She has a LOT of resentment for the last 4 years, probably to the point of hatred. She has said she doesn't love me anymore, and I'm lucky that she's even willing to give me a chance to win back her love. I tried explaining, she's setting me up for failure by not agreeing to NC with OM. She doesn't agree. I asked if I could talk to OM. She wanted to know why. I said I wanted to tell him how I felt about her. She responded, so you can piss all over your territory like a dog?

Through all her sarcasm and insults, I still maintained my composure. She's in complete denial. The more we talked the more upset she became. And then she slipped a vital piece of information. OM is married with kids, and they are in counseling. That's the real reason why she didn't want to let me talk to him. She's afraid I'll tell OM's BS what's going on. She didn't want me to know he was married even. He lives several states away. It's not like they would ever be able to be together. If WW and I divorced we'd still live close to each other for the kids sake, and OM would probably do the same.

I know she called him on the 16th around midnight. She then called her work so his number wouldn't be in redial. However, she's not as smart as she thinks she is. As soon as the telephone bill for this month comes out, I'll have his number. Even if she hides the bill, I can still call the phone company and get the number placed on that day at that time, to OM's state.

She doesn't know it yet, but if it comes down to her moving out, I won't help her financially. She's going to have to do it on her own.

All this makes much more sense now. I was able to smooth things over enough last night that she didn't sleep on the couch. I was even able to sleep with my arm around her.

We're both pretty much in agreement to disagree about whether or not what she's doing is an affair or not. Her definition of an affair is the more widely accpeted physical one, while mine is an affair of the heart.

Our lunch date is still on for today. I'm going to stop and pick her up a bouquet of flowers and a card that says how I feel about her. I'm going to back off on the OM situation and leave that for counseling. I'll post later how lunch date goes.

[ March 22, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Hi RW

I'm am happy to hear you are reading alot.. The books you have been reading are wonderful and will help you as well as reading at this board.. I have all the books and it has saved my marriage.. also this forum has done so much for me..and helped me find my way out of the fog I was in as well.

I am happy to hear you sound so much stronger and have your head on straight and that things seem to be going better. I agree with you about not enabling her to move out by helping with her expenses if she does so. That is just one more thing that will help her see this for what it is..nothing but fantasyland.

I wish you continued success and hope she will realize soon she is harming her marriage all for nothing but an illusion.

Take care and keep posting...youre doing great!

Lmh

We had our lunch date today. I thought it went well. I stopped and got her some flowers and a card. When I got to her work I saw a web page on her computer for a website that offers free email accounts. Well, she's created a new email account.

WW totally makes me feel she has no interest in continuing our marriage. It's just amazing, she tell's me stuff to my face and it's all smoke and glass. She went so far as to say she doesn't think what she's doing with OM is an affair.

To top it all off, she left a message for him on website called deviantart.com saying she was sooo horny, and was going to try being online later, even mentioned spiking my drink with ruffies. She's still declaring her love, etc.

She's also made it perfectly clear, without a doubt she's moving out. I fully expect her to cyber with OM tonight effectively making her caught in lies again.

Why am I even trying to stay in love with someone who has made it absolutely clear she doesn't love me and wants to move out? Why am I even bothering hoping she comes back? Seems like it's all nothing but a waste of time and energy on my part.

If she's just going to write me off, I don't understand the necessity for all the deception. Why let me think by dating that I stand a chance? I don't know how much longer I can take before it won't matter anymore, and I just let her go like she wants. It's like she's enjoying all the pain and suffering she's causing me.

Hi RW

I'm so sorry things are continuing but at least you know about it and can deal with the truth of what is going on. I think continuing to use the key logger is a good idea for now.

I am not a counselor but wonder if it is time to talk to your counselor about calling the OM's wife to let her know what is going on? Is that an option that you have considered? I think that would be my next step since affairs usually dont survive when reality hits... and if his wife knows this is going on she just might affect something you have been hoping for...and cause this lovely affair to hit the skids rather than continue ...just an idea..

I wish you luck and hope things turn around soon for you..

Lmh

On our lunch date yesterday, I asked WW if she'd be interested in identifying her top 5 emotional needs ranked by priority.

WW's Top 5 emotional needs ranked by importance:

1. Conversation/Recreational Companionship
2. Honesty and Openness
3. Affection
4. Family Commitment
5. Sexual Fulfillment

My Top 5 emotional needs ranked by importance:

1. Conversation
2. Honesty and openness
3. Affection
4. Recreational Companionship
5. Sexual Fulfillment

I was surprised to discover that our top 5 are very similar.

I did some more reading last night, and realized we're somewhere in Plan A. But that will only last for about a month. At this time, she is decided she is moving out at the end of next month. Being in Plan A, I reread about it, and decided to make the most of the next month. I'm not going to talk about OM. Told WW this morning I'm not going to push the OM issue. Instead, I'm going to focus on meeting her emotional needs. I know I can keep from raising my voice, sarcasm, insults, or selfish demands. I think it's going to be the most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with. I don't know if I can keep a blind eye knowing she is continuing her emotional affair with OM, and absolutely refuses to be swayed one way or the other from her deciding to do what she wants, when she wants.

I told her that I would not make her car payments, or pay for car insurance based on my understanding of what she claims to be the motivations for moving out. She says she doesn't know who she is anymore and wants to find out. She said who knows, she could come crawling back in a month.

On a side note, she did allow me to fulfill #5 on her emotional needs list. It was probably the most intense time we had in a long time. I went to Bed, Bath, and Beyond in the mall. I selected some scented candles and a smoothing oil. Jasmine Vanilla is the flavor. Very, very, nice. Gave her a full body massage, not going to mention where it went from there. Love bank balance increase? Dunno...

Of course, afterwards she ran straight for the computer, and I'd even bet she was on the phone with OM last night. I'll have the OM's home number just as soon as my telephone biling cycle is complete. Phone company said they never have access to the information for the current billing cycle. Once I have his number, if it's not unlisted, I should be able to cross reference and get his address as well.

I just hate thinking about her finding out if I call OM's wife. I'm sure it would be over right then and there, for good.

I just can't stand this pit of despair I'm in, or the utter hopelessness of the situation.

I'm obtaining a new software today. EBlaster 3.0 to replace my current software. The current software doesn't show entire chat conversations, just her side. Going to appeal to her emotional need #2 and let her watch me uninstall the old software. Of course, she has no idea about the new software. I'll try and keep my cool about what's going on, but I refuse to allow myself to be blindsided.

Just got off the phone with WW. She was evaluating her budget for the changes of having to be responsible for her car and insurance. At this point she said something about seeing a bankruptcy lawyer. I said, isn't that kind of drastic? She said, it's only for 7 years, and only affects buying a house. My response was, well, there are alternatives. And she said,"like what?"

Sooo, I tell her that as long as she's still living with me, then I don't mind paying the car payment and the insurance. And, if we do manage to reconcile I'd really hate to see our chances at getting our own place hurt by this. I also mentioned that I told her this morning I was going to back off on the OM issue. She said she'd think about it.

But I definitly know I stand a better chance of winning back her love if she's still in the house vs. somewhere else.

Not sure where we're going, but I hope she stays, regardless of how difficult for me it will be.

Well, she went to the bookstore today, and bought a book. Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay.

Appearantly, I'm not written off completely. Guess, I'll just keep focusing on her emotional needs. Next counseling session is on Thursday, wonder how that is going to go.

When I got home from work, I received an email from WW, it was a Dr. Phil relationship evaluation. The higher the number, the worse your relationship, and even said anything over 32 indicated a relationship in serious danger of failing. I scored a 37, would have had a lower score before DDay. Her score was a 48.

While reading activity logs, discovered she emailed or mailed a letter to OM. In it she appearantly talks about the decision of whether or not to stay and work this out or forge out alone. His response was he understood, and would respect whatever decision she made.

She admitted to having ambivalence about her situation, so it would seem she's not entirely convinced we can't have a new beginning.

On a side note, the activity logs indicated she logged off the computer to call him around 12:30 this morning. I woke up for some reason around that time. Went outside for a smoke, and there she was, on the phone with OM. She quickly darted inside, only to return a few minutes later. She asked why I was up, I said I woke up and decided to have a smoke. I then asked if that was OM, and she said,"yes". She then proceeded to explain of her own accord what they were talking about. WW got digital camera recently and has been taking some amazing pictures. She's got a wonderful eye. She said they were discussing those pictures. Whatever, not like I asked what they were talking about. I was upset by the mere fact they were talking. I didn't say anything else for awhile, and she asked if I was going to say anything. My response was what did she want me to say? Yeah, I'm upset, it hurts, but did she want me to get mad about it? She said no. Talked for a few minutes, in as much of a caring voice as I could. She managed to open up a little and said she's afraid. If she stays, it could end up the same way it's been going for so long. She also mentioned one of the first questions in the book she bought yesterday, asked if she was even in love in the beginning of the relationship, and she wasn't sure. I told her I understood her fear, and that I was here to work with her to make a new beginning better than before. We went inside, and I asked her to come to bed with me. She agreed.

So after I read the activity log this morning, I decided to call her at home and ask if she would stay off the computer totally tonight and talk with me after the kids go to bed. She wanted to know what for, and I said to spend time together, and to discuss the results of our relationship evaluation. I figure it couldn't hurt to analyze our answers and see what we could do to improve the different areas. She reluctantly agreed, and said something to the effect of great, 2 nights in a row we have to spend talking about our relationship. She mentioned her feelings aren't like a lightswitch that she can just turn on/off. I agreed, and mentioned if she'd open up to me and try to receptive, that it would help and over time we could be happier than either of has has ever been. Our next counseling session is tomorrow, so I guess she assumed we would spend the evening discussing it. I won't complain.

At this point I want to eliminate as much time as I can that she spends online with OM. I feel at least that way, we can try and spend some quality time together. Tonight, may be difficult but I think if I done right, could do some good. I need every opportunity to swing the scales.

LMH is right, if she moves out, I'm sure it'll be over. I never imagined I'd be in this situation, experiencing this pain.

Hi there. I've read this whole thread and am moved by your situation.

First, let's get together on this responsibility thing. OK so your M was imperfect before. You can take about 50% of the responsibility for that but definitely not 100%. The A is 100% your W's responsibility because whatever the state of the relationship an EA wasn't the answer.

And don't let's argue about the definition of an A. Personally I'd say that they crossed the line when they started talking about loving each other but even if they're really "just friends" it's a relationship that's hurtful to you and that ought to be enough.

I think you definitely should tell the OMW. She has a right to know - especially since she and her H are in counselling. The effect will be to make your WW very, very angry. But is the OM offering to leave his W and live with her?

Lastly I'd say do not agree to her moving out or do anything to make that easier. She's in fog right now and will try to organise her life so that she can continue with both you and the OM. You need to run Plan A for long enough and well enough that your W sees (a) that a relationship with OM is not really an option and (b) that rebuilding her M is a more attractive option than she previously thought.

Hope this helps.

RW,

I think you are doing a good job keeping emotions under control but at what price? I dont know how you can deal with knowing she is on the phone with OM and talking to him online and then invite her to bed and not even be angry about it. I'm not so sure she is getting the message that you will NOT put up with this behavior. I think it is time you discuss her sending OM a no contact letter..she needs to start to show you she's trying ..Where is her remorse??

I am only saying if it was me I wouldnt be able to continue with someone who was treating me so disrespectfully.. Do you really want this relationship at all costs? Or do you want it only if she loves you and is willing to try too? It's up to you. Where is her remorse and compassion for the pain she's putting you through?

I also think you need to really consider contacting OMs wife to let her know whats going on if you can get the phone number. She has the right to know and I'm sure would appreciate not being in the dark about what her husband is up to. The biggest reason to do this is because affairs usually die with disclosure to the other spouse. Fantasy cannot survive in the face of reality you know.

I think monitoring her is a good idea but what good does it do if there are no consequences for the things you find? You continue to see she is betraying you. What will it take for you to set a few boundaries in this relationship? Disrespectful judgments and the other ideas discussed in the books youre reading are only for AFTER the WS has ended things with the affair partner...not while it is ongoing..I hope you will stick up for yourself and not allow her to walk on you RW.

If I were you I'd let her know in no uncertain terms the affair has to end ..but I'm not you. All of this is up to you and I wish you the best of luck.

Thinking of you
LMH

youre wife does still love you.The thing is she does not consider the chatting an affair and you do. I have been throught the same thing with my husband. He was hiding it from me and when I found out i was devastated. That was 9 months ago. Alot of talking , tears and such later i understand more. If he wanted to leave me he would have left a long time ago. He had every chance. He still has a friend he cybers with but he tells me when he is going to do it. He explains it like it is entertainment and he has told the other person that it is.Just for fun.( months ago I would never have believed him.I have even tried it and I still love my husband and have no intention of running off with my friend. My friend tells me everything I want to hear. But I still love my husband.Actually we are doing much better.We have made rules of conduct which you should know about being in the service. No emails, no phone calls and no showing private parts on web cam. I am not suggesting this as a soluation. I just feel your wife does love you but for some reason she is frustrated. It couuld be anything talk to her find out, This is the woman you love and should not be afraid to discuss anything with her. Let her know you want to talk and then let her dont react to something if it is hurtful hear her out then let her know how you feel. We used to talk for days. We had to to save our marraige.Just rember it is your marraige and you two are the ones who decide how it goes and what works for you.Do whatever feels right and works if it mean you will succeed.bless you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Lovesaved:

She's already admitted it's not all my fault. I agree, it's an EA, regardless of whether or not she thinks it is. She's had 4 long years to stew on her frustrations for my unintenionable negligence of our relationship. I have intercepted once or twice where she has indicated she hates seeing me hurt, but she's shown me no remorse. I intend to make an anonymous phone call to the wife just as soon as I'm able. I'm waiting for this month's telephone biling cycle to end so I can get the number.

I haven't gotten any indication that OM is willing to pack up and come live with WW. She knows I don't agree with her moving out, but I can't stop her. And she knows I won't do anything to help that end. I figure I'm in Plan A, as I've requested she cease all communication with OM. She has not complied or shown any interest in doing so. She's completely not happy with our marriage and says she's undecided whether or not she even wants to make it work. So, I trudge through Plan A, trying to meet all her Emotional Needs and not cause LB's.

I firmly believe she really is confused, I dont think EA is helping her deal with the current situation though. I'm hoping she'll stay offline tonight, and after our talk come to bed. Obviously there can't be anything online that she can't access tomorrow. I'm trying everything I can to show her that our her and my family are foremost in my focus for reconcilliation.

LMH:
It's extremely difficult to contain all the LB emotions. Oh, I was angry, but I didn't show it to her. I let her see the hurt. I've requested NC letter, but don't think I'm going to get anywhere with that until she decides if the marriage is even worth saving.

I love her more than anyone ever. I think it's possible if we give 100% to rekindle our relationship into something far beyond it ever was. I'm just trying everything I can to get her to trust me. She's afraid I won't be able to stay the new/improved me.

At this point, the hurt has been done, I monitor now, just to prevent myself from being blindsided.

I asked for NC with OM, but she refused. If she decides she wants to try to rekindle our relationship, I will demand NC with OM. At this moment though, I think I'm just as unsure as she is. She's talking personal bankruptcy just so she can afford to move out on her own. Appearantly she doesn't realize the impact this will have on her for the next 10 years. Either that or it's more diserable than being with me. To give you some idea of the horrible toll this is taking on me, I've lost 17 pounds since DDay, and that was 12 days ago. I don't know how much longer I can take this. I don't understand why she can't see how much I love her.

RW

I'm just so sorry you are going through this and I hope you will take care of yourself today. Go out with a friend, have a nice lunch or dinner, try to relax. I really think you are doing everything possible and in giving suggestions, I hope I am not coming across as if I think I have the answers for your life ..I am just a woman who has seen the other side and I am offering you my take on things.. but IT IS YOUR LIFE.. and you know better than anyone else what is best for you.. I think if you keep reading the books it will help alot in making decisions and in my mind, you have come to some good decisions already.

I agree that it's futile to ask for NC until she agrees she wants the marriage but it is a necessity to show her remorse and love and to begin the process of repairing your marriage..so I'm hoping in time she will come around.

I think your decision to call and inform OMW of the A is correct and has the potential to blow their EA out of the water..

As always I wish you well..
Be good to yourself today
Hugs
LMH

[ March 24, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

LMH

I appreciate everyone's input, anything that can help me deal with this on a day to day basis is more than welcome. At this point I'm just trying to do everything I can to make staying and working this out attractive to her.

I was surprised when she agreed to stay offline tonight. I called her after she got to work, and I thanked her for agreeing to stay offline tonight. She said it wasn't like she had much choice. I pointed out I asked her, didn't tell her. But somehow I fear, when it gets late, she'll think of some excuse to get on. I get up for work at 5 am, so usually like to get to bed before midnight. Lately though, seems like she's rushing me off to bed. The key to tonight, well be keeping her off the computer and have her go to bed with me.

Ack, now my tummy's hurting again. Just thinking about her and all this is the worst, and I can't stop. There's got to be something I can do, something I can say, that will swing her decision in my favor. I just can't for the life of me, think of anything I haven't tried in the last 12 days.

Pinkypuddle:

I'm not so sure she loves me anymore, and she is planning on moving out. They aren't just cybering, they are pledging their love to each other. This is definitly a full blown emotional affair, and I don't know if I can snap her out of it. I'm hoping tonight we'll be able to talk about our feelings and hopefully work on a few emotional needs, hers and mine. There is just too much up in the air at the moment with no end in sight.

Wow, the last 24 hours have been so emotionally exhausting.

Talked to WW around lunchtime yesterday, and she pretty much indicated we were done.

I left work early to digest that distressing bit of news. By the time I got home, she had sent me an email. I'll include that here.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />You don't know how difficult our conversation this afternoon was for me. I do love you, and I do care about how you feel. I can't have lived with you for seven yars and be completely devoid of any feelngs for you - they just aren't the same feelings a wife has for her husband, instead, they are the feelings of a friend to a friend. I know this is very difficult for you, too. I hate hurting you like this, but I also hate the thought of being in a loveless marriage. You deserve someone who loves you as much as you love them. It's not fair to you that I don't return your love as strongly as you give it to me. I don't want us to end up hatin geach other, and that's what I'm afraid will happen in the long run, when resentments grow.

I hate this most of all because of DD(3)and DD(12). They are my world and I can't imagine the confusion DD(3) will feel when mom or dad aren't there all the time. We are both excellent parents and I think that with a lot of work and cooperation between us, both girls will adjust just fine. I also firmly believe that staying together for the kids is a very bad idea. Yes, it hurt when my parents divorced, but I was glad they did, too. The tension in the house vaporated when they separated. I don't know if you've noticed, but the tension in our house has been pretty heavy lately, and DD(12) is definitely reacting to it.

Here is my proposal to you - I know we've already discussed this once, but you later decided it wouldn't work. I'll offer it again. Let me move out for six months, minimum, with no other motive than to separate from each other and give both of us a chance to get our brains in order. I think that to discover if I can love you again I have to be away from you. being around you all the time merely reminds me of all the reasons I don' t love you any more, despite the wonderful efforts you have made this past week. The efforts have been noticed, and appreciated. I will give us six months to attempt reconciliation and just see how things work with us apart. After six months we will re-evaluate us and see where things stand. Honestly, I really, really don't want to rush into a divorce without trying. I can, and will, try, but I think being apart will do us a world of good, no matter what the final result may be. I don't want to just give up on us without at least trying, I really don't, but I also don't want to lead you on and then just break your heart all over again if things don't work out.

I don't say any of this lightly, this isn't an overnight realization, or even a past year realization, I have been thinking about this for a very, very long time. That is probably why I seem so cold and uncaring to you. It's not that I don't care, I've just had so much more time to deal with these emotions than you have had.

We will talk more tonight, rationally, no yelling, no sarcasm, complete honesty about everything. I just wanted to get my thoughts and feelings out before we do sit down and talk.
<hr /></blockquote>Then she calls me to tell me she got a call from DD(12)'s school teacher. Appearantly a classmate saw marks on DD(12)'s arm and told the teacher. WW left work, and we picked up DD(12) and took her to the emergency room. They determined she's not suicdal, merely having a hard time coping with what's going on. Took her to family doctor this morning and agreed, but recommended a professional. Got her first appointment scheduled for 15 Apr.

We still had our talk last night, and it was as she promised, calm, cool, and collected. No insults or sarcasm. She can't promise that she'll fall in love with me, but she's willing to see if it can happen. There's just so much that needs to be worked on, that I don't see how it can be down seperated.

I'm off on Mondays, so every Monday will be a lunch date. We'll plan a night during the week where we can do something for just us. Saturday is Girls Day out, and Sunday will be family doing something.

I figure this is all she is willing to do at this point. I think pushing any farther, and I'll just lose her forever. Have counseling session number 2 today, I'm sure all of this will be addressed.

Oh yeah, started the morning around 5am when I began passing a kidney stone. So, yesterday completely sucked, and then this morning I'm in the hospital with an IV in my arm and happy juice flowing through my veins.

I'm still extremely upset over this whole thing, but it looks like we're dealing with this without all the LB's. I'd like to think it's a step forward. I guess I'll know in 6 months if I'll be stepping forward with WW or just me.

[ March 25, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Dear Rwukovich
I am so sorry your going through this mess.My heart aches for you because I'm dealing with the same problem.Is this other man in CO. if so it may be my H.Sorry. Every word you've said I can relate to,your fears,your suspisions.This is a very hard situation because you never know when they are talking especially on the phone.My situation has been so similar.My H started chatting with people about 2 years ago when he was arrested for a domestic violence situation.My kids (3 daughters)and I moved to my dads house for 3 months.Within this time my H had 4 sexual affairs, three of which he met on-line.When I came back he acted like nothing happened but then after I moved back that's when he told me what happened but he only told me minimal things learned more later.He still chatted with them all the time.I've supported our family now for many years so every day he sat home and chatted all day until he went to bed.He has even left me and the children to visit them.I've heard all the lines too.He loves me but he's not in love with me.But in my case I've done nothing wrong.I've waited on him hand and foot since the day we got married (18 yrs ago).I can look back now and see how well I've taken care of him.I even asked him what is it that he's not getting out of our relationship.He said you give me everything,your my friend,I have sex when ever,you never complain or nag about things.He told me that it wasn't me that's the problem but it's him.I've done nothing but love him.He sits and chats until we go to bed.We don't snuggle anymore,he doesn't touch me like he used to but mainly we don't communicate he's too busy on his computer.Last summer he started another affair.He would chat with her on msn while I was cooking dinner.The tourcher of watching him and hear him laugh sometimes, broke my heart.I wanted to know what they were saying to each other.Then he started leaving the house when I got home.He'd kiss me and walk out the door and not come home until late at night.I found out that they were talking on cell phones now and he would park his car somewhere and talk to her and take pictures of himself and e-mail them to her,he'd sit at his computer and play music and all the love songs while he was chatting with her and I'd be in bed crying my eyes out .He flew out to meet her well you can guess the rest.I picked him up at the airport and he couldn't even look at me,he kissed the girls on the top of the head and stuck his hands in his pockets and said hello to me. No hugs or anything.I was crushed,we drove home in silence except for the kids talking in the back seat.I know your frustration.I wanted to scream.The games my H has played with my emotions is so cruel.When we got home he wanted me to sit down and watch and look at his pictures of his trip and of course she was in them.He even had a movie.I couldn't stand it,I walked away while the kids looked with him.I couldn't believe how he didn't care how it made me feel,he didn't care.After his second trip she broke it off with him and went back with her husband.My H was hearbroken.But I was there to dry his tears and to talk to him.He was so cold with me like I had done something wrong.Anyway I think my H up to his same old tricks again.Again another summer right around the corner.I can't do this again.He chats with other people now but I think he's interested in someone in Canada now.He got an USAirways flyer in the mail yesturday so I'm sure he's been on line checking on prices.He did mention to me 2 weeks ago how he'd like to go fishing in Canada some year.He want to take trips this year and go fishing and camping by himself at times.I can't trust him.He's too deceitful.His friends on line don't know he's married.I found out that I'm either his roommate or his X-wife.Our daughter (16) over heard a phone conversation he had when I was out one day.I truely hope your wife is being sincere with you and not playing you like I feel my H doing.I have to get back to work now.God bless you and your family.It does affect everyone not just you and her.Take care

I have also been down this cyber road. One of the suggestions that was given to me was to cut WH off the internet. You have a right not to have this kind of destruction in your home. Clearly your wife's behavior is hurting the entire family.

I locked my H out of the computer, took away his admin powers and changed his password and he got extreemly threatening. So much so that I gave in and let him have his computer back. I also sent his butt out the door as he made his priorities very clear.

I don't think it is wrong to refuse the A to happen in your home. The kids do understand more than your wife thinks they do. I'm not sure locking her off the computer is the right thing to do for you but it let me know very quickly how far into this addiction my WH had gone. I realized I couldn't control his addiction.

If she does move out will the children stay with you? I would make sure they do if possible. If she wants to leave don't make it easy for her. If the OM is more important than her family then the kids should stay in their own home. She is wrong that all will be ok fo them as your D has already shown. Does she see that? Sounds like she wants to be out of the house so she can do what she wants when she wants. Have you shown her MB?

I found a great book at a christian book store called "Your Marriage and the Internet" by Thomas Whiteman, PhD and Randy Petersen. It really makes this computer problem clear. I read and reread it several times.

I'm glad you aren't leaving. I will be praying for you and your children and that her fog lifts. {{{{{hug}}}}}}}}

RW

I am so sorry to hear you arent feeling well but hope by now it's going better. Also I'm very sorry to read about your wife and the things she said indicate she is still deeeeep in the fog and thinks she's so in love with the OM ..

As I and others here have been telling you, you must let the OMW know what is going on. The way things are going it seems this might be your only hope at this point. If she gets angry does it really matter? If it ends the affair it will be worth her anger and in the end your marriage might survive.. I think this is your best chance.. also please continue MC..

So are you ready to call the OMW yet?

Take care and know all of us here support you..Hope you are feeling better soon too.

Hugs
LMH

Thank you everyone for sharing, caring, and providing input. Unfortuneatly, the books provide useful information, but my situation doesn't seem to be cooperating.

I can't stop her from leaving, but as she indicated, she's giving me a chance. I'm just not sure how half hearted a chance it is.

Counseling was last night. Basically filled out some sort of seperation contract talking about how we are to handle the next 6 months. So far, all I see is how beneficial this is for her to completely remove herself from me. This does nothing for me.

WW was talking about personal bankruptcy due to she can't afford to move out on her own and pay for car and insurance. Obviously, if somehow we manage to pull this together, I wouldn't want her bankruptcy hanging over us. Since the goal of our counselling is a happy reconciliation, the counsellor asked if I could continue paying for her car and insurance. Obviously this requires her to trust me.

After what I thought was an ok day, Here's an email she sent to OM last night that I saw this morning:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Hey darlin'! Good to hear from you! So wish[ I could have been online tonight for a whole lot of lovin'! You know I'm always up for lots of that! *gri. and a whole lot of really good conversation with my favorite sexy satyr.Couseling today went surprisingly well. I was actually very surprised at how good I felt walking out of that office this afternoon We talked to her about separating, and she agreed it was a good idea. So, we did that separation contract thing, basically laying down some ground rules for the separation so we both understand what is expected of the other person as far as finances, the kids, time together, etc. etc. go. It was good. I went to the gym afterwards and worked my [censored] off then, as I'm driving out to the barn to take care of Star, I started imagining how nice it will be when I'm heading to my own place. You have no idea how much I am looking forward to a little alone time. Some things he didn't like very much, but agreed to anyway. I limited him to one phone call a day to my work, because he's been going overboard on the calls lately, and I put my foot down on the sex thing, which he absolutely hated. I told him it just clouds the issue, and right now, it's probably not a very good idea for us to hop into bed every time one of us is feeling horny.Yeah, I'm absolutely, painfully aware of how tough it's gonna be, but I am still looking forward to it. Does that make me a bad mom, for looking forward to a little bit of time away from my girls, too? Definitely feeling guilty about that part!sultry smile I missed you today sweetheart, but definitely felt you with me every step of the way. Thank you! Well, I'm going to go ahead and get some sleep. I'm absolutely exhausted. It's amazing how much more exhausted I feel after a day of riding the emotional rollecoaster! ****, I'm less tired after running five miles than I am after having my emotions revved in high gear for awhile I will talk to you tomorrow.*My skin warms under your touch, little goosebumps along my sides as you touch me most lovingly, my heart racing with love and desire for you. delightfully car*Good night and sweet dreams, my love, my soul will be out there in dreamland tonight, loving yours with all of the passion I have.Jen, my lips softly tasting yours, my fingers exploring you, learning you, wanting you with every fiber of me<hr /></blockquote>see? how can I compete with that? I just want to throw in the towl. This is the kinda of stuff that makes me sick to my stomach.

[ March 26, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW

When will you tell the OM's wife??? You have agreed to help her with her finances so she can move out?

She only cares to be with the OM even in a long distance relationship..she is so in the fog of this addiction ..How far will it go..will he leave his family for her? I bet not and especially if his wife finds out..

I dont think you will be able to stop her if you dont find the strength to tell her you wont help her move out..by helping with finances.. I dont know why your counselor told you this was a good idea.. just doesnt add up to me but you will do what you want.

I just hate seeing you treated like a doormat..

When will you call this guys wife???

You need to do something different ..whatever you are doing isnt working..

I feel bad for you but you allow this to go on with no consequences and she gets her way if you help pay her bills...makes it easy for her to move out on ya.. dont you see that????

Maybe its time to get a little angry and stop allowing her bs..reading what she wrote to him was really sickening.. I cant believe you continue to enable her.. I'm sorry I just feel a little upset for you that she is getting away with this..it really shows how selfish she is..her lack of remorse towards you is amazing.

I wish you the best,
Lmh

LMH
<blockquote>quote:<hr />When will you tell the OM's wife??? You have agreed to help her with her finances so she can move out?<hr /></blockquote>I will tell OMW just as soon as I have the contact info, that's all I'm waiting on.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She only cares to be with the OM even in a long distance relationship..she is so in the fog of this addiction ..How far will it go..will he leave his family for her? I bet not and especially if his wife finds out.. <hr /></blockquote>I agree, and I don't know. At counseling yesterday, she agreed there would be no sexual contact with any other person. As far as OM is conerned, he's been married for about 16 years I think, and in counseling for 5 months, at least that's what WW told me. They have kids, so I think OM might take a trip to visit, but wouldn't leave his kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I dont think you will be able to stop her if you dont find the strength to tell her you wont help her move out..by helping with finances.. I dont know why your counselor told you this was a good idea.. just doesnt add up to me but you will do what you want.<hr /></blockquote>The counnselor believes at this point, that WW is going to try 100% to reconcile. We ran out of time yesterday, so I didn't get a chance to bring up that she intends to maintain the EB with OM. I don't want to lose my wife, but I feel confronting her and giving her an ultimatum, will only result in divorce. The counselor did mention, that we're only to work on communicating successfully with each other at this point, and that issues with the situation need to be addressed in our counseling sessions. I can't stop her from leaving, and don't want her to leave, and that was mentioned in counseling, but once again, out of my control. I also can't stop her from talking to OM, however, just as soon as I'm able, OMW will find out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just hate seeing you treated like a doormat..<hr /></blockquote>I hate feeling like a doormat..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You need to do something different ..whatever you are doing isnt working..<hr /></blockquote>I'm doing everything I can. I've requested she show me some consideration by not calling him from our house anymore, and to limit her online time at home. She agreed to these both. I have no control of this situation. I can't make her love me, anymore than I can make her agree to NC with OM. I feel like I'm tied into a roller coaster and the breaks have gone out. I love her with all my heart, and I'll see this through to the end, whether it's bitter or sweet, I have to wait and see. I'm not just sitting on my laurels, I try to engage her in conversation every chance I get. I express my love. I express affection. I'm trying everything except getting on my knees and begging. Probably wouldn't do that anyway, she frowns on that

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel bad for you but you allow this to go on with no consequences and she gets her way if you help pay her bills...makes it easy for her to move out on ya.. dont you see that????<hr /></blockquote>I see perfectly clearly, she will leave for good if I start issuing demands and ultimatums. She'll probably leave after I tell OMW anyway. She's going to move out anyway. If I didn't agree to pay for car/insurance she'd have filed personal bankruptcy and still moved out. If there is any hope in the future for us, I don't want that hanging over us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Maybe its time to get a little angry and stop allowing her bs..reading what she wrote to him was really sickening.. I cant believe you continue to enable her.. I'm sorry I just feel a little upset for you that she is getting away with this..it really shows how selfish she is..her lack of remorse towards you is amazing.<hr /></blockquote>I'm extremely angry, and right now, she is only thinking of herself. I've never felt so humble or humiliated in my whole life. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions, it does help to be able to talk about this.

[ March 26, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW

I feel bad for you and yet I wonder if you are really doing everything you can. You are enabling this affair to continue. Why havent you emailed the OM and told him to stop the crap or you will be calling his W? Why do you think you should have to help pay for your wife's expenses if she moves out? Why should you care if she goes bankrupt? Why are you trying so hard not to make her mad when she is the one treating you like crap?

Her mind is in la la land and when she promised in counseling that there would be no sexual contact with any other person it had to make me wonder.. Her note to him was very intimate and suggestive (gag) and I dont believe for one second that if OM came into town she would be able to stop from having sex with him.. She is fully into fantasyland ... OM is all she knows right now..shes obsessed.. she doesnt care what she does to you or your kids ..she is soooo lost in the fog and soo in love with this fantasy guy.. Its really nauseating to read what she wrote to him..I would be livid if I were you.. Your wife shows absolutely no remorse..

I'm sorry I just dont see where you are doing anything to stop her. Youre right you havent gotten on your knees to beg but you might as well have.. you are being her doormat.. I really see this as a situation where she is out the door anyway...what have you got to lose? What is stopping you from emailing the OM and telling him what you know and that his W will know everything if he doesnt stop contacting your W..Tell him he's ruining your marriage and you intend to let his wife know everything.

I'm sorry RW.. I'm upset and this will be my last post to you.. I see her treating you so bad and you allowing it..you know she's still up to something and it continues even after you find proof..

I hope you will find the strength to stop her little game..She has alot to be ashamed of in my book..and yet you treat her like a queen.. I dont understand. If I have oversteped my boundaries I am sorry.. I will refrain from posting again...but I want to wish you the best of luck. Take care of yoursel.

LMH

WW stayed up until 3am chatting with OM. This morning I discovered she took digital pictures of herself and emailed them to her.

I immediately called her and confronted her, especially because of the state I've been in for the last 3 days.

She admitted she decided to give us a try because of what happened with DD(12). Mini wake up call? I think not, especially as the emails, chatting, and calls from work continue.

I'm at work and got notification of the emails she sent with the pictures. When I called her, she was upset, and I said she was still lying to me and deceiving me. She said I was too. I said I was doing it to try and save my marriage.

I convinced her that if she was sincere about trying to build a new beginning that she had to give up OM, and I expected her to send him an email stating such, and sending me a copy.

Guess we'll see what's next.

Well, Saturday was a complete disaster. Thought I had convinced WW to agree to NC with OM. She promptly sent him an email from her alternate email account that she thought was safe. In it, she told him to ignore the email he was going to receive on the other account.

I called her and told her I was aware of the email. I thought for sure this was the last thing that would push her completely away. Called our counselor and explained everything that happened, including stuff intentionally left out here. Saturday was possibly even worse than DDay. Counselor suggested if I still wanted to go through with this, I would need to remove the software and it would be a long, painful road.

When I got home, I tried calling my dad, but accidentally called WW's best friend.

Ended up talking to WW's best friend for awhile. Best friend seems to think we're both in the wrong, and that one of us was going to have to start being honest. I removed software while talking to WW's best friend, I figured WW hearing this from her best friend might actually convince her I'm trying.

WW came home and was so cold I might as well have been at the North Pole. She talked to Best Friend later, and things seemed to be better between us. I did end up sleeping on the couch though.

Sunday we had a family day. We went to the Butterfly House in St Louis, and took the kids on a carousel made in 1920. Lots and lots of awesome pictures.

Probably the most surprising thing about Sunday...while driving in the car I put my hand on WW's leg. She didn't move my hand, instead, she put her hand on mine and wrapped her fingers around it. That's probably the most affection she's shown me since DDay. Slept on the couch again. As I was falling asleep, she asked me out on a date. She asked if I'd like to see Hellboy with her on Friday night. Personally, I would have preferred our date night be spent somewhere else where we could interact with each other.

Monday, we had our scheduled lunch date. This may have been a very productive lunch date. WW started it off by saying OM was moving back in with his W. Appearantly their 7 year old son had been hitting mom. I asked if they were going to try and work things out. WW said yes. I asked her how she felt about that, and she said she didn't like it, but he has to do what he has to do. She didn't have to tell me any of this, not entirely sure why she did. I did ask her if she thought it would be unfair for me to request her to hold off on physically meeting OM until after our 6 month period was over and we came to the conclusion to go our seperate ways. She said it was fair for me to ask that, but she didn't answer the question.

This next part, I'm going to be a little vague, but before we got married we had a different rule set. Along the way, I decided to change the rule set. This is appearantly one of the major problems in our relationship. I spent the rest of the afternoon thinking about it. I eventually came to the conclusion I could compromise on it, but she'd have to meet me in the middle.

Talked a little bit with her about it, mostly explaining my side. I think she understood. Obviously, that will take a lot more talk, if we decide we can work things out and stay together.

Appearantly, she believes there is no more spyware on the computer because she did some chatting last night. I took some slipping pills so the typing and knowing who she was typing too wouldn't keep me awake. Not sure if this is a good point or not, but didn't have to sleep on the couch.

In our last counseling session, we were advised not to talk about the relationship, but work on communicating with each other. I seem to have a small problem avoiding that subject, but I'm getting better about it.

I think this weeks counseling will be very interesting, especially since the conversation I had with the counselor on Saturday.

I realized yesterday, my biggest hang up at this point, isn't whether or not I can forgive her, or her forgive me, but rather if I can forgive myself. Can't have any forward progression if I can't forgive myself, because then I'm just dwelling in the past instead of focusing on the new future I want to build.

Live outside a small town, and DD(3) goes to daycare in town. The town has a little fitness center there. Picked up a gym bag, and I'm going to stop by there on the way to pick up DD(3) and get a membership. It's conveinent for me. I can get into the best shape of my life, and they even have tanning next door. Who knows, I might do that a couple times. I'm trying to improve every aspect of my life, WW says it's not about physical appearance, but I think it will help my self esteem, which I seem to be in pretty short supply of these days. Well, I think that's enough for now.

I have a ritual with my DD(3). When WW comes home I pick up the DD(3) and race to the door, and we greet her.

Since DDay, anytime I try to kiss WW, she would allow me to peck her on the side of her lips.

Last night, I put my hands on both sides of her face and I kissed her full on the lips. When I leaned back, she was looking at me, I mean really looking at me. I leaned in slow and kissed her again, this time with passion. She didn't push away, but instead returned my kiss.

Not entirely sure what to make of that. I would like to think we're getting somewhere, but I have my reservations.

Just doing my best right now to not talk about our troubled marriage when I do get her to talk.

I haven't let up on my expression of love and affection. I tell her how much I lover and what she means to me several times a day. Some times she responds with I love you, mostly not. I asked her last night if that was reflex, and her response was sometimes. Once again, not sure what that means.

It feels like she might be opening up to me. It's been almost 3 weeks since this all started, and we've had our good days, and our bad days. Going to do my best to make sure today is a good day, and tomorrow as well. Next counseling is tomorrow night, and I'm sure it's going to be hard, especially since my conversation with the counselor on Saturday.

WW just called me at work. Here lately that's not something she does. She called to tell me that DD(11) stayed home from school with a stomach ache. It's nice to know, but she could have just as easily told me in an email. Her calling me when she got into work felt good.

Going to try focusing on what appears to be positive adjustments, don't want to get my stomach all worked up today.

Another good point I guess, is last night and the night before she was only online chatting with OM for about an hour and a half both nights. Last night, I woke up after she turned off everything and I decided to have a smoke. At first, she asked if I was trying to catch her talking to OM on the phone. I tried explaining, I woke up and decided to have a smoke, and turned away to go back to bed. Didn't want to have that conversation, especially if she wasn't going to believe me. She stopped me, and said I just don't normally wake up and have a smoke. I reminded her I've not been getting much sleep at all these last couple of weeks. She let it go, and joined me on the porch. Then she let me know that OM was packing to move back in with his wife.

I asked where that left them, but she didn't answer the question. I added if he's moving back in with his wife to work things out, then maybe we could focus more on us working our things out. No response to that either.

I hate this roller coaster.

When it was said there would be up days and down days, they weren't lying.

I'm having a hard time not talking about the problems with our relationship. Everytime I bring it up, it just seems to push her away more. I'll admit though, I've not talked about our problems since Saturday. I managed to make it to Wednesday night.

Once again, the perspective hasn't changed much. She doesn't consider me as friend, I'm still just an irritating roommate. The changes I've made in my life are for me, but I still have the hope they are what she would like. Appearantly I'm not far off. She doesn't feel like I've made any effort to show her these feelings in the last 4 years, and now it just makes her mad because this is how I should have been all along.

She's still moving out at the end of the month, so I'm going to do my best to not talk about relationship problems except in counseling. I'm going to try focusing on just being her friend again. My major problem is my feelings for her haven't changed. It's difficult to restrain myself from hugging her, or touching her, or trying to kiss her. I'm going to do my best to just back off and give her as much space as she wants.

Counseling tonight, I'm sure most of this will be discussed. Maybe the counselor can give me some suggestions on how to prevent overwhelming WW with my feelings. I'd also like to thing the counselor can give us some pointers on how to become friends again.

WW is scared the changes I've made are only temporary, not sure how long it'll take before she believes they are permanent. Keeping my chin up, and praying every day for the strength and courage to see this through.

Had our third counseling session last night. Not entirely sure what to make of it. Not going to go into too many details, so I'm going to cover the highlights.

WW admitted the inappropriate pictures she sent OM on Saturday was wrong. I was shocked to hear her admit this.

I need to keep working on not pushing her and not talking about our problems except in front of the counselor. Next session is next Wednesday, going to try real hard not to talk about our problems.

I indicated I've been trying very hard to work on our relationship. WW admitted she had not. She explained she's mad that I'm doing all the things I'm doing now, that I should have been doing all along. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

WW again expressed she felt she could maintain her EA with OM and work on our marriage. Counselor explained for her to be able to work on her marriage she had to give up OM. WW was not ready to make that decision last night.

WW did agree to not meet OM physically until our 6 month seperation was over AND we had decided to divorce. I'm hoping this won't be an issue, because before we go any further, she's going to have to make a choice, NC with OM, or work on marriage.

We'll be spending a good amount of time with each other over the next few days. Friday night, we're going to rent a video and hang out with the kids. Saturday, we're all going to see Scooby Doo 2. Sunday my DD(11) has B-Day party at swimming pool. And, on Monday, we have our lunch date.

I pointed out while all that is great, it really doesn't leave much time for us to have quality time with no distractions, computer, tv, or kids. She's appearantly been avoiding it. Counselor suggested we do fun things together. I think WW would rather have a root canal.

I also pointed out, that she's on the computer every night from the time the kids go to bed till 11:30 or 12:30 in the morning chatting with OM. She tried explaining she wasn't only talking with OM. It's irrelevant who else she ended up talking to, her whole purpose for being on was to chat with OM.

I said she wasn't being fair to me or to OM, because supposedly OM is trying to work things out with his BS. She needs to let him go, and work on her own problems instead of keeping OM from working on his problems.

We didn't talk to much last night, she fell asleep on the couch and didn't come to bed until 1:15 am or so.

Counselor said from this point forward we need to be open and honest. No more lies.

I'm hoping by our next counseling session that she chooses NC with OM and work on our marriage.

Guess I covered more than highlights. I'll be back tomorrow with how this evening turns out.

[ April 02, 2004, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

[ April 15, 2004, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

[ April 02, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

double post...sorry

RW
I'm pretty new to this site (registered today) but not new to this problem.
I've just finished reading the last 4 pages of your postings and finally feel that theres someone who understands what i've been going through for the last 5 years (possibly longer).
I found out about the online affair about 5 years ago quite by accident while doing some work on the computer, apparently she had forgot to log off the ICQ site before leaving to go on a field trip with the kids.
Anyway, the stuff I found out in the next few hours of digging through old e-mails, checking the history etc. was just too much, way too fast....I found explicit conversations, photos, you name it - I found it.

The worst part is, I really didn't think there was a problem in the marraige, we got along good, had fun together, did things together, the entire focus in my life was my wife and kids (other than work).
After I found this, I was a total wreck, physically, emotionally.....I don't think anybody really understands the pain a person goes through unless they've been there themselves.

Here we are 5 years later, still together (barely), unable to go to counselling on a regular basis as there is only 1 in the area we live, and the closest one other than that is about a four hour drive away. We have read books and talked for hours, trying to repair our relationship and have made some progress. I think for the most part the photos and chat have stopped, but she still maintains the "private/secret" e-mail accounts, which of course she denys (I found out through a keylogger program). As yourself, I dont know what to do next, the lies are nonstop, the deceit is continuous, she claims she doesn't want a divorce or separation, but still continues the BS. Anyway, I am so tired of fighting for this relationship that I basically told her:
1- I refuse to police your activities on the internet or elsewhere, you know right from wrong. 2- Do not put me in the position of a "parent-child" type relationship, you are my equal and my partner - act like it! I refuse to "check up on you" as one would an unruly teenager!
3- If you need professional help, I will go to any lengths possible to get help for you.
4- I will not and cannot control your actions! The only control I have in this situation is my REACTION.
5- Please know that I love you! But there is a limit as to what the kids and I will endure.

I guess what I finally did was put the ball in her court. I told her I would do almost anything to make this work, but the ultimate decision is hers and hers alone to quit what she is doing.
Right or wrong, I really don't know what else to do at this point.
Thanks for letting me vent here RW, I don't often get a chance to get this incredible weight off my shoulders. Good luck in your relationship and know that you are not alone in this situation as much as it feels like it right now.

Well, I'm to the point where I feel she absolutely wants out. I'm not sure why she suggested counseling. We have a seperation contract, but I think the seperation is just to say goodbye. I don't know why she's letting me think we have a chance.

I don't know, maybe she really is confused. Sure doesn't seem like it though. I'm going to see this through for as long as I can. But, once she moves out, I think she won't do anything but grow further away.

It's ok to vent here, hehe, that's what I'm using it for. I'm through most of the hurt stage, and now I'm more into the frustrating/angry stage, it still hurts, but I'm able to deal with it better I think. Regardless of what happens in the next 6 months, I will be a better person for it and it will never happen again whether I'm with WW still or someone new that can appreciate me for who I am.

I'm sorry to hear about your struggle. Kudo's for sticking it out as long as you have. At some point, we just have to sit down and decide what the right thing to do is for ourselves.

I don't want to rip my family apart, but I think that's where she's taking it. I think she feels once we seperate we'll just shuffle the kids back and forth every few days. I don't want it to come to that.

I'm feeling invisible here.. neither one of you said a word to me.. RW.. I guess its your post so I will disappear again.. you are as lost in your pain as I am I guess.. but I have tried to help you but you dont seem to be aware I'm here.. love being ignored..

LMH

Sorry, didn't mean to make you feel you were being ignored. When I posted earlier I didn't even look for new responses to my thread.

I appreciate you being able to understand what I'm going through. It's real tough, but it's not just me, it's the kids too. WW is only thinking of herself atm. She's admited it to some extent. I'm not even sure where the EA stands atm. I don't even know if what WW told me about him moving back in with his wife is true or not. All I know is how I feel right now. And I know, I'll never be able to forget the hurt she's put me through. I'm just dying for her affection, it's like I'm slowly starving to death. I just feel once she moves out, it's over. I don't even know how she's going to be able to afford living on her on. She'll practically be in poverty.

She applied for car refinancing today, and she even mentioned to me about cashing in her 401k. Just seems she's so desperate to get away. Counselor seems to think this seperation would be good for us so that our hurt can heal. Personally, I think it's just an out, and there's nothing I can do stop her.

All I know is that the more I fight to hold onto the love I feel for her, I can feel her love bank account diminishing.

I'm sorry to hear you heard from OM today. I hope you stay strong and avoid any further communication with him. You can do it.

Well, Friday didn't go so well. We rented Lion King 1/2 and WW brought pizza home. After the movie was over she went to the barn to check on her horse. When she got back. She got on the computer and was on the phone at the same time with her best friend.

Kids were in bed, and I patiently waited for her to get off the phone so I could try to have some quality time with her. She was on the phone from 9pm till past 11pm. That's when I went to bed, so don't really know when she got off the phone. Woke up around 12:30am when DD(3) woke up and climbed into bed with me. Went to check on WW and she was still online, but not on the phone, and she was chatting with OM. Went back to bed.

WW came to bed around 1:15am, and I asked her if I had backed off enough for her comfort, and she said yes. This morning before I left for work, I always say bye and give her a hug and a kiss. She seemed pretty friendly.

New suspicions though. Been thinking about how things are going and the fact that she's trying to refinance her car and thinking about cashing in her 401k. She says she's planning for both possible outcomes.

However, I'm thinking that's not necessarily the case. I think, she knows she can't make it on her own without my help. Because of this, I think is why she's not making a choice to actively work on this or not. Regardless of my suspicions, I'm going to continue with my present course. I'm going to make mental notes of every evening and how they are spent. I will bring all of this up in counseling on Wednesday.

Going to see Scooby Doo 2 this afternoon when I get off work. It'll be another evening where she and I can have some quality time. We'll see if she tries. Today is DD(12)'s B-Day. She's not real excited. Her knowing everything that is going on is weighing heavily on her. She has her own counseling on the 15th.

WW is very intelligent. I'm almost 100% sure she's maintaining her abivalence to trying or not so that she can actually move out on her own. I believe she has no intention of ever trying to work on our relationship. Counselor said we need to do fun things together. WW doesn't want to do anything with me unless the kids are present.

Don't know if I'll have time to post tomorrow or not, it's going to be a busy day. I'll definitely post on Monday.

went thru this several years ago, and it was the worst 8 months of my life. All you can do is keep your head up and keep on going, of course it took my wife from going to an EA with a guy in NC (then she supposedly wanted too reconcile), then to a PA(3 years later) with a guy at her work, to make her realize how lucky she is..... or so shes says.

Just trying to give you hope my friend, even though right now there is so little too be had.Go to your DR and ask about AD's I waited almost a month before i did and man do they help.

My wife was the same way, cold, aloof and the kicker was i worked overnights so she had all the time in the world to chat and then have phone conversations, she even was going out there to see the guy. I can almost guarantee your wife will try and go see him or he come to her. thats why she wants to move out, so she doesnt fel guilty about it. my wife kicked me out of our house, then because the friend i had was single she didnt like me staying there, so she asked to stay at her mothers house, boy i was so much in love with her that i did things that people would swear theyd leave their spouse before doing anything for a cheating spouse. but for love,you and I my friend would do anything.

Just had my ten year anniversary, so like i said keep your chin up! she might not stop the EA till its a PA and the guy dumps her, (and he will once he gets the PA done) then she'll really be wondering what went wrong.be there, be strong , act like you dont have a care in the world even if your heart feels like its about too bust(and it wil be hell) just dont do like i did and get stupid. I ate a bottle of sleeping pills over it.

my prayers are with you.
cliff

Thanks for the support Cliff.

Well Friday night was pretty much a bust. WW feel asleep on the couch with DD(3). After the movie was over, she woke up and went to the barn to check on her horse. When she got back, straight to the computer. It was a tense night.

Saturday, she was out with the girls all day. When I got home from work I took DD(12) to see Scooby Doo 2 for her BDay. WW opted to stay home with DD(3) because she hadn't had a nap. WW did do somethings like make dinner. But I'm sure she did a lot of chatting too. She feel asleep on the couch, and I managed to get her to come to bed with me around 10pm or so.

Sunday, went to the barn with her to care for her horse. It was nice, stress free, and we did ok conversation wise. After we got home, she messed around with some digital pictures until it was time to go to DD(12)'s indoor pool party. This place is awesome. Gym, weights, aerobics, exercise equipment, and the pool w/hot tub. There's a 2 story slide, and the kiddie pool has a slide as well. DD(3) did NOT want to go home after playing for 2 hours. She cried all the way out the door and for about 10 minutes after that she fell asleep.

WW let me help with dinner. It was ok, but I only thing she let me help because the counselor suggested we make dinner together. After dinner, I finished giving DD(3) a bath, and WW got on computer. Know for sure she chatted with OM. Also saw a message from him on the art website they both visit. It was like half a page of stuff. I asked what he had to say. She told me something that might have taken a paragraph. I asked what else he had to say, and she said not much. I commented wow, a half page of nothing, yeah, right.

At one point I was in the kitchen and tripped over a stool and she thought I was pissed she was chatting with him and slamming things around. When I got back into the living room. She said, I know it pisses you off when I'm chatting so I signed off.

Well at this point, I needed her to know I wasn't pissed per say, and this is where the double edged sword hit. She got back on chat. I stayed up prolly till about 11pm and went to bed. She came to bed about 1145pm.

It's very difficult to try and be pleasant all the time like there's nothing wrong. It's very difficult to show affection, and express my love when it's not returned.

I really feel at this point, that she's waiting for something. And I think that is her moving out. I'm not sure why she won't admit she's already made her decision, but she still completely avoids spending any quality time with me without distraction.

I talked with her Mom yesterday while she was out riding before dinner. Made sure MIL knew the whole truth. MIL is very upset over the whole situation, and feels somewhat responsible due to her failed relationships that WW grew up with. All in all, MIL is on my side and thinks that WW is being selfish and self centered. She also feels there is nothing she can do.

Surprise, surprise. While having a smoke with WW on the porch last night, WW mentioned MIL told her that she shouldn't be so mean to me. I guess WW did a lot of thinking on that, and realized she's been quite cruel, and she said,"I apologize."

MIL is concerned about WW's moral and ethical choices. As am I. She's already admitted to me of feeling no remorse for her PA 2 years ago. I'm beginning to think maybe I need to just let her go, for the children's sake.

I don't know how I'm going to get through the next month. DD(12) doesn't want me to give up, and for my family's sake, I'd like to work things out. At this point, I'm afraid by the end of the month, her LB withdrawels are going to reach zero.

Maybe that's what she's doing. Giving me a chance to stop loving her before she leaves. Maybe she's expecting me to give up. Maybe she thinks I'll give up because she already has. I just know one thing, I'm still madly in love with her, and this whole situation hurts, not just me, but the kids too.

We have our Monday lunch date today. So far, I've been able to avoid conversations involving our relationship. I think I'm starting to get the hang of it.

Counseling is on Wednesday, and I'm hoping to make it there without any LB's. Since we were going to see Hellboy last Friday night for our date, and stayed home instead, she wants to make that our date this week. Personally, I don't think going to a movie counts as a quality time date.

I live between 2 small towns, but I'm associated with the one north of where I live. There is a little fitness center for about $40 a month. Not, the best thing in the world, but it's just up the street from DD(3)'s daycare. I thought it would be real convienent for me. After the BDay party yesterday, I discovered that place has family membership for about $35 a month. It's 15 minutes north of daycare, but I think I could manage. Just not entirely sure I want to do that with WW. She would still have access after she moves out. But, she'd be able to take the kids there on the days she has them.

Anyway, going to wait for WW to call me and let me know when to pick her up for lunch. I'll post tomorrow on today's events.

I'm holding strong, and thank you all for your support. I can't possibly express how important it has been for me.

Had lunch with WW yesterday. Asked to see how her budget was looking for her moving out of the house at the end of the month for 6 month seperation.

I can now understand some of her desperation. After seeing her budget, after she paid all bills, she had $157 left over for the entire month for gas/groceries/necessities. That's not going to work.

I suggested another alternative. I explained my number 1 concern right now is the kids. I said the situation with her best friend and her ex husband might appear to be working with their kids, but I believe they will suffer some serious long term ramifications. I don't want to shuffle my kids back and forth every couple of days. All the doctors say, kids need a stable home life. My secondary concern was the lengths WW is willing to go to move out. She applied for refinancing on her car, but was denied. She talked about filing personal bankruptcy, which I said was a bad idea if we decided to stay together, it would be over both our heads. She even mentioned cashing in her 401k, not sure what good that would do after all the penalties were applied. Then I suggested we do an in house seperation. I'll move all my stuff to a downstairs bedroom. TV/VCR/Satty RCV'er, and I have a place to be when WW purposely gets online and chats with OM.

My first goal was to prevent her from moving out of the house. My second goal is to get her to agree with NC with OM. I know there's not much I can do to get this. It's a decision she's going to have to make. Our counselor already told her last Thursday, that if she intends to work on our relationship, OM has to go. She wasn't willing to make that decision last week. Personally, I'm going to work on that issue while in counseling with the counselor. I think this will be the hardest battle of all. We won't be able to start working on reconcilling until OM's gone, and counselor told her as much. I expect tomorrow night's counseling and future counselings to focus on having to give up OM to make this work.

I just don't know if she can do it, or wants to do it.

After dinner, ended up laying on bed with WW and talking. She allowed me to rub her back and legs. I guess I relaxed her so much she fell asleep. She woke up around 9:30pm and got online, and I went to bed. DD(3) woke me up when she crawled in bed around 12:30am. WW was still on the computer, but not chatting. Told her DD(3) was in bed, and asked her if she was coming to bed soon. She said in a bit, her little nap left her wide awake. She came to bed around 1:20 or so. Don't know what she was doing online before she came to bed, but she was feeling "in the mood". Pleasant surprise. I wonder how tonight will go. Going to try avoiding even calling her at work today, going to see if she notices and calls me.

Talk to you all tomorrow, and take care.

[ April 06, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, holding out on calling her yesterday paid off. She eventually called me. Made some small talk, and talked about dinner.

She left work late, like 20 minutes late. She says she was still working on her story. She's a journalist for the local newspaper. We made dinner together when she got home. After dinner she went to the barn to ride her horse. She didn't get home from the barn until about 9pm, and immediately got online. I went to bed.

Counseling today should be interesting. I think a major focus will be about OM again. I'm pretty sure the counselor and I both believe there won't be any forward progression with our marriage until WW gives up OM.

On a side note, I have the downstairs room just about empty. It's almost ready for human habitation. I'll write more later.

Counseling was very interesting. The session started off by asking how things were since last session. WW started off by saying she felt things were good. She told the counselor due to financial constraints we were going to try in house seperation. Counselor asked where she stood on the OM issue. WW says they decided to just be friends because he's working on his marriage and she's working on her marriage.

I started by saying she turned our date night into a stay at home and have pizza and a movie night with the kids. I added, that she fell asleep during the movie, and woke up when the movie ended. She then went to the barn, and when she got home, straight onto the computer. I also pointed out she was online for 3 other nights as well. I also said I was uncomfortable with OM still being in the picture.

After bringing all this up, discussion between WW and I began heating up. She indicated she was punishing me for the last 4 years. The counselor seperated us at this point, and talked to WW first. Not entirely sure what all they talked about, but WW said the counselor thinks she's Aggressive Passive, meaning, all the negative feelings she has are directed at me by her being mean to me. Saying hurtful things, behaviour, etc.

The counselor told me she would prefer us to have a physical seperation vs in house seperation because of the severity of the negative feelings we have toward the situation. I explained we just don't make enough money to support 2 seperate households. Counselor advised with an in house seperation, bounderies need to be established, and strictly adhered to. She also mentioned we are to stick to our Monday Lunch date, weeknight date, and Sunday family day. WW and I have been making dinner together, which gives us interaction and has us working together as a team.

The counselor further explained we need time to get over our negative feelings and start healing, and that's why we only have 3 days of interaction. As time progresses and WW and I get more into a healing phase, she'll increase the amount of time we spend together. The important thing, is I need to give WW as much space as I can. So, aside from dinner, I'll be spending much time in my room downstairs when we're home together, and I'm going to have to work on coping with her being online chatting with whoever.

After reflecting on all this, I came to the conclusion this will have 2 outcomes. The first being we develop good feelings for each other and live happily ever after. The second being I will be able to grow away from her, and won't have any problems divorcing her.

This is interesting, WW doesn't want me to tell her I love her anymore, because it makes her uncomfortable. But it's ok if we still hug and kiss. This is even more funny, sex is still an option, because she acknowledges she still has needs as do I.

Time to order my new satty receiver for my room.

Talk more later.

Last night was ok. WW came home to change clothes and then went to the barn to ride her horse. I made dinner for me and the girls. Got the kids ready for bed, and WW came home around 8pm. She laid down on the couch to watch CSI. I sat down to watch with her since I don't get tv in my room until Monday. She fell asleep by 8:40 and then her best friend called, talked to her for a few minutes, then handed the phone to WW. WW complained about the crappy connection and best friend was supposed to call back.

At this point I decided to just go to bed. She got online after I went downstairs, but she was in bed by 11:30pm. I know this because my room is under her room, and I could hear her walking around. I went upstairs to see if she was still awake, she was, but wasn't interested in talking or anything, so I went back to bed. I guess I'm going to have to quit doing that. I think aside from dinner, once the kids are settled, I just need to go to my room.

We're going to a 5:45 showing of The Secret Window tonight. Has Johnny Dep in it. She likes Johnny Dep. Supposedly going for drinks afterwards. Here's to hoping for a good night.

The counselor classified her as Passive Aggressive, and I think she's having a hard time wrapping herself around that.

RW,

I just wanted to respond to your many posts. This is my first post. It's been therapeutic for me to read here. Hang in there. My situation is different, but I see many similarities and feelings that I have that parallel your thread. I haven't posted my situation yet, but may do so seeing how much it has helped you. God Bless!

RecoveringH

Thanks for your support. I'll tell you, it's no walk in the park. I get mixed feelings from her all the time. I'm to the point now, where if she wants space, I'm going to give her all the space she wants. I'm not going to hug her, kiss her, tell her goodnight, or tell her goodbye when I leave for work in the morning.

It's like she thinks I'm supposed to know what she expects, but I have no indication what's acceptable anymore. I have no choice but to go from one extreme to the other. I hate to do that. Especially with the mixed signals I'm getting from her.

I wish you luck with your situation, and hope you have more patience than I. I have no idea how I'm going to get through the next 6 months.

Had our date last night. Started off by going to a restaurant, and having drinks and talking. Unfortunately we talked about us. One of the topics we're supposed to avoid. We've got 2 different perspectives. I'm making changes to my life that I feel make me a better father and husband with the prospects she finds the changes more attractive. Her perspective is to discover if she can be happy being married to me. She also further explained why she doesn't want me to stop hugging and kissing her. She sometimes needs it.

I'm thinking at this point based on my previous post, and the information revealed in this one, that I'll follow my current game plan. If we had a physical seperation, there would be no good bye kisses in the morning, and no good night kisses. Obviously, the only hugs would be when we saw each other. I'm not sure an in house seperation should be treated differently. I think, I should refrain from those things, unless it's during the agreed upon times we're supposed to be doing things.

Aside from that, I'm not sure I want to stop trying to fill as many EN's as she'll allow me to. I'm afraid by doing the above, I'll be cutting off my own EN's. This morning I actually debated with myself kissing her bye this morning. I decided to kiss her bye. I'm really leaning to cutting it all out completely, and just try moving on with my life. I refuse to put my life on hold for 6 months while she tries to decide if she can be happy staying married to me.

The counselor's strategy for working out our problems is very different from SH's. I'm very unqualified to determine if one is better than the other. Our counselor is pro marriage, so I guess I'm going to have to give her some trust, and hope for the best.

Back to the date. After the restaurant, we went and saw The Secret Window with Johnny Dep. Good movie. I made a point of not trying to hold her hand or put my hand on her leg. She grabbed my hand and I ended up holding her hand for awhile and ended up with my hand just resting on her thigh. All in all, not a bad night, not a great night, but not bad.

She's going to a wiccan homebrewing party tonight. Can't imagine she'll come looking for me when she gets home. As a matter of fact, I'd be surprised if she did. She was mad at me for coming up to her room night before last to see if she was interested in sex. I'm not even going to try anymore. Just going to give her all the space she thinks she wants/needs. It's going to be a long 6 months.

[ April 10, 2004, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, Saturday night just sucked. Saturday morning I called WW from work, and told her I was stopping by a friends house after work. WW said she needed to leave by 6:30pm and I said, ok, I'll be there. Then she said, don't worry about it cuz DD(12) can watch DD(3) for a little bit until I get there.

Well, I got home about 7pm, and she was PISSED. Appearantly, DD(3) has a cold, which has led to an ear infection, and WW decided not to leave DD(3) home with DD(12) because DD(12) doesn't have much patience to begin with.

WW came home around 11pm and I was in my room with the door open watching The Crow. Invited her in, and she seemed to be in pleasant spirits, not mad at all anymore. Women, I just don't understand them.

Was talking to my mom on the phone, and the cordless started beeping because the battery was low. I thought that was odd, and asked DD(12) about it. She said WW was on the phone with someone, but WW told her it was a friend. Called WW's best friend, and asked if she talked to WW today. She hadn't. I knew at this point, she was talking to OM from house phone again. WW's best friend got pissed off at me for using her to check up on WW. Anyway, I promised I wouldn't confront WW when she got home and asked her not to say anything to WW. Well, she agreed, and then turned around today and told her all about the phone call. WW seems to have handled it better than I thought, and I asked why she called OM from home phone, when I had asked her not to. She said, I asked her not to talk to OM on home phone while I was at home. I figured at this point was stupid to get into semantics, and I let it go. Told DD(12) last night I didn't want her to feed my any more info. Just makes it harder for me to deal with the situation as it is, without her building my anxiety for me. Guess it didn't help to much, she started feeding me more info today. Told her again to stop it.

Back to last night, went upstairs with WW to talk more. Decided it was time to go back to bed, and kissed her good night. Kiss turned passionate, and one thing led to another. Appearantly she was "in the mood".

She did however make a comment, that made me uncomfortable, but I let it go. She said, I might as well be a stranger off the street. Kinda hurt my feelings, but I understand her position in all this.

Easter morning, we did the Easter thing with the kids. It's supposed to be our family day, and she tells me WW and DD(12) are going to see Ella Enchanted. I got a little defensive at this point. The way I understood it, family day is the day where we all TOGETHER do something.

I ended up taking DD(3) to get McDonalds and we ate in the park. Brought her home and put her down for a nap, and cleaned the house up. Noticed WW's best friend's number on the caller ID of the phone. DD(12) started telling me all about how WW's best friend told her about my phone call last night. Guess I need to stop talking to WW's best friend. Had to remind DD(12) to quit feeding my info that makes it harder to cope with this situation. Made WW aware what DD(12) is doing, and WW made the comment that she felt she was sabotaging us.

Moved my computer down into my room. Funny thing is I'm chatting with WW online. It's kinda weird, I'm out of sight out of mind, but she's still willing to chat with me.

Well, need to get to bed, have a very busy day tomorrow. Taking WW out to lunch with the kids, then have to take DD(3) to the doctor for her cold and ear ache. Then, I have to be home by 3pm for my satty tv receiver installation. I'll post more tomorrow night.

rw

excuse me but it almost seems as if you are enjoying this drama. Otherwise why would you continue to allow her to talk to OM? Why havent you called him yourself or exposed this EA to his wife? I have seen others posting here who asked these questions and you didnt answer, you just continue typing about your lifes drama. Could this be your addiction? If so I dont see her ever changing ..you allow this to go on and on. You dont do antyhing to force her hand. What can you expect if you allow her to do what she wants? She is in the fog and thinks this man is the answer to all lifes problems..

Take it from me a FWW, the only way to get her to wake up is to get tough.. Expose this affair and call the OM yourself.. Whats stopping you?

good luck
c_p

RW,
I feel for you, and can only imagine the pain you're dealing with. One thing worries me from your last post... you said: "She did however make a comment, that made me uncomfortable, but I let it go. She said, I might as well be a stranger off the street. Kinda hurt my feelings, but I understand her position in all this."
Man, please don't fall into "understanding her position" as it is fabricated, surely only to be understood by her. Her position is her self-made trap.
Hang in there, and keep at it. No matter how the situation resolves (i.e., what choice she makes), you will surely come out better off than you have been for a while. I just hope she chooses to restore trust and resume/restart your life from where it went off track. Only you can see your whole situation and make your choices.
Hoping you feel the sun on your face soon...

Craving_peace:

First of all, I'm far from enjoying this drama. I've lost 30 pounds, and have to take my DD(12) to a psyhcologist. Secondly, I can't MAKE WW do anything. Thirdly, I have no way of contacting OM's wife, as he doesn't live at home with her at the moment. Supposedly, he is moving back in with his wife to work on their problems. But, I have no way of confirming that. The problem in my relationship with my WW, is that our problems started long before the EA came about. She's already told the counselor she has no intention of giving up OM, and that our problems have nothing to do with OM. I disagree, but I go back to the point, I can't make WW do anything. Any confrontation with OM will only make her mad and push her farther away. She says, they've decided to just be friends. Counselor says, I have 2 choices, try believing her and following her advice, or deciding I can't accept her terms and walk away. I love her dearly, unconditionally, and if there is any hope for us to stay together, I have to do this.

ConfusedScott:
Thanks for your support. You're right, at this point I don't understand her position. I still maintain, I don't see how we can be working on our marriage while OM is part of the picture. WW disagrees, and nothinng I say or the counselor says will change her opinion. All I can do is try to commit to our in house seperation as best I can, and to meet as many EN's she'll allow. I'll never be happy about OM, and that's one thing I'll never back down on.

Where it stands right now, is the next 6 months are purely for her to decide if she can stay married to me and be happy. She's looking for enough time to figure out the changes I've made in my life are permanent. I figure, going down this road will have 2 outcomes: 1) we'll decide we can be happy together, or 2) the time will allow a break between us easier for me.

Got my satelite receiver installed in my room today, so spending time in my room won't be too boring. Got my computer down here too. Computers are my passion in life, like WW's passion is horses. I can't let myself stay away from the computer based on how it makes me feel every time I think about what it's down to WW and myself. All I can do is control how much time is spent on it and how it is spent.

Tomorrow, after work, I'll be obtaining a family membership at a rec center that has a pool, exercise equipment, weight equipment, and lots of other goodies. I've decided I'm going to improve every aspect of my life, with or without WW. Of course, I'd prefer with, but ultimately that's her decision.

This last weekend has probably been the worst yet. Not really in the mood to rehash everything, but I think I posted alot already. I think tomorrow's counseling isn't going to be very nice. Oh well, not much I can do about it.

Here's to pressing on with my life. I told WW this morning, that unless we're on scheduled time to be together, that I'm going to avoid her whenever possible. No more calls at work, no more goodbyes in the morning, no nothing. Probably won't get a response to that, but we'll see.

YES there is something you can do about your situation.. stop resigning yourself to being walked on. I still think nothing would be more effective than to contact the OM and tell him to stop writing talking to or messaging your wife. I also think you could try to contact OM's wife. You dont know for sure he is not living at home..that could be their story so you wont call her.

If I were you I would stop looking for your wifes reaction to anything you do as it is obvious she has no remorse, and so far what you are doing isnt working.

I think what you are doing as far as bettering yourself is positive if you are doing it for yourself, but the only thing that will help with your wife is to stop allowing her to pull the wool over your eyes. Contact the OM. Tell him to stop! Seriously I dont know what is stopping you????

just my 2 cents
c_p

Craving_peace:

You keep insinuating I have some control over my WW. At this point she has not decided to stay married to me. We can't work on our marriage until she decides she wants to be a part of it. I can make demands till I'm blue in the face.

WW says her and OM agreed to just be friends. I can neither confirm nor deny this. She's on the fence, and I'm not pushing her one way or the other. I'm moving on with my life, with or without her. Ultimately, it's her decision.

I wonder if this could work for you.... www.stopyourdivorce.com

Thanks Orangecrush.

WW is a journalist, and loves to write. She's been working on an erotic short story. I showed interest in her work and asked to read it when she's done. Long story short, I live in the same house, and she emailed it to OM before I got to see it. I got upset and she said I was over reacting and childish. I realized my feelings don't even rank anywhere with her at the moment.

So, I've implemented a plan very similar to that. I'll have to wait and see what kind of results I get. We have counseling today, and then it'll be 2 weeks before the next one.

Last night, WW actually came to me for a hug. I've not pressured for any kind of affection, and will continue to hold my ground for my own sanity.

Will post more tomorrow concerning tonight and this afternoon's counseling session.

[ April 14, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RWukovich

I was here a year ago. I haven't posted much here but I'm going to tell you something a little different than the others.

I agree you are nothing but a doormat right now and that sickens me because I was there. This will continue so long as you allow it to happen. Your WW is getting everything her way.

You will not survive this if you allow it to continue. There comes a time when you have to face reality, as harsh as it may be.

Your marriage is over. Your WW is using you, sucking the life out of you. Is this the kind of person you want to spend your life with? What kind of person does that to someone and still looks at herself in the mirror?

The fact that she is doing this now after a PA several years ago doesn't surprise me at all. Cheaters are like addicts. Cheaters are cowards.
Your WW is a serial adulterer. No doubt that will anger some here, perhaps you, but it's my opinion.

My advice to you, is get a good lawyer, find out your rights and look into getting a good custody arrangement for you and your kids. Then, get into individual counseling and try to get your self-esteem back. You are a broken man, my brother - you need to be strong for your kids.

Bottom line: put yourself and your kids first. Your selfish WW is not only betraying you, she is betraying her own children. Never forget that. They need you. They need their father as a strong man.

Your WW made her choice, now she must live with it. Don't let her pull you deeper into the abyss.
You cannot save a marriage when the other person doesn't want to save it. She doesn't. You need to come to grips with that.

No one is worth the pain you are feeling.

NO ONE.

Regards,

ITB

[ April 14, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: into the black ]

Counseling yesterday went ok. We basically talked about the problems we had with this past weekend. We signed our in house seperation contract. I expressed I will always have a problem with OM, even if she says they are just being friends. I won't be addressing that issue unless she decides to actually work on the marriage. Her viewpoint is the next 6 months is to learn how to be friends again. We talked about working the bugs out of the in house seperation, and the fine tuning I did on Tuesday. Since Tuesday morning, I've been avoiding her like the plague at home. Mostly to shield me from the hurtful things she continues to do, and preserve what ever feelings I have left.

She did approach me Tuesday for a hug, be still my beating heart. That completely threw me off, especially since she hasn't initiated anything since DDay. She even called me honey, last night. That didn't phase me though, I think it was more habit.

ITB:
I hear what you're saying. I've reached the point where I'm no longer going to allow what she's doing to hurt me. If yesterday was any example, then I'll be fine. If she's willing to continue going to counseling and following along with our in house seperation agreement, then that's what I'm going to do for my kids. They still need their mother. With the way things are going though, I don't think she's really there for them right now. Which is fine by me, because if it comes down to divorce, it'll be much easier to get the kids. Right now, I'm spending TONS more time with them. I'm being strong for me, and for them. But, I've got to continue going through this for their sake. This is a big if, but IF she can get herself out of the fog, and decide to actually start working on our marriage, I would prefer it. I still love her even with everything that's happened. But it'll be a long time before our relationship is strong enough to stand the test of time. Thank you for your opinion, just wanted to let you know I'm definitly protecting myself now.

Well, yesterday was interesting. DD(12) had her psychology appt. After hearing everything, he recommended we put her on Zoloft. DD(12) not sure how drugs are going to help her deal with the situation, even after Dr explained how stress causes chemical imbalances. Personally, I think it'll help her, considering we'll be dealing with this for the next 6 months.

I'm still trying to meet as many emotional needs she'll let me, but I'm moving on with my life, doing my things, and spending time with my girls.

WW had a car accident yesterday. She was in the left lane of a 2 lane one way street. '87 Dodge Ram Van tried turning left from the right lane through my WW's car into a parking lot. WW is okay, thank goodness. Looked at the car, it's not too bad, but definitly needs some work. Passenger door is caved in a little and door won't open. Insurance agents are investigating.

After finding out WW was ok, as we were ending the phone call, I told her I love you. She started her response like she has for the last month, with I know, but then she followed it up with I love you too, thank you. Well, I'm not going to read too much into that, but it wasn't a reflex response.

Yesterday, advised WW that she's responsible for paying for dates too. So, she's agreed to pay for alternating dates. Tonight, she's paying! We're going to shoot pool. I'm hoping it's a good night.

RW,

Keep your head up. I enjoy reading your posts. Your consistent and you're trying. I try to draw strength from you. Today I feel down and think that I will start a thread of my own.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Recovering H:
 RW,

Keep your head up. I enjoy reading your posts. Your consistent and you're trying. I try to draw strength from you. Today I feel down and think that I will start a thread of my own. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks Recovering H, I appreciate the support. I never fully understood what it meant when I was told this was akin to a rollercoaster and there would be good days and bad days. Well, I definitly understand now. Having my own room to go to when she turns on her computer makes it easier to cope with, but it doesn't help knowing she's still talking to OM.

I've got such a long time to go through, and it's a struggle just to make it through each new day. This is by no means easy, especially since WW wants nothing to do with MB. So it's difficult to follow the strategies listed here. But I try to fit in what I can where I can.

I'm pretty much using this thread as my own journal, who knows it may help someone else. We've got a date tonight, so I'm hoping for the best. Keep your chin up, and hang in there. Some people here have been doing this for so long, I don't know how they've managed. I remind myself every day, if they can do it, I can do it.

Well, last night wasn't too bad. We went and shot pool for an hour. Came home, and she fell asleep on the couch. Next week, bowling.

Today she took the girls to a raptor(bird) demonstration. Appearantly they all had a good time.

I went to a friends house after work and stayed there until 8pm. Got home to find out WW somehow managed to buy a cell phone. No doubt to call OM. I'm sure she'll come up with a lot of other justifiable reasons, but oh well. She did bother to tell me there was dinner in the fridge if I wanted some. How nice.

Tomorrow is family day, DD(12) is going to a friends BDay party, and WW, DD(3), and I are going to go hiking or something.

Well, going to go get me some of that dinner. More later.

Sunday - Family Day, uh huh, yeah right.

DD(3) came down to my room around 6:30am, ugh, wanting to watch TV. I turned on the tv, and around 7am I went upstairs.
From the WW's door I said, "You awake?"
WW said, "Mmmm hmmm."
I said, "Can I come in?"
WW said, "Mmmm hmmm."
I said, "Can I lay down next to you?"
WW said, "Mmmm hmmm."

So, I spent the next hour just holding her. It's been so lonely having to keep up my end of the in house seperation downstairs, when the love of my life is upstairs. Surprisingly enough, when she woke up she mentioned how nice it was. I expected her to be mad I even asked to cuddle.

After we got up, was outside on the porch smoking, when WW came out with her new cell phone and instruction manual. Well, how nice to see her miss a call from OM. That kinda ruined my morning.

WW and DD(12) left around 10am to take care of the horse and go pick up a gift for the friend having the BDay party. Around 11:50am, I get a call from WW on her brand new fancy cell phone, the car just stopped running while she was driving down the road. Immediately, I start thinking the accident the other day, must have done something that wasn't visible to the naked eye, so I asked her the standard questions. Everything seemed to be working, but the engine wouldn't turn over. I picked up some gas, and yep, she'd run out of gas. The accident must have done something, because the gas gauge indicated she had about an eigth of a tank, and the low gas light never came on. I guess she does need me for something.

Well, yesterday was absolutely beautiful, when WW got home, she laid down on the couch, and took a nap. I refused to waste such a beautiful day waiting for her to have Family Day, so I took DD(3) and we cut the grass. WW woke up about 3:30pm and left to pick up DD(12) from the BDay party and to stop by the store for groceries. She brought the groceries home, and then went with DD(12) to the barn to ride her horse.

When they got home, DD(12) was upset, WW was on the phone with OM from the time she picked her up to the time they left the store, and never asked how the party went or if the BDay girl liked her present. Personally, I think there are some justifiable reasons to have the cell phone, but I think all it did was make it easier for WW and OM to talk to each other.

On WW's online journal that OM has access to, put up something requesting her friends ask her 3 questions that she would answer. One of the questions was, if you could be anywhere instaneously, where would it be and why.

Her response was New York because that's where the man she loves is. Whatever.

Ended up chatting with her on AIM last night from my room downstairs. Asked her why she allowed me to cuddle with her yesterday morning. Her response was she's starting to miss me being around. Guess I'm doing something right, however, I don't see how our marriage is going to go anywhere, because I'll accept nothing less than NC with OM. So, I guess it's time to step it up a notch and make myself more nonexistant. No more cuddle time. I'm not even sure if I want to attempt to show any affection when we're out on our dates.

I do know I'm not as upset about the whole phone thing as I thought I would be. I think with her pushing me away as much as she is, it's really pushing me away. I think making my self non existant to her is the only way to preserve any feelings for that may still remain. I just don't know. I can't see doing this for 6 months.

Sad part is, I have friends and family already trying to set me up with other women. I have explained I need to see this through to the end, regardless of what the outcome may be. If anything for closure for me either way.

Supposed to have lunch date with WW today. Waiting on her to call me to let me know when to pick her up.

Oh, WW made me very angry last night. She was watching a TV show on the Hallmark channel last night about a dressage show. DD(3) wanted WW to read her a book, after requesting a few times, WW snapped, yelled at DD(3) and threw the book across the room. I calmly picked up DD(3)'s books and took her to her room, and read her books to her until she fell asleep. Later, after WW's show was over, we were outside smoking on the porch, and she said she felt guilty for losing her temper with DD(3). I pretty much ignored that comment, and went inside and she offered me a hug before I went down to my room.

RWukovich,

Does this mean you're preparing the industrial strength cold shoulder? Good idea... then she can't use you this way. She obviously likes having it both ways, using you when she feels needy, but snubbing you (and now the kids) the rest of the time. Selfishas she is, maybe it will give her a slight shock towards reality. Stay strong, man.

why do you stay with her? gert out now! grow a pair! don't take this abuse from this woman! why are you still there? she hurts the kids, she hurts you! if you think this is in the best interest of the kids, you are mistaken!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ConfusedScott:
 RWukovich,

Does this mean you're preparing the industrial strength cold shoulder? Good idea... then she can't use you this way. She obviously likes having it both ways, using you when she feels needy, but snubbing you (and now the kids) the rest of the time. Selfishas she is, maybe it will give her a slight shock towards reality. Stay strong, man. <hr /></blockquote>That's my belief. I'm documenting all the time she spends with the kids, so if it comes down to divorce, I will have the documentation supporting why she shouldn't have custody. It's so hard having to deal with this day in/day out. She's getting to the point now, where it seems like things are good between us, but she's still stuck in the fog. Nothing I can do until she gets off the freakin fence. So, I press on with my life, for me and my kids.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by woshoa:
 why do you stay with her? gert out now! grow a pair! don't take this abuse from this woman! why are you still there? she hurts the kids, she hurts you! if you think this is in the best interest of the kids, you are mistaken! <hr /></blockquote>Why? I thought that was obvious. Because I love her. And thank you, I have a pair. I'm going through this to do what I can to ensure I get custody of the kids. Yes, it's hard on the kids. It's hard on all of us. When it's hard on the kids, I do my best to be strong for them, and give them what she doesn't.

Well, we had our lunch date yesterday. It went surprisingly well. Of course, she sprung something on me I was expecting. She's trying to find a new job, and I don't mean in the local area. Currently, she's got her sights set on Pitsburgh. MUCH CLOSER to OM. She even went so far as to talk about I could find a job there. I think I made it pretty clear, I wasn't going to Pitsburgh if there's no us, and then I said, guess we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

She called before she left work and talked about stopping and picking up seeds to work in a flower bed next to the back porch. I indicated I thought it was an awesome idea. Of course, I didn't express that it kinda made up for the lack of a family day. So, we worked on the flower bed until the sun went down, which was close to 8pm.

Then she had to go clean her horse stall. She didn't get home until almost 10. The barn is only 10 minutes up the road. I mentioned it must have been the worst stall ever. She said it was so beautiful outside she decided to sit on her horse bareback and let her graze. Personally, I think she was talking to OM on her new fancy dancy cell phone.

It's Tuesday, and she indicated she's going riding tonight or working on the front flower bed. But, she's off Wednesday, because she has to work Saturday, so we may work on the flower bed then, or she could have it done before I ever get home. Whatever.

Things seem ok between us, but I still feel the pain of what she's doing everyday, and try my best to push it aside. I'm never going to get over her as long as it continues to hurt when I see it. Next counseling session is next week, and will have been 2 weeks since the last session. Seems like an eternity. I think I'm going to see if we can change our in house seperation date to begin from the 13th of this month, because I moved downstairs on the 14th. The significance of this is, our 6 months would then end on our anniversary. Either a new beginning, or a fitting end.

Well, not long after I posted yesterday, WW added an entry to her online journal. She talked about how she and the girls worked on the flower bed. Nowhere did she mention anything about me. The only time she mentions anything about me there is when it's something negative.

After doing that, the surprising part was last night. She got home around 6pm and was on her way to the barn by 7pm. She didn't get home until after 9:30pm. DD(3) was bathed, and trying to fall asleep on my bed when WW walked in. She dropped her stuff at the end of MY bed, and laid down next to DD(3). After DD(3) fell asleep, I picked her up to go put her in her own bed. WW had dozed off and woke up when I was picking up DD(3). I thought the moment I picked up DD(3) that she would be following me upstairs to her domain very shortly. Got DD(3) in bed, and I thought to myself, that's odd, WW didn't come upstairs.

She was still laying on MY bed in MY room. I stood there for a moment, pondering what to do since her eyes were closed. DD(3) had been using my toss off blankets instead of being under all the covers, so I pushed them over some and sat down on the edge of my bed. WW opened her eyes, and I suggested she go take her contacts out. She said in a minute. Ok, at this point it became obvious she was in no hurry to leave. I laid down facing her, and since it's only a twin bed, the toss off blankets were between us. I rearranged them more comfortably, and she asked if I was trying to make sure I didn't touch her. I was like, uh, I can touch you if you want me to. She said it was ok. So, I threw the toss off blankets on my chair and scooted closer to her. I gingerly put my arm up on her side. I thought about how nice it used to be to just hold her, and I said I miss you. She said You do? like she was surprised or something. A moment later, she rolled over with her back to me and pulled my arm tightly around her. After a little while I said I had to get up to go turn off the outside lights, and she should probably go take out her contacts. Rest of the night pretty uneventful.

This morning however, before I left, I asked her if she got that job in Philadelphia (not Pittsburgh like she'd originally told me) wouldn't that effectively end what we're doing? And she said I'd move with her. I replied what? on a wing and a prayer? She said, she probably wouldn't get it anyway.

Well, she called me after I got to work and asked me why I asked her that this morning. And I told her I had mixed feelings about it. I could tell her some, but the others I felt should only be discussed in the counselor's office. Well, she pressed, and I told her. If she got the job, I'd be happy for her, because it would be a step up from the dead end go nowhere job she's in now. I then mentioned how close it is to OM. And she said, it's not like she planned it, it just happened to be where the job opportunity is. I said I understood that, but it didn't change the proximity any. Then she asked, well, if I didn't go, what would we do, seperate the girls? And I said no. She said, I would take both of them? And I said no. She said, so you would keep both of them? And I said yes. She's upset at this point. So I point out the small amount of time she actually spends with the kids and she got really upset with me and said she was done with the conversation and hung up on me.

Sounds like you are doing very well. Just keep it up. By the way, can she take the horse to Philadelphia?

I honestly don't know. I can't imagine how hard it would be on her not to take the horse.

Appearantly, she took our phone conversation as me saying she's a crappy mom. But she used a different word than crappy if you know what I mean, I took them from her online journal. She's doing an excellent job of painting me as a horrible person to all the people that have access to her journal. What bothers me, is it's like 2 different worlds were living in. The way she describes things, is totally 100% at the other end of the spectrum about how things occur from my perspective. Like this morning, I never even got a chance to finish telling her my perspective before she jumped to her own conclusions and ended the conversation by hanging up on me.

Going to get off work early today to try and talk to her before the kids get home. I'm hoping I can get her to sit down with me and actually LISTEN to what I'm saying vs jumping to conclusions.

Personally, I feel she actually expects me to follow her to whatever city she gets a job in whether we're together or not. I still can't understand that.

[ April 21, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

She is still very foggy. Stick to your guns, and keep talking calmly to her. The rewriting the marriage thing is just so she won't feel so guilty. Just keep continuing to be good to her, and she will soon give it up.

Yeah, I know she's in the fog, and there's nothing I can do to bring her out of it. She's going to have to make the effort, then I can support her.

I'm not looking forward to going home early to try and talk to her. I just know, she's not going to LISTEN to what I'm saying. But, I have to try. Patience is the hardest thing to come by, and she has none. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks for your support believer.

I came home from work early, just to catch her on the phone with OM. At least she didn't deny it. I know because I checked redial and it was the number she always calls after she's called him. I told her I didn't understand why she did that, and that if I wanted to talk to him, I would have already. I explained I have his work number, work email, and personal email. Guess she didn't know how to handle that.

Talked to her about what happened this morning. Turns out, I hit a nerve. She really expected me to follow her around the country even if there was no US just so we could both be with the girls. She said she wasn't going to send out any resumes (yeah, right) and that I was holding all the cards. I explained it was a hand I didn't want. I don't want her to stay just for the kids and not be happy.

Told her that I didn't think she's a crappy mom, that I think she could rework her day in a manner that gave more time to the kids. She said, she likes to be able to ride in the daylight. I said, fine, go to the barn when you get off work, I'll worry about dinner, and when you get home you'll still be able to have quality time with the girls before they go to bed. I'm sure she thought about how that would cut into her online time.

Problem is, she doesn't think she'll get any of the jobs she's trying for. I told her, I thought just the opposite. I think she's an excellent writer, and that she would get the job. I explained I didn't think I could handle moving to Philadelphia with her and the kids and there not be an US. I said, if she was to hook up with OM that I didn't think I'd be able to handle that. And to ask me to do that would be unfair.

Well, the rest of the afternoon seemed to go well after she got over her attitude. We worked on flower beds more and grilled brats. Personally, aside from this morning it ended a pretty good day. I just don't know what she's holding inside that she's not sharing. At this point, it's always that way. I'm just going to have to check her online journal just to see what's on her mind. Not like she's telling me.

I do have a complaint though. She's been making sexual innuendo's. I told her it wasn't nice to tease. She's still not stopping. Guess I'm just going to have to stop acknowleding when she makes the innuendo's. In case you're wondering what I'm talking about, we had bratwurst's for dinner. I'm sure you can figure out what I'm talking about.

As far as last night is concerned, I asked her about that as well. I asked if she did that because she wanted MY closeness, or was I just filling a roll. Didn't really get a straight answer from that.

From the looks of it, she knows I'm not playing any games where my kids are concerned. She knows, if we divorce I'll fight her for custody, and she knows I have great odds for winning. I guess she realized today, that not everything is going her way. I do have some control over my life.

I even went so far as to point out that I have a hard time believing her and OM are just friends, considering she has contact with him every day one way or another. Be it phone calls, instant messages, or messages left on a website for each other. I even told her I was aware she makes me look like a jerk to her online friends on her journal. Then I asked her if she ever mentioned the good things, like yesterday when we were all working on the flowerbed. I know she didn't mention me at all, she said She and the girls worked on the flowerbed. She said that she used the word we to imply all of us. I know that was a lie. I even asked her to show me the journal. She said I've already invaded her privacy once, and she won't let me again. Wouldn't she be surprised I already know?

At this point, I have no idea where this is going, but I do know this. It's not bothering me as much any more. I even went so far as to tell her today, if she wanted to go that bad to go, I wouldn't stop her. But I told her to remember one thing. I love her unconditionally.

I think the next week will be interesting, since our next counseling session is next Wednesday. We're still supposed to have our date night over the next couple of nights. Supposedly we're going bowling. We'll see. We both have to work Saturday, won't that be interesting. I'm sure she'll be using her free weekend minutes on her cell phone to talk to OM. Sunday family day, supposed to be a nice day, think we're going to the zoo.

I'm down in my room, and last I saw her, she was laying on the couch with DD(3). I think they're both asleep. I'll be darned if I'm going to wake her up so she can get online and chat with OM. And I know that's what will happen if I put DD(3) in bed.

Think I'm going to watch a little tv, then I'll go to bed, hopefully I'll be asleep before she wakes up.

Sounds like you are developing some boundaries. It is good that you can talk so calmly about everything. I think that is the best path to take at this point.

Be sure to take good care of YOU. This is going to be a long process and you don't want to get worn out. Hopefully she will come around soon.

While I was getting ready to leave for work this morning, noticed WW's cell phone flashing. Assumed this meant she has voice mail, and I told her about it. She asked how I knew, and I said I was walking by where she keeps her purse and the flashing caught my eye. Which is true. And I was just letting her know.

After I got to work this morning, I checked her online journal, and saw her best friend told her this is exactly what her exhusband did, and she recommeneded she get a lawyer now.

She called me because DD(3) was being cranky this morning and asked me to talk to her. After talking to DD(3), got to ask WW where we stood after yesterday, and she said she wasn't sure. I asked if we we're ok, and she said she supposed.

I mentioned her talking on the phone to her best friend last night, and if she told her what happened. They both feel what I said yesterday sounded like I was trying to call her a crappy mom, when all I was trying to say, was I was trying to suggest a way for her to spend more time with the girls.

I asked WW if her best friend had any recommendations, and she was honest and said she suggested WW get a lawyer. I asked her if she was going to do that, and she said she couldn't afford one at the moment, and wasn't sure if she was going to do that. I guess time will tell.

Here's to keeping my chin up. I have no choice but to continue moving forward. Should talk to WW again at some point today, and I'll bring up our date night again, as she still hasn't said what night is good for her.

I'm not feeling too good about this ending well.

I'm feeling very good about this ending well. Try to do something fun with wife once in awhile. Show her the H she fell in love with. Sometimes too much relationship talk gets boring to WS.

Believer, our MC wanted us to have a physical seperation to give us time to heal from the hurt. In conjunction with that, we have a monday lunch date, night date during the week, and sunday family day.

We've been holding to this schedule for the most part. I've been showing an interest in everything she'll share with me.

Last week's night date, we shot pool, only for an hour, but it was fun while it lasted. Sunday family day wasn't much, but we worked out in the yard Monday and yesterday. We're supposed to go bowling at some point, and that was her idea. Sunday family day we'll probably go to the zoo.

So, we're doing fun things together, and I'm doing much better about not talking about our relationship. Last couple of days kinda required it though, with her talking about submitting resumes and such. Thanks for your support, trying to keep my chin up, gets difficult at times.

I really don't see her leaving her horse, kids and you. I think putting in resumes is more of a threat. Hang in there, you can do this.

WW brought home more job listings for the Northeast. Actually, at this point I'm pretty sure she's going to submit them, and still expects me to relocate with her. I've said, I'm not relocating unless there is an us. I believe we'll get all moved where ever, and then she'll drop the bombshell that there is no us. I can't wait for counseling next week.

I went to bed around 10:30pm, when WW's upstairs typing on her computer, the clacking of the keys sends me spiraling into anxiety attacks. To prevent this, I turn on the sleep function of my alarm clock. That way, all I hear is music.

Well, when the sleep function shut off at 11:30pm I woke up, and decided to go have a smoke. WW's computer is right by the railing upstairs. So, I'm coming up the stairs, and she says, "What are you doing up?" I told her I woke up and decided to have a smoke. Jeez.

Had my smoke, and I was headed back to bed, and for some unknown reason, I asked what WW and OM were talking about. I obviously was not told. Don't even know why I asked.

Got back in bed, and I forget why at this point, but got back out and went to say something to WW, she made it appearant she was irritated I was back up again.

Well, third times the charm. I got back in bed, and as I lay there, I started feeling an overwhelming need for affection, I'm so lonely, hurt, and afraid. So I built up the courage to go back upstairs and ask her to hold me for a minute. Big mistake. She thought I meant for her to come downstairs to my room and lay with me on my bed. Her initial reaction was "why?". Tried explaining I just wanted to be close to her. When it became obvious that wasn't going to happen I started heading back downstairs when she mentioned she used to need affection and when she didn't get it from me she looked elsewhere. I said, and that's the difference, I don't want it from someone else. I asked her why she was so upset, and she said something about me coming upstairs and WHINING about needing affection. I came upstairs baring my heart and feelings and she might as well have kicked me in the face.

I'm done trying to show her any affection. We're not doing date night this week, I don't mind really as we've spent a lot of time together this week, probably more than we should have. I'm going back to not showing her anything.

I did however, tell her I was leaving for work this morning. She said, bye and have a nice day.

Whatever.

Well, not long after my last post. WW called me at work. She wanted to apologize for last night. I said I don't understand, I thought she made her feelings perfectly clear last night.

She further explained she was chatting with her mom online. If you're familiar with my situation then you know WW's mom is on my side. Appearantly, she was nagging WW again about being selfish, etc. So, the timing of last night was just bad.

I told her that, I didn't understand why she was doing this, when I know how she feels about me. She said she owes it to me for the years we've been together and for the kids. Personally, that would be nice, but it's never going to work while OM is part of the picture, and she doesn't believe that to be true.

From my perspective, our relationship is at a standstill, and with every altercation, no matter how small, it just keeps slipping further and further away.

More baffling.

Received a response from WW to an email I sent yesterday. Was basically about date night, which we had discussed when I got home yesterday (went out with the guys after work for a beer). WW asked if we could skip date night since we've done date night for the last 4 weeks. I thought about what the counselor said about us need to strictly adhere to the date schedule and how much time we spent together this week and decided we had spent plenty of time together already, so I told her no problem, if that's what she wanted to do.

To my astonishment, in her email she offered an alternative to going bowling. She asked if we could go get coffee somewhere like Borders and just sit and talk. She also signed the email with "Love,". She hasn't done that since DDay.

Imagine my surprise when I recieved yet another phone call from WW. Just to tell me she sent me an email. She got my response while talking. I have to stop and pick up some videos for the kiddos and we're going to go have coffee at Border's and sit and talk.

With everything that's gone on in the last month and a half, this is just out of character, and I can't help but think she's up to something. Going to plan A my butt off, but cautiously.

I'm just stunned by today's events.

Well, sticking to my guns. WW got home from work, and I basically did my best to ignore her. I went out for a smoke when she got home, and she came out to join me. She went in first, and called me to see the 2 cats lying side by side on the dryer. The kids came in, and went on through the laundry room leaving WW and I alone. WW held her arms out for a hug. Thought about it for a minute, and decided to Plan A it. Gave her a nice hug.

But I refuse to initiate any affection from now on. Didn't even try to touch her or hold her hand tonight. When we got home, I wasn't even going to say good night. But she asked if I was going to bed, I said no, but I was going to my room. She said good night, and I said I'll be back up for a smoke before I go to bed.

WW had mentioned before that I should pick up a Kama Sutra book. So, while we were at Border's I picked one up. The table area was full, so we went to a St. Louis Bread Company. Sitting there, drinking our coffees, and looking at my Kama Sutra book. Hmmm, that was her idea.

Wish I knew what she's up to. Surprisingly enough, aside from her teasing me a lot lately, seems sex is a very frequent topic of conversation even though she's not interested in me.

As a matter of fact, due to the current circumstances, and some of the things she's said to me, I don't have a lot of self esteem at the moment.

Something I forgot to mention last night, but WW was looking for a philosophy book while we were at Border's. Something to help her understand where she is in life, and where she wants to be.

Also, after we got home, she spent several hours going through all of her newspaper clips picking out some to send with her resumes. Appearantly there is one in particular that she's hoping to get. I can imagine it's the one in Philadelphia. Think I'll try to get that out of her at somepoint today.

WW called me at work, and I asked her out of all the job listings, if she had a favorite. And she said no, she'd be happy with whatever she got as long as it was out of this area.

Guess she's still lying and being deceptive. Why am I not surprised.

I'm really getting tired of this roller coaster. Chatted with WW last night. Was a very good conversation.

WW said, she loves me, but not romantically like a wife should. We both agreed, that's something that grows in the right environment, and we both agree we haven't reached that right environment. We're both very tense around each other, expecting the worst. We know, we can't have positive progression until we're comfortable around each other.

I brought up last Monday, when we were holding each other on my bed, and I mentioned before I asked if it was for me or for her. She didn't like the question. I finally realized, she doesn't want to admit right out front that she's been having periods of needing me. Last Monday, was just as much for me as it was for her.

WW went so far as to mention there were a few nights where she almost came down to my room to invite me upstairs. I told her, I've been patiently waiting every night for that very thing to happen. She said, not yet.

DD(3) has been having problems sleeping. I think I finally figured out what her problem is. For the last 3 years, she's always woken up in the middle of the night and climbed into bed with mommy and daddy. There's some special security being between both your parents. And I think, my moving downstairs created some distress.

After our chat last night, we went out for a smoke before bed. She gave me a hug and a kiss, and I went downstairs for the last time. As I was getting ready for bed, DD(3) woke up crying, and didn't want Mommy, she wanted her Daddy. I offered to lay down in WW's room with her and DD(3) until she went to sleep, just for a little while. WW said ok.

When I realized I was starting to fall asleep, I said I better get back downstairs before I fell asleep. Just as I was about to walk out of the room, she called my name. I stopped and said,"Yes?" WW said, I could stay upstairs if I wanted. I was stunned. From our chat, it was the last thing I expected. I know when she's offering affection, I have to accept and return what I can, otherwise she may stop all together.

From our chat, I told WW I understood why she hadn't invited me back upstairs. She's afraid I would think everything is ok, and things would revert back to the way they were. I explained, there's no way that could happen, this was a life changing experience like that bad scar that always itches. I'll never forget, and because of that it'll always be a reminder of how not to be. With or without her.

We also talked about her looking for a new job. She just wants out of here, and any one of the places would be better. She admitted there is one she'd really like to get, and it's not the one in Philly, it's south of Boston. The job description is what WW is interested in writing about.

Obviously, this leads into my concern about the proximity to OM. She said, she can't allow someone she's never met, regardless of how she feels about him, to affect her career choices. I brought up I know how she feels about him, and that if they really did agree to be friends, that it must be hard to not let her feelings interfere. She said it is. I told her again, I'd never accept anything other than NC with OM forever. She said she knows.

This last week, I've seen more effort from her since this all started. Now, I've got 2 ways of looking at this. 1) She's trying to lull me into a false sense of security to eventually screw me over, or 2)She really is trying, and this is extremely hard on her.

I admitted my friends/family have advised me on many occasions to run away as fast as I can. Based on what I've posted here, everyone has their own opinions about the situation. I've had people here positively reinforce my efforts, and there have been people that have advised I need to accept it's over. WW said she was getting the same thing, but she said she feels she needs to do this for us and the kids. You just don't throw 7 years away. I let her know I told my family/friends, if this works out, it's never to be brought up again...EVER. She agreed.

I realize, everything here, may be skewed by my own perception. I try to keep the events as accurate as possible, and then explain my thoughts and feelings about those events.

It's my understanding Plan A truely starts after WS commits to NC with OP. My WW has yet to accept that yet, and I'm left with going through Plan A anyway.

Counseling is next Wednesday, and I'm going to bring up the WW looking for a new job, mostly in the North East, and the proximity to OM. I'll also tell her, I've admitted to being willing to relocate anywhere with her, as long as there is an US, but I'm not sure I can handle being that close to OM. I think the proximity will be too much to resist.

I really feel bad for WW at times. She went through a lot of effort to get her degree, and it's being wasted on this backwater paper. As much as I want her to feel fulfilled by her efforts, I don't want her to get any of the jobs in the North East.

So, I continue with the in house seperation, and try to avoid WW as much as possible. I continue to meet as many emotional needs she will let me, when she indicates she needs. The hardest thing is waiting for her to come to me, especially with the loneliness, pain, anxiety, and fear welling up inside of me.

We're still working on communicating with each other. We're aware we need to pay more attention to each other when we're talking. We need to watch for body posture, facial expressions, and tone of voice. With both of us expecting the worst at any moment, it's difficult to stay focused on what we're actually saying. At least we're both aware of the nature of our difficulties.

Oh, Wednesday, when WW interpreted me saying I thought she was a crappy mom, she indicated if I had just come out and said something about her reprioritizing her day, then she wouldn't have thought I was saying she was a crappy mom.

This is positive isn't it? We're moving in the right direction aren't we? Or, is this just another peak on the roller coaster?

Your doing good RW, I did the same thing, even let the wife kick me out 3 times to stay with all things her.... mother lol.
You WILL win out buddy just keep your chin up and keep on............ 7 years is a long time and that history just doesnt come you earn it, she doesnt want to lose your mariage anymore thna you do....... Ill keep reading your posts and jump in when you need it, my WW acted the same way..... until she just came back to me after realizing the mistake she made and i was honest with her the mistakes that I had made and was ready to make a REAL change in everything, like i said it was almost 8 months of hell but worth every day of it now.........

my prayers are with you buddy..
cliff

RWukovich:

One of the things I've read in Torn Assunder recently, is that the author recommends that the WS try to get more same sex friends/or confide in same sex friends. I don't know about your WW, but mine has always had trouble making friends with other women. There is something catty that always comes out, but she's never had a problem making friends with guys (other than several have wanted to get in her pants). Has she made any new friends recently or tried?

Well, she does have same sex friends, not any new that I'm aware of. Her best friend of 20 years is same sex, and recently got divorced herself and is WW's main person to talk to. I think WW is getting a lot of bad advice from her. Nothing I can do about it either.

Was looking over WW's resume, and she opened chat window from OM. In it, he referred to her as "my love". I asked WW if she used endearing terms as well. And she said she did. I said, don't you think that's a bit endearing for just trying to be friends? And she said, they are friends, but the feelings are more than just a friendship. Then she said I was reading more into it. Whatever.

Well, since my last post. We had our lunch date on Monday, DD(3) came with us as she had a follow up doctor's appointment. While there, I asked him about something for the anxiety/panic attacks that sneak up on me. He prescibed Xanax(sp?) but I got a generic from the drugstore. I'm only supposed to use it when I need it. Appearantly, they are addictive.

So, the fact remains. My WW's definition of they're just friends, includes endearing phrases and what not. Nothing I can do, but point it out in counseling. Along with, her expectations that I'll relocate with her if she gets a job. I'm sure the counselor will have something to say about that.

Last night was ok, I guess. Not much in the way of physical affection, but we chatted for a bit, and it seemed ok. Today she has to work late, and is going in early. Tonight, another night for me with the kids.

At one point I told WW I'd relocate with her anywhere, if there was an US. This past Sunday, it became clear to me they are not just friends as WW says. They are in contact several times a day.

After careful consideration, I've decided I'm not sure I can relocate with her. The only way I'd consider it, is if she commited herself 100% to the marriage. This would require no less than NC for ever. I've told her I'd accept no less. Even if she did commit 100%, I don't think she'd hold to it. If she gets any of the jobs she's sending resumes to in his area, I believe she wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to meet him.

She wants me to relocate with her so if we don't stay together we'll both be in the same area for the kids. I just don't think I should give up my job, my career, for her in that situation.

I intend to make it clear to the counselor tonight what she's doing and how she wants it to happen. I'll do this without giving up my intentions, don't want to tip my hand just yet. Besides, I think the counselor, once she hears this, will say everything I won't say.

WW dreads counseling days, she feels it's WW bashing time. I decided, today, I'd go with the flow. I'll mention there have been some good days and bad days. When asked about the bad days, I'll bring up that what the WW considers to be just a friendship, isn't a friendship to me. And I'll explain how I came to know this information,which should lead into the whole relocation dillema.

Haven't needed to take any of my anxiety/panic pills yet, but as today rolls on, it's building, and I still have 8 hours to go.

I will Plan A up to the point she gets the job. If/when she goes for an interview, I'm sure she'll take that time to try and meet him. I'll try and be patient as long as I can. But, I don't know if I can handle that.

I'm really hoping with the information that should be revealed today, that she sees some light. I fully expect the counselor to tell WW her expectations about me relocating are ludicrous. Ok, she may not call them ludicrous, but she should definitly say they aren't fair.

Here's to this afternoon, wish I could have a beer first.

I think I would tell WW that it would not be fair to the kids to uproot them during this stressful time in your marriage. Also I would let her know that you cannot follow her under the circumstances.

Then let her go and remind her to send child support.

Believer, I'm kinda hoping the counselor will mention those things, but if she doesn't I'll be sure to bring it up. I just want to mention the facts, and allow the counselor to explain the ramifications to WW. Or, if she asks me how I feel about it, then I'll bring it up.

And if she does decide to take the divorce route, the state I'm in allows you to sue the person who caused alienation of affection. So, I'll sue OM, because up until this happened, I thought everything was ok.

RW,

please get yourself a lawyer. If she moves and takes the kids, you will be forced to move or risk being "uncle dad" to your children. You need to know what you are up against. The legal system is not father-friendly as a rule.

I know you are trying to save your marriage and by all means, continue to do so. The people on this site are wonderful.

But you also have to protect yourself and your children. I just can't stand to see someone be destroyed and lose their children in the process.

Yes, you may sue for alienation, etc., but a contested divorce is very expensive, nasty, can take years, and in the end the lawyers end up the big winners.

Take care of yourself.

ITB:

Thanks for the advice. It's a little more complicated than that. We have 2 kids, the oldest DD(12) is from a previous marriage. WW will NEVER get her. As far as DD(3) is concerned, WW nor I want to seperate them.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Counseling, hmmm, well, WW said yesterday if she actually got a job offer, then we'd sit down and talk and she'd make a decision about us then.

At which point I brought up the boundary I decided on. Surprisingly enough, WW expressed this was news to her. I said if there was an us, there could be NC with OM FOREVER. Seems to me, I've been telling WW all along, if there's an us, then there is no OM.

I also expressed the lack of trust and living anywhere near OM. I brought up the fact that 2 years ago when she had her affair, she did it under my nose on her 2 hour lunch breaks, and it'll take a long time to rebuild that trust again.

So yesterday was pretty much me getting out my reservations about the whole looking for a job thing, and how it affects our 6 month time table for WW to decide if she even wants to stay in the marriage.

Of course, this sounds really messed up to me, since WW says that by doing what we're doing she is working on our marriage. Granted, this last week I have seen an effort on her part.

After WW got home last night, there was one time she actually called me honey, but the rest of the night WW seemed distant.

Now, I'm living from day to day, Plan A'ing as much as I can, and giving her space. I hate my life being in a state of limbo, while she continues to talk to OM as much as she wants.

Still haven't had date night this week, looks like it'll be Friday. Saturday night WW has a Wiccan Full Moon Ritual thing for Beltane.

Seeing how my thread has basically become my journal through this horrible time in my life, I'll post more later.

Talked with WW some. Turns out she lost interest in sending out Resumes. Appearantly she was surprised I mapped out the mileage from the place she was sending resumes to to OM's location. She said she hadn't done that.

She also said I did a 180 on my position of relocating. Not sure what she means by that, I've been telling her all along I'd relocate if there was an us.

She also indicated that our session yesterday made her feel guilty, not sure what about. Looking for another job maybe. I guess the locations she picked makes it look like she's trying to get closer to OM. She says it isn't, but I find that real hard to swallow. FOG talk I think.

Sounds like things are going fairly well with you. WW is going to have to make a decision, so stick to your boundaries. It is miserable going through this, but in the long run you will be glad you did it.

Believer: At times it seems likes it's going fairly well, but other times it feels like we take a step forward and 2 steps back. After making my decision to go through this, I realized 1 of 2 things will happen. First, we'll have a relationship much better than it ever was, or Second, if it comes to the big D, I'll be able to move on with my life and be an incredibly better person for it. Thank you for all your support, and I really hope your efforts are rewarded as well.

Well, managed to get everything cleared up last night. Turns out, she felt I wanted to choose what jobs she applied for. She didn't fully understand appearantly my perspective.

I had to spell it out for her. I'm afraid to relocate somewhere near OM just to have her dump me later, or her have another PA.

I think it finally sank in, she actually said if we relocated some where it's because there would be an "US". If/When she gets a job offer, she'll get off the fence and make her decision.

I had to further explain, with everything that's happened, there just isn't any trust or security in our relationship, and moving there would eat at me.

Now, here's the part that baffles me, and blows my mind. After all the emails, and talking we did yesterday, and she finally got what I was saying, she wanted to have sex. Not that I'm complaining, because I still love her with all my heart. But, every time she feels the need to tell me "it's just sex, cuz she's horny". Afterwards, I told her you don't need to keep telling me that. She said, yes she does, because she doesn't want me to think everything is suddenly ok. Her fear is things will fall back into the old routine before this all happened. I told her, you know, I'll know when it's not just sex to her anymore. The "I love you" during or after would tell me that.

We've had more sex during this all started, than we did before. Well, it is one of her top 5 EN's. And with the date schedule the counselor has us on, and the chatting we're doing from 2 different rooms.

I'm meeting all of her top 5 EN's. Recreational Companionship-Conversation(she counted as one), Honesty and Openness, Affection, Family Commitment, and Sexual Fulfillment. I guess a good point, is those are all my top 5(6) EN's as well.

Tonight is Date Night, we're going to a new coffee shop that she thinks has poetry slams. Not sure if they'll be doing that tonight, but we'll see. I know she likes, poetry, and art. I see this as an opportunity to share something she's passionate about with her. Something we've never done.

I always thought of the roller coaster effect as being from one day to the next. Guess this is the first time the day started off bad and ended good. I feel bad complaining sometimes, especially from reading about other people in these forums that have been doing this for months/years. I bow to you all.

hey RW no need to bow or anything, it is always hardest at the beginning not at the end.................

What is wrong with just sex? As long as you and she have been tested for STD's, I don't see the problem.

Cliff: You're right, guess I'm just patiently waiting for it to get easier.

Believer: There is nothing wrong with just sex. Just don't think she needs to tell me every time we're about to that it's just sex to her and not making love.

Date Night was last night, WW called me from work to change our plans to going to see a movie. I was like, ok, whatever. Well, on the way home, she calls me again to ask if we can reschedule Date Night. Appearantly, a story was taken away from her and a coworker because the editor wasn't happy they didn't have it ready to go out this weekend. Well, jeez, I obviously don't want to look like the bad guy, so I say, yeah, sure, that's ok. She says are you sure you're not mad? I'm like I'm not mad, I'm disappointed.

To top it all off, she kissed DD(3) goodbye (we were laying on the couch together, it was bedtime) and then she gives me a kiss. I felt like it was a show for her coworker that was there. Before she left, she says, I have my cell phone with me if I need anything. Ok, since she got the darn thing, they are inseperable, of course it's with her. Not to mention, if I even thought of calling her, then I'm checking up on her or keeping tabs. WW didn't come home until 2:30 in the morning, woke me up when she came in the garage door. I wonder if she's going to call when she wakes up.

Sigh, here's a weekend off to a rocky start. I hate working Saturdays.

[ May 01, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

WW is planning to attend a horse event in Kentucky at the end of May. I saw a post OM made on the art website they post to that indicates he's saving up for a trip he's making this month. I suspect they plan on meeting at this horse event.

Any suggestions?

[ June 12, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Make plans to go with her, take the girls too make it a family thing and dont back down from it.....see how she reacts.......
I sometimes wonder if i had done the same thing when i just "felt" something was wrong the day they spent together , would they have? I dont know could have worked out they would have met some other way...... Its in your court my friend.just make it a family trip no matter how much it costs or whatever you have to do to go......
always here for you my friend
cliff

Thanks Cliff, but, talked to her this morning. Turns out WW and her best friend decided it would be too expensive to do the Kentucky thing. So appearantly they are going to Best Friends house to do grown up things. It's over Memorial Day weekend, and Best Friend won't have her kids, and WW won't have our kids. It would be a perfect opportunity for her to meet OM at best friends house, especially since Best Friend talks to OM too.

Don't see how I can insist anything at this point. Guess, the only thing I can do at this point is to see what happens between now and Memorial Day weekend.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW:
I agree with Cliff go on the trip, but if it's too expensive for her to go then I guess you don't have to worry about it.

One thing you could do if she goes to BF over Memorial Day is to drop in unexpectedly. (You know like the girls wanted to see Mom.) If OM is there, maybe you confront him. I mean, I wouldn't call what you have a M, so could it really hurt that much. Physically no, mentally yes. But she gets to see that you're willing to fight for what is yours. Something to think about. Guess you have sometime to figure that one out.

Good luck and God Bless!

Well, LB'd big time. We were out on the porch smoking, and she made a reference about me being a drama queen because I'm using anti-anxiety medicine. It really hurt my feelings, because I felt she just didn't understand. She responded when she was feeling those feelings long ago, she got through it with no medication.

So, I went inside and made a big show out of throwing them into the garbage. She said don't be an idiot. So I confronted her about my opinion that OM isn't moved back in with his W, but with his mom, she was like where did I get that? I accused her of lying, and she asked where I got that idea and that I didn't know what I was talking about. Well, then I really did it and mentioned that I knew OM was planning on making a trip at the end of the month like she is and all that implies. Well, OM is in Hudson NY and she said his plans are to go to Salem. Not sure I believe that, but I still believe OM is NOT living with his W.

Needless to say, she left to go do one of her wiccan things, Full Moon Ritual or something. After she left, I called her on her cell phone, and she at least talked to me. She accepted my apology for calling her a liar, and I told her I regretted saying it, especially after I realized what I said. I then told her, that my throwing the pills into the garbage was being a drama queen. Making this long story short. I know she's still upset, but not as upset. She still thinks I'm using spyware, which I'm not, but I can't make her believe that.

Anyway, I guess we'll see how things are going when she gets home. Oh, and I got the pills back out of the garbage. I realized though, I may not need them. As each day goes on and I have to deal with her betrayal every day, it gets easier. Not sure what that means.

Have you ever got the contact information for the OM?

I think you are doing a good job. Don't worry too much about who OM is living with. Just keep working on yourself and the marriage. If she decides to relocate, let her go and tell her to send child support.

I would not go with her. She needs to make up her mind that her fantasy is over, time to work on the marriage.

RW- I know that your self-esteem is in the toilet. But you have provided a good life for your WW and kids.

I got a horse when I was 12 and kept her until I went to college. It has been my life-long dream to get another one. But in California, it is just too expensive.

So give yourself some credit, and don't be sucked into her drama. I would trade places with her in a minute. She has it made, and just needs to figure that out.

Recovering_H: I have OM's work number, work email, and personal email. But he's recently moved. WW says he moved back in with his W. Doesn't matter at this point. It will once WW decides to stay in marriage or not.

Believer: That's what WW and counselor have both been telling me all along. Stop worrying about OM and worry about working on my relationship with WW, which is in the toilet.

I've come to the conclusion part of my problem maybe that I've neglected the spiritual side of myself for so long, that it's affecting the physical side.

So, I'm working on getting some inner peace and harmony. I think once I've accomplished that, I'll be able to stop damaging the work WW and I have been doing on our relationship.

I've got to focus on getting WW on my side of the fence before I can worry about who's on the other side looking in.

Oh, btw, get this, WW lost her wedding ring at the Full Moon Ritual. She's lost so much weight, her ring doesn't fit snuggly anymore. She told me the other day how it came off in the shower. Well, it was rainy last night, and she shook her hands and it flew off into the grass.

I've obtained a metal detector, and gotten permission from the state run historical place to use the metal detector to find the ring. Hard part is she was on top of a mound that's 1 to 2 acres in size, and she's not sure where on top she was. It's in the shape of a rectangle, so I'm going to start on the parking lot side of the mound and work my way down. WW thinks I'm crazy for going through so much trouble for a 50 dollar ring. I told her it's not just a 50 dollar ring to me. She said, she doesn't usually put much sentimentality into physical objects, but if it had a diamond on it, it would be a different story.

Well, I'm getting that darned ring, if I have to cover the whole freaking mound.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

I think it is good that you work on yourself. We BS's come kind of unhinged while going through this trauma.

I lost my wedding ring horseback riding. It was loose and somehow while I was holding the reins it came off. I looked for it, but had gone miles and miles on trails and never found it. Good luck.

Thanks for the support Believer.

I believe, all of the altercations that have occured since the onset of this nightmare are a product of my own creation. I'm so full of negativity, and that's not healthy.

Spent 2.5 hours looking for that darned ring this morning. No luck. I got the cheap metal detector from Radio Shack, but it just wasn't powerful enough to deal with the grass. No worries I guess. WW hasn't really felt married to me in a long time anyway. All she misses is the sensation of a ring, could be any ring, that was on her finger. Like our marriage I'm sure that will fade in time too.

However, she did mention if we stay together, she'd like to replace it with a knotwork band.

No date night last week, and Sunday Family day was nonexistant. Then again, she was still upset with me yesterday. Today, our lunch date went ok, I guess. We were able to have a decent conversation. She didn't want to kiss me bye this morning, but she did kiss me bye when I dropped her off at work. Since she's been home....well, just more distance I think.

Practicing deep breathing techniques for relaxation. Have yet to take that into meditation. I feel, if I can maintain a positive environment, should see something eventually.

I guess I could say, I'm finally swimming with the current instead of against it. I've been fighting this situation and I'm tired. Guess I'll see where the current takes me.

There's a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path.

Today is counseling day. Aside from this past Saturday night, I don't think I have anything negative to say at counseling today. Probably I'll acknowledge all our altercations since this began were initiated by me, with all my negative thoughts and feelings. Difficult to overlook OM, but until I can get WW to commit to the marriage, kinda pointless to focus on OM. So, not sure what WW will add.

WW was friendly yesterday. When she got home, I made my self scarce. WW and the girls were on WW's bed doing tickle torture. They called for me to come up. Had fun for awhile, all of us. Was very nice. DD(3) ran off to do her find something to get in trouble thing. WW ran off DD(12). Suddenly I realized, WW were alone laying on the bed.

We were both laying width wise on our stomachs, but WW scooted closer then rolled on her side with her back to me. She scooted even closer until she was against me. I got the hint, she wanted me to hold her. That was nice. That's more than she's wanted from me since this past weekend.

My new improved positive approach seems to be paying off for me. I find myself much less anxious or tense. Really making an effort to block all the negative thoughts that want to creep into my head. I'm finding it's not a constant battle anymore. I figure, there will be a time to address those negative thoughts, but now is not it.

I just find it rather odd, to be needed by someone who says they're not in love with me, and not sure they ever were. I definitly believe that was fog talk when that rolled out.

I'm hoping today's counseling session is the first real positive session yet. It's gotten to the point WW and I both don't look forward to it. But I am today.

your entire thread brings me back to a member named GSM who posted here for over a year, a while back. he was on the emotional needs board and in my opinion, there never was a man who tried harder to save his marriage.

you two guys sound sound much alike that it's crazy. the scary thing is that your Ws sound alike as well...of course i'm only hearing your side of the problem but when i read your posts i get the same sick feeling in my stomach i used to get when i read his.

here's the thing. tangible progress has to be more then just wishful thinking. has it occured to you that patience is not always a virtue? that you may have a right to loose your temper and that you don't always have to apologize for being human? that maybe your W's once sided approach to things is not in error but may be pure selfishness and opportunism on her part?

right now it sounds to me as if your W is content to have you around as her life style alternative...kind of the chioce that's always there for her to fall back on...the man that if managed correctly (with a minimum of effort on her part) will just always be there as a fall back alternative. and frankly, if you want to not just save your marriage but have a real one to boot (fancy that?!) then your W is going to have to develop a new vision of who you are?

sorry guy but you're sounding just to nice. civility and good manners are never out o place but either is saying it how you feel or telling it like it is. that's called honesty last time i looked and it sounds to me that your W needs a good dose.

coach

Coach:

Thanks for posting. Don't think I don't tell her how I feel, and what I think. Because I do, all the time. I never let her forget it.

We go to marriage counseling every week. At the moment, she's just trying to decide if she even wants to stay in the marriage. I've already made it clear, if she does, then I will accept nothing less than NC with OM for ever.

All I'm trying to do right now, is pull her stubborn butt off the fence, on my side. Then the real work can begin. Believe me, right now I might appear to be a doormat, and I feel it too. But she's going to have to make a choice, me or OM. There is a time limit on how long I'm going to wait for her to decide. But the real work on honesty, trust, loyalty, morality, and anything else you think of, can't happen until she decides.

So, I'm doing the best I can with all things considered. At this point, 1 of 2 things is going to happen, she will leave, or we'll begin working on a relationship I'd like to think will be much stronger than before.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Today was probably the first day I didn't have something negative to say in counseling. WW didn't have anything negative to say either. Surprisingly, she was quite positive.

We ended up talking about the altercation we had Saturday night, and how we might have handled it better.

WW's childhood affects her ability to cope with conflict. She goes defensive then offensive, then wants to drive off until she's not mad anymore and not actually solve any problems.

WW also admitted to telling me things in such a way as to protect my feelings. Counselor explained that's not being honest, and most people, including me, would rather hear the truth regardless of how painful it is. It's much more preferrable to being "protected".

Counselor walked us back through the altercation to show us how we might have handled things differently, and how that might have affected the situation. Not sure how effective it was, due to it showed me what I already knew about WW's inability to deal with conflict.

One day at a time...

[ May 05, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Been real busy last couple of days. Thursday night, went to a friends house. WW wanted to interview them for a story she's working on about cultural differences etc. My friend's wife and step son are from Russia.

Long story, I had to leave at 6:30 to take DD(12) to her last school choir concert of the year. It was over at 8:30, and WW was still over at MY friends house. But, she left there shortly after my call.

She got home a little after 9pm. Both children were ready for bed. DD(3) was down in my room settling down for the night. WW laid down in my room for a little bit, and got up and went to take out her contacts. Not long after that, she called downstairs to me. Invited me right up into her room. Don't need to provide anymore details about that.

The big thing here is, she didn't say it was just sex before hand. I made a point to look right into her eyes and told her that I loved her. No response, expected as much. No biggie there.

Later, when I was back in my room, we were chatting, and she mentioned she had noticed how different things were with me since this past weekend. She went so far as to say, things were better, not perfect, but tolerable. I guess that's a step up from what she was saying when this first all started. You know, that I was an irritating room mate...

Anyone know where I can buy something to jerk her butt off the fence? Lasso maybe?

Anyway, for date night tonight, she suggested take out chinese before we go see a movie. Van Helsing. Think we'll have to discuss dinner plans more. I think afterwards I'll talk her into a beer or a coffee for some actual conversation instead of just sitting next to me in a theatre.

Be sure to bring ear plugs to the movie. It is very loud. Sounds like things are going fairly well. Keep on keeping on.

I thought the movie was great, not awesome, but great. There were some things WW and I both agreed could have been done differently, but overall we liked it and had a good time. Wouldn't mind mentioning some things about it, but don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't seen it yet.

Going to movies with WW have always been a "close" thing. We would hold hands or I would just put my hand on her leg. Last night was good. WW let me keep my hand on her leg, and even held it off and on throughout the movie. It felt good.

During the week, in one of the emails I sent WW, I suggested doing some camping before it gets too uncomfortable to camp. Well, on the way to the movie, I brought this up. WW thought it was a good idea, and suggested we go to a nearby lake/campground. It'll only be for one night, because it was a spur of the moment decision. She'll head out there today with the kids, and when I get off work, I'll go out and find them. Sounds like hide and seek huh?

Sometimes I hate working on Saturdays, but I guess there are pros and cons to everything. This morning before I left for work, I kissed DD(3(3), and I've been kissing WW on the head/cheek and wishing her a good day. This morning, she was awake and puckered up for a kiss on the lips. I said I hope she has a good day, and I'll see her later, I love you, bye. She said I love you too. What a nice start to what promises to be an awesome weekend!

Don't want to overshadow any of the good with any of the bad, but I feel to be fair to my readers, I need to include as much as I can of what I know.

Facts: WW is going to Best Friends Memorial Day weekend. From the Wednesday before, to Monday. OM is also planning an end of May trip, I know not where. Best Friend is recently divorced and seeing a married man.

Suspicions: I believe Best Friend's situation influences WW. I believe Best Friend would help WW decieve me by having OM come visit too over Memorial Day vacation.

Due to lack of trust, I know what I must do, and I don't like it. But, I have to know if WW is telling the truth, that it's just going to be her and her Best Friend. I have plenty of time to find out.

Don't worry about what hasn't happened yet. Try to have a great time camping and start building up new memories together. I love to camp.

Hopefully it will give you some rest and relaxation. You really need that about now.

You're right Believer, I'm really looking forward to getting off work today! WW called me and asked if I could pick some stuff up on the way out to the campground. BEER! oh yeah, and water! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Gosh, I can't remember the last time I looked so forward to going camping.

Thinking only happy, positive thoughts. No negative vibes!

Good for you. And don't blame yourself for thinking negative thoughts, we all go through that. Don't expect too much from her while camping, just enjoy. It will be good for you.

And remember the A is not about you, but mostly about your WW's weakness. So be strong, and lead her back to the marriage. Have fun.

Well, camping was great. We all got sunburned! WW and I got along really well. We even talked about taking a camping trip without the kids, and all that implies.

Not sure if this means anything, but I've been getting a lot of "I love you too's" lately. Not every time, but enough. Just wondering if she'll ever say it first.

Last night, WW mentioned since it was Mother's Day she shouldn't have to cook. I agreed, and I fixed dinner, and cleaned the kitchen afterwards.

Later, we were outside having a smoke, and I said if we're still together for next year's Mother's Day, I'd get her a hotel room with a jacuzzi and get her a day at a spa.

Today on our lunch date, she mentioned she expected to get that next year. I didn't even respond. She said it as if we would be together next Mother's Day. And still no commitment to our marriage.

GAH, I'm just so tired of being lonely. My twin bed sucks, and she's up in our Queen size. I hate waking up in the middle of the night and reaching over to put my arm around her, only to realize I'm all alone, downstairs in a rinky dink twin size bed.

Sounds very promising to me. I would try to stick it out a bit longer.

I'm glad you had a nice time camping. Try to think of some other fun things to do, together alone, or with the kids.

While we were camping, we even talked about going camping without the kids. She seemed ok with that notion too. Wonder if it will ever come to fruition. Guess we'll see what happens when she gets back from her 5 day Memorial Day vacation to her best friends house in Kansas City.

Had a little talk with WW this afternoon. I mentioned I was happy with the changes in my life. She said that's all that mattered was my happiness with the changes. I asked how she felt about them. WW said she was fine with them, but she was working on that love thing.

I asked if she meant if she could love me, or if she ever loved me, or if she does love me. At first, she didn't want to answer, and I said, I was just trying to understand what she meant. Then she said all of the above.

I'm guessing that's another positive, not sure. I do know there has been no conflict for the last week and a half. I have no idea what were going to talk about in counseling.

This has been going on for 2 months now. I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to make it this long. But here I am, willing to finish this out to our agreed upon 6 months, if it takes that long.

Here's something interesting. One of WW's coworkers does metal detecting, and has a very nice metal detector. Appearantly WW mentioned losing her ring and where. The coworker knows the director of the historical site and thinks he can get permission to go look for it. I said, that's pretty cool, but I thought it didn't mean anything to her anyway. She even mentioned if we stayed together she wanted a knotwork wedding band. She said, you're right, and got quiet.

I pried a little bit more, and she finally let on if he found it she'd be more than happy to put it back on. That dumbfounded me a bit. Maybe she's leaning my way....

[ May 11, 2004, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Counseling went well. So well in fact, WW and I are to continue doing what we're doing. The counselor feels the last week and a half is the path we should be on. WW also expressed it's been good. The counselor felt things were going so well in fact, she made our next appointment 2 weeks from now.

However, I elected to have individual counseling next Wednesday. I figure that's when I'll have the best opportunity to talk about all my concerns and feelings. I figure she's the best person to vent to.

Since we've been home, WW has been irritable, not at me, but in general. I think it being that time of the month might have something to do with it.

As of today, D-Day was exactly 2 months ago. Only 5.5 months to go for WW to decide to stay in the marriage or not. Not sure if how things are going at the moment will make a difference or not. Still can't stand having to share WW with OM. But, we can't move forward with our marriage until she decides what she wants.

The counselor believes some of WW's issues stem from childhood, and recommended a book for her to read. I would have to agree. WW has some seriously messed up issues.

I'll continue to post on this thread, especially since I'm using it as my own journal of sorts. Documenting my journey through this nightmare called life.

I think your wife does have issues. Of course it is hard for you to be going through all of this. Just remember, the reason she is doing this probably has very little to do with you.

So take a deep breath, stand up, and lead her back to the marriage.

Well, I've told WW that I love her, and I understand what she's going through. I told her I'd give her the time to make the decision that's right for her. I have hope.

Last night, we made dinner together and she picked up stuff to make drinks. Dinner was awesome, and the drinks were awesome. Another girl at the barn took care of her horse last night. I put DD(3) in the bathtub and WW finished bathing her. Of course, I vaccumed the entire house, inlcuding her room. I also cleaned the garage. Didn't even get an acknowledgment for any of those things. By 10pm she was asleep on the couch. When I went to bed, I covered her up and she woke up briefly. She did thank me for covering her up. No idea what time she woke up and went to bed.

Date night tonight, we're going bowling. That's another thing. At counseling on Wednesday, she mentioned when it's my week to decide on Date Night, she doesn't want me to give her a list of things we can do for her to pick from. She wants me to pick one and then ask her hey how about we do this?

Been thinking about this. I can plan a nice dinner somewhere and then take her someplace we've never been that I think would be cool. The horsetrack! Seeing how she loves horses, I think it would be a cool idea. Next week is her night to plan Date Night, and the week after she'll be in Kansas City with her Best Friend from Wednesday after counseling till Monday afternoon/evening. So I guess, I'll have to plan something for that week after she gets home.

Been doing a lot of thinking about what I can/want to discuss in my individual counseling next week. I figure it'll be a good time to tell the counselor about all of my feelings I've not been able to express in joint sessions. I've got lots of anger, frustration, fear, sadness, lonliness, and lack of self esteem. Personally, I think I'll have to deal with these feelings until she makes her decision to go or stay. It's the coping with these emotions that makes it hard to keep the time we're together happy time.

DD(12) had her counseling session yesterday, took all of about 20 minutes. Have to keep her doc up to date on what the home life is like. Based on the current situation, we decided to keep her off medication unless she starts to have a more severe reaction to our situation. Currently, she's still making good grades, has a good appetite, and is getting plenty of sleep. I talk to her and spend time with her. Her next appointment is for 3 months from now. Hopefully, we'll have a better feel for how things are going to be by then.

Hudson, NY, is a very small town. I live there. If you want to know about OM, I might be able to do a little recon. Doesn't sound as though you need to though... it sounds like everything is going pretty well for you right now.

Orangecrush:

Well, OM is still an issue, unfortunately he'll continue to be so until WW decides she wants to stay married. Not sure how familiar you are with my story, but I'm Plan A'ing my butt off, but I'm still in limbo until WW gets off the fence.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW,
It couldn't hurt to find out anything about OM -especially if the situation arose where it could help in a legal situation later. Although we hope it doesn't come to that. Didn't someone say "well begun is halfway done"? Anyway, any non-instrusive checks you could do could be helpful. Just keep it close to the vest until it's needed.

Friday night Date Night, went out to eat, then went to the mall to visit the video arcade. Well, walked by a book store and didn't make it to the video arcade before the mall started closing. No biggie really, just spending time with WW is good. Suggested we stop and have a couple drinks on the way home, but WW suggested she fix us a drink at home and sit outside for a little bit. Thought that was a good idea, however, DD(12) was still up and wanted to join us outside. WW got cold and went inside after while, and that was the end of that.

Saturday, Girls Day out. WW planned to take the girls to an Art Festival. Called me about 15 minutes before I got off work and asked if I wanted to come out and join them. I was thrilled! I even got an I love you too when we hung up.

Also on Saturday, called WW early in the morning, and ended up asking how she felt about me telling her I love her all the time, because most of the time there are noticeable pauses before she responds. WW said not sure what to say. I told her I understood, and didn't expect any response.

Saturday night, WW online chatting with OM and me. We were online until 1am.

Sunday, I got up, made coffee, and made breakfast. Wasn't really anything special, but I've never done that. Not sure if it made any difference. We went to the zoo, that was great fun! WW actually showed some affection today, from calling my hon/honey, to holding my hand in the car, and actually rubbing my arm and back a few times at the zoo. Got an excellent workout in the process. DD(3) weighs about 30 pounds and rode on my shoulders most of the time. St Louis Zoo is like one of 3 zoos in the country that's free to get into. Not to mention, they're making awesome improvements to it all the time.

Been asking WW about sending out more resumes every day. So far, the only ones she has out are all in the NE, where I absolutely don't want to go. Thinking she's putting it off on purpose.

Sunday night, not too bad I suppose, WW went to ride her horse, and DD(12) started crying when she went to bed, my room is right next to hers. Went to talk to her, and she was crying because she doesn't want us to divorce. I tried explaining that is a possible outcome, but so is us staying together, and at this point we're still a family doing family things, so we need to continue to behave like a family. WW doesn't usually chat with OM when the kids are up.

WW and I discussed something interesting last night, appearantly we both feel sometimes affection between us feels normal, and strange the other times. I expressed my times sometimes feel strange when I make the mistake of stopping and thinking about our situation. She never really said why her strange times are strange.

Oh, and she talked about her mean side too. Personally I think it's a result of her childhood. I told her there are times I'm afraid to touch her, hug her, kiss or, or talk to her. And she said I shouldn't be afraid to talk to her.
So, I explained about some of the hurtful mean things she's said to me. They're all here in this thread, but that's when she started talking about her mean side. WW indicated sometimes she means those mean hurtful things, and other times she doesn't. I really think she's messed up. Not just the fog, but some serious mental issues.

Only time will tell, I'm just afraid living like this each day, is just going to keep killing whatever love I have for her. If the good times don't get better, not sure how I'm going to feel by the time she gets off the fence.

Tomorrow, she's off from work because she has to work next Saturday. WW already informed me she plans to spend it all out at the barn, no Monday Lunch Date or anything.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

What kind of chat line are you on that you talk to WW and OM?

Oh, I don't talk to OM, WW does. We use AIM, and she talks to several people at once.

Monday, got up, got DD(3) ready for Daycare and took her in. Came home, WW was still in bed, so I went in there, she was mostly awake. I laid down on the bed, and mentioned how much I miss that bed. It's really comfortable. She asked if I missed the bed, or her being in it. I said both. I stayed there for a few minutes, and got up, and she asked where I was going. I don't remember what I said, but thought maybe she didn't want me to leave. So, I laid back down again. This time I moved closer to her and put an arm around her. Stayed there for a few minutes longer, then started feeling guilty because I had invited myself in there instead of her inviting me. She fell asleep and I got up and fixed myself a cup of coffee and went outside to make some phone calls to my parents.

WW finally got up, and came outside. She mentioned something about me not snuggling for very long. Told her I felt guilty for inviting myself and not being invited.

Well, WW's horse destroyed her feed tub in her stall at the barn. The Barn Manager and WW were unsuccessful in removing the broken feed tub. I volunteered to take my hand-dandy trusty can of WD-40 and my tools to try and get it off. She said ok. Well, WW wanted to get a waist pouch to carry stuff in like her phone for when she's out trail riding, which is one of the things she wanted to do yesterday.

We needed some stuff for the house too, so we went to Wal-Mart and then headed to the barn. I got the old broken feed tub off, and the new one installed. WW was very thankful.

I hung around a little longer, until she was getting her horse ready to ride, and I said I was going home and for her to call me when she was ready for me to come pick her up. So, she says to her horse something about me not wanting to watch her ride. At this point, I said I'd like to stay and watch her ride, I enjoy it. I watched her ride for about 30 minutes in the arena, when she decided she was ready to go for a trail ride, and she said she'd call me when she was ready for me to pick her up.

Went home, worked on laundry, and thought of some things.

First bad point: How can having sex just to have sex be a problem when she had her affair just to have sex?
Second bad point: We're having an in house seperation, what I do in my room is my business first of all. Secondly, I'm only online when she gets on the computer. How can what she's doing online be any better than what I'm doing online. Personally, I think what I'm doing is much more harmless than what she's doing.

First thing I said to myself is I need to make sure I don't jump to any extremes. So, I fumed about it for awhile, trying to figure out what to do. I decided I wouldn't try staying offline, so when we're online at the same time, I'll just have to make sure she knows I'm NOT playing solitaire. As far as the sex is concerned, I'll just stop asking all together since it seems to bother her so much. I plan to continue Plan A'ing my butt off. I will continue to show her affection, and express my love to her. I'm basing these decisions from what I see in the real world.

Oh, and I did her laundry yesterday. I didn't do her laundry because it needed doing, but because I needed to do mine, and she started hers first. I could have just piled the clean clothes on her bed, but I know if someone took my clothes out of the dryer, I'd appreciate it if they took the measures to make sure they didn't end up all wrinkled.

Last night, we sat on the same couch after dinner, and I ended up rubbing her feet. WW's riding boots are great for riding, but not for spending a lot of time walking in. I was sitting at the end of the couch and she was laying down with her feet in my lap.

We watched CSI:Miami (NY CSI intro) and afterwards she fell asleep on the couch, and didn't even get online.

So, for the most part, our interactions are good, but that's about it. Our 6 month in house seperation agreement began at the beginning of May, so got lots of time for feelings, opinions to change.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

They're all too faced when involved in an A. The other thing that is good is that she is noticing your changes.

Please remember that most women do not get into affairs for sex - it is for emotional reasons.

The rubbing feet thing is good. Keep that up. Someday I'm going to write a book for men about what women need. They need affection and carressing that does not lead to sex. I have heard this from hundreds of women, but men just don't get it.

Well, I understand the 2 facedness, but I don't like it. I guess that's the only way they can justify their actions.

WW is really grasping for things to complian about where I'm concerned.

I haven't mentioned anything about sex since the previous weekend.

Like I said before, I'm not asking, nor talking about sex where WW is concerened. Only reason I rubbed her feet was because they were hurting. I'm not as completely insensitive as WW thinks I am. I won't lie and say I wasn't becoming aroused, but all I had to do was think about all her transgressions and that problem was solved.

I managed to get the digital camera away from WW while we were at the zoo. I got a picture of WW riding on a rabbit on the zoo carousel! I'm going to post a link to it when I get it into a web space. I just want everyone to see how happy she looks.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, now this takes the cake. WW called me from her cell phone on the way home from work yesterday. Get this, she asked if I wanted to have sex last night. Now, not to appear too eager, I replied, um, yeah, sure, sounds good. She said, figured you wouldn't turn it down. I replied, last thing I want to do is turn down sex when that's one of the things she complained about.

I gave DD(3) a bath, and got stuck watching Aladdin with her until 10pm. WW was already online by this point. I put DD(3) in her own bed and went out for a smoke, WW followed, still no mention or anything about sex. Went back to my room and got online. Made a point to talk to her about what I was doing online, and that I was bored/tired of playing solitaire.

I was online a total of about an hour. From about 10:15 till about 11:17. That's when I sent a message to WW telling her good night, sweet dreams. She responded with "Already?" I replied,"it's almost 11:30". Then she says, she's working on some pics she took and chatting, but she may come down and visit me later. I said ok, sounds good, logged off and went to bed NOT holding my breath. Imagine my surprise when she shows up around 12:30.

Now I want to point out that none of this was solicited by me.

Like I said before, I haven't said anyting about sex for like a week and a half. Not to mention, what was that affair all about 2 years ago? She doesn't want to have sex just to have sex...yeah, right. When she called me and asked me if I wanted to have sex yesterday, I darn near fainted.

Individual counseling this afternoon, and this is definitly getting brought up.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

We all know you are right. She is making up things about you to justify her bad behavior. I do think that the fact that she wants SF with you is good.

Thanks believer, I've tried to provide the facts and my opinions, not just my perspective.

Counseling yesterday was good for me. I was able to vent everything to the counselor. She felt I should have been bringing some of my issues up in counseling. I expressed, if she decides she doesn't want to stay married what's the point?

My arguement was, a vast majority of my unresolved issues can't be resolved until she makes her decision. The counselor said she got the feeling I'm just trying not to make waves. I said, she's right, the last two weeks have been awesome.

I think the counselor is now more aware to what the situation is vs. what WW leads us to believe in counseling. I think WW has a problem being honest to herself. I won't know how much of a difference this will make until our next joint counseling, which is next Wednesday, right before she goes to her Best Friends house for the weekend.

Here's an interesting twist, it's my perception that for WW to stay married to me that she has to agree to NC with OM forever. The counselor said it was her perception WW has absolutely no intention of ever giving him up. Told WW about this, and I explained, I would never be able to trust her being just friends with him.

I called WW when I got home, and she asked about counseling. I said we talked about my unresolved issues. WW wanted to know about my unresolved issues. I asked if she was sure she wanted to talk about them over the phone. She did. So I began telling her, about my trust issues, and anger, and frustrations. I also told her I felt they would remain unresolved until she made her decision. WW asked if I was just planning on dumping them all on her if she decided to stay in the marriage. I explained, it's not like that. By her staying in the marriage, and truely working on the marriage, my issues would begin to resolve.

I told WW I know changes don't happen over night, but the last two weeks have been really good, and I asked her if she felt anything for me. She said in a very low voice, "yes". I didn't ask for any details, or ask her to explain. I just let it go.

WW came home from work, and everything seemed fine. We took the digital camera into the backyard and took pictures of her feet! She's got a foot fetish, and wanted to share on the deviant art website. Of course, it's distressing to see the things OM has to say, but oh well, not much I can do about it...yet.

So, I continue down this road, with no end in sight. My chin is up, and I'm feeling good about myself. Wish I could feel as good about my marriage as I do about family time.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW: Isn't the end, or maybe better put- the beginning of a recommittment to your marriage or to start over (end this M) at the end of the six months period? (Which I believe you stated somewhere in this thread was around your anniversary date?) Don't give up hope. Try not to get too up or too down. Bide your time and Plan A as you have been. Don't worry about if things will work out, they will. You may not know it now, but eventually you will. Hang in there buddy!

Recovering_H:

Thanks for the support. Our anniversary is Oct 13. Our 6 months ends at the end of Oct. I'd like to think we'll know more definitly by the anniversary date, because if things feel really good at that time, I want to propose to her again. I think that would be an awesome way to start a new beginning.

Sometimes I wonder if I have the patience to get through this. Seems to me it should be easy for WW to decide yes/no.

The last few weeks have been really good between WW and me. Every day is still very difficult to get through. I have to face her infidelity, and sometimes it's very difficult not to let that show.

WW said she doesn't want me to stop telling her I love you, or stop trying to show her affection. But how long do you keep trying to say I love you, before you get tired of not hearing it back, or get tired of hearing I know. How long do you keep trying to show affection, when the brick wall doesn't return it? I asked her directly today, why she doesn't want me to stop telling her I love you. Her response was I don't know, I haven't really thought about it. Nothing else was said.

She's got her cake and is eating it too, and it's my responsibility to keep things happy at home while she's doing this. It's not fair to me, or to the kids. I feel she's stringing everyone along, not just me and the kids, but OM too.

Ok, I'm done complaining. Yesterday, took my Memorial Day holiday, WW called in sick to spend it with me. Everything was good until she went to the barn from 11:00am to 2:00pm, to clean 3 horse stalls and ride her horse. I will add, there was a small inimate moment before she left. We had a close moment, where I kissed the side of her neck and shoulder. She was responding, but she pushed away. Could have been for any number of reasons, doesn't matter really.

Last night, she laid down on her bed with DD(3) to get her to fall asleep. When DD(3) was asleep, I put her in bed. WW woke up when I did this and mentioned her tummy hurting. Told her I hoped she felt better, and was there anything I could do? There wasn't.

Took dogs outside, smoked a cigerette. Came back in, and WW was still laying on her bed. Went into her room and woke her up and asked if she was staying here. Didn't realize it at first, but she sat up with this confused look on her face, and I asked her again if she was staying here. Then I realized, she didn't understand I was asking if she was staying here, in bed, where she was, and further explained I was going to turn off lights and shutdown her computer if she was. I don't have to explain what she thought, I'm sure you all can figure that out.

Well, this morning, I kissed her bye, and said I was leaving, she smiled, and said, yeah, but you'll be back.

DD(12) is going to Six Flags today for a school chorus field trip, so WW is taking DD(3) with her to work. I get to pick up after I get off work.

I'm sure WW will be online most, if not all, the time while she's at work. She's been surfing that deviant art website all week, not done much work at all really. I think she's written only 2 stories all week. Sad part is, I'm sure as soon as she gets home, it'll be online time.

Tomorrow is Family Day, we haven't discussed anything yet, guess it's going to be a fly by the seat of our pants day. More than likely, we'll just end up sitting around the house. If it looks like that's going to happen, then I'm going to take the kids somewhere and invite WW to come with. Not sure what though, looks like isolated T-storms / Wind. Might be just a hang out watch movies kind of day. I may not get a chance to cut the grass until later in the week. Right now, looks like storms up till Thursday.

If the weather is bad, stay home and relax. Why not get stuff to make your own pizza. My kids used to love that. I got frozen bread, thawed it and smashed it down to make pizza crust. Then have lots of toppings so every one can make their own.

Sounds like you are doing very well.

RW:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Our anniversary is Oct 13. Our 6 months ends at the end of Oct. I'd like to think we'll know more definitly by the anniversary date, because if things feel really good at that time, I want to propose to her again. I think that would be an awesome way to start a new beginning. <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like a great idea!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sometimes I wonder if I have the patience to get through this. Seems to me it should be easy for WW to decide yes/no. <hr /></blockquote>These are trying times!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The last few weeks have been really good between WW and me. Every day is still very difficult to get through. I have to face her infidelity, and sometimes it's very difficult not to let that show <hr /></blockquote>Keep on keeping on.

Couple other thoughts about your post...how long do you have to keep working on it? And she gets to have her cake and eat it too.

I've learned that they have their crosses to bear as well. Some handle it better than others. And true, it feels like they really don't get punished while you go through he!!. Unfortunately, it's not that easy to say that even though it feels like it. Hang in there and let your plan work its course. If it doesn't work out, then you'll have no regrets (that doesn't mean you won't feel like crap though).

Believer: My room is directly beneath WW's. I heard DD(3) get up, so I got up to keep her in line and let WW sleep in. Made coffee and cinnamon rolls! YUM! They were a hit, everyone loved them!

Recovering_H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Couple other thoughts about your post...how long do you have to keep working on it? And she gets to have her cake and eat it too.
<hr /></blockquote>Not quite sure what you mean by your question. Our in house seperation is until the end of Oct. She doesn't have to get off the fence and make her decision until then. Obviously, she could make it sooner, but I think she'll wait until October just to be sure.

WW left for the barn around 9:30am and didn't get home into about 3pm. She called around 2 and said she was cleaning her tack and then she'd be home. I was very careful not to let her know how upset I was, especially with my suspicions running rampant these days. I'm glad too, because we talked about her day afterwards. Cleaning 3 horse stalls takes about an hour, and she said she took about a 2.5 hour trail ride. Cleaning tack took her about 45 mins or so. The rest of the time was spent grooming her horse. It really was all horse time.

Around 5pm it was time to go back to the barn and bring the horses in for the day. I asked if I could come with her, and she said sure. On the way back from the barn, she decided to show me the route she went on for her trail ride, which was mostly on streets. It was surprising to us both, just how close she actually got to the house, considering she was riding on back roads. She said next time she'd come all the way home, tie the horse to a tree, and we could have lunch before she rode back to the barn. Actually sounds pretty cool, kinda miss having my horse and getting to ride.

WW turned on the computer when she got home, but never got online. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> We sat on the couch together watching TV. At one point I reached over and rubbed her leg and said, I love you. She said nothing, after a couple seconds I moved my hand back on the couch. She reached over and rubbed my hand, I guess in acknowledgement. Something was definitly better than nothing.

This morning, her alarm clock woke me up, so I went upstairs. She was awake listening to the radio, I asked if I could come in and cuddle. She said ok. Well, things were going ok, except DD(3) was in bed too, and she's got this thing where she likes to stick her feet between your thighs or under them. And can't stay still, so that began irritating WW. Then DD(3) kept scooting closer and closer to WW. With me on one side, and DD(3) crowding on the other, she was starting to get really irritated. Sigh, then I accidentally scratched her ankle with my big toe. I've got horrible toe nails, and can't cut them too short without getting ingrown nails. DD(3) started kicking soon after that, and WW decided she was getting up. At first, I felt bad because of her attitude, and thought I might somehow be responsible. After thinking about it, I realized it was merely only a culmination of different factors. WW was in the shower, and I opened the door and told her I felt bad at first, but after thinking about it, realized it wasn't about me at all. She said the only thing I did was the whole ankle scratching, her ire was mostly as a direct result of squirming, kicking DD(3).

Last night, I asked WW if she'd like to go to Olive Garden for Monday Lunch Date, and she said she's not real fond of Olive Garden. She then suggested a picnic lunch. I think that's a great idea, and have been considering it. Last night, though, we thought it was going to be raining most of the day so we decided to go to a Greek restaurant instead. I said we'd do the picnic lunch the Monday after she get's back from her Best Friends house from her Memorial Day vacation.

Haven't gotten an I love you, too, in a while, but things have been good. I do have a spot of bad news though. OM has an online journal on the same website as WW. I browsed it today, and appearantly he was moved back in with his BS, but in a roommate status only. OM's BS thought they might be able to get things back on track under the same roof. Not sure what kind of difficulties they are having, but OM thinks they have communication issues. Needless to say, OM's going on vacation over Memorial Day Weekend as well, not sure at this point it has nothing to do with WW.

WW mentioned this morning she's leaving directly from counseling on Wednesday, so she'll get he car all packed up tomorrow night. Anyway, got a few things I need to do. I'm going to edit this post shortly with a couple of links, pictures of me and my family. If anyone is interested in seeing it's just a click away.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, bummer, can't edit posts anymore after 20 minutes. Completely missed that on the forum list page.

Here are the links:

DD(3)

DD(12)

WW

Me

By the way, since the onset of this nightmare, I've lost 40 pounds. I've gone from 215 to 175. I'm looking trim, feeling good, getting some tan, and WW thinks I'm looking good too. Not sure if that makes much of a difference.

You look good to me too. And you have a nice family. Hopefully all of your patience will pay off.

Well, went to the Greek restaurant today, it's called The Acropolis. We had Gyro's with a piece of Spinach Pie. Then we split a piece of baklava for dessert!

Shortest lunch date yet I think, a whopping 45 minutes. WW gave me a kiss bye of her own accord too.

When I got home, decided to cut the yard, which takes about 2 hours on the landlord's riding mower. Decided to work on the tan some more so I did it without my shirt, definitly got some sun today. The shower afterwards was soooo refreshing!

WW had to go to the barn to clean those nasty horse stalls again. I'll be glad when she's only cleaning her horse's instead of 3. DD(3) wanted to go to see the kitten we found in one of the horse trailers. WW said, that's up to your Daddy. I said, ok, we can go up there for a little bit.

Ended up staying there for a while. I ended up brushing her horse for her so she could finish up cleaning stalls. She said I did a really good job, her coat was shining. It made me feel good to hear her say that.

I came home and had DD(12) take a shower with DD(3) while I took one in the other bathroom. Cleaning horses in hot humid sweaty temps is VERY dirty work. Then I started dinner, soup and grilled cheese sandwiches! I even made a couple sandwiches for WW.

Of course, around 10pm WW got on the computer, and I promptly went downstairs. As I was heading down to my room, WW said, you going down now? And I said, yup. That was approximately 35 minutes ago. I've been chatting with her for approximately 25 minutes now on AIM. How ridiculous is that?

Well, I guess we can safely chalk another good day into the books. And, tomorrow is another day!

Well, we had the sex talk yesterday. I had to make heads or tails out of what she was saying. Now I know, men and women think nothing alike.

I can also understand her not wanting to tell me exactly what she wants. If you want your loved one to show you more affection, and you have to tell them to get it, then it's not the same as if they did this on their own.

Long story short, my asking for sex. Very simple to me. I never asked her the way she did last week when she called me on her way home from work.

A friend of mine loaned me a book, How to Ignite her Fire. Well, this book's been sitting in her bathroom. She's been reading it. I guess this is a good thing.

WW told me where a man doesn't take much prep, that a women has to be physically ready, emotionally ready, AND in the mood. To me, that is incredibly complicated.

I guess the good thing is, I understood the main problem. Even with my believed subtle suggestions about sex, it was too direct for her, and only turns her off. Don't understand how it's ok for her to be extremely direct, but not ok for me. Anyway, I get it. Of course this happened at work, and I didn't get it until after I got home.

What she's looking for, is for me to NOT ask for sex, but rather try physical prep things, like kisses, shoulder massages, etc.

Here's something else, sex is on the top 5 of our top 10 EN's. But how we look at sex is completely different! Men typically look at physical prep type stuff as a prelude, with WW, it doesn't necessarily NEED to turn into sex, if it does great, if it doesn't great. Either way one of her EN's is being met.

Needless to say, I called her when I got home, and told her I get it. I felt like a dog getting a bone. She actually sounded surprised when I gave her explanation back to her in my own perspective.

So, it's not that she doesn't want to have sex with me as much as it's she wants me to change my approach. Then again, she's maintained it shouldn't be just sex with her husband. I see this as a positive as she wants me to make an effort for it to NOT FEEL like sex.

Here's another thing. I've been telling her I love you all along, several times a day. Well, sometimes if I get an I love you too, it feels like a reflex, other times I'm not so sure.

Listen to this. She's been cleaning 3 horse stalls at the barn, well, yesterday I offered to help, and she accepted. On the way to the barn, I rubbed my hand up and down her thigh, in a firm affectionate way, and said I love you as meaningfully as I could. She said, I love you, too. I didn't get the I know, but it didn't feel like a reflex either. Then, I went to bed early, didn't get much sleep the night before, due to the storm and power outage, well, got a kiss and a real nice hug, and told her again, I love you. Got another sincere sounding I love you too, as she was hugging me just as intensely as I was.

Here's yet another one. Needed to make sure she got up when I left for work this morning, she has to clean those same 3 stalls this morning before she goes to work, because she's leaving for her long weekend with her Best Friend after counseling. I went into her room, and got yet another I love you too. Just for the record, the last 3 times I've said I love you, I've gotten an I love you too. Considering that's something she's really been stingy with, 3 times in a row is quite shocking. I'm not sure if I should view it as positive progress, or not read anything into it at all.

Oh, by the way, we have marriage counseling today, and I have no clue what we're going to talk about. I have nothing to say.

Here's one last nice little tidbit, I get to sleep in "our" bed while she's gone. I miss that bed, but I think it'll be much more lonely in the queen size than the twin size.

Have a nice day!

Almost didn't have MC yesterday. The counselor took my company's EAP, but not my company's insurance. So, we had to switch to WW's insurance. Originally, the counselor was told no deductable, and 15 copayments, unlimited visits. Which is very doable. Well, yesterday she called WW at work and told her something different, they were talking about a $250 deductible, and we'd have to pay $90 for sessions until the deductible was met.

WW called me and told me all that. For some reason she wanted me to call the counselor back and deal with it, not sure why, but I did. While we were waiting for the counselor to confirm the correct payment arrangements, WW asked if we really needed to go to MC today. Appearantly we both feel good about how things have been going, and neither one of us could think of anything we needed to talk about in counseling. We agreed, if we only had to make the $15 copay we would go, otherwise, we'd reschedule.

We ended up having to make the $15 copay, so we went to counseling. We talked about how we felt about the last few weeks. WW feels good about them like I do. The counselor doesn't want us to make major changes to our in house seperation contract except in counseling, but we're allowed to make little changes. This means, if we decide to want to spend more time together than what's outlined in the contract, that's our business, how we handle sex is also our business.

Few things WW said in counseling, that I already knew. Whenever I was going downstairs, and she asked where I was going, did in fact mean mean what I thought it meant. That she didn't want me to think I needed to go, and I was welcome to stay. She also said she doesn't want me to stop trying to initiate sex. The counselor even asked her again just to make sure. I guess I just can't say, hey, wanna have sex? Not that I was ever that direct. Have to pay more attention to the situation and put more effort into interaction that can lead to sex without just asking for it. I did bring up that she did call me last week on the way home from work and asked me just that directly. I mentioned it wasn't fair for her to be able to do that, but not expect me too.

So, from counseling, things are going ok. The main thing WW and I need to work on is not talking about serious things via email or chatting. The counselor actually wants us to work on things verbally, since that is where our problem is.

In the last 24 hours, I got 6 I love you too's. Not that I'm trying to keep count, but after 2.5 months of not getting them, you notice when you do. The last one was right after counseling in the parking lot. WW was going to head on to her Best Friend's house in Kansas City. We hugged each other, and I told her I loved her, and that's when I got my last I love you too.

WW called a couple of times during her drive to Kansas City, the last time being when she got there. I'm expecting a call tonight.

I'd be real surprised to get a call from her at work today. But then again, I left her a voice mail on her cell phone. DD(3) was upset her mommy wasn't there this morning.

Sure was nice getting to sleep in the queen size bed last night! I really miss that bed. Miss being in that bed with my wife.

Been using Crest Whitestrips. Since the onsite of this nightmare, I've been smoking almost a pack a day. I was only smoking like 5 a day before that. Well, my teeth were getting dingy, and I didn't like it. I smoked my last smoke yesterday. Told WW was a good time for me to try and quit. I'll have 5 days of no smoking, and I'm really hoping she tries as well. We need to quit. Oh, the Crest Whitestrips are working! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I invited a couple friends over on Sunday, going to cook out if the weather holds. I've got plenty of things to do until WW gets home. Her horse stall to clean, meals to cook, baths to give, cleaning to do, laundry, cutting the grass. Want WW to see I was more than capable of handling EVERYTHING while she was gone.

Don't know how much online time I'll get, but I'll try to keep this thread up to date. Especially with everything APPEARING to go well. Things aren't all better, still sleeping downstairs, and WW is still on the fence. But, I think she's leaning my way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, it's been a trying time. Hardly talked with WW while she was at Best Friends house. I suspect OM may have been there.

On a side note, had fun with the kids, was a good time for us I think. Did some grilling, and dodging tornado's.

WW didn't get home until 9pm. OM called her cell phone at 11:30pm. Not going to speculate, that's been driving me crazy the whole time WW was gone.

I did ask WW about the I love you , too's I got last week. She immediately said something along the lines of she knew she shouldn't have said them, because she didn't want me getting all "weird". I replied, I just wanted to make sure she wasn't saying them because she thought that's what I expected. She said, she said them because she felt like saying them, and was concerned that I would think everything is ok.

I just don't understand how she can think I would misunderstand anything is ok, when I'm still sleeping downstairs, and she's still talking to OM. Jeez, I must seem like an idiot to her or something.

Anyway, I'll know in a couple of days, whether or not she was with OM or not. If he was there, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. For the record, not assuming he was there, I believe it's 50/50 at this point. I just want to know for sure one way or the other.

I've been concerned how things would be between WW and I when she got back, but I really didn't get much time with her last night. There was some hugs though. I wonder if she'll call me today when she gets to work. Time to get back to work.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Called WW at work, and told her it was time for some honesty. I asked her directly if OM was there. She said yes. I asker her directly if they had sex. She said yes. She also said but she feels guilty. She also said she told OM she felt guilty. She said he told her if she decided to stay in the marriage that he'd understand and never talk to her again. Not sure I believe that.

Took the rest of the day off work and picked WW up for lunch. Talked over lunch. WW acknowldeges now she realizes she has to make a choice. She also said she loves him the way she is supposed to love me.

To top this all off Best Friend's journal indicated OM is willing to relocate anywhere for her. But, WW indicated he'd never move away from his kids and WW doesn't want to move away from hers. So she's confused as to what to do. She feels she has 2 options. A) Stay with me and the kids and live with the void of what's missing in our relationship, or B) To leave me and live alone with the void.

I told her that she was going to have to make a decision. It's not fair to keep stringing both of us along. She also said she didn't expect me to be this in love with her, because I never showed it, and I should have been this way all along. She's now concerned if she decides to stay if I'd ever forgive her or trust her. Admittedly, those are both facts, but trust can be worked on.

I'd hoped for her to make a decision at lunch, but she doesn't know what to say or do. She says she's afraid of making a choice that she'll regret later on down the road.

I called our counselor when I got home, and told her everything. She agrees since WW violated our contract, she's got to make a decision now. It's not something that can wait until October. She reminded me that I may be the one to have to make a decision.

I'm not sure what to do anymore.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Well, I guess they "consummated" the affair. If I say what I want to say, they'd kick me off this board.

Sickening.

You have no idea how disappointed I am in your wife's choice to not only see this OM but to sleep with him. I have followed your posts since the beginning. It seemed like a ray of hope for me. My H told me around that time that he wanted a separation. I was devastated. So were my daughters (15 & 13) We moved out at the end of May and my H seemed to be more affectionate and supportive then he had been in weeks. We found out why - he had a secret email account and was planning to meet the OW this month in Pa. He lied about the whole thing even after we showed him the email he had printed out from her with the directions to the "meeting place". Before that I didn't even know there was OW, although I had a sick feeling in my gut that told me there was (just no proof).
I read all your postings hoping for the best for you, your children and your wife. But today it just made me cry. How she could be so incredibly selfish and thoughtless really amazes me. I find the deception and lies from my H the most difficult things to overcome. Really, I wonder if it is worth it. And what happens the next time things are tough and not the way they want it. I think after this you can just count me out.

ITB: I'm very sickened. Counseling should be interesting next week. Ultimatum time.

Playedout: I feel your pain, and hope for the best for you and yours. If anything, I hope this thread shows that no matter how well things appear to be going, never ever, let your guard down.

Talked with WW extensively after she got home today. She claims she used protection with OM. At which point I said, oh well, not like it matters because I won't have sex with her again until I see a clean bill of health from her doctor. Granted I do have condoms available, but that sex with me is the farthest thing from her mind.

Asked WW again if she wanted me to stop expressing my love to her, along with kisses, and affection. She doesn't know. After further questions it became clear, she realizes any other man would have been long gone, and that makes her question why I'm still here trying. She can't seem to convince herself to give me up if my love is true, and is deep as it appears. She even asked why I love her like I do. This was a hard question to answer. I told her when me and my first wife went our seperate ways, I told her there's the door, don't let it hit her on the way out. I knew I didn't love her, but with WW it's different. I don't know how to explain. I told her it's like somehow I've managed to seperate all the pain I feel from her actions from the love I feel for her. I don't know, self preservation?

I've been part of a multi-partner relationship before. Oh yeah, sex was great, but the emotional involvement was lacking, and I had to move on. I think that part of my past may have something to do with my ability to seperate what's happening here.

My constant reaffirmation of my love for her, and my steadfast position in our relationship makes her question herself. I think as long as she questions herself, then her own self doubt grows. She's afraid of making the wrong decision. She actually said at lunch today that she wished she had a crystal ball.

We were outside having a smoke a little while ago. When some of what I've mentioned took place. I reminded her that last week in counseling she expressed a desire in my continued pursuit of sex with her, but not by directly asking for it. Then I asked her if she still felt the same way. Her response was, yes, sex is nice every now and again. And once again, it's back to doing the things that can stir those loving feelings.

I also pointed out to her, that she admitted to feeling guilty about having sex with OM. I said, that tells me she feels SOMETHING for me, otherwise she wouldn't have felt guilt. I told her that is what we need to focus on and nurture.

When I asked her if she wanted me to stop, and she couldn't answer, I asked do you want me to choose? Her response was yes. I told her that my making that choice only makes things easier for her. She then admitted it would. That's when it became clear of how unsure she is about making a choice that could prove to be the wrong one. I think she's finally starting to realize, when I say I love her unconditionally, I mean it.

Sigh, I'm so freaking confused. I don't know what to do. All I know, is I'm hurting like never before, and I still love her with all my heart.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

RW,
i have no wish to make you feel any worse then you already do. i just wanted to let you know not only how disapointed i am on your behalf but how down right angry i am.

what your W did was just plain dishonrable and duplicitious! she planned the whole thing and did it with fore thought and malice.

all i can say good buddy is that sometimes loving some one can be toxic...a shame for sure but true never the less.

coach

Well, WW surprised me today. She sent me an email link for divorce mediation. So I asked, does that mean she's made her decision, or is that link for if she makes that decision. She said it was for if we make that decision. Great.

After our conversation last night, I think she made her decision and just needs time to get the money together.

I called her and admitted to reading her online journal and asked what was true, what she posted yesterday before she came home, or what we talked about last night. She said what we talked about last night was her position, and she had changed her mind. yeah right.

When she came home from work, she brought me a letter that she spent 2 hours writting. I was expecting a Dear John letter. But it mostly talked about her feelings, and why she changed her mind, and the difficulty in making a choice. It also talked about her feelings for me, well, ok, lack of feelings towards me.

I've continually expressed I think we have a real chance at a new relationship, if she'd only give up OM. I knew she had a tough decision before this past weekend, now I imagine it's even tougher.

She said she wished I handled yesterday differently, it would have been easier for her to make if I had blown up and lost control. I think she expected that, and she expected me to try and kick her out or leave with the kids. She was not expecting me to behave with detached reserve. I think it confused her. I can't think of any other reason why last night would have changed her mind.

I do know, that what she wrote me in that letter isn't something she's shared with OM, can say for sure about her best friend of 20 years though.

I went ahead and called a lawyer today, just to see where I would stand if it came to the big D. Basically, I'm in a better standing than her. However, the adultery wouldn't factor in because it wasn't witnessed by the kids.

Of course, the whole divorce thing would cost an arm and a leg. WW even suggested if we decided to part company, we could just get a legal seperation and stay married. I'm like wtf?

I told her I thought of giving her the easy way out and just telling her to go and not let the door hit her on the way out. But I can't do that. I have to see this through to the bitter end, and I absolutely refuse to make this any easier for her.

Talked with DD(12) today about where we stand. She understands I've done everything I can. I told her it looked like divorce right around the corner. She's come a long way, and like me is ready for this to be over, one way or the other.

WW mentioned today she's dreading counseling next Wed. I told her I was too. She asked why, I said, this whole situation is painful, and having to discuss what happened in detail won't be nice. She said we could always cancel it. I didn't respond. I know the counselor is going to express WW needs to get off the fence, and quit jerking me around.

Not sure it's going to matter much, WW mentioned today she's considering the physical seperation like the counselor originally suggested. I said, I thought at this point that was only a pre-amble to divorce, but she thinks it would be good for her and me.

WW also indicated she still wants to go out with me on Date Night Friday. Before she left this past weekend, I planned for us to go to the horse track. I've never been, and I was going to go anyway. She further went on to suggest we take the girls to see Harry Potter on Sunday.

Oh, and here's another side note, WW actually said she thinks she's been sabotaging our efforts. Well, no duh. She thinks the last month is ruined. I said not entirely, we're still able to communicate without bashing each other, and we're able to get along. Both of those things took effort on both our parts to get to.

I just want to let out this primal scream at the top of my lungs.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

As long as WW has OM, she will not have feelings for you the way she should. That is the problem. I think it is almost time for you to go to Plan B. Otherwise you may lose your love for her.

Believer: I know, but I think it's coming down to that anyway. I'm waiting to see what's said in counseling next Wednesday. She's already said she's considering moving out because she thinks it would be better for both of us, and I told her I thought at this point, that's only leading to divorce.

I've been thinking about that. I'd really like to know how she thinks it would be better. What does she hope to gain? Insight on her decision? I don't know. I'm not sure a full blown Plan B would even help right now. Personally, I'm shocked I haven't kicked her to the curb. I don't deserve this. Nobody does.

RW,
So sorry to hear about WS move to the physical. That was the most painful post to read, especially considering the progress you had made recently. I guess your suspicions were well-founded. That she could come back and even talk about it is amazing.
I can believe she suggested bypassing counseling, it's a way for her to avoid being confronted with and accepting responsibility for her actions in front of a 3rd party. Don't let her out of it and make it easier on her.
I congratulate you on contacting a lawyer. I am aghast that they said the adultery is of no use. How is that possible? Oh well, what can you expect. I agree you shouldn't let her take the easy way out, you need to have professional representation or mediation to show what the final agreement is, so she can't come back later with claims otherwise (if it gets to that point, i mean). Her "physical separation" is just another means to remove the influence of your (and the kid's) presence, which causes her guilt which impedes her efforts to carry out further contact w/ OM (as recent events show how she behaves when she gets out of your sight).
Good luck, and I hope she comes to the right decision, whatever it is. And she needs to make her decision soon, rather than run you & the DDs over the coals any more. If she is just now waking up to the intensity of your love for her, is she also seeing the pain she's causing and the senseless charade she thinks she's carrying on? Hmmmmm.
Our prayers are with you.

It's been a few days, have a few things to add.

That night we talked, she expressed she was undecided.

I called WW and admitted to being in her online journal, and I asked her what was true, is she or is she not undecided? She said what we talked about that night after her post was true, she's undecided. Then she went on to tell me that that morning, she woke up and DD(3) was sleeping peacefully, the birds were singing, the coffee smelled wonderful, and she thought to herself, why would she want to throw everything into upheaval. I told her I wished I could believe anything she told me.

Surprise, surprise, she spent 2 hours writing me an 8 page letter detailing her undecisiveness. Obviously, I can put it all here, but I can give you the gist of it. She views her decision as being a one way street. If she decides to leave, there is no turning back, if she decides to stay, there is no turning back. If she leaves, and her feelings change, then she'll regret making that decision. If she stays, and her feelings don't change, then 2, 5, 10 years down the road, she's going to regret it and view it as her life was wasted. She went on to explain what she's looking for in life, and how she feels about me. She also went on to talk about how OM came to be in the picture, like she was justifying it.

She also admitted if she chose to stay, she would have to have NC with OM forever. I further acknowledged, I understood if that happened, that things wouldn't automatically be perfect again. I explained I understood she'd always feel someting for OM, but over time it would dull. I continued with, I didn't think things would be a bed of roses at first if she decided to stay, because there would be the seperation of her and OM. I didn't want to call it withdrawal or grieving, because she doesn't view it as an addiction. I told her when she first started talking to OM she already viewed me as being absent from her life, and that she didn't fall in love with him over night. I said, if she reversed that, and OM is absent, then talking to me, and working with me, could lead to love again.

I said, there are no guarantees in life, everything is a risk. I said, I'm obviously faced with a very similar choice, but I think staying and seeing if we fall in love again is worth it for us. I've decided to try the risk, and I told her she needs to do what she needs to do.

I had been planning date night this week for the last 2 weeks. We were going to go to the horse races. WW has a passion for horses, and I've developed one as well. I told her I was still going with or without her, and I told her she was more than welcome to still go if she wanted to. She said she did. Well, WW is sporting a new necklace from this weekend, it's OM's, and last night before we left, I requested she not wear it. Didn't need to go into any details or explain myself, but she took it off. Now, I could have requested she leave it home instead of not wearing it, but I decided if she took it in her pocket, wouldn't matter to me as long as I didn't have to look at it. So, I don't know if she left it at home or took it in her pocket, and don't really care.

OMG, the races were AWESOME! I even bet on a few of them, and won one of them. For a $2 bet, I got $6.20. It was $2.50 per person to get in, and the race program was $2. Was able to bet on a few of the races, and had an excellent time.

WW's barn manager, Charlie, does a lot at the horse track, and knows lots of people. He's sweet on one of the boarders at his barn, and she, Kelly, has a daughter. Charlie decided to show up to show us things, most people don't get to see. WW invited Kelly and her daughter to join us. Charlie took us around to the back corner of the track where the barns are, and we were standing next to the wall around the track. I could look down and see the sand on the track. This spot was incredible, the din of noise from the crowd was absent, and when the horses approached the corner, it was like rolling thunder reverberating around and through me.

Before we went to this, I realized this was one of those things WW was talking about in her letter, about the passion in life. I fully embraced the experience last night, and made sure I told her what a wonderful time I was having. I must have appeared like a little boy in a candy store.

Today is Girls Day out, not sure what they'll be doing, but I hope they have fun. Tonight is the Belmont Stakes, where a horse named Marty Jones, it's all over the news, has a chance at winning the Triple Crown. The Triple Crown is where 1 horse wins 3 major races: Kentucky Derby, Preakness Stakes, and the Belmont Stakes. If he wins, he'll be the richest racehorse in North America. For wining the Triple Crown, he'll get a $5 million bonus, plus the Belmont winnings of $600,000. At the track last night, we decided to watch this late this afternoon. Appearantly though, she has later plans to play an online version of scrabble with her best friend, best friend's married boyfriend, and OM. I'll proabably make myself a stiff drink, and go soak in my tub or something.

Sunday, we're taking the girls to see Harry Potter. I think we're having our lunch date on Monday, not sure yet, haven't really discussed it. Counseling is on Wednesday, and WW does NOT want to go, but said she will.

She's afraid the things I didn't say when I found out, will all be said at counseling. Mostly I think she's afraid of what the counselor will say. She feels, the counselor is going to judge her. I can't talk for the counselor, but she's supposed to remain unbiased and impartial. However, she's been lied to and deceived as well, so I've no idea what she will say, but I do know one thing, she agrees WW's decision can't wait till October like originally planned.

Things get better and better. More things to bring up. WW can't afford to move out on her own without filing for bankruptcy. I'm not sure what WW is doing, but she mentioned yesterday her mom called and wants to buy round trip tickets for her and the girls to come visit from July 8 to the 18th. WW asked what I thought of that, and I honestly told her, I'd much rather she went to her Mom's instead of best friends. WW went on to say, not like her mom would tolerate that anyway. WW further said, not like OM would fly to California from New York anyway.

WW said she told her mom she'd pay for 1 of the tickets. Well, I know round trip tickets between Illinois and California aren't cheap. I'm mentioning this, because, WW is not saving up money for a divorce or moving out. Because of that, I expressed I liked to believe we'd have a decision by then. I don't think she understood why I said that because she explained her mom thought of DD(12) as her granddaugther and always will even if we divorce. I would like to think so, but that wasn't what I was talking about, and didn't say anything else.

And here's my final kicker, when WW and I were talking on Tuesday night, the day she admitted to being with OM over Memorial Day weekend, she said something along the lines of not like I could have kicked her out or anything anyway, because both of our names are on the lease. I thought that was an odd thing to say, but didn't think anything else about it because I'd never actually thought about it. After our face to face lunch, she was afraid when she got home I'd try to kick her out, or I'd be gone with the girls. She was not expecting neither one of those events from happening. As a matter of fact, she didn't expect us to have the pleasant evening we had. WW does not understand why I haven't left her after all this, and said any other man would have been long gone. I told her how could I leave when I love her? Her response was how can you still love me? I said, because some how, I've managed to keep the hurt seperated from how I feel about her.

Now I hope it doesn't come down to this, but I realized our lease was only a 12 month lease, which rolled over into a month to month lease. There is nothing stopping me from signing a new lease with the landlords, one without her name on it.

I'm hoping at Wednesday's counseling session, the counselor can help me decide on when WW has to give her decision. Plan B will go into effect if WW does not provide her decsion by that date. That should affect WW's plan for the visit to her mom. I feel bad about that, for the girls. But I can not allow her to drag her feet any longer and subject me to this. OM doesn't even know about any of this undecisiveness. I don't even think her best friend knows. She's still telling them one thing and telling me another.

Wow, almost forgot something. Last year, best friend came to visit. At the last minute, I learned best friend's boyfriend was coming too. I didn't know then that he was married. I found out later that night, when the cops showed up at my door at 2 am, because his wife filed a missing person's report. Appearantly she found my address and phone number in his office, she had one of his coworkers check his office for anything. Well, she had a friend in the police department that contacted my local police and they came out to see if he was there and ok. Obviously, he was. Sad part is, best friend did exactly the same thing for WW this past Memorial Day weekend. To get to the point, best friend's boyfriend's wife, called boyfriend to get my name and phone number. Best friend called WW and told her. WW called me to tell me. Best friend is afraid of what I'd tell boyfriend's wife. I immediately said I don't want to get into the middle of that, I've got my own problems. I further explained as much as I dislike best friend right this moment, she has a very good reason to be concerned, because now, I can reach into her life. I'm torn, I like best friend's boyfriend, he really is a nice guy, in a really bad marriage. His wife is very abusive, I don't know all the details, but I feel sorry for him. I don't know what I would say if she called. I don't see how I could not be honest.

For the overall picture, I'm tired. It's time for WW to get off the fence once and for all, and to be honest, I've reached the point I really don't care which side it is. If she wants to go, ok, have fun. If she wants to stay, then I'll continue to give 110%. I do know one thing though, I will not be the first one to leave this marriage. I refuse to spend the rest of my life wondering if I did the right thing, or if there was something else I could have done.

I love you all, and I love who I've become in this process. Thank you all for your support and advice. I'll be glad to move onto a new forum, be that Divorced/Divorcing, Plan A/Plan B, or even In Recovery would be ok. Stay tuned.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Sounds like you are doing the right thing by not rushing anything. At some point soon you do need to go to Plan B. Your wife is cake-eating big time.

You will find Plan B very peaceful. Also you can get on with your life, without the constant tension of the rollercoaster.

Talked with WW today. I explained why I was still here, since she didn't understand because any other guy would have been gone by now. I told her because when I married her, I married her for better or for worse. I even said, and it doesn't get much worse than this. I told her, I'm not going to be the one to walk out of this marriage. I also said, if she decides to leave, then we need to stop living together. Meaning one of us will have to move out, and I know she can't afford the rent on this place. So she knows, it's not like it'll be ok, to keep on living with me. I refuse to keep living with her if she makes that decision, every day has been a nightmare as it is, as anyone who's read this thread will know.

I explained I realized how serious this decision is for her, due to the ramifications to everyone involved. And it's not something that can be decided over night, but at the same time, and she finished this sentence with, it can't linger.

Personally, I know she's leaning towards leaving, but I'm at the point I don't care which way she decides. If she leaves, fine. If she stays, I'll continue to give 110%.

She also admitted that she didn't know if she'd be able to completely break off all contact. I'll cross that bridge if she decides to stay.

Now for some lighter info, we took the girls to see Harry Potter today. From what I got to see of it, it was pretty good! DD(3) had to go pee every 15-20 minutes, so that was annoying. Not to mention, the little old lady that was sitting next to me wearing way too much perfume, and blowing her nose and snoring.

Plan to have lunch with WW tomorrow, no idea where I'm taking her yet. Counseling on Wednesday, told WW she didn't need to worry about anything I'd say, because I've already said everything to her that I need to say. She's worried about the Counselor judging her. I think she should be worried, especially since she lied and deceived the counselor as well. Should be interesting. One of the things I do intend to talk about with the counselor is how long I should wait to get an answer from WW. Nothing beyond the end of the month is acceptable.

Here's an interesting twist, WW was worried about me kicking her out, but the attorney she talked to told her as long as both of our names are on the lease, she can't be kicked out. Well, WW failed to realize when we signed our lease, it was a 12 month lease which rolled into a month to month. There is nothing stopping me from going next door to the landlords and signing a new lease, one without her name on it.

Here's the funny thing, she's mentioned this a few times, but she suggested we could just get a legal seperation since she never plans to get married again. Yeah, right, like I'd want to do that. Well, boys and girls, it looks like we're done, I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. It'll obviously be as soon as she gives her decision, especially since she's already said she's leaning the other way.

Talk to you all tomorrow night to let you know how Monday goes!

*see, I'm dealing with this much better than before! But, no, I'm not happy, just coping.*

[ June 12, 2004, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Picked WW up for lunch today, on the way there, she told me she emailed me with a copy of what she posted in her online journal. Figured, since she sent it to me, I'd share with all my readers. Only thing changed, are names to protect the innocent.

10:06 am - and...it's Monday again
Not a bad weekend at all. Friday night we went to the Thoroughbred track with the barn manager and his girl and her daughter. We had a lot of fun, BS made some bets and won $6, but that's it. I kept picking losing horses! Guess if I bet on something other than silk colors and names, I might actually choose a winner every now and then!
I took the girls to Forest Park in St. Louis on Saturday, we had a picnic in the park, chased ducks, did some walking, played on the playground and rode the ferris wheel. I thought for sure the ferris wheel would be expensive, but it was only $3 for the three of us. DD(3)was SO excited about it, and she was making me nervous because she kept wanting to stand up in the car and peer over the edge! GAH! Or she'd lean really close to the little door to peer out the cracks. Ferris wheels have never, ever made me nervous before, but I sure was nervous riding it with my three-year-old. It's amazing how your kids makes you change your perspective of things. Sunday I went riding. Star was kinda crappy, but we had a quick lesson in remembering our manners and it was all good again. She just brain farts every now and then, her Thoroughbred brain cell kicks into high gear and she gets all flaky and hyper. We took the girls to see Harry Potter Sunday afternoon. Excellent movie. It's the first Harry Potter movie I didn't fall asleep halfway through, so that says something. DD(3)didn't much care for having to sit for 2 and a half hours in the theater and she must have had to use the bathroom at least five times. I think she's good for hour and a half movies at this age, the longer ones are just pushing her ability to sit still and pay attention.
BS and I had a long talk yesterday about lots of stuff. He wants me to make a decision about whether I'm going to continue working on the marriage or not. I understand completely him not liking being in limbo, I don't like the feeling much myself, but I'm so worried I'm going to make the wrong decision. I know that staying in a marriage for the kids isn't the best thing to do, but sometimes I think it would be the best thing to do, for them. I don't know if I'd be happy staying married, sometimes I think I would be able to live with it, sometimes I know I wouldn't be happy for very long. Yeah, things aren't bad right now, we are communicating better than we ever have and we are getting along better than we ever have, but I still can't stand to have him touch me and the thought of him moving back into my bedroom bothers me. I know he'd want to move back into my bedroom if I decide to continue trying to make the marriage work, and I don't want that. Yesterday he talked to my mom, and told her everything that has been going on. She told him it sounds like I'm behaving like my dads did. I didn't much care for that comparison at all. I won't abandon my kids, like my dad did. My mom also keeps telling me that it is my obligation to keep as stable an environment as possible for my girls, and if that means that I have to sacrifice my happiness for their mental stability, then that's what I have to do. She constantly reminds me that BS is a good provider and doesn't drink or beat us, and that should be good enough for anyone. But I also want to be happy, and I just don't know if staying with BS would be fulfilling and happy. Yeah, I'd be comfortable, financially, but is that worth giving up a life of happiness for, financial security and my girls' emotional stability? He seems to think that I can be happy, if I gave him an honest chance, instead of just half a chance. I've been trying to give him a chance, I've even been trying to find the smallest good thing to latch onto to try to love him again, and I haven't been able to find it. And the decisions I have to make absolutely must be based on whether or not I think I can be happy staying where I am. Nothing else must come into consideration at all. That's not easy to do. Easy to say, hard to actually do. Sigh. I think of all the things I could lose, and then all the things I could gain. I could lose my comfort, my horse, my girls, my vehicle. I could gain my freedom, my happiness, a sense of "self" that I've lost. How do you make this kind of decision? I worry about stupid things too, like how my mom will react if I tell her that I just can't make the marriage work anymore. I know she'll say I'm being selfish, because my girls' happiness should always come above my own happiness. I hate it when my mom is disappointed in me, I've always tried so hard for her to be proud of me, and this would just be one more thing that would let her down. I've spent most of my life letting her down, so this wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary.

Thoughts? Opinions?

I think its about time for Plan B. Your wife has the world by the tail, and can't appreciate it. She needs to find out what life is like without all the nice things she has become accustomed to.

Sheesh - all she can find good about you is you don't beat her?????? It's all about her right now.

I agree with Believer. She's focused on the wrong things.

Well, I would love to Plan B, but I can't afford to move out, can't afford a divorce. All I know, is I'm getting tired of this living nightmare. She contends she hasn't felt anything for me in a long time, well, news flash, this was all dumped on me only 3 months ago. Not like I can turn off my emotions like a light switch.

Boggles my mind she would even consider staying just for the kids. That's no way to live. I can't/won't live that way. I made it perfectly clear, I do not want her staying just for the kids, I only want her staying if she's going to work on the marriage. After reading everthing I've read, and listened to what she's said, she doesn't want to be in love with me. I'm a conveinence, and I won't tolerate it. If she decides to stay, and she won't have NC with OM, then I'll be forced to make a decision. The only way I can move out is if I quit paying for her car and insurance, that will force her to file bankruptcy because she can't survive on her own with the bills she has. Heck, it's in her words a few posts up.

Here's the most surprising thing, she's going to counseling with me today. I was going to go with or without her for my own sanity. Imagine my surprise.

I'll be honest, I have no idea why she sent me a copy of her online journal post, but it hurts my feelings. She can't stand my touch, but she says I'm a good looking guy, and I don't disgust her or revolt her. So what gives?

Then of course there's that whole sleeping next to me thing, before I read the email with the copy of her post, she told me it was because I make her hot and sweaty, and I snore. I confronted her about that, and she got angry. Turns out, I'm not supposed to question why it appears as 2 different things. I accused her of lying to me, or lying to them. Well, took some time, but it turns it she wasn't lying, just not telling me the whole thing, which we all know omission of information is still a lie. From what I can understand, she didn't want to hurt my feelings at lunch, or didn't want to face that at lunch, but it's all true, I'm just getting bits and pieces here and there.

Here's the way it is, she says she's human, and therefore needs to be touched, which is why she hasn't wanted me to stop, but wants it as little as possible. She'd rather be touched by and sleep next to OM. Whatever. Not to mention, she said she feels any touch I make is in her opinion some sort of sexual advance.

Somebody, please, wake me up from this nightmare!

[ June 12, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Sorry you are hurting. You are a good looking guy. The only problem is that your wife is infatuated with OM. And as long as that is the case, she will have no feelings for you.

Right now she has the best of both worlds. That is why Plan B would be good for your marriage, and YOU. Let us know how the counseling goes.

Well, I have reason to believe she's going to call it quits at counseling today. Obviously, I won't know until I get there.

I feel like the convicted felon walking down death row. I don't think the Governor is going to call...

Dead man walking? I think not... as long as she gets off the fence, you can start building your life again, without being her hostage. Although painful, it lets you start on a constructive path where you can concentrate on you and your DDs.

Good luck, whichever way it turns. I hope the best for you & yours

Hey! Any update?

Well, there have been some interesting developments. I'm not going to go into all the details right this moment. The most recent surprising developments were only about an hour ago. You know me, long winded, and love to stick to the details.

I won't leave you all hanging, I'll give you some details. You know I went to counseling today expecting her to say it's quits.

Well, that's what she was going to do. I'm not sure what made her change her mind though. She went to the barn to ride her horse, and was on the phone before she got out of the driveway.

I figured she was on the phone with best friend or OM. She talked to best friend extensively appearantly.

When she got home, she told me this: I don't want to spend the rest of my life wondering if I gave this an honest chance or not. I'm going to tell OM that I don't want contact for awhile. I'm not going to set a time frame for awhile because that puts to much pressure on the situation, but it's not going to be just 1 or 2 weeks.

So, she's going to stop talking to OM and she's going to really focus on us. I have my doubts...

We both agreed there is no guarantee that she'll develop any feelings for me, but at least we'll both know we give it another chance.

I was stunned, never expected that especially after what I was expecting at counseling, and I'll save all that for my next post.

[ June 12, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Ok, here goes...

As you know, I had my reasons for believing we were done yesterday, and that she'd say as much at counseling. We were sitting in the waiting room, and WW mentioned she'd avoided talking to everyone yesterday, to include best friend and OM. This in itself was surprising to me, but made me think she was possibly trying to think clearly about the situation before following through with her decision. She appearantly thought I expected an answer at counseling even though I said before I only intended to ask the counselor's opinion.

Counseling started off with us talking about Memorial Day weekend and how we were getting along since then. It's not been easy. I expressed I wasn't as mad about what happened, as I was mad at the premeditation. WW maintains she lost those loving feelings for me long before OM. Which is why she's been saying all along he's not the cause of my problems. Of course, now that he's in the picture, he is a problem. WW also expressed trust was an issue. The counselor said that was my problem to deal with. I said, if I was willing to keep working on our relationship, then I was willing to work on trust. Of course, there's another issue now, she expressed being mad and resentful that I wasn't the way I am now all along. She even asked the counselor if that could be preventing her from feeling anything positive about me. The counselor told her yes, she's going to have to get over it if she wants herself to be receptive to any growing feelings of love. The counselor also agreed with me when I said, she won't know she's feeling anything for me until one day, BAM, she'll miss me when I'm gone somewhere.

I'm not sure I can recant everything said, but I'll try my best to keep to the main points. The counselor said it was normal for relationships to become complacent, and it takes a lot of hard work to keep things alive. She also said, some recover, and some don't, it all depends on how much of an effort is made by the couple. But that's only if it's 2 people involved, when you involve other people things rapidly deteriorate beyond the point of no return.

I spoke up and said, I was more than willing to continue giving 110% if she wanted to give us a real chance, one not involving anyone else. I said when she told the counselor and me they were just friends she was lying, and that only set us up for failure. I said, in the right environment, meaning me being the way I am now, and time anything could happen. And it's that possibility I'm clinging to. The counselor agreed, there are no guarantees in life, and that our relationship is only what we make of it. The counselor told WW she was going to have to take a chance and go out on a limb.

It was about this point, WW asked what would we do if we did this and found out later it's just not going to happen. I said, then I'll know we gave it our best shot, and we can walk away from this better than we can right now. I asked the counselor based on the serious nature of the choice WW has to make, I don't want to rush her into making one, but at the same time, we all know it's not something that can wait. The counselor didn't answer the question. Wasn't long after this we scheduled another counseling session for another 2 weeks.

At this point, I'm thinking to myself, wtf? Already, things I expected to happen didn't, and things I didn't expect to happen did. Meaning, she didn't say it was over, and we had another counseling session. I was sure this was to be the last.

WW went to her room when she got home. She was reading a book, this would be the third day in a row. She didn't stay in there long, 30 or 45 minutes. We made barbeque chicken leg quarters for dinner. After dinner she went to the barn, and was on the phone before the car ever left the driveway. I knew after the way counseling went today, she was really at odds with something, and was calling best friend or OM. I figured more than likely it was best friend. Think she got home around 9:30 or so.

This is when things really began to get interesting. I went outside for a smoke, and wasn't too long before she joined me. She asked me what I thought of counseling. I told her I went in there fully expecting her to say it was over. She said that's what she was going to do. I asked why she didn't. She said that was a good question. She asked me if I could continue living this way, the way we are now. I thought about it a minute, and responded we both need happiness, and the only way I could do it is if we were making an effort to see if we could get back what was lost. And if we couldn't, then at least we could both walk away knowing we did everything there was to be done. She then started telling me she didn't want to spend the rest of her life not knowing if things could have been different by giving an honest chance. This is the point at which she said she was going to let OM know she wanted to break off all contact for awhile while we figure this out. I asked how long awhile was, and she said she didn't want to put a time frame on it because that would put pressure on the situation. Basically it boils down to awhile could be indefinitely, or as short as a month.

I'm completely stunned at this point, as you all know, it was the last thing I was expecting. Of course, trust is an issue. WW is concerned about being questioned all the time like a child. Obviously, feeling that way isn't going to help. The only thing I can think of is letting her give me some ideas on what she thinks she can do to help with my trust issue. Of course, there is the possibility this is all just a ploy to buy more time. Oh, and another thing, I said if she was going to give this an honest chance, she needed to stop wearing his necklace. She asked if it bothered me. I said yes it does.

Well, I think that's as close as I can get to yesterday's events. I'm expecting her to let me know at some point today that OM was advised of the situation, and from what WW has said, he has already said he'd back off if that's what she wanted. I'm assuming, this will probably take place over a phone call from work. I suppose I could ask for some sort of verification.

Ok, now you all have all the facts. I don't know what to do at this point. If she's sincere, what can I do to get back that loving feeling? Do I move to the Plan A/Plan B forum? Do I move to the recovering forum? I didn't expect this. Think I need to get the Fall in Love/Stay in Love book, and maybe have her read it with me. Of course, I've got Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs.

I think I'm still in shocked stunned disbelief. If she's jerking me around....GRRRRRR.

So the governor did call! Great news. I would continue to do what you have been doing. Don't expect too much, and you won't be disappointed. Try to spend time doing some fun things together.

It's hard to keep doing what I'm doing. How do you express your love, affection, and everything else to someone who isn't receptive?

I can do those things, but every rejection just pushes me away. I don't expect much, except a legitimate chance.

She's going to have to prove to me in some way that she told him NC, and then she's going to need to show me that it stays in effect. She's already admitted that's going to be the hard part.

I know, one day at a time. Sigh. I'm thinking I need to change forums, where do I go? Plan A/Plan B are for getting rid of OP. I think we've done that. Can't say recovering, because there is still no committmant to stay, only an opportunity to see if something can happen.

Try general questions - lots of traffic there.

I think I'll hang out here for awhile, it's been my home for the last 3 months.

Oh, by the way, got an email from WW saying she told him that they can no longer be in contact.

Then she asked if I had any comment, I basically said I understood how hard this is going to be for her, and I asked how she was going to avoid contact since he's so deeply ingrained in her online world. I told her I'd be here for her if she'd let me.

She said she did it over the phone, since she's not heartless, uh huh, and she didn't handle it well at all, and he handled it okan and understood. She further said she won't call him or respond to anything posted on Deviantart website, and she won't respond to any of his comments on her online journal, I of course still don't have access to this journal. He further said he'd back away and let her do what she needed to do. As far as chatting is concerned she said she wouldn't use AIM, and she'd just use Yahoo if she wants to talk to Jane.

Guess we'll see how this goes, keep ya'll posted.

Well, from the looks of it, she's not planning on having direct contact with him, however she refuses to remove his access to her online journal, etc. She won't call him, or email him, or chat with him. BUT, they can pass messages back and forth verbally through WW's friends.

I'm better understanding what she's doing here. She's setting us up for failure again. She thinks by doing this she can prove that it will never work, and by not completely removing him from her life, she's right. She's not doing this to see if we can every be anything more, she's doing it to prove it won't.

Knowing this, I won't say anything to her about it, not going to use spyware, just going to start saving my money for the inevitable. I'll try and bring some of this up in counseling, but I'm not sure it'll be worth it. I was prepared for it to be over at counseling on Wednesday, so I'm still mentally prepared, but my chest seems to still be arguing. I won't lie, I still love her, but I'm not sure she even realizes what she's doing. All I know, we're set up for failure, again.

[ June 12, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Any possibility that she would post here?

I seriously doubt it, why do you ask?

Since she enjoys being online, I thought she might be interested. I think she needs to hear things from someone besides you.

I agree, but I'm not sure she'd want to subject herself to this environment. She doesn't like being judged. I could mention it, but I'm not sure anything will happen. We'll see.

Talked with WW, she's beginning to start withdrawel I think. I don't know how to handle what she's going through. I want to comfort her, but at the same time I feel she resents me for her deciding to do this.

I'm guessing I just give her space, and try to be as understanding as I can, but I can't help feeling guilty. I mean, she'd still be happy with OM at the moment if she hadn't felt like I forced her to do this.

My big question though, is the partial NC that she's initiated going to be enough? Somehow, I don't think so. As long as he's there, the temptation will be too great. I have no idea how she's going to handle this. I feel sorry for her, really I do.

We're taking the kids to a rodeo tonight, alone time with me is very out of the question at the moment. She purposely came home late last night, and I'm not sure we're going to have much of a Family Day on Sunday. I think I'll offer to go out alone and do something with the kids. Wouldn't be surprised if the first thing she did was jump on the freaking phone. But, I can't jump to those conclusions, because I have to work on my trust as well. Even though, I have my doubts about us because of her approach to this, I need to work on my trust, or I'll never be able to trust any other woman. It's just too much hurt in so short of a time. I'll try to keep you all posted, but I refuse to get online unless she is, so if she doesn't get online, neither will I. Could be Monday or Tuesday before I'm back.

Take care.

RW,
just one question. what are you going to do if you find out that she's lying? lying about no contact, lying about trying to work on the marriage? just plain lying. i mean you have to consider that this is at least a possibility! after all recent events don't exactly provide a testimony to her integrity in these matters. and the way you make it sound...staying in the hpouse for the time being is something that she wants.
coach

RW: Couple of comments for you.

First, I know you can't control her. But if she's not playing by the rules then it is time to reup with the landlord under your name only and out she goes, though I wouldn't tell her that just yet. I think I should have actually put this item last after the next two items.

Secondly, her form of NC is not truly No Contact. You need to pull out the old SAA books or get a sample letter here online and tell her that her form of NC is unacceptable and that she must send OM this letter (as she revises it to her/your situation and get your approval). She could email it to OM, but it has to be full NC with OM. If she doesn't put a time frame on it, then that may mean when she does break NC, then she's basically giving up, but you cross that bridge at that time. What does she say about any of the Harley books? Has she read any? From what I've read of your posts, it seems she wants to do what she wants to do. Though her recent actions of giving it one last chance is a good sign, but with the betrayal issue it throws up red flags as wanting to stall for time. And thus that is why she is keeping that little door open to at least communicate indirectly to OM.

Thirdly, last week, the W and I were seriously struggling. So much to the point, that I started LB'ing big time last Friday night. Just trying to stir up a fight (we hardly ever fight as we are both conflict avoiders). I'm not really sure how it happened, but somehow my W decided to start posting here (I had invited her here and she had been reading my posts, so that must have had something to do with it). But anyhow, she posted to one of my threads and I figured out it was her on the 2nd post. Anyway, long story short, it felt like the dam broke and it reopened our communication. Plus, she got a lot of good feed back from other board members in the process. It definitely wasn't easy. I'm sure you've felt that in your own sitch. Good luck buddy!

Well, haven't mentioned to WW about coming here yet. I'll be honest, I'd be real surprised if she did.

It's possible she's trying to make more time, but I've reason to believe she's doing this for another reason. I'm not sure how her NC is coming, I've no way to know, and it's only been a couple of days. The reason I think she's doing this is to prove to herself that she CAN'T fall in love with me again vs. doing this to see if she CAN. I also think she wants to see if OM will still be waiting for her after this is all said and done.

Right this moment, I'm seeing her dealing with some of the withdrawal symtoms, by the way she hates the comparsion of what she feels for OM as an addiction. I think while those are still strong, and there is no way of knowing if they'll ever abate, she'll not feel anything positive about me. Let me explain.

We went to the rodeo last night with the kids. The distance was VERY appearant. We found a place to sit on the bleachers, and initially she placed DD(3) between us. Kinda expected that. But you know 3 year olds, never in one place for very long. The space between her and I remained for awhile. At one point, she looked down at the space, and surprisingly, scooted closer to me. I don't know why.

All I know, is there can never be anything between us as long as OM is still in the picture, and he still us, oh, she may not be talking directly to him, but he's still in the picture. Not to mention, she come home wearing his necklace, but she did take it off before going to the rodeo and put on a different one. At least she's being considerate enough in that respect.

Right now, I'm not really expecting a whole lot. I can't. But if she's really sincere about knowing for sure, this could take months. At least the girls have their mom for the moment.

Honestly, I don't know why she's doing this. She set this up for failure, again. I see it, and I know she won't listen to me. I'm surprised she even listens to the counselor.

Sometimes I think, after everything she's demonstrated she's capable of, do I really need that in my life? If she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, sincerely, I'm sure I could deal with it, but now, at this point, the way she's approaching this, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing for her to decide to just go.

Of course, I then think it could get better. I think I've seen all the bad things from her, out of her desperation. I understand she wants her whole life to feel like that first year, but no relationship stays that way. She will spend the rest of her life bouncing from relationship to relationship. How long would she be happy with OM before she starts looking for greener pastures.

Sigh, all I know is I'm going to give her time to deal with whatever demons she's battling with. All I can do is try and be here for her. I tell her I love her, and I've done my best not to touch her.

Bottom line is, I said for better or for worse. I'm seeing the worst, and I'm sticking to my committment. I don't control her, if she stays, she stays, if she goes, she goes. Either way, I'll survive. One thing still remains, I love her.

WW called me this morning. I admitted to her about what I felt last night at the rodeo. I told her I understood how she felt, and what she was going through. She asked how I could possibly know that. I responded with how I felt going into counseling Wednesday believing it was over, and how I would feel if she walked out the door.

I said I realized my touch was the last thing she wants, and that the only thing I could do was tell her I love her, and that I'm here for her.

I told her about you guys asking if she'd come here and post. She asked why? So, I told her that people from both sides of a relationship post here and the people here may or may not have something to say that could help her one way or the other.

I'll be honest, I'm sure she'll be upset if she reads this thread, she won't like things detailed here. She doesn't like being judged, I think it's one of her fears. Since counseling on Wednesday, and what I was prepared for, I'm not sure anything in this thread really matters anymore.

We're both guilty of doing things we felt justified in doing, regardless of how it would make the other person feel. I'm sitting back right now, and I'm watching things happen the way they're going to happen. There is nothing else I can do.

I told her I'd give her the link here if she wants to come here, it's possible she remembers the site and can find her own way here, I don't know. I may give her the link anyway, but I'm afraid of her best friend and OM coming here as well. I've put all my personal emotions on here, and I don't think they have a right to know those things. Maybe if WW read this, she might better understand me and where I'm coming from. This is tearing me up, and I wish I had someone willing to console me in my time of need, but I'll suck it up and be here for her, if she'll take me.

I would tell her that your online friends here say that her partial NC plan will never work. She won't like it, but needs to be called on her "plan to save the marriage".

I'll email her the link, and if she comes, she comes. I'm not going directly home after work, going to a friends house to work on my brakes.

WW went grocery shopping, and I called her to let her know for sure I was doing my brakes this afternoon. Told her I'd be home by 8pm or so. My friend works the night shift and has to be at work by 11pm.

Here's to hoping for a good weekend.

RW,
A few posts ago you said:
"Talked with WW, she's beginning to start withdrawel I think. I don't know how to handle what she's going through. I want to comfort her, but at the same time I feel she resents me for her deciding to do this.
I'm guessing I just give her space, and try to be as understanding as I can, but I can't help feeling guilty. I mean, she'd still be happy with OM at the moment if she hadn't felt like I forced her to do this."

I hope you're not feeling you "forced her to do this"... her actions and deceit forced her to do this. Did she really think she could carry on indefinitely, living off of your pain while enjoying the OM contact?

Be strong, and hang on. We'll be here for ya, no matter what happens.

Well, it's been a long weekend. Talked to WW Saturday night, about where we are with this whole situation. Started off, by asking what we're doing and why? She says she's doing this for the same reason I am, to see if we can make things work for the kids. I told her there was one obvious difference, and that's I still love her.

Appearantly, she's still holding on to a lot of anger for the last few years, add to that she's angry I'm now they way she feels I should have been all along. There is still another item to add in there. Turns out this NC she's doing isn't because she wanted too, but because I asked her too. So I'm getting the anger and resentment for that too. I did point out during this conversation that she's been wearing OM's necklace every day, and I couldn't see how that was helping anything. She asked if I was saying the steps she's taken towards NC weren't good enough? I said, basically no, but anything is better than nothing, but if she's wearing his necklace every day, all she's doing is clinging to him everyday. Surprisingly enough, she didn't put it on Sunday, or yesterday. I'm not sure if she made that choice because I mentioned it, or if what I said made sense.

The problem is she didn't give up OM because it's the right thing to do, but because I asked her too. So she's done this for the wrong reason, and I'm not sure how that will affect things.

Here's another kicker, my brother suggested we try role reversal, that way we would get some sort of indication how we perceive each other. It's a great idea, and one our counselor has suggested, but haven't gotten around too yet due to the um, uh, recent developments.

My sister-n-law also pointed out something. For WW to be so angry at me for so long, can only be because she still has feelings for me. She said, people don't hold onto anger like that for someone they don't have feelings for.

Whatever the case is, IF she's serious about honestly trying to see if we can make this work, then she's going to have to put all the anger aside, and get over OM. Otherwise, there will never be anything.

Here's something that's got me stunned, WW came down to my room last night. That was completely unexpected, I've made no sexual advances at all. I thought for sure, if she's really maintaining NC with OM, that I'd be the last person she would want for a long time.

She thinks I'm still using spyware. I pointed out Memorial Day weekend when I was suspicious I thought of using it, but when she told the truth Tuesday, I said what was the point? I further said, I was expecting her to call it quits at last counseling, once again, what would be the point of using spyware? And as far as right now is concerned, she's not willing to give me anything to prove whether or not she's maintaining NC with OM. I can't make her give me anything, so I have to assume, she's communicating with him still. It's not on me at the moment, right now it's all about whether or not she can even be honest with herself.

I look at it this way, I accepted she was leaving, but will still work things out. If she doesn't do what she said, it's still not my fault.

Oh, she's working on resumes again. I think that's good for her, but I don't think I figure too much into any of that right now, if ever. But I refuse to relocate anywhere without there being an US, and at this moment, we all know what that would require. Which I don't see happening right now.

Counseling is going to take forever to get here, I leave you all with a song that touches me every time I hear it. This song says it all:

Nickleback: "Someday"
How the hell did we wind up like this
Why weren't we able
To see the signs that we missed
And try to turn the tables

I wish you'd unclench your fists
And unpack your suitcase
Lately there's been too much of this
Dont think its too late

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when

Well i hoped that since we're here anyway
We could end up saying
Things we've always needed to say
So we could end up staying
Now the story's played out like this
Just like a paperback novel
Lets rewrite an ending that fits
Instead of a hollywood horror

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)

[Solo]

How the hell did we wind up like this
Why weren't we able
To see the signs that we missed
And try to turn the tables
Now the story's played out like this
Just like a paperback novel
Lets rewrite an ending that fits
Instead of a hollywood horror

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
I know you're wondering when

Keep on keeping on. Your wife is still mixed up. But she is trying in her own way. Don't give up.

Well, I messed up yesterday. Sent some links to some Dr. Phil articles to WW. I found them interesting and thought she might as well. I was wrong. She took it as if I was throwing her faults in her face and trying to make her feel guilty. Her response was to send me a link on stalking. Legally, it's not stalking. However, following her around online, is stalking, and yes, I did feel guilty. But I believe in a situation like this there has to be a system of checks and balances established. I do know she's been in contact with OM.

Talked to her mom last night, and her mom said she's always had an honesty issue. I guess being in this situation merely made it more obvious. Her mom bought 3 round trip tickets for WW and the girls to visit her in California from July 9th to the 18th. WW seems to think that time away from home will be healing, only I don't know in which way. I'm just tired of this. If she wants to leave, ok fine. If she wants to stay, ok fine, I'll give 100%. Just make a decision already.

Only thing I can do now is just back off completely and wait for counseling next week.

WW took a half day off yesterday, her horse was getting new horse shoes put on.

She picked up DD(12) and they did a little shopping. They bought some flowers for the flower beds, then needed more color, and they got Father's Day stuff.

Appearantly I'm getting something messy, no idea what it could be. WW suggested whatever it is, and DD(12) got to pick it out. I'm surprised WW had any part of it.

When I got home, they were working on planting the new flowers, and then WW and I washed the dogs. Had a couple of mixed drinks, Vanilla Vodka with Vanilla Coke, YUM! Here's a big surprise, WW fell asleep on the couch around 8pm. Guess that's what happens when you stay up until 1:30am the previous night, I'm sure the alcohol had something to do with that too.

OM's necklace is no longer on the bedside table, but WW wasn't wearing it either. I'm thinking she's making an effort to keep it with her, but not wearing it in front of me. Well, some consideration I suppose.

I'm ready for Plan B, but waiting for the right moment to implement it. Thought about bringing it up at counseling next week, that's not out of the question yet, but I'm not sure I want to get into that before WW and DD's go to California. Our counselor originally wanted us to do that, but financially difficult. WW brought it up after her Memorial Day escapade. Sigh, just realized, Memorial Day has been forever memorialized as a bad day for me.

I'm starting to accept this is over with no positive resolution, and maybe I'm the one that just needs to do something to preserve my sanity. Maybe the 9 days in California with her mom might make a difference. I hate the idea of having to do this even another day, let alone another month. I feel all I'm getting from WW is lip service because she's afraid I'll handle our divorce the way I handled my first one, which she was around for, and she knows how bad it can be. So I can't help but feel she's being deceptive.

I guess maybe if she was to give me some legitimate proof that this marriage means something, instead of accusing me of stalking her, it might make a difference. As of now, I feel the only reason she's not gone is because of the kids, and the only reason she's even toying with the idea of staying is the kids.

These basic facts remain:
1) There can be no positive work on our relationship until OM is 100% out of the picture.
2) There can be no positive work on our relationship until she lets all her anger go.

All I keep hearing from her is, she can't force herself to love me. And I maintain, and she won't be able to until those 2 facts listed above are resolved.

All in all, last night was ok. As long as they continue to be ok, I'll survive.

Last night, WW asked me to stop pressuring her for the "answer". She said all it does is push her away. She also said right now she doesn't want to leave. I'm not sure if that means she intends to leave, but not yet, or if it means she's still undecided. She said if I can do this, then in a couple of months we can evaluate where we are. Personally, I think it's a waste of time, because I still maintain she won't be able to feel anything for me until she doesn't feel anything for him, and that will take months of 100% NO CONTACT.

She further said she felt successful about not having contact with OM even though she knows I know she's been in contact. I just wonder what she's comparing successful too, considering my definition of successful is NO CONTACT AT ALL.

I asked her, just to make sure I understood what she was asking, if she wants me to quit asking for an answer, and I wasn't sure if "pretend" was a good word to use or not, but if she wanted me to pretend everything was fine. And she said yes.

I said, "ok". and she asked if that was a problem, and I responded with I said ok. With them going to California next month I don't want to make any waves. We have counseling next week, so I'm extremely interested in what the counselor is going to say about everything since last week's counseling.

How can I possibly "pretend" everything is ok, when I'm still sleeping downstairs, and she's not maintaining the NC SHE said she was going to do.

On a side note, I think we're going out tonight, I asked her if she wanted to go out with me, and she asked what I had in mind. I suggested we go to a coffee shop or something and pretend we're strangers meeting for the first time. The whole concept is very interesting to me, and I think it's got her curiosity up as well.

Just read your whole thread and it sounds like you are doing the right things!
The one thing I would stop doing is asking questions like "Are you only staying here because of the kids?" At this point, it may be the only reason she is. But so what. I know you want her to be here because she loves you and wants you. But you have to start with baby steps, and it seems like you have. Even if she says she is just staying for the kids, it is a way for her to "save face" a bit...you could just say "I am glad you are, because the girls and I have a more wonderful life with you fully in it" or something. Her love bank from you was deep in the red, so you have to keep filling it where she will let you. And remember she is in withdrawal from you, so she may go thru the state of conflict (or be in it) before she gets back into the state of intimacy. I think you are being somewhat firm about getting the OM out of her life...so keep that up. I still am not sure that everything in the OM's life is what she says it is...probably because the OM is lying. Other's have told you to contact the OM's wife...keep that in mind if you need to.

Also, keep watching the Love Busting. Looks like you are doing well, but I have read story after story where someone is not patient with the WS and lovebusts up a storm and undoes any rebuilding they have done.

Another thing to possibly try is to tell her you just want to give her something to think about.
Tell her the story of her and you with the roles reversed.
Tell her to think of a man she loves (don't ask her who that is!). Imagine that he has started emailing another woman. But he says he is just friends with her. He gets a new cellphone and talks with her everyday. He chats on-line with her. But he says they are just friends. She asks him to stop. But they are just friends!
He says he is going on a camping trip w/ his buddies. But he sees her and has sex with her.
She asks him to stop contacting her. But he won't. He says he will try to work on the relationship, but wears jewelry she gave him.
Asks her if she thinks that their relationship will be successful if he doesn't stop interacting with that other woman.

I have no way of getting any more info about OM other than what I have.

WW decided she didn't want to go out last night, and we could play scrabble instead. I thought that would be cool and agreed. When she went to the barn to clean her horse's stall, she discovered there was a riding clinic in progress. She called and said she was going to stay for awhile and watch.

She came home around 10pm. I was outside smoking and talking to DD(12) when she came home. DD(12) ran down to her car and when WW opened the door was scared when DD(12) materialized in front of her. That was funny.

We talked for about 15 minutes outside, and then went to my room, it was 10:20pm by this time. The Others was on TNT and I watched the end of it. At 11pm, I went out for another smoke, WW was on the computer chatting, doesn't matter with who. I went back in, and went to bed.

I realized, I don't have to tell anyone how I felt about her deciding not to go out, but then deciding to stay at the barn to watch the riding clinic. Everyone I have talked to about it so far, completely understood without me ever having to say anything.

WW told me last night she's off on Monday because she has to work next Saturday. Now I know, she can take her day off any day she wants too, so I don't know why she chose Monday. Maybe she did it because I have every Monday off, I don't know. I guess it doesn't really matter much, I'm sure she'll do her best to spend as much of it as possible at the barn. Seems Work or the barn are preferable than being home with her family.

Counseling is on Wednesday, I'll make sure to tell the Counselor about the events after last counseling, her asking me to stop pressuring for "the answer" and pretending everything is normal, and what she did last night. I'll also tell WW, "I'm glad you're still here, because the girls and I have a more wonderful life with you fully in it" as suggested by wannabophim.

My gut tells me she's trying to buy time, even though she acts like she's trying. To be honest, I don't see this as trying. Trying would be 100% NC.

After the stalking link she sent me, I don't ask her about anything she's done or is going to do, unless she volunteers the information first. Personally, I don't think a husband and wife should be that way. I wish I knew what she's doing and why. I mean, if she's just buying time, be honest about it. I think she's afraid I'll make her move out before she's ready. I wouldn't do that because of the kids. I'd rather know and be able to accept she's leaving, instead of her letting me feel there's hope. The sad part is, I don't know if she really is trying and this is the best she can do, or if she is just trying to buy time.

She says pressuring her for "the answer" pushes her away, but she fails to realize as long as OM is in the picture, all she's doing is pushing me away.

All I need to do is make it through July 18th, that's when WW and girls get back from California. I'm going to do my best to wait and see if things are any different. If not, then it'll be time for Plan B.

Once again, still hoping for a good weekend, especially since it's Father's Day.

Well, I'm almost entirely convinced she's trying to drag this out until she has a better job where she can afford to move out without having to file bankruptcy.

See, she doesn't understand that I don't want to kick her out, I just want her to be honest. I think she's afraid if I know she's going to leave anyway that I'll kick her out. So I think she's stringing me along to prevent that.

If she told me she has no intention of staying and is just waiting for a time that's good for her, then I could accept that much better than having false hope until she says she's leaving. I would have time to adjust and we could go our seperate ways amicably. If she's stringing me along then she's just being cruel.

Here's another interesting little tidbit, remember when I got my anti-anxiety pills? Well, I got 30 in the bottle, and the other day WW mentioned something about she's been taking them. Well, today I counted them, there are 27 still in the bottle, and I know I took 3 of them. Why did she lie?

I'm thinking she's got a compulsive lying problem. One more thing to bring up in counseling.

I'm still undecided whether or not to mention my gut feeling that she's stringing me along so I don't kick her out before she's ready to leave. Personally, I'd never do that, simply because I feel the kids need to have us both around until such a time as it's no longer possible.

Happy Father's Day! I know it will be a bittersweet day for you, but hope you can enjoy it.

I would not worry too much about why your wife is still there. She probably doesn't even know.

I watched a documentary about sex addicts last night (not that your wife is one), and it was quite interesting. Mainly these people get their high off all the planning, thinking about OP, and that sort of thing, NOT the sex part.

They said that the problem is caused by not enough affection in childhood.

Wow, I wrote a long post, but my browser screwed up. Guess I'll just have to summarize.

Believer, I'm not surprised in the least about that show you saw, I guess that's part of the fog as well.

Father's Day was good to me, all things considered. WW and the girls got me a SpiderMan 2 T-Shirt and Shrek 2 boxers! VERY COOL!

WW and DD(12) made biscuits and gravy for breakfast. The significance in this is WW hasn't made Sunday breakfast in a long time, she didn't feel I appreciated it.

WW was at the barn from about 10am till almost 2pm. During that time, I cleaned the porch, swept up all the dog hair, and cleaned up all the spider webs. I even washed my car.

Cleaned house when WW got home. We all went to bring WW's horse in for the night, then we went to the park. This was cool, considering I was the one running around with the girls. WW just kinda lounged around at the bottom of the slides. I was disappointed in her lack of interaction.

For dinner, WW made Zatarain's Black Beans and Rice with chopped up chicken added, spinach, and home made cornbread. Very yummy dinner.

Said a few other things, but can't remember them all, getting sleepy.

Oh yeah, if anyone wants to chat or email me here's my info:

Hotmail: rwukovich@hotmail.com
Yahoo: rwukovich@yahoo.com
AIM: robertwukovich
MSN: rwukovich@hotmail.com
Yahoo chat: rwukovich@yahoo.com

I think those are all correct.

All in all, had a pretty good Father's Day. Believer, thanks for the Father's Day, I didn't even think anyone online would wish me Happy Father's Day. Then again, I don't visit too many other threads, just don't seem to be online surfing much other than to continue with my own soap opera.

See you all later! Hope everyone had a Happy Father's Day!

yes my friend i know how knowing the "date" a PA happens memoralizes it for you. the 19th of june will always be in my head. Saturday was not a good day or night..... anyway just wanted to let you know it will be with you for awhile and its normal . I even remember that the june 19th of her affair was a WED. Just dont let it overwhelm you and keep chugging along your doing good.
CLIFF

Cliff: Memorial Day is a special day that holds significant meaning, especially since I spent 11 years in the Air Force. Now I feel it's been tainted, and I hope some day, I won't feel dread when it approaches.

Ended up having a talk with WW yesterday. She worked on resumes, and got 3 finished. 2 for Indianapolis and 1 for South Carolina. WW is talking about new jobs in singular. We ended up talking about it, and she said she at a minimum it may only be her relocating, so she has to look at it in that respect. Understandable I suppose. However, we ended up talking about my concerns, posted above, that she's already reached a decision and is only buying time until she gets an out. I expressed that would be cruel, and it would be much easier to handle knowing it's over and living together than having hope for no reason.

WW advised she's still undecided and is appearantly hoping the 10 days in California will be good for us. There won't be any internet access, and I'm going to ask WW to leave her cell home. I hope the best for her. I'm going to enjoy the silence of 10 days, but at the same time I'm going to miss them terribly.

Oh, talked about WW's NC terms, turns out she claims there have been no phone calls, chatting, or emails, but there have been a few online posts in the public domain. I have no way of verifying any of those except for the last. I pointed out, that was still against what she told me. She had said she would not respond to anything online. The temptation of being online is too great for her, which is why she's looking forward to the California trip.

There is so much that needs to be discussed with the counselor. I don't think an hour is going to cut it. So much has happened in the last 2 weeks.

Did some thinking (like I ever stop), and I really am ready for this to be over one way or the other. Yeah, I have some heartache, but I've reached a point I can handle divorce without any problems. All I have to do is just stop and think do I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who has demonstrated what WW is capable of? Then the heartache comes up, the pressure builds, and I start to sweat. You can feel the panic trying to gain control.

Had a bad dream last night, involved WW, infidelity, and OM/OM's(not sure, kinda fuzzy) that woke me up in a cold sweat around 3am. I think the strain of this situation is starting to get to me. Was at WalMart yesterday and did one of those blood pressure machines, not good. WW even noticed and said something, but I said nothing. She truly does not understand the stress of this situation is causing me.

This is laughable, WW asked if I'd clean her horse stall while she was gone or if she should have someone at the barn do it, I haven't provided an answer yet, not entirely sure I'd feel comfortable doing that knowing what she was doing the last time I did it. Granted, I know that won't be happening this time, but still, it's the whole concept again. I suppose I should approach this from the standpoint of, if I don't do it, then I'm letting what happened cause negativity in me in regards to caring for the horse. If I do it, then every time I clean the stall, or whatever, I'll be thinking about what happened. Catch-22. Any suggestions? Should I do it, or have her get someone else?

Well, I should probably get to work. More later.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />All I have to do is just stop and think do I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who has demonstrated what WW is capable of? <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps the asking of that question is an answer unto itself.

You are an extraordinary man.

ITB

Hmmm. I think I would have her get someone else to clean the horse stall. She will have to do that anyway if she moves.

She is not making too much sense right now. Is she moving and taking the horse? The kids? Very strange.

And tell her no contact means no contact, not a little contact, some contact, blah, blah, blah. (But leave out the blah, blah, blah.)

ITB: Yeah, it's the question I've been asking myself all along. I sometimes wish I wasn't the optimist I am. I believe, under the right conditions, a miracle could occur, lightning can strike the same place twice. I know staying together for the kids is the wrong thing to do, and I won't do it. BUT, I feel I owe it to them, to give this every chance, the big difference if she decides to stay is my eyes are WIDE open. You better believe if she decides to stay, that everything will be under scrutiny.

Believer: Yeah, I've been thinking I kinda like the idea of not having to go clean that horse's stall every day.

I can do what I want, when I want, go where I want to go. I'll be FREE for 10 whole days. Hehe, and DD(12) thought I wasn't happy about them going. If she only knew how much I'm looking forward to this vacation as much as she is. I'm just wondering how long it'll take before I start missing them.

I agree, she doesn't make too much sense right now. I'd be scared to see just how confused her head is. If she left, without us, she would make arrangements for someone to care for her horse until she could have it relocated.

The kids, now there's an interesting topic. She's talked both ways, having to pay child support and even talked about having them with her, meaning joint custody, 50/50. But I don't think the courts do that, one parent has to be the primary, and the other has to pay child support.

I tell WW all the time NC means NC. I'm sure the counselor will tell her the same thing tomorrow. I pointed out to her yesterday, that she said she was going to ignore anything he might post online, and she hasn't. Of course, she didn't say anything about it other than it was in the public domain. Meaning, she commented on his pictures, but I know it's been more than just in the public domain.

She also reiterated yesterday that she doesn't hate me. I'm not sure why she thinks I think she hates me. What gets me is how oblivious she is. Everything is about how it's pushing her away, not once do I even see a glimmer that what she's doing might be pushing me away.

Getting back to work!

Gee I hope you keep the kids with you. Your wife makes no sense at all. Even if I had a strong, long term relationship, I would have a hard time picking up and moving to a new city, new job, etc., and dragging my kids away with me. It is just crazy.

DD(12) is from my previous marriage and isn't going anywhere. WW said she didn't want to split up the girls, so I don't know what's going to happen.

Obviously, in my perfect fantasy world, we stay together as a family and live happily ever after.

What's really going to happen? I have no clue, not sure WW does either.

[ June 22, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

My vote is to keep the girls. Let wife do her thing, and take her horse. She is doing a lot of weird planning and fantacising. I think she will stay with you. But that is just my guess.

I have every intention of keeping the girls, and I'm currently letting WW do whatever she wants. I'd like to believe she'll stay and work things out with me, but I still have to plan as if she's going to leave me. I guess the good thing is, it's not like we have a deadline or anything. She simply said we'd see where we are in a couple of months.

Only problem is, I don't know if I can "pretend" everything is normal for another couple of months.

Plan A is not about "pretending" everything is normal. You have the option to say that you are really hurt by her actions.

Also do you go out with friends? Anything that raises your self-esteem is good.

RW, a few thoughts.

Where children are concerned, no matter who gets to be the primary caregiver, the usual rule is that, that parent, can’t move more then 50 miles away from the other parent. This is for obvious reasons, sooooo if your W decides to move out of state…well…

As for cleaning stalls…I would respectfully disagree if you were thinking of going in that direction. If it were I, I would explain that “my” holiday weekend would be impaired by the additional responsibility. She has chosen to go away once again and of course that’s her decision to make, however, it doesn’t mean that you have to make things easy for her.

Also, waiting until she returns to make a decision, is in my opinion counter productive. She is feeling no pressure to come to some conclusion here. She is floating along and enjoying a situation that has you on a string. I think that you should be “mean spirited” enough to let her know that you’re taking control of your situation,…your life in effect. I would let her know that having a selfish disinterested party as a mate might not be in your future plans. No threat! Just plain talk.

On the issue of no contact, I think you realize that this is a farce. Why aid and abet by making believe that she’s doing what she agreed to do but isn’t? Why belittle yourself by not confronting the issue?

Lastly, how long have you been in plan A? Plan A is not intended to be an indefinite state of affairs after all. There is a stipulated limit. Do you think you might have exceeded that limit? Just look at your current state of mind. You’re disconnecting from your W! Your love for her is dwindling! This usually signals that plan A has gone on to long and its time for plan B.

Just some thoughts you might want to consider.

coach

Believer: WW never actually asked me to "pretend" everything is normal. That was my interpretation by her asking me to stop pressing for "the answer". I asked if that's what she meant, stop pressing for "the answer" and "pretend" everything is normal? She said yes. So, I'm not entirely sure what she's expecting things to be like. She knows I'm hurt by her actions. In our last counseling, she said that's part of the reason she hasn't left, because she sees how much it hurts me. I do go out with my friends, when I can. That's why I'm looking forward to the 10 day trip to California. It'll be good for me to be away from her for that time. Maybe I'll actually be able to get some sleep.

Coach3530: I need to find out what the custody laws are for this state I guess. I don't think WW has looked into that either. I told WW last night, she needed to get someone else to clean her horse's stall, so that's now a non-issue. I don't think she's waiting until she comes back to make a decision, I believe it's just thinking time for her. When she asked me to stop pressing for "the answer", she said we'd look at where we are in a couple of months.

Yeah, I think WW's version of NC is a joke. I point out every chance I get that she's not doing what she agreed to do, which I want to remind, was of her own choice. Which leads me back to just what the heck are we doing here?

Plan A started in March, and you're right, I've just about reached the end of my rope. I'm ready for Plan B, but I need to wait until they get back from California. That's when I'll begin my push for physical seperation.

Counseling is this afternoon, and I've no idea how we're going to fit 2 weeks into 1 hour. So many things have happened. If there is anything I get out of today, I want to understand what we're supposed to be doing, and I want to make sure she understands how cruel it is to let me have false hope with the intent of keeping things amicable until such a time that she can leave.

I can't imagine what the counselor is going to say as a result of all this crap. I already know the counselor sees how messed up WW is. I wish there was some way I could get WW to see a psychiatrist.

Thanks everyone, you give me strength, and food for thought. What more could I ask of friends?

Now begins the long day, as I anxiously await counseling....

Counseling yesterday ended up with me doing most of the talking. Mostly about my perspective of the last 2 weeks.

WW expressed she initiated this NC with OM she's doing is because I asked her to. I said the intent was for her to chose to do that because she wanted to work on our relationship, because that is what it would take. I further said, the intent was for 100% NC.

Of course, right in counseling, WW said what I was saying is what she's doing isn't good enough. I said, that's not what I said, and I turned to the counselor at this point to show that WW always turns everything I say into something I didn't say. The counselor asked her if she understood what I was trying to say. She eventually indicated she understood, not sure, but she might have.

I also pointed out she wasn't wearing OM's necklace around me anymore, but I suspected she always had it with her. Then I asked if she had it with her, it wasn't on her person, but she had it in her car. At which point, I indicated that she was still clinging to OM, whether she was directly in contact or not. I said, we wouldn't be able to find out if there will ever be anything between us until she's 100% over him, and that could take months. Then it would take months to see if we could make anything of our relationship.

The counselor pointed out that what I'm doing at this point is trying to protect myself from being hurt anymore, and is perfectly understandable and acceptable. WW indicated she's not stringing me along, she really is undecided. But she still maintains she thinks nothing of me more than she would a friend. Which is understandable, considering where we are in this nightmare.

We had a parent's meeting at DD(3)'s daycare last night. It's a very nice daycare and they have big plans in the work, all very nice. After we left, WW indicated DD(3) should stay at that daycare until she's at least 5. If she leaves, I guess that means DD(3) will be staying, of course.

The next counseling session is in 2 weeks on July 7th and it's for WW only. WW and girls leave for California for 10 days on 9 July. Our next joint session shouldn't be until 21 July, three days after they get back from California.

I've definitly reached the point where either way this goes will be a good thing. If she decides to leave, then the nightmare will be over. If she decides to stay, then we have a chance to work on our relationship. Whichever is perfectly fine with me. Yes, I still love her, but I don't need the crap anymore, nor do I want it.

Ready to field questions and comments!

Sounds like you are handling things well. I would start getting my Plan B letter ready. Most WS's do not end the affair until Plan B is initiated.

You have done a good Plan A. The MB plan is 6 months for men.

Also I think it will be nice for you when WW goes to California. You will get a nice break.

Believer: I would like to think I've done a good plan A. I haven't reached 6 months yet, 6 months would be the beginning of Sepember. I'm guessing she'll move out on her own by then anyway.

She did another resume last night, so I'm expecting her to get something from one of these places soon, and then she'll have to make her decision.

Of course, at this point, I'm expecting her to go alone. For now, I'll continue to be patient.

Yep, you'll have to see if she gets a job. But she has been sending resumes for awhile now and is still with you, so who knows?

Yeah, I think the only thing I can do at this point is to just lighten up as much as possible. That will be the best thing for me and the kids, I'm sure I've been less than pleasant at times when she's not around. I've been so focused on Plan A'ing WW, that I've not been Plan A'ing the kids. DD(12) brought that to my attention. Of course she brought up to WW first. Only problem with that though, is DD(12) failed to mention WW is just as guilty about that as I am. WW thinks I'm the only one with the black cloud over my head.

Besides, no reason not to lighten up, I keep getting reminded this is only going to end the way she wants it to anyway. It's time to sit back and see what happens until Plan A time limit is up, or she gets another job, whichever comes first.

Well, talked to WW today and told her that I felt that it was time for the physical seperation until she could make her decision.

I think this is a good thing because it would allow both of us think more clearly, and ease the tension and stress on each of us.

Surprisingly, I'm feeling mixed emotions about this. I'm looking forward to being more free in my own house, but at the same time I hate to see her move out.

This will hurt us financially big time, but we'll have to figure out how to deal with it somehow.

Obviously we still have to work out all the details. I'm not sure if this is going to work like a traditional Plan B. Our MC's idea was to have us still spend time with each other. It's important to both of us that we're both accessible to the girls and can spend time together with the girls.

I'm scared.

Some interesting things that only confuse me even more.

WW had to work yesterday, and I always work Saturdays. Well, WW hasn't called me at work since before Memorial Day weekend. BUT, she called me yesterday, for no appearant reason.

Since I mentioned the physical seperation on Friday, I've tried to maintain an air of indifference, mostly for me to accept what now appears to be inevitable. It's my opinion, once she moves out, it's over, the end. I think this because I know she's still actively sending out resumes, and if she gets a job, I think she'll be gone so fast my head will spin. Not to mention she will for all intents and purposes be single, not having to answer to anyone.

Turns out, WW wanted to go out with her friend from work last night, but her friend decided she didn't want to go out. Guess it's a good thing I thought ahead and bought WW a Tombstone pizza too. This is where the second confusing thing comes into play, I went out for a smoke, WW was already outside playing with her phone. Well, when I was coming back in, she was sitting in the middle of the top step in front of the sliding glass door to the porch. I put my hand on her shoulder to steady myself as I went around her, impulsively, I scratched her shoulder affectionately. She said that felt good, and asked me to scratch her whole back. I paused for a moment in shock, since she's made it abundantly clear she abhors my touch to begin with. So, I obliged, totally shocked.

Got up this morning and made French Toast, sausage links, and Orange Juice. Ok, I didn't make the sausage links or the Orange Juice, but I did cook the sausage links, and drank OJ!

Now, the first 2 pieces of French Toast came out perfect. But, I've discovered how much I hate electric stoves. Appearantly, it was still warming up when I cooked the first 2 pieces, so by the time the next 2 went in, it was too hot, and I burned them. By this time WW was in the kitchen and informed me the stove was too hot and turned it down. Now, I was really hoping I was going to be able to pull this breakfast off perfectly since I had something to prove. I was really upset, and WW merely said now I know why she hates that stove so much. Then she asked me why I was shaking. So I told her, I was upset because I wanted this to be perfect, and all I did was screw it up. She hadn't eaten hers yet, so I was still worried. WW and DD(12) had nothing but good things to say, but I'm not sure if they were only said to keep from hurting my feelings. Then the next weird thing happened, WW hugged me and thanked me for breakfast. She hasn't done that before either.

I'm not done, it gets better. WW went and rode her horse, which is her typical Sunday thing to do. She was gone from 10am to about 2pm. I was outside when she got home, and she stayed outside with me and we watered and weeded the flower beds. OMG, she squirted me with the water hose! Now, she's made me feel like I'm nothing, she has no desire or feelings for me whatsoever, but here she is being playful with me.

Before I mentioned the physical seperation on Friday, we talked about getting new bikes and a bike seat for DD(3). Well, around 4pm we left to bring her horse in and go to the Super WalMart to do some shopping. WW talked about her getting a new bike and giving her old one to DD(12), and me getting one like we had talked about before so we could all go riding together. My first thought was, well, if we're not living together how's this going to work? But, I didn't say anything. We decided on the bikes we wanted, but they only had 2 in stock, 1 was the new 2004 model and a beautiful cobalt blue, the other was the 2003 model and red and silver. WW and I both like the cobalt blue model. WW put it on layaway, and I put in a reserve for a cobalt model when it gets in, and they're supposed to call me and let me know when it's assembled.

Now, here's the final shocking thing that's really got me doing loops. We were in the car and backing out of the parking space when WW say's that's how we need to handle Christmas, by using layaway. It was all I could do to keep my jaw from dropping into my lap. I mean, wtf? If we're seperated, I don't think we're going to be doing much of anything jointly, especially by the time Christmas rolls around.

Now, if WW still wants to do our Monday lunch date, I'll be real surpsised. I'm not going to mention it, but we'll see if she says anything or calls me to let me know what time to pick her up. Of course, if she says something I'll go, but I'm not going out of my way anymore to do anything with her. Hmm, maybe I'll ask her what she's doing for lunch before she leaves for work tomorrow.

Can anyone explain to me wtf is going on? Because I think I'm an idiot, I just don't get it.

Gee, it seems when you are indifferent, she gets more interested. I still don't see her leaving, but we will see.

RW, why are you so surprised? The human condition dictates, (more often then not), that when a person place or thing is too available or easy to acquire, it seems to have less value. You’re a working man…haven’t you always placed more value on those things that you’ve had to struggle and work hard for then those things that just came easy?

Well sad as it is to say, so it seems to be with people and relationships. You’ve drawn an imaginary line in the sand for your W to see. Further, you didn’t do it as a threat or in anger. You drew that line in front of an impartial third party and you did with a clear and precise goal in mind. And in doing so you sent a clear and precise message.

But here’s the thing. I would be very shocked if this has changed your W’s attitude about anything, accept maybe her respect for you as a man and human being…and let’s face it! Coming from where you’ve been during all of this, that’s not to be scoffed at! Other then that however, believing anything else at this point, I think would only be fooling yourself.

Look, RW, you’ve worked hard to do a good plan A but has it crossed your mind that in doing so, you might have gone a bit over board? That maybe you’ve projected yourself as to needy and to willing to accept any of her perfidious attitudes not to mention actions, that she is willing to dish out? After all, look at the woman you’re dealing with. If you had told her that you were going off to visit a friend, to spend an innocent weekend and then spent that weekend in bed with another woman, what would her reaction have been do you think?

It seems that now at last, you’ve taken a course of action that has impacted your W. May I respectfully caution you to not go back to your needy, hoping against hope, accepting of anything she does ways? You can still plan A while standing firm on your principals and standing firm in your resolve…right up until it’s time for her to leave, (and you should have a date in mind that you both agree upon)…then it’s time to go to plan B.

RW, you’ve made the move. You’ve told her it’s time to separate…if you waffle with out her making a firm commitment to the marriage and to you then I can’t help but feel that your marriage will then indeed, really be over!

Oh, she may hang in there for a while longer, tormenting both you and herself but make no mistake…if at this point she doesn’t decide do what she needs to do. then plan B is where you need to go and you need to do a good one! No half @ss attempts but the real thing and by the book.

Good luck.
coach

Believer: Can you explain why you don't see her leaving?

Coach3530: I hear ya! I believe I may have come across as needy and too willing to accept her unacceptable actions, purely in the spirit of avoiding conflict and LB'ing. At this moment, I have every intent of pushing WW out the door. I mentioned it once, on Friday, and I'm not going to say anything else until after they get back from California. So, 3 days later, on 21 July, we should have our next counseling session. If she says anything other than 100% committment to the marriage, I'm pushing her out the door. Then I have every intent of holding as firmly to Plan B as possible. The cake eating is going to stop.

This is laughable, WW still wearing her trophy necklace every day. She comes home and takes it off. So I ask her today why she bothered taking it off. She says, because it bothers you for me to be wearing it. So, I'm like uh, duh, I already know you're wearing it all day, why bother taking it off when you get home? Ok, I didn't actually say that, but I sure as heck thought it. Now what really makes this funny is, I took WW and DD(12) on a picnic lunch. WW wasn't wearing the necklace then. This tells me, she's actually going out of her way to not wear it around me. So I ask you this, WHY? If I already know she has it with her all day, and she wears it when I'm not around, how in the world is she doing me any favors by not wearing it around me?

Right now, I'm just trying to keep things as pleasant as possible until they get back from California. Mostly I'm doing this for DD(12)'s sanity and mine. To be perfectly honest, just actually saying I think it's time for the physical seperation has made it easier to accept, and I think as a result will enforce my conviction in that respect. I told DD(12) to be prepared, because unless she commits 100% and there are some major changes around here, she's out the door.

DD(12) told WW's sister that she knows what's going on. Sister-in-law told DD(12) that she didn't think I should have told her. Well, Sister-in-law told Mother-in-law that DD(12) knows everything, so Mother-in-law felt the need to tell me she didn't think it was right that I told DD(12) and didn't want to hear anything I had to say about it. Now, I'm sure there are people here that probably don't agree either. But I want to make it perfectly clear, she's my daughter, and I've always been 100% honest with her. After what her real mother did to her, which is abandonment, I felt she had the right to know what could happen, and I wanted to make sure she had plenty of time to accept this, then just have it all dumped on her last minute. DD(12) has repeatedly said, she's glad I told her the truth, and that she'd rather know all this now then find out at the last moment. I think this way she is finding acceptance like I am.

Sometimes I believe WW really is confused about what to do, but can't seem to commit one way or the other. Other times I feel like I'm being played. This has got to end. DD(12) and I both are tired of this nightmare, and just want her to get off the fence.

I get up on Monday's and get DD(3) ready for daycare. This morning I was in WW's room since that's where DD(3) always ends up. I was sitting next to WW and we were taking turns tickling DD(3) and then I showed DD(3) the best places to tickle WW. After DD(3) left the room, WW was laying on her side on the edge of the bed. I was kneeling on the floor facing her. I told her I loved her. She asked me why. I told her I already told her before. Then I got up, kissed her, and she kissed me back. I left to get ready to take DD(3) to daycare.

At one point after WW got home she was sitting on the couch. I walked in and directly up to her and kissed her again. A little more slowly this time, but didn't try passionately. I just wanted to see what kind of a response I would get. She kissed me back. But I think I just need to quit doing that though. Especially since she doesn't come to me.

I just want my wife back, and I want her to love me more than anything in the world.

RW, get ready. This is along one and I'm not pulling any punches.

You’re such a sweet guy but reading your posts just breaks my heart. Of course you want your W to love you and want to be with you. Reading your posts painfull.

But RW, you keep doing the same things the same way, over and over! And you can’t understand why nothing changes? You can’t understand why you keep getting the same result?

If for once you would just back off and not make yourself so GD available to her every want and whim...so responsive and attentive to her every word and action...then maybe she would start to get interested in you again.

Maybe if she had to work harder at getting your attention and interest she would put forth the effort. But man, you’re just so obvious and easy for her! You can’t keep your hands off her and she plays you like a fiddle...doling out small amounts of affection...enjoying her ability to control, control, control! And you! You swoon at every little bone she throws you.

Why don’t you get it? You’re playing this thing strait and honest and she’s gaming your head every chance she gets. The truth be told, I’ll bet that your W just doesn't get what it is you want...she just doesn’t get that you are open and sincere and want an honest and loving marriage…she doesn’t get it!

To her it’s all a chess match and forgive me for saying so, but you aren’t much of a match for her. And you want her to believe that you’re actually going to ask her to leave? RW, I don’t believe it and I really like you! Your W doesn’t believe you! Why would she? What have you ever done that would cause her to take you seriously?

Take this thing with the necklace for example. Why would you even mention it to her? Why would you even give her the satisfaction of letting her know she gets to you when she wears it? And please don’t tell me that you believe she doesn’t realize what she’s doing when she lets you catch her wearing it!

Then she offhandedly drops hints about you two buying Xmas gifts together...in the future!? What's that about? She’s sending resumes out to distant locations for goodness sake. Why wouldn’t you just turn around and ask her what city she plans to be buying these gifts in and who she’s planning to buy them with...because unless there’s a substantial difference in her attitude, you don’t intend to go anywhere!

You see, to me that would be an honest response but you probably see it as a LB. Why? Plan A doesn’t mean that you give up your integrity. If anything it demands that you be even more honest…honest to the point of exposing that which is most dear to you and face the conflict that honesty may provoke.

RW, you are running out of time. She will soon leave again for one of her trips and unless you start showing her who you want her to see then I would tend to believe that her opinion of who you are is pretty much set in stone.

Please for the sake of what you hold most dear, send her on her trip having to wonder who this man she’s married to, suddenly turned into.

Ask before she’s about to leave, that while she’s on her trip, she come back with a plan as to when and where she inmtends to move. Be nice, but be firm! Let her go away thinking at least.

coach

Coach, you're right. Guess, the only thing I can do is just Plan B as much as possible while still living together.

I guess my biggest problem is I can't kick her out, and I can't leave either. I looked into the legalities of trying to have her removed, and I can't.

I'm going to send her an email today, and ask if she's thought any on moving out and when it would happen so I can plan accordingly.

Here's what my email will say:

"On Friday, I agreed with you and the counselor that a physical seperation would be the best thing for us. It gives you time to think about what you need to do, and it relieves stress and tension on all of us.

I'm bringing this up, because I need to redo my budget to account for the bills I'll need to pay that you're currently paying."

Suggestions?

Ok, I think I'm starting to lose my mind. WW called today for no reason, as I've said before there hasn't been much of that since Memorial Day weekend.

To top it all off, she called a second time. We talked about what we're having for dinner, and having some adult beverages. Supposed to pick up some coconut rum. This is the part where I want to scream, at the end of the phone call, where I normally say I love you, bye, she says FIRST "I Love you". I of course said, I love you too. But now I'm really confused.

Well, time to see what else could be surprising about tonight.

RW, I’m not suggesting that you “throw” her out. But I’m also not suggesting that you equivocate or fabricate an excuse either. What’s wrong with the simple truth?

“Wife, this is what we agreed upon, when do you plan to move?” “If not why not?”

If she asks why you’re suddenly so in a hurry, you simply tell her that you’re loosing faith in her. Tell her that you’ve already lost faith in her honesty, her commitment and her desire to give the marriage a fair chance and before you also loose the love you have for her, you want a chance to cool off.

If further explanation is necessary, tell her that while you love her and want more then anything to save the marriage, the toll that this entire experience has taken on you emotionally is causing you to lose all will to continue fighting for it, and if she cares for you at all, then she will keep her word this time and move out so you have a chance to put some of the anger, suspicion and pain behind you.

So tell me RW. Can you put it on the line for her, right to her face with out making up any lies or excuses? Without losing your temper, with out humbling yourself with tears? Can you do this, because if you can, maybe just maybe, she’ll come to realize that she hasn’t really been putting anything over on you. Maybe she’ll finally realize that you love her in spite of her faults and the lies and the hurtful behavior. Maybe she’ll even begin to understand.

coach

I like coaches advice. I think it is time to lay it on the line.

Coach and Believer: Believe it or not, that's exactly the point I'm at. She has an individual counseling next Wednesday, and they leave for California on Friday. I plan to sit down with her Wednesday night after her counseling to talk. I want to see what she'll share with me about her counseling, and then I'm going to tell her we need to have the physical seperation for all the reasons you mentioned Coach. I think that'll be a good time to actually plan on when she can be out of the house. I'm thinking by the end of July. I say that because they'll be in California from the 9th to the 18th, then my stepmom wants the girls for a week after they get back. That would be an excellent time for her to move out. Oh, my birthday is 1 August.

I want to add to my last post. WW also mentioned some other job listings she found. 3 in Lexington, KY. At which point she referenced how much closer it is to my family in Memphis. After I got home, I find out she called DD(12) and asked her if she thought she might like living in Lexington, KY. There's another listing for California, on the other side of the freaking country from OM and best friend. Oh, and one for Oregon too. She's working on those resumes tonight.

I'll be honest, I have no intention of relocating anywhere without a 100% commitment to working on this relationship, and I'm not talking half way like she's been doing. I'm talking about her doing whatever it takes.

I'm actually rather surprised she hasn't said anything about moving out, considering she and the counselor were pushing for it. When I agreed that I thought it was time for a physical seperation she said the only reason she hasn't moved out is because I asked her to stay. Now, that I'm agreeing, it's like I never said anything. Well, I already told DD(12) before today's posts that she's moving out.

Hi RW,

You don't know me but I was intrigued by your story. In fact I read the whole thing in one night...up until 4:00 a.m. I have now caught up on the last few days.

I am a FWW. I have to strongly suggest that you follow through with having your W move out. My husband used to sound very much like you and I very regrettably, used to sound like your wife. I knew I had him in the palm of my hand, and in my fog, I took full advantage of it, but hurt him almost irreperably in the process. As long as he was being giving and loving and doing everything he thought I wanted, I wanted nothing more than for him to go away. Well, guess what. He did. And guess what, I was miserable! He moved 1800 miles away. I thought I would be thrilled. I was miserable. I had ended the affair before he left, but I was "done" with our marriage.

I found out just how much I loved and needed him. When he started telling me he was going to file for divorce and move on, my heart began to change.

It took strength and determination on his part to follow through with leaving. I don't know what would have happened if he had stayed around and begged for my love, kissed my [censored], etc.

I can't predict the future, none of us can, but I really think you need to move forward with your plan for the separation. Don't hold out all hope that your wife will do what you want, but also don't lose all hope. Either way, your life will be better in the long run.

Best of luck,

Michele

Michele: I just want to reassure you. I can't live the way I'm living while she takes her time in chosing what she's going to do. I'm at the point I firmly believe we need to seperate until she makes her decision, or I decide I can't wait any longer and I make a choice. What is happening right now isn't fair to me, to her, or our kids.

I don't want to feel like a prisoner in my own home anymore. I'm tired of dreading her coming home and not knowing what to expect from one day to the next. I need a break from this situation. I've talked this over with DD(12) and she's firmly in agreeance with me.

One thing I didn't get from your post is whether or not you were able to save your marriage. Did things work out for you?

Yes, we have been back together for two years and we're doing great.

Michele

Michele: I'm happy for you and your husband. Thank you for sharing your story and giving me your advice. It helps me understand what WW might be thinking and how she might be feeling.

Of course, every situation is different regardless of how similar they may be. At least I have an idea, what you have described is she's being a hypocrit, she's doing what she accused me of doing, taking her for granted.

You're correct. She is taking you for granted. By your actions, she is under the impression that you are in it for the long haul. She has it good right now. My suggestion is to make it not so good. I know that is your plan, but I hope you can stick with it. Please stick with it. I hope I'm not coming across as hard, but I feel so strongly about this. You need to get some space between you, regardless of the outcome.

Michele

Sent WW an email asking if she's thought about the physical seperation, because I will need to adjust my budget to accomodate the bills she's paying.

Let's see how she responds to that.

I think it is good that you asked her if she has thought about physical separation.

I do think she will stay with you, because she has done nothing to move on. Well she has sent resumes out, but she is very impractical - doesn't seem to have plans for the horse, kids, anything.

Believer: I think you may be right. WW never said anything about my question about the physical seperation. When I asked her about it she said we'd talk about it later.

She worked afternoon shift yesterday and didn't get home until 10:15 or so. After small talk I asked her about my question. She said I didn't have to worry about adjusting my budget any time soon. I asked what she meant, and she said she's been doing some thinking lately.

I didn't press the issue, didn't ask any more questions. I've previously said, I'm not going to press physical seperation until the counseling session after they get back from California, and that's only if she's not ready to commit 100% to our marriage and 100% NC with OM.

Oh, I got an I love you too yesterday, and as I was about to head down to my room in the dungeon, she asked you going to bed? When I said yes, she came over to me and gave me a hug and a kiss.

I also forgot to mention, when she got home, she opened the door and said I'm home does anybody love me? Of course, I got up and greeted her with a hug and a kiss.

Don't worry, I'm not wavering where I stand in all this. I've made a deadline, and I'm sticking to it. But it looks like she might be realizing what she's dangerously close to losing.

Sounds promising, just keep up doing what you are doing. You have planted the seed about physical seperation. She will be thinking about what that would be like.

RW, her response to you is classic. By moving into new territory with her, you’ve added the element of accountability to the equation. Now you’ve made the issue NOT what she says, but what she DOES! Very important.

So what’s her response? A very nebulous kind of “I’ve been thing and this isn’t really going to be an issue.” Translation, “Moving or thinking about moving isn’t what I want to do right now so I won’t deal with it. I’ll just hold him off for a while ‘till I decide what I do want to do.” Further, she’s probably thinking, “he’ll be so happy that I’ve intimated that I’ve made him my choice that he won’t peruse the matter.”

RW, at this point you need to push the issue. Not to do so sends the message back to her that more of the same is OK with you. The door is now open for you to have a respectful Plan A style, conversation with her regarding your feelings…on everything!

This is your opportunity to dissolution her of any idea that you’re some dummy that doesn’t know what’s really going on. It’s your chance to explain to her, (in the most respectful way possible) that although you’ve been cognoscente all along to her cheating and lying and lack of willingness to follow through on her promises, you’ve chosen to stay the course because you believe that she and you staying together is what’s really best for all. Further, it’s your chance to tell her that it’s no longer about what she is saying she will do…it’s about what she is willing TO DO!

And RW, I would have a list of things you need her to do, at hand. A list that encompasses a recovery plan setting boundaries and placing limits. And guess what? If she wants time to consider or equivocates in any way, your answer should be “that’s fine with me! Just please do it from somewhere else. When are you moving out?”

Coach

Well, sent an email to WW this morning, saying I was curious about what she was thinking about that caused this change. She replied with wow, you sound like you want me to move out! So I called her to explain myself, because that's not what I was saying at all.

She said when she saw the job listings for Lexington KY she realized when she's thought of the future, I've always been a part of it. She further said she didn't know where her head's been.

I asked if the I love you I got the other day was because she decided she did in fact love me. She said yes. Now, in WW's eyes, the problem in our relationship didn't start because of OM, but long before OM. I agree with that, but OM is a factor that has to be dealt with. She got upset, and said something about me dwelling on things she felt I shouldn't be dwelling on, rather I should be focusing on us. I explained I want to focus on us, but for me OM is between us.

WW further said she was concerned by giving 100% NC with OM, that it would escalate and I would end up demanding she doesn't talk to anyone. She even went so far as to express her concern of how best friend would be treated. I explained, I don't hate best friend, I understand what she did, and why. I understand how she feels about WW and that she wants WW to be happy with whatever choice she makes.

Here's the shocker, WW actually said she thought she should be able to stay friends with OM and stay in contact. I explained that would be like pouring salt in a wound.

To me, like I've said before, I want only 2 things: 100% committment to the marriage, and 100% NC with OM. Everything else is negotiable. I told her, that's why we're going to counseling, but she can't help us, if we're not both in it for the long haul.

The conversation got cut short due to she had an appointment. But she did say now she's not so sure we can do this. It all boils down to what is she willing to do to work this out.

Before this conversation she asked if I wanted to go out on Date Night and even suggested something for us to do. I said sure, sounds like fun. Now I wonder if it's going to happen.

This flip-flopping is driving me crazy. But she has to see I'm firm about 100% NC with OM.

Here's an email I just received from WW:

DISCLAIMER: names changed to protect the innocent and some not so innocent

I'm going to try to explain it, but I probably won't do very well since I manage to **** everything most of the time anyway. I believe what happened, at the beginning, was that I felt taken for granted, ignored and not appreciated at all. I didn't feel loved, and I need to feel that. No, I don't want to be the center of someone's universe, that's just too much pressure, but I do need to feel that I'm special and frankly, I didn't. I felt that the only special thing to you was YOU. I was loving you, but thought my love was being wasted on someone who just didn't give a ****. My love is worth more than that, and I am worth being treated like I matter. The relationship felt old and tired and BORING. You know how much I despise being bored. So, I was open to someone that could offer me what you weren't. I found OM. And I think, more than anything, I fell in love with the way he treated me, the way he talked to me, the way he openly showed me that he loved me, something you didn't. He was new, he was exciting, he was different than the same ole same ole.

I thought I didn't love you anymore, but lately, yes, even after meeting OM a month ago, I'm thinking differently. I don't know if I ever really stopped loving you, I just re-directed it because I wasn't getting it in return. I think it really hit me about a week ago when I sent off all those resumes. When I started thinking about getting a new job somewhere, I got excited, and I imagined what it would be like. In each case, you and the girls were there with me, not OM. Then when I started talking to you about the Lexington job, I knew that I wanted you and the girls to be with me, and I started thinking of all the dreams we could fulfill that we've talked about for so long. That told me a lot, of course, I questioned it, who wouldn't? But it also made me sit back and really just think about things and be honest with myself, something I don't think I've been doing. I do love OM, but it's a "new" love, something exciting. I've tried to imagine having anything more than what I have now with him, and I can't. I thought I could, but I can't. We are similar in many ways, but far too different in too many other ways for anything permanent to ever happen. The feelings I have for him are fading, I still care for him, yes, but it's not what I thought it was.

I don't want to leave, and it's not because it would be an incredible pain in the [censored] for both of us, but because I realized that we do have something. Yeah, right now it's kind of in shreds, but I think it can be mended. What I think I need is more excitement....I want to get goosebumps and feel that tingling heat in my belly when you touch me. I want to get excited again about being close to you, making love with you, instead of seeing it as a "chore," which is what it had become. I do want to share things with you, and I haven't been because I'm still scared of completely opening up and exposing myself to you. I'm afraid that if I get emotionally naked in front of you, you will use that to your advantage to tell me what an awful person I am and how I just can't be trusted.
I want to be able to trust YOU again, but I can't trust you if you don't trust me.

I can't promise I'll never have cybersex with someone again...I enjoy it, and most of the time, in the past, you were the recipient of how it left me feeling: all wet and horny. We need to figure out a way to inject a little excitement and "newness" into our relationship, both emotionally and sexually. I'm not quite sure how to do that, but I'm willing to work at it.

Well, I don't really know what else to say, but I had to get this off my chest and let you know how I'm feeling.

Wow, what a turn-around. I think she is really being honest. Double up on meeting those EN's!

WW called, she just got a call on one of her resumes, for North Carolina. They want her to send in 2 more clips.

I asked her if she wants to hold out for Lexington KY. She said, she's going to send the clips, but she's not received any offers yet.

What timing....

I can hardly contain myself, and I'm not talking about the call on the resume.

You have been very strong and patient for a long time, so try not to expect too much. But I think the timing is great. At least she has started questioning herself. I see this as a turning point. Hang in there.

WW told me on the phone one of the things she was concerned about was how things would be between me and her best friend.

I explained my perspective on her best friend, and offered to call her.

Well, I called her, and one of the things she told me was she talked to WW after our first conversation this morning, the one where I said OM had to be gone 100% forever. Best friend told me she told WW if she was going to commit 100% to the marriage then OM needed to be gone. I think for the first time ever, best friend and I agree on something.

All in all, best friend and I are ok. I'm not happy about being hurt by the situation, but I fully understand her perspective in regards to the role she played in all this.

Something she and I don't see eye to eye on is how the trust issues need to be worked on. WW and I both agree, obviously from her email, that we can't have blind trust in each other. This can't turn into a situation that feels like a parent/child relationship, it won't work that way. So I want to see what our counselor has to say about how we should handle it. I think I would much rather take the professional's advice than best friends. I know there are going to be situations where I'm not going to have any choice but to trust WW. But that doesn't mean it's not going to cause me any angst.

Oh, and don't worry, my guard is still up. There is so much that still needs to be worked on. At least WW is demonstrating affection for me now and telling me she loves me. I even told her I understand she doesn't want me to feel like everything is suddenly ok and that I can just move back into the bedroom. I told her, I understood that and I'm not ready to just move back into the bedroom. I did offer my solution of 1 night a week for the first month, then 2 nights a week for the second month and so on. Depending on how things work out, that solution can be modified however we feel.

One thing is clear though, we will continue with our date schedule as originally outlined by the counselor when this all started. I decided along the way, I don't want to give that up ever. We just need to figure out how to keep it from feeling routine.

There is so much to work on, and I don't even know where to begin, but I know we have to use baby steps. I personally don't think I could handle anything faster. I obviously have a lot of issues I need to work out.

I did ask WW if OM knew of this, and she said no, and she doesn't intend to let him know until after she gets back from California, she explained this was because at that point there would already be 10 days of NC. I don't know if she thinks that would be easier or not. Somehow along the way I've got to get her agree to let us do it together. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with her doing it over the phone.

I'm in a cacophony of emotions at the moment. Part of me is like, yeah, right, and part of me is like OMG.

I actually started crying on the way home from work. I just wish there was some way she could comprehend exactly how I feel about her and what she means to me. I think I'll wait to move to the recovering forum until I know we're definitly on that road, meaning she's verbalized 100% committment to the marriage, and 100% NC with OM. I'm hoping that will take place in counseling when she gets back from California.

If you want to, check out the "moving forward" post in general questions. There are many WW's there and they are moving through the pain of withdrawal. It might give you some insite.

I hope it will not be too painful for you to read about their feelings.

hey bud, no shame in tears, I actually started tearing up myself when i read the posts of the last few days... its like reading history all over again...almost to a t.....when i told my WIFE she SHOULD move and got a backbone about everything.... my friend im happy for you... it doesnt mean the end of it all but maybe the start of something that will blossom into an amazing thing....
"life is too short to drink cheap beer! "

I'm not sure I realized what things would be like if we ever got to this point. I think for the first time since this all started, I actually feel like WW is trying.

I'm trying to meet her EN's as much as she'll let me, but at times I'm getting close to overdoing it. We both acknowledge there is are a lot of things that need resolved, but can only be resolved through time and patience.

I won't bring up NC with OM again, until our counseling session after they get back from California. After her best friend agreed with me that OM needs to be 100% out of the picture, I'd like to think she'll stick to it.

Breathing easier these days, but still feel like I'm walking on eggs, but for different reasons. I think what surprises me the most is the feeling of a huge weight being lifted off my shoulders.

We went out for Date Night last night, and we ended up talking about what we're looking for out of our relationship, how we'd like things to be, definitions of commitmants, etc. It's all about redifining our relationship with our eyes wide open. I pointed out this is about compromise and negotiation.

From her email, it's obvious the 2 most things she wants to work on is emotional and sexual. Sounds good to me, I guess knowing the problem(s) doesn't always make the solutions easier. I guess this is where our counselor should help us.

I did find a couple of articles on MSN this morning that I sent links to WW for. They were "Get Closer - Even Now" and "12 Ways to Keep You're Relationship Thriving". They seems to be some good ideas on how to work on both emotional and sexual needs, as well as other areas.

Well, I would start preparing myself for recovery. I understand it is the hardest part of all of this.

Be sure to read all the information on the home page about restoring the marriage, overcoming resentment, and reconciliation.

Good luck to you both.

RW,
I’m happy that you’re happy. But I would feel remiss if I didn’t remind you what happened last time your “still” WW took a little vacation on her own.

Also, forgive the redundancy but please remember the following:

“My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.
It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again.”
Dr. Willard Harley

coach

RW,
I don't want to rain on your parade. I've been following your thread since the beginning, but there is something in your WW email that keeps nagging at me . . . she wrote

can't promise I'll never have cybersex with someone again...

Isn't that the issue here? Didn't her Affair start out that way?

RW - I am assuming that recovery is going well. Where are you?

Coach: This vacation is with the girls to WW's mom's house. There is no internet connectivity, and I know WW's mom would never tolerate it. And there is no way I'm ever going to back down from 100% NC with OM.

Playedout: Yeah, that's bothering me too.

Believer: I'm not going to say we're in recovery just yet. Plan A maybe. Getting mixed vibes.

I don't think WW has the integrity for 100% NC with OM. The problems we're still faced with are the problems with our relationship before OM ever came into the picture, not to mention OM isn't even out of the picture yet. I'm not sure to what extent the contact is still there, but I know they post comments to each other's pictures on Deviant Art.

I tell you this though, I have no intention of moving anywhere without proof there is 100% NC with OM, which WW is supposedly going to initiate when she gets back from California.

Zero steps have been taken to work on the problems in our relationship. WW still spends all hours at night online chatting and surfing Deviant Art. I will say this though, I do get I love you too's every now and again. She still isn't initiating any affection though. She keeps talking about me pushing, and the walls still being up. This is really frustrating. I'm looking forward to her being gone for 10 days. Should have joint counseling when she gets back, guess I'll have to say something about all this.

On a lighter note, WW and I actually made breakfast together on Sunday. Went to the barn with her and took some pictures of her riding. Then we all went out and watched fireworks.

I think I'm starting to understand the problem here. She thinks I'm boring. My circle of knowledge about different things is limited, but she says I can change that.

Jump over to general questions and check out Ark's post on Plan A. It is great.

Believer: Ark's Plan A thread is exactly how it's been since she sent me the email, that is until yesterday. WW went to bed quite upset last night, as did I, mostly due to talking about her viewpoint on my faults, i.e. I'm boring.

If she truely expects me to relocate with her somewhere, and be a couple, then we need to feel like a couple, and right now, I don't feel it.

Ok, back to square one, no talking about relationships, enjoy life, and be sure to invite WW to enjoy it with me. Got it.

Okay, now all we have to find out is are you boring or is it her fogtalk? Give us a rundown. Do you work? Do things fun? Have hobbies and interests? Or are you a couch potato?

Well, I think she's right, I am boring. My main interest used to be computers. But, since this all started, I have a hard time enjoying them. Mostly I've been trying to find other things to do.

She explained when we talk she wants to be able to talk about other things besides computers or my job, which is computer related.

I don't watch much TV. But I like to read, no real hobbies, but I like to do a lot of different things. There are things we enjoy together, but nothing that I'm passionate about. We both like horses, hiking, biking, camping, etc. Personally, I don't see why I need to be passionate about any one thing. Seems to me just being able to enjoy whatever I'm doing is good enough for me. Nothing compares to the enjoyment I got from messing with computers.

I sent an email to WW this morning telling her about my perceptions of our conversation last night and why. The one important thing I didn't mention was my understanding of why talking about our relationship is a bad thing, due to it focusing on the negative. But I understand a good Plan A eliminates the negatives without requiring a lot of discussion on them. The only real thing the needs to be pressed is NC with OM, which will happen when she gets back from California.

I apologized for my persistant chatter about our relationship, and she knows I understand how it's not helpful. We honestly had a good weekend, and it focused on what Plan A should be about. I messed it up by going back into the relationship issues, yet again.

I've had a lot of patience just to get through the last 4 months, and I'm trying not to lose patience now. But, like I mentioned before, I'm concernced about her getting a job and us relocating before our relationship feels more comfortable. I'm guilty of trying to rush things, and in this situation, I can't. It's hard to go with the flow.

One good thing though, doesn't look like I ruined anything, after talking to her, I said I love you, and got an I love you too in return. It's not about what I'm not getting from her, it's about what I'm giving that she feels I haven't been for so long. Trying to stay focused.

Well I don't think you are the problem. You sound just fine to me.

However, she has given you an important clue. So get busy doing something so you can talk about it with her.

Let's see. How about working with the computer with some kind of photography program. Then you could take pictures of her and horse, and make it into art. I have a neighbor that is a photographer, and she has lots of her own art around the house.

Any projects that you could do around the house? Painting, or a garden? Geez, I don't know what men like. How about going shooting together? Hmmmm, might be dangerous.

Maybe plan a short camping trip.

Help me out here.

See that's the funny thing Believer, we've done/do all those things, except for the shooting of course.

here's the link to her site, she's taken most of these pictures, but some of them I've taken.

destination-lost.deviantart.com

We do gardening around the house, I've been helping maintain them, which is something I've never done before.

Not a lot of projects we want to do around the house, due to the possibility of her getting a job and us relocating.

Last camping trip was over Mother's Day.

I'm becoming friends with her barn manager, maybe I can start spending more time with him.

I'm pretty sure WW wouldn't want me to focus on her interests, because it would look like to her that I'm only doing it for her instead of for myself. Sad thing is, I like all the things she's interested in, for the most part.

[ July 07, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

Wow, nice pictures - it looks like paradise there.

Okay, so photography is out. How about volunteering to coach something? Or setting up somekind of computer related business?

It may be that she is in the fog. But she seems to be a very accomplished, creative person. Maybe she wants you to do some things on your own - or maybe not. It is so hard to tell what is what when they are in the fog.

RW,
Boy do I feel like scrooge! Sorry, but please! Let’s examine the situation minus the rose colored glasses.

You’re boring! Since when? Since she married you? Since she met the OM? Since she started posting at deviants.com? Since when? And now in an effort to please her you’re about to do what? Change what?

My friend, you are the person that you are. A good, kind generous man and father. And a man that doesn’t cheat on his W I might add! Anything you do to change that would be contrived and dishonest. Besides, how do you plan to live for the rest of your life being some one you’re not? And now you can’t show an interest in what she’s interested in?! Because that wouldn’t please her? Add to that what you just posted…

*I don't think WW has the integrity for 100% NC with OM. The problems we're still faced with are the problems with our relationship before OM ever came into the picture, not to mention OM isn't even out of the picture yet. I'm not sure to what extent the contact is still there, but I know they post comments to each other's pictures on Deviant Art.*

Further, you go on to write…

*Zero steps have been taken to work on the problems in our relationship. WW still spends all hours at night online chatting and surfing Deviant Art.*

RW, what is going on here? And deviantart.com! It’s practically a dating site! My friend I know that you’re encouraged by what seems to be progress but are you sure that you’re not selling yourself on something that’s not real?

coach

coach -

Have you checked out the site, deviantart.com? I have looked through the whole site, and it seems to me that these are some very creative, individualistic people. I found nothing offensive, just wonderful art.

Coach: I guess I didn't make my self clear. The first day she said I love you and touched me with affection, I did get my hopes up. Since then, things feel the way they did before she did those things. Of course, my hopes have backed off, and I still question where this is going.

I don't think there is anything left to change. As far as interests are concerned, I look at it from the perspective of learning is a good thing. Anything I do is because I'm interested. I'm only saying I feel if I show interest in things WW is interested in, then I think she'll view it as I'm only showing interest because she's interested.

It's my opinion, if she's decided to stay with me and work things out, then we need to do things to that effect. I'm not moving anywhere if our relationship doesn't feel better.

WW had counseling last night, all she would tell me is they talked about her, me, the kids, and marriage. She seemed very thoughtful for awhile, and it wasn't until she got back from cleaning her horse's stall, that she was more communicative. She said things that indicated her decision to stay with me and work things out is in place.

I'm off work tomorrow to take WW and the girls to the Airport. We'll have 10 days apart to reflect on things. We'll see how things are when she gets back. WW said our next counseling session isn't until 28 July, mostly because she couldn't see a point in scheduling for 3 days after she gets back from California. So, after counseling in 3 weeks, I hope to have a better idea of where things stand. Especially since WW said she would tell OM of NC when she gets back.

I have things to do while they're gone to keep me busy, and I'm going to get out and do some things. Going to rent a carpet cleaner and clean the upstairs, going to fix that leaky hot water knob in the kitchen, and anything else I can see to do.

Believer,
For the most part, it’s very true. You’re correct, just great art. But look at the forum section...then look at the section suggesting meetings and parties and how to get together. And of course there's nothing draconian about this either, except if you’re a married person making connections that are inappropriate. And if that’s not what happened in this situation then tell me what did. Sorry if I implied that the site was pornographic or immoral in some way. Not my intention. I was simply making a point.
Coach

coach -

You are right. I am active in many things, and work with 22 men (the only woman). But I always remembered that I am married, and conducted myself accordingly.

This whole internet can be the best thing in the world, and at the same time, the worst.

Called the counselor today to schedule an appointment for next week. She said, she forgot to mention to WW to see if I wanted to schedule one since our next joint session won't be until 28 July.

I'd like to think the Counselor can give me some sort of indication where my marriage is. So, next Thursday at 4pm will be dreadful I think.

I don't think it will be dreadful at all. Your wife is still living with you. I don't think she is going anywhere.

Believer: I don't have a problem with her staying, as long as it's to work on our relationship. But I don't want her to stay if the nightmare continues.

She got home today and immediately got online. She called me over to her computer and made a big show out of letting me watch her delete OM from her friends list. I asked why? and she said because.

Well, to be honest, I don't see where it means all that much, because she's been chatting to all hours of the night with ANOTHER guy from Deviant Art. She even had his webcam up today. This internet thing has become some sort of obsession, addiction, I don't care what you call it, but I don't see how we're ever going to resolve anything with her spending all her free time on the freaking computer.

Sorry, I'm a little pissed off. I fixed dinner, and she couldn't get off the computer to eat at the table. Well, I stayed at the table, WW asked if I was going to come into the living room and eat with everyone else. I said, I'm almost done, it would be kinda pointless to get up and go in there for a few bites, just to go back to the kitchen.

I hope the counselor can tell me something useful about how to deal with this situation.

Got DD(3) to bed, and WW is still on the freaking computer. Wait, she did get off long enough to go to the barn to clean her horse stall. I promptly went to my room, and didn't say anything else to WW. GRRRRRR.

It is my opinion that until she is willing to have NC with OM (no surprise) and can PROMISE that she will not participate in cyber sex, recovery can't begin. Cyber sex is what got you into this mess. She may be willing to give up OM as she will probably get bored with him, but she will move on to another one. She has made that clear by saying she can't promise to never do it again. She CAN promise and keep it; she is making a choice to not promise.

Michele

[ December 03, 2004, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: lovemyhubby ]

RW,
You’re a computer guy; have you put spy ware on her machine? And when she brings out the web cam what does she do? In all fairness, photo conferencing isn’t cyber sex.

My concern would be that if she’s computing to avoid being with you then that’s al she’s guilty of.

RW, have you ever read the divorce buster 180 plan? It sounds to me that this plan is tailor made for your sitch. I think that your W is now in a place now, where you could successful using this system.

Coach

MicheleD and Lovemyhubby: One of the hardest things I've learned through out this process, is discussing our relationship all the time is a major LB. Therefore, the only time I am supposed to talk about such things is in counseling. I have my own individual counseling next Thursday, and I plan to bring all the recent stuff up with the counselor, so it won't be new to her at our next joint session on 28 July. But, I'm going to point out her obsession with the computer/cybersex is only harmful to our marriage. I am very angry the computer is more important than me or the family. So much so, since she got online as soon as she got home yesterday, I've not displayed any affection. No I love you's, no hugs, no kisses, no touches of any kind. I didn't even say good night to her last night.

Coach: I have spyware on the computer at the moment, just not turned on. And here's the reason why, I'm still at the point where I'm ready to Plan B, I'm waiting to see what's going to be said at our next joint counseling, which I was hoping would be the Wednesday after they get back, but WW felt it was stupid to do it then, and scheduled it for 2 weeks after she gets back. If she formally declares in joint counseling she's 100% committed to the marriage, then it will get turned back on, just to keep her honest.

We don't have a webcam, she was watching new guy's webcam and chatting with him at the same time. Thank god, I don't have a webcam...

I've read the 180 plan, and I believe my behaviour since last night falls within that plan. As a matter of fact, just before they got on the plane, I hugged and kissed my girls and told them I loved them, I made no advance to WW. She initiated a hug and a kiss, and then said Love ya, and I said love ya too. If she's really committed to this marriage, then she needs to start acting like it. Spending all her free time on the computer to avoid being with me is unacceptable.

Oh and get this, she felt the need to explain this new guy to me on the way to the airport. She said, you don't have to worry about him, his wife died 2 years ago in a car accident, and their relationship was one where they can't live without each other. She further explained if he walked by a window with a dress in it that he thought his wife might have liked, it would make him start crying.

What I'm concerned with at this point, is this, she used to complain about how much time I spent on the computer playing EverQuest. Well, when she made it clear she was unhappy about that, I compromised and didn't play on the computer whenever she was home, except on Sundays to play with my Dad and brother. Point of the matter is this, she's a hypocrit. What she's doing is the same thing, obsessed with the computer, and I know if I say something directly to her, then she's going to interpret it as me saying I'm better than she is and anything she ever does isn't good enough or is wrong. I've got to get the counselor to explain to her that what she's doing is harmful and is an obsession that she needs to curb.

Bottom line is this, I'm not displaying any affection anymore unless she initiates. And I'm not moving anywhere with her if she gets a job unless I feel comfortable about our relationship, and as things stand right now, well, you all know how I feel.

Something has to change, and it has to be soon, I refuse to live like this any longer. Hopefully, the next 10 days with her mother will make a difference. Hopefully, the counselor will have helpful things to tell me about all this.

Took a bale of hay to the barn yesterday for WW's horse. The barn manager was there. Ended up talking to him about things, and he said he asked WW last week how things were going with us. WW appearantly told him things were looking up, and things were better.

I wish I knew how. Counseling tomorrow, and hopefully some insight. I'll post the outcome.

I've talked to WW and girls every day so far, WW and DD(12) went white water rafting yesterday. Sounds like they had a lot of fun. WW said they're supposed to go camping today, so don't know when I'll talk to them again.

Things have been so peaceful at home with just me and the cats and dogs. I'm actually sleeping all night, which is a pleasant change. I miss my girls, sad to say, and my WW.

Are you cleaning out the stall too? Hope you are doing nice things for yourself while WW is gone.

Nope, not cleaning the stall, just taking out the occasional bale of hay, and making sure the water buckets are filled and clean.

Counseling went ok yesterday. Talked about WW's addiction to the computer, the email she sent me, and where all this stands. The counselor feels were still where we were at our last counseling.

To put it all in a nutshell, I'm just supposed to continue with Plan A. That means no talking about our relationship, or pushing for more quality time, or expecting anything from her. To be honest, I think I'm in a much better place mentally for a better Plan A.

This is what I'm going to do in anticipation of them coming home: house is going to be cleaned spotless, lawn mowed and edged, and going to have dinner ready.

For dinner, I'm going to BBQ some pork steaks in the crock pot. A nice salad to go with that, and I'm going to make a dessert Saturday night. It's going to be pudding in glasses. It'll be a 3 layer pudding, with a strawberry dipped into the top layer with chocolate shavings sprinkled on top. LOL, she'd never expect that!

They called last night, they're at Lake Tahoe. DD(3) is wearing the "bear bell" mostly it's nice because they know where she is! WW talked to me longer last night than she's talked to me any other night. Probably doesn't mean anything, but it was nice for me. They are all having a great time, and I'm enjoying the silence, hmmm, might have to break out my Depeche Mode CD and actually listen to Enjoy the Silence.

Went to my friends house after counseling, had a drink, and we talked for awhile. Couldn't stay out too late though, had to go home and let the dogs out before they left me presents.

All in all, I'm prepared to Plan A awhile longer. Counselor said we should talk about WW's computer usage at our next joint counseling, as she agrees, it's hypocrisy. Any relationship requires compromise, it's time WW starts making some compromises.

Sounds like you are doing well. I don't see your wife leaving anytime soon. I hope you will clean the house spotless (check with flylady.com for help).

Thanks Believer, I'll check that out! Probably won't post again until next Tuesday, as I try to avoid being online at home anymore. I don't even turn on the computer if I don't have to.

Well, if for some reason we do go our seperate ways, I can definitly see getting rid of the internet, shoot, I'd like to get rid of it now, but I'm sure WW would blow a gasket. I'm tired of being an enabler, but I'm to do my best to Plan A like there's no tomorrow, and try and do what our counselor suggests.

Seems to me, Plan A is something that never really ends. Anyway, I'll be back on Tuesday to let you all know how the homecoming goes, and to see whether or not or Monday Lunch Date actually happens.

Hope you have a good weekend. At least it should be peaceful. I guess just keep on Plan A'ing. You are getting good at it. Wait and see if she gets a job. Then you and the horse can Plan B.

Well, to be honest, I'm starting to stress a little bit. It's actually been VERY relaxing with WW and girls gone. I've been able to get plenty of sleep, and good sleep at that. No nightmares about my messed up marriage waking me up in the middle of the night.

I have all these great plans for everything to be so awesome when WW and the girls get home, but some inner part of me just knows WW will find something wrong. It won't matter how much I've done, or what I've done, or that it's all out of what she considers my character to be.

I'm exploring things about life, and trying to break out of the paradigm that is my life. I like to think I'm doing a good job of it. I KNOW I'm at the crossroads where one path includes my marriage, and the other one does not. I can honestly say I can easily go down either road. I just don't know how long I can camp here.

Holding my head up and Plan A'ing like there is no tomorrow.

Well, it's Monday. Any updates?

Well, Saturday night, WW called, and surprised the heck out of me by initiating an I love you first. Sunday, I was greeted at the airport with a hug and a kiss. The BBQ pork steaks were wonderful, house was clean, there was absolutely nothing for WW to do when she got home. The dessert I planned was also a big hit.

WW ended up getting on the computer, but I refused to let her know how it affected me, and I stayed in the living room on the couch watching TV until about midnight. As I was on my way down the stairs to my room, WW asked if I was going to bed, and I said Yup, and she said good night, so I said good night.

I was tired enough it didn't take long to fall asleep, and imagine my surprise when WW woke me up about 12:30 and invited me upstairs. She told me I was welcome to stay upstairs with her last night. Of course I did, and I thanked her too. I don't know when it will happen again, but I won't be asking for it. I've learned my lesson, this is all about GIVING, not GETTING.

All in all, I'd have to say things are very pleasant at the moment. WW recieved a call from a paper in South Carolina, she talked with the editor for awhile. Supposedly, WW's resume hasn't been rejected for the Lexington, KY paper either. DD(12), WW, and myself would rather go to Lexington, so WW is going to call them tomorrow and see how the prospects look.

Bottom line, I'm still not moving anywhere until I have a "warm fuzzy" about our relationship.

Well it's looking warmer and fuzzier by the day. You are doing very well. Just keep it up. You are getting much more from your wife than most of the men here. I think the fog might be thinning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'd like to think you're right Believer, but where I used to be optimistic, I find myself pessimistic. WW's pessisimistic, and her view point is if you expect the worse all the time, then it can only be better. You know, I used to believe I'd rather be happy all the time, and only upset when necessary.

Maybe I'm expecting too much, I don't know, I think if she's going to choose to stay in this marriage then she should start behaving like a wife. I guess, the rift between us is wider than I thought, that we'd have to continue doing these things the way we're doing them. I guess, it's because we're trying to deal with all the problems that caused the rift in the first place.

Believe me, there aren't any dances of joy going on here, not yet anyway. Remember the month of May, and how good I thought that was? I'm not going to claim we're on the road to recovery, until I FEEL like we're on the road to recovery.

It's been the people that posted on my thread that have gotten me to this point. I really don't think I'd have lasted this long. I can only say one thing, thank you all, I've learned a lot. The most important thing I've learned is to tend my rose garden every day, whether it's with WW or not.

A couple of weeks ago, I wrote WW a letter explaining why I love her, and asked her to do the same. Her response was she needed some time to think about it. Well, I didn't have a problem with that since it took me a couple of weeks to put all the feelings into words. Last night I sent her an email asking about it, and she responded with she's thought about it, and I should have something today. We'll see.

Just a quick update, not much has changed since my last post.

WW still spending all her free time at home online or on her cell phone.

Oh, and I decided I'm cutting back on my Plan A. This morning I didn't make coffee and I didn't wake her up to tell her bye and I love you. In times past, when that didn't happen, she'd call and ask why not. But I really think that won't happen.

This feels like a false start to recovery, and I refuse to let myself get sucked in. Counseling is next Wednesday, so I'm going to do my best to prevent any LB's between now and then just to be on the safe side.

Ok, I was wrong. WW called me before she ever left the house. Of course it was to get the Dial up number and login info for our ISP so she could dial in from work on her laptop to download mp3's sent to her by a guy on Deviant Art.

While I was looking up the dial up number she asked if I was running late this morning. I said, yeah, and asked how she knew. She responded with I didn't say good bye and the coffee wasn't made. Surprising how she notices the freaking coffee's not made when she hasn't acknowledged it being made for the past few days.

I slipped up and said I love you when we were ending the call, and got an I love you too. Kinda made me feel better since I didn't get any yesterday. I have a hard time keeping in the GIVING mindset without expecting anything, In a normal relationship, both partners do for each other so both receive something and don't have to miss it or expect it. But when you're not receiving anything on a regular basis, you become deprived, and crave it.

I know how it is to crave getting needs met. Been going through this for 16 months. Try to find ways to meet your EN's through other people. Your wife seems to still be foggy.

But I think you are doing well with the MB program. Your day will come.

RW,
Following your sitch as I have, I’m always feeling this sense of foreboding. Your W just comes across as, I guess uncommitted would be the kindest way to describe it. I get the feeling that she kind of likes the situation just as it is. I mean if nothing ever changed, I think she would probably be just fine with it. It’s as if she knows just how much hope to throw your way, with out committing anything of her own to the bargain. Or am I totally wrong?

If we look at this thing what do we see? She said she was working on the relationship then goes out of town and not only meets her lover; she spends the weekend in bed with him. So Ok, this is old news, but then she promises no contact and I think you realize that that’s not happening. But here’s what really scares me. I don’t think the OM really means anything to her. I’m getting the feeling that as long as she can flirt, cyber and just generally not work on the marriage, then she’s OK with staying with you. Worse yet, I get the feeling that she would think nothing of another little fling with some one new if the fancy struck her. It’s really a question of attitude.

If on the other hand you start making demands on her, asking her to really work on recovery and the marriage, she turns on you. Marital boundaries are LBs to her. If you ask that she behave like a W and mother, she throws the “you’re controlling” label at you. And so you, in fear of loosing your hard won position with her, don’t know how or where to draw that line in the sand so to speak. And she is so fine tuned to you that she can pick up on something as small as you not making her morning coffee to call you on! Yikes! This woman is scarey!

RW, I’m sorry to say that as your describe the situation, I don’t see any real change in her She was going to leave but instead changed up on you just enough to give you hope. And so there she is, safe and secure in foggy groggy land, having her cake and eating it to. So tell me, is my analysis wrong here?

Coach

I'm afraid I have to agree with coach on this one. She is keeping you in such limbo that you are not making any moves. She's giving you just enough hope to keep you from doing anything "drastic" like making her leave or commit to the marriage. My heart hurts for you.

Michele

Coach,

I'm with you 100%. Especially since I just got off the phone with her. I asked once again about the letter she's supposed to write me explaining why she loves me, yeah, I know I wasn't going to bring it up again. She said, she couldn't think of WHY she loves me, and further said I'm comfortable she guesses.

I think at our next counseling I'm going to ask if she's ready to make a 100% committment to the relationship, and if she's not then maybe we need to do the physical seperation until she makes her choice.

I told her my perception of the email she sent me that she had made her choice to commit 100% to the marriage, and I asked her if what she really meant was she was committed to actually working on it. She said yeah. There were more things said, which led me to believe we're doing all that can be done to work on things. We all know here, there are far more, and better things we can do than what little is being done.

I think to truely work on things we both need to be 100% committed to the relationship.

Ok, I'm seeing there being to possible outcomes still. She could actually be sincere, and of course not sincere.

After talking with a friend yesterday, I realized, even if I ask for the physical seperation, she won't go. The reason for this is, she would have to sign a lease somewhere and could cause her problems when she gets a job somewhere. That in itself is of no concern to me. I don't think it will be too much longer before she knows anything about the Lexington opportunity, and if it falls through, she's taking the South Carolina opportunity.

Now, she went to the gym when she got off work yesterday, and then went and cleaned her horse's stall. Well, no biggie really. When she got home, I was in the middle of getting DD(3) out of the bath tub and all dried off and ready for bed. We're talking within 2 minutes she's asked me if everything's ok. I'm like yeah, why? And she said because I hadn't said hi or anything. So, I responded with, sorry, was taking care of DD(3) and turned to her and gave her a hug and a kiss.

It's little things like that, that have me thinking it's actually possible she's sincere. But don't worry, I'm not getting my hopes up, or quitting my job and moving across the country unless things FEEL good. And they still don't.

As far as Plan B, she's leaving, it's just a matter of time. My friend suggested to me, since that's going to happen regardless of what I do, then just in case she is sincere, I should keep Plan A'ing, otherwise I could be shooting myself in the foot.

Well, surprise surprise, yesterday I asked her if we were doing anything for Date night this week, and she said I don't know.

She just called me and asked if I wanted to go see a movie. I said sure, which one? She replied King Arthur of course. Didn't get to talk long, she had to leave for a story, but I said I love you as I was getting off the phone, and she said, I know, then added, I love you too.

Does anyone else think I read too much into everything? Because to me, for her to respond that way, would definitly make it not a reaction, but at the same time, it felt like she was saying it for the reason Michele mentioned earlier.

All in all, I'm trying to put up my own walls of protection, in the event this is a false recovery. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's called self preservation.

Anyway, at least I get to go see a movie! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

RW,

My belief is that one is not in recovery until they stop doing the things that caused the breakdown to begin with.

It greatly concerns me that she has not stopped the internet use. It's one thing to check email, check the weather, etc., but to continue doing what got her to the EA/PA in the first place shows no recovery effort in my mind.

I also can't get over the comment that she can't promise she'll never participate in cyber sex. HUGE red flag. If she is unwilling to commit to that, in my opinion, there is no hope for recovery.

She may be saying things you want to hear, but until her actions meet her words, I would be so careful, if I were you. I don't mean to sound gloomy, but I worry for you.

Comfort level is what she is going for. As long as she is comfortable and keeps you just comfortable enough not to do anything "drastic" she's eating the cake that she's got, so to speak.

Michele

I agree with you Michele. The problem I face is if I bring up she's not stopping what caused the EA/PA in the first place, she'll get defensive and say nothing she does is good enough and she is always wrong.

As a direct result of that, I need our counsler to point out to her what she's doing isn't healthy for ANY relationship. I intend for that and a few other things to be discussed at our next counseling this Wednesday.

Turns out, the editor for the paper in South Carolina asked WW to send him her references when he talked to her last Monday. She did. She used references from the paper where she's working now. One of them was her editor. He took her aside after he talked to the South Carolina editor and told her he had nothing but good things to say to her. He also told her he'd like to see her go to a paper that's still in the company. The Lexington KY paper is in the company and WW expressed she's trying for a position there. He told her he knows the editor there and will call him on Tuesday.

This is how WW expects things to happen. When she gets the job, she'll relocate and work on finding a place for us. I'm supposed to look for a job in the meantime while maintaining our current residence. WW advised Lexington is only 6 hours away and we can commute on weekends. She also mentioned she'd have her horse moved right away though.

Thing here is WW still hasn't verbally committed to the marriage 100%, so I know we're not in recovery. At this point, she'll be relocating at some point in the near future, of that I'm sure. I'm to the point, I'm just going to let her go.

The counselor told me in my last counseling to keep doing what she wants us to be doing and not worry about a job offer until it gets here. Well, my fear, is the things that need to be worked on before that won't be.

I have absolutely no intention of moving anywhere without feeling like we're really in recovery and she's no longer doing the things that are destructive to a relationship.

RW,
I know you've spoken w/ her about it before, and I can't believe she expects you to drop your life to follow while everything is unsettled like this. Proves how much of a fog she's in, I guess.
Keep up your efforts, and I hope the counseling goes OK, although from your trials & tribulations thus far I can't see her suddenly seeing the light or committing to anything that will disturb her little bubble of reality. I sincerely wish you luck though.

Thanks CS. I think I'm surprised at the stage of indifference I've reached. I know I love her, because how all these things make me feel when they happen.

If WW doesn't commit 100% prior to relocating and things REALLY feel like they're getting better, I'll have no choice but to Plan B.

This is one of those issues I plan to bring up in Counseling on Wednesday.

RW -

You have to talk to your wife and explain that you will not be able to go with her under the current conditions.

I was reading an article by Shirley Glass where she said that sometimes when people have a poor relationship with one parent, they marry someone who is strong and dependable. They don't want to repeat the relationship they had with the parent.

But after they get secure in the marriage, then they start to want to work through the relationship with the parent, and somehow make it right. So they have an affair with someone that is not safe and secure.

I think that is my husband. We have been going through this mess for 16 months. He would prefer to stay married to me (safety and security), but wants to spend all of his time with his girlfriend.

The guy even thought he could move in with me, and still continue on with the OW! And he wrote that out of "respect" to me, he was giving me a week's notice. Talk about foggy.

Sorry to threadjack. But I think your wife may be the same way. I think she would be quite content to live this way forever.

I think that's probably going to be brought up in counseling this Wednesday when the counselor finds out WW is very close to a new job.

RW,
I'd rather think you're acting with controlled enthusiasm and optimism while bracing for impact than a "stage of indifference" and rightly so. A person can only be pummeled so many times before they instinctively begin to involuntarily cover their vitals from the blows.
Good luck in counseling, and lay it on the line to her... no give, no get. Again, best of luck.

Well, let's see, how did the weekend go.

Saturday: WW had to work an afternoon shift, and as usual, when she got home, got on the internet.

Sunday: Did some work at the barn, pulling weeds. The ground was damp from rain, was the perfect time for it. I didn't mind it to much, since work is good for me, and the horse hasn't actually done anything to me. Went to WalMart afterwards for some afternoon shopping. WW made a seafood gumbo for dinner, which was actually pretty yummy. Of course, WW was on the internet, but surprise, surprise, was off by 9:15 and asked me to shut her computer down around 10pm.

Monday: Didn't have our lunch date, not too bothered really, we've both managed to stretch this paycheck a little thin. WW managed to initiate some affection today, kissed me bye before she left for work, and hugged me before she went horseback riding after dinner. WW got on the internet for all of about an hour. Wow, 2 days in a row she's off before midnight.

Ok, I see 2 different pictures being painted here. I can't afford to ignore either one. But, I don't know how much longer I can stand her not making a formal decision about staying together or not. Oh, and OM's back in her Yahoo Friends list. Only reason I know this, is because WW called me over to the computer to show me some audibles. Didn't say anything, and walked away from her computer as fast as I could so I wouldn't say anything.

For the record, CS, you're right. I'm super cautious about the situation, and hopeful at the same time. What I hate the most about this, is only time will tell.

WW just called. Best Friend went to the hospital this morning for severe abdominal cramps.

I was actually surprised she called.

RW,
She promised NO CONTACT, you clearly saw the OM on her Yahoo D/M list and yet, you said nothing? Why?

Don't you understand what mixed messages your sending her? It's true that this is what she does to you, but do you really want to play that silly game?

She calls you to the computer...maybe to let you see the OM's name on her list and see what your reaction will be. And your reaction was???

RW, I don't understand. Why is that you don't seem to think that you have the right to tell her when she's making you uncomfortable or unhappy? Or when you catch her lying, how it makes you feel? Why not tell her how it hurts you when she doesn't keep her word to you? Why? And what about that disc she burned? What was that about? Did you ever find out? Did you ever even ask?

RW, (and I know I'm being a real pr#ck today!) as badly as she's behaved it still doesn't absolve you of your responsability. You have to be willing to police your own house. You have to be willing to stand up and set boundaries for her.

She has a right to know what you find acceptable and what you don't. She has the right to a H who cares and loves her enough to say the hard things to her. Otherwise what is she to think? How is she to know? How can you be mad at her after the fact when you never told her what consituted acceptable limits?

coach

Coach,

Our counselor asked us to discuss these kinds of things in counseling. Personally, I'd rather have the unbiased arbitrator there, at least that way someone else can see what I've been talking about, and how WW responds.

Counseling is tomorrow. The lie will be brought up, as well as the OM's name back in the friends list. I also intend to address the amount of time that gets spent online.

Bottom line is this: WW has NOT made the decision to stay together, merely to TRY and work on our issues. I feel it's pointless to waste my breath when she hasn't even committed to the relationship.

Of course, my birthday is this Sunday, and I get to dump all this on her tomorrow night. She's going to be angry, and you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm tired of feeling this way.

RW,
I hear you loud and clear. It just makes me sad. I see you losing your will to struggle yet; I also see how high it gets you when she gives you just a little hope. I sometimes wonder how the good Lord could have created something so seriously flawed as humanity.
Coach

Just had a thought after reading Coach's post, don't mean to slight anyone, but want to describe the picture that just popped into my head.

Picture this, you're on a wooded path, the sky is blue, few clouds in the sky. The grass is green, flowers are blooming, and the song of birds is in the air.

Up ahead, there is a fork in the road, each winding off into the trees, where they lead you can't see. Right there at the fork, is my campfire and my tent. Standing there is me. On one shoulder I have Believer with her halo and angel wings, and on the other shoulder is Coach, with his pitchfork and horns! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I mean no harm, I need a devils advocate, it helps me to keep both pictures being painted by my WW in perspective.

Honestly, I find everyone's advice and opinions highly valuable as I deal with this each day.

Thank you all, and regardless of the outcome of my own personal nightmare, I have all of you I have come to rely on. I'm a much better person as a result of this, regardless of which path I travel down.

Counseling this afternoon. I think I've figured out a way to bring my concerns to light. I intend to start off by asking the counselor how to talk about my concerns when WW always goes defensive and doesn't really hear what I'm trying to say.

I'm hoping the counselor can say/do something to help WW LISTEN to what I want to say without going defensive. I don't want to fight. I don't want to make her angry. I want to discuss issues with the outlook of a positive resolution.

Also, the counselor usually starts off with asking how things are going. I intend to keep quiet and let WW have the floor first. I want to do that because I know as soon as I start talking about my issues, the sirens are going to go off, shields will come up, and she'll go defensive. At that point nothing constructive will come out.

Personally, I think the fact WW gets as defensive as she does is because she must feel some sort of guilt about whatever the issue is and doesn't want to admit it. To her, one of us is right, and the other is wrong. She hasn't accepted that it's ok to have a difference of opinion and that compromise can usually solve that difference of opinion. Then again, this comes back to it appears WW doesn't need to make any compromises about anything, as she seems to be perfect.

These are just my opinions, which may or may not be affected by my frame of mind induced by the trauma of having my entire life ripped to shreds in front of my face.

I don't want to go today, I'm already shaking, think I'm going to take one of my pills before I head out.

RW,
Brace yourself, and hang in there! We all want you to come out of this whole again! Nothing we can say here will calm you before a possible showdown with WW at the counselor, but you know we were praying for the strength you've been showing thus far to bear you through it. No matter which advocate's approach (just kidding!) you were taking at one time or another, you bore through it with your head up. Keep it up.

Ok, well, it went pretty much like I predicted. Here's how it went:

WW started off by saying how nice things have been and the things we've been doing together. I prompted her to tell the counselor about her job prospects, which she did, and further went on say something about new beginnings in a new place.

Well, then it was my turn. So, I direct my question at the counselor, how do I talk about my issues without WW getting defensive and not hearing what I'm saying. WW pipes up and says what kinds of things? And further made a comment about me harboring things and not talking to her.

So, the first thing I brought up was OM's name back in her friends list. Her explanation to that was he sent her a message when she got back from California asking if she was back, and she said she sent him a 1 word response, yes, and hasn't talked to him since. I can neither confirm nor deny this, as I'm not using spyware, or hovering around her computer when she's on it. She even went so far to say I could sit there next to her if I wanted to. Somehow, I don't think that's a good idea.

The next thing I brought up was her opinion on honesty, which of course led into the lie about the music CD. Her very first response was about me "rifling" through her purse, she was more focused on me going through her purse, than she was listening to me explain how important honesty is to me, especially after all the damage that's been done to the trust in our relationship. I explained, I didn't set out to "rifle" through her purse, and wasn't looking for something to confront her with. Her explanation of lying was, she knew the moment I asked her the next day if she made a copy of the cd, that I knew, and had to have gone through her purse and that I was trying to trap her, and that's why she lied. She further said I was jumping to conclusions in thinking she lied because she sent it to someone that I wouldn't approve of, and that the CD she made is at work. I acknowledged what I did was entrapment, only I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time, and I apologized for it. She did not apologize for lying.

The next thing I brought up was the amount of time she spends online, and that what she's doing is the same thing she accused me of. The counselor asked her how much time she spends on the computer, and WW responded with 2 to 3 hours a night. The counselor explained being a mother, wife, and having a horse, that spending 2 to 3 hours a night online, that something else is suffering, whether it be our relationship or her sleep. I said, in a healthy relationship, the only time parents have time to spend together alone is after the kids go to bed. The counselor suggested I try approaching things differently, not saying I have a problem with this, but rather, hey I'd like it if you spent more time with me after the kids go to bed. I said I've tried getting her to do anything with me. WW likes to play Scrabble, and I've offered, but WW says at 10pm at night is too late. I said, oh? well, you play scrabble online that late, what's the difference? She said when she's done playing, all she has to do is close the window, and doesn't have a mess to clean up. I said, it's not like I can't dump the scrabble tiles into the bag.

Here are some things the counselor said:

She pointed out to WW she could see when WW hears something she doesn't like, that she looks away and goes defensive, and attributes it to her being Passive-Aggressive. The counselor told WW that's why I'm so hesitant to bring up anything with her.

Where the CD and lying is concerned, instead of trying to trap WW, I should merely acknowledge knowing she made the CD. WW had said she felt like I was treating her like a child. The counselor explained with the damage done to trust, it could be a long time before I feel the need to question it, and when WW feels like I'm treating her like a child, she should just say I'm done talking about this for now.

Online time, WW admitted to still being mad at me for the time I used to spend online. I mentioned I made a compromise for us, because she made me see how destructive it was, and I asked if she could do the same, and that I wasn't asking for her to give up being online. She said she could.

Oh, and one other thing, during one of the more heated discussions, I actually mentioned I had no intention of relocating anywhere if I didn't feel better about our relationship, and her response was "Fine!". That's encouraging....

The last thing the Counselor said was she knows when we leave we're still going to have our feelings about counseling, and we need to leave what happened in counseling, at counseling, and not discuss any of the issues. Much easier to do these days actually.

WW told me before counseling started she was going riding and brought all her riding stuff with her that day. She was on her cell phone before she ever got out of the parking lot, and I'm sure she was on the phone with her best friend. Oh, btw, best friend had her gall bladder removed because of gall stones.

I made dinner, and got DD(3) ready for bed. WW got home around 8:15pm. Tried to give her a hug and a kiss, and was unable to. So, I went out and sat on the porch steps to have a smoke. WW came out and sat all the way over on the other side of the step. I looked at her and said, I love you. She said, I know. I asked, do you love me? She said, sometimes. I said, seems to me when you love someone, it's not just sometimes.

We went inside and were watching the Democratic Convention, she made some comments here and there, but it didn't take very long for her to fall asleep. She was asleep by 9:15. She didn't get on the computer at all last night. I went to bed at 9:30 and left her sleeping on the couch.

So, here we are this morning. I made the coffee for her, and went in to let her know I was leaving for work. Kissed her on the cheek, and told her to have a nice day, and I loved her. She said bye. okkkkk.

So, I'd be extremely surprised if I even got a call from her today. My birthday is this Sunday, and it's going to be the worst one ever.

RW,
A little devil on your shoulder ha LMAO? That’s what my W (former WW) likes to call me!

On one hand she likens me to the character Tom Cruise played (not Tom Cruise himself, the character…) in the movie Risky Business. She thinks I’m always into something crazy that she wouldn’t approve of. Not damaging crazy mind you. Just adolescent nonsense. On the other hand, however, I’m very consistent in my attitudes. She almost always knows that when she asks for advice, she may not like the answer. In fact, something that I’ve really had to learn with her is to stop offering until asked! That and to just keep my mouth shut and listen.

My W is very left brained. Very! I have to honestly say that I can’t figure out how she ever decided to cheat. Morality and integrity issues aside, trying to imagine her analyzing the act (she analyses everything…EVERYTHING) is one of the funny images that kept me sane through out the nightmare. It’s like I can sit here now, seeing her face in my minds eye, getting undressed for the OM; knowing that what’s going on in her head. She’s trying to decide what to take off first. Her skirt or her shirt! And she’s actually weighing the pros and cons of both! Very important decision for her right? LOL And I laugh at this now! I know. I’m nuts!

But guess what? Nutty as I am, I seem to have this uncanny ability to understand what people are really thinking about in various situations. It’s what I do for a living. Read between the lines and direct the action for a staff of people needing to find solutions to sales problems. So when my WW started doing things that I found out of character, it was fairly easy to came to the right conclusion about what she was doing. What was difficult was making myself believe it and then deciding what to do about it!

With my W it was a fairly strategic problem. Once I stopped vomiting all over the place and decided what I wanted, doing what needed doing was so much easier. For me, the worst had already happened. What else could she do? Leave me? She already had! Yes she was still in our home but not really. Our home was just a warehouse for her body. A place where she slept (most of the time! LOL) Anyway, accepting this was probably the most important realization I came to. It set me free to act. I was no longer afraid of losing her because I had. So what I did was to remind her why she loved me. Pretty simple ha? NOT!

And about your birthday RW. If you let it be the worst one ever then shame on you. Not your W but you. If you want it to be good, then plan something for yourself! FOR YOURSELF! Don’t wait for her or ask her or do anything with her in mind. Do it for yourself. Do what will make you happy. Figure out what it is you want to do and who you want to be there with you. Then invite her to come along. If she does, great! If she doesn’t, better yet! That’s right, better yet. This is your day so be selfish for a change. If she’s going to bring you down, let her stay home and play with her computer. How’s that for “devilish” advice?

Coach

Coach, I'm not calling you Coach anymore, I'm going to call ya Diablo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

A friend of mine, that was my supervisor while I was still in the Air Force, reads this thread, and he sent me an email.

He's coming to town this weekend, and we're going out Saturday night, and then going fishing on Sunday (my birthday).

So, instead of making plans without my WW, I called her and told her he is coming to town and wants to do something with me for my birthday. She said she didn't have any plans. Kind of disappointing, but not really. I haven't had a chance to hang out with Scott in a long time, and I think we're going to have a good time!

On a side note, I did talk to WW today, and at the end of the conversation, she said bye, and I said I love you, and she paused for a moment, and then responded with I love you too. Guess she's cooled off some. I actually thought after saying my peace last night, she'd be done. Guess, she still wants to work out our issues. Personally, I'd like to see more changes, but I need more patience, I'm just concerned her job opportunity is going to get here and we're not going to be where I think we should be before relocating. So, if there is any hope for this marriage, then I need to continue with Plan A, but not at the expense of me. I think yesterday was a good step in that direction. At least WW knows now, she's not the easiest person to talk to, and the counselor saw it, just like I hoped.

Well, I may have an awesome Birthday after all. Watched Master and Commander with WW last night. After the movie was over, we went out on the porch for a smoke, and had general chit chat. While we were out there, she started telling me that she spent some time yesterday looking for a new horse for me. That shocked me! Especially since I have told her I'd like to have another horse, but only if we're together because I just don't know enough yet to keep one on my own.

After our smoke, we went inside and I started cleaning up the Living Room, WW said, you don't have to do that tonight, I'll do it tomorrow. So, I gave her a kiss and a goodnight hug, and said I'll see ya in the morning. As I was about to start down the steps, she asked if I wanted to sleep upstairs. Of course, I said yes.

We were tired, and it only sleeping involved. But, let me tell you. Sleeping downstairs, I get about 4 to 5 hours of sleep a night, and it's full of tossing and turning and nightmares. When I sleep upstairs, with my wife, it's restful. Being with her chases away the demons and nightmares. I love my wife, with all my heart, and I hope she's coming around. After all this time, I just don't know if I have the patience to find out.

My friend, Scott, taking me out tonight, but I don't intend on staying out real late. He's going to take me fishing tomorrow too. I hope you all have a good weekend!

[ July 31, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]

I totally understand your wifes point of view....because I have been in her exact situation.....get her out of it now....shut down the computer....she needs to seperate from him because he is her addiction....I wentr through this and after my lover and I called it quits and I wanted to get my marriage back on track....It hasn't happened my husband can't get over it..because my online lover turned into a real affair.....I blame myself for it every day....I know I was possessed and I wish i could undo everything...I want my husband back....so our son will have the family he deserves....but it's too late from what my husband says....I screwed up our family...for my son and myself....don't let your wife make the same mistake.....take action now...before it's too late.

Edit: ^_^; sorry just realized how old this post was

[ August 01, 2004, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: lost lamb ]

RW- HappyBirthday -

I hope it is a good one. Fishing should be fun, especially with your friend.

Yoo hoo. Did you have such a good birthday that you can't post anymore?

Sorry Believer! I don't find much need to get online when I'm at home. Do most of my surfing from work! You know, when I should be working... hehe.

Here's something you all should get a kick out of. Turns out my friend, has been posting to my thread and I didn't even know it was him! That's right, ConfusedScott, is my friend Scott!

CS: I had a good time this weekend, and I'm glad you were part of it!

I'm guessing something happened at our last joint counseling. She's hardly been online at all, except for Saturday, she spent a good part of the day online chatting. Wasn't with OM, but a couple other people. Didn't really affect me much, except when I got home from being out with CS. And I'm not going to complain, because for 3 out of the last 4 nights, I've slept upstairs WITH my W.

Money was a really tight this weekend. I'm ashamed to say it's my fault, but W was unable to even get me a card or bake me a cake. I told her it really wasn't that big deal, and we could celebrate my birthday with dinner and a movie on Date Night. We're going to go to the same place CS took me, it's an international cuisine buffet, called Emperor's Wok. Then we're going to see "The Village".

All in all, I think we're headed to recovery, but I'm hesitant to say that. I'll wait for about a month, if things are still going the way they are right this moment, then I'll say we're in recovery. This has been an awesome weekend, much more so than I expected.

Things are still going good. It's odd, after so long of things being horrible, that things are feeling better.

WW staying offline for the most part and extending affection. She isn't saying I love you or trying to hold my hand, but she says I love you too, and touches me.

Last night she asked if I'd like to sleep upstairs in her bed again, which makes 4 out of the last 5 nights. When she came to bed, I was facing away from her side of the bed, she kissed my shoulder and wrapped her arm around me.

It's almost like it's too good to be true. Seems to me somewhere I've heard if it seems too good to be true, it probably isn't.

I love my wife, and this feels good. I'm scared, is this normal?

Went to the gym yesterday, felt freakin' awesome! I'm ready to get in shape, I'm tired of my sedintary lifestyle. No more just sitting around the house in front of the computer for me, unless it's with my wife.

Took DD(12) for registration for 7th grade yesterday. I don't remember school being so freaking expensive when I was growing up.

Spent the rest of the evening with my wife while she played NeverWinter Nights. One might think it could be boring sitting next to someone playing a computer game, but I actually found it fun. I was very careful not to do any of the things that always bothered her in the past. Like telling her how to play, or what she was doing wrong. And I was sure to tell her what a good job she was doing, even said I few times I didn't think I could have done as well.

Stayed up way too late last night. Went out for a smoke around 11pm and when I mentioned getting some sleep, wife made a disappointed sound. So, I said, but I think I can stay up awhile longer.

She was having a tough time with a situation in the game, and asked my advice. At first my advice wasn't too helpful, but it was advice that was sound and relied heavily on chance. She eventually succeeded and was quite thrilled. I told her she did an awesome job!

After this we went out for another smoke, when we came inside, she asked if I was coming to bed. I immediately noticed she didn't ask if I wanted to sleep upstairs in her bed, but if I was coming to bed. I said, yep.

Was very nice, DD(3) stayed in her own bed. This in itself is a hurdle we've not been able to jump. On a side note, we ran out of night time pull-ups, and have been cutting down on DD(3)'s liquid intake before bedtime. The first night, she had an accident, but for the last 2 nights, we've been accident free!

I'm still in disbelief of the turnaround where things are concerned. I'm going to continue Plan A'ing my butt off, and I'm going to bring up in counseling next week about my fears of this feeling too good to be true. I want to believe this is the road to recovery, and I'm scared it's not. I'm thinking this isn't a bad thing to discuss, and I'd like to think my wife could empathize.

So glad to see the turnaround. Go ahead and do some posting on recovery. Spiderslayer used to say everytime she posted there, something awful would happen. But she is still happily in recovery.

I am so happy for you. Looks like things are looking up. Don't be afraid, you have been doing a great Plan A for a long time.

You know your wife well. There are many things you can do without money. Spend time with her and Star. Take pictures. Give her emotional support.

Just relax and be your wonderful new self.

RW- Also please join my thread on general questions, called Betrayed Husbands.

Thanks for the support Believer.

Last night, we all went to the barn. On the way there, for the first time in a long time, my wife actually put her hand on my leg while we were driving to the barn. I cleaned her horse's stall while she was riding, and then went and sat and watched her ride. After she was done, DD's and myself got to ride her horse as well. I didn't have control, but that was ok, considering her horse isn't really accustomed to anyone riding her other than my wife.

After we got home, and showers were had by all, I got DD(3) to sleep and sent DD(12) to bed. Wife was chatting on the computer and listening to some of those music files she spent so long trying to download from her email. What bothered me, is she used headphones to listen to these songs. She has also expressed there is nothing with the guy that sent them to her. I know she hasn't been online chatting much, so I can't really complain about that. She did stay up late though, and could have ended up chatting with anyone.

While she was sitting there chatting and listening to music, she made an observation about what I was watching on tv. I responded with there wasn't anything on. She said something along the lines of well, go to bed then. That sent up a red flag, not sure why though. I decided I was going to go out and having a smoke before going to bed. She came out too. After I was finished, I said, ok, well, I'm going to bed then, and asked her upstairs or downstairs, and she said whichever. I'm guessing she's being as indifferent as I am, neither of us wanting to make a big deal of it. So, I decided since she put the ball in my court, I would make the choice to sleep upstairs. Not sure when she came to bed, but when she did, my back was once again to her side of the bed, and she cuddled up to me and wrapped an arm around me. I rolled over enough to see her face, and kissed her, which she returned. Then we went to sleep.

I'm considering asking her today, what in the world could she be chatting about so late at night for so long.

She had some things we were supposed to talk about last night, but after getting on the computer, that was it for the night. We were supposed to look at the budget too.

Tonight is supposed to be date night, but I don't think we have anything concrete established. At some point I guess I'll have to ask what we're doing. The only problem is, she got a late start this morning because DD(3) shut off her alarm, and she was running late, not to mention, DD(3) was being crabby, and peed in her/our bed. Seems she's having a bad day today, and not sure I want to say/do anything to make it more difficult.

Guess the best thing to do is to see how things go on their own.

RW,
Sorry I haven't been on and caught up w/ your posts for a couple of days. Work has been pushing my buttons > <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Narrowly avoided a mullti-state road trip this week.
Anyway, wanted to say "Dude! What's up!" and comment on one of your statements from your last post .
You said she stayed online, but you were supposed to talk about the budget and a few other things. I think you could have broached the subject without being taken as a confrontation, and shouldn't have let it go. I would think a casual "Did you still want to take some time and go over this before it gets late?" as you saunter by should have gently redirected her attention and jogged her memory. (Now that you're working out, you should be able to saunter, LOL). Just present the option, and let her decide to make a move or not.
Good to hear you and the DDs rode the horse. Sounds like some quality time, although you got the fun job first. Been there, done that (but we had cows). Are the girls noticing the change, do you think?
Although it might briefly inflame the situation for you ask about the sudden change, if she has really come around, the subject should be approachable. Good luck to you (from me & the Mrs.), in more ways than one.
So when are we gonna get to do that fishin trip? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

RW,
Sorry if I came across on that last post as harsh, and I know it's a day late and $1.50 short! But I know you deal with all kinds of (annoying) people at work with great tact, and know you can use that style at home too. Just imagine you're talking to some O-6 on the JICTRANS staff (but don't call her sir), and you'll be all right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Anyways, keep on plugging, show her you don't want to give up. Later!

Well, here's some interesting reading. I'll apologize in advance, as this may be a long post.

DDay initiated a lot of changes in my life. One of those things was WW complaining about me going to bed at 10pm every night. Well, when you have to get up at 5:30am you have to go to bed earlier. I work 7am to 3pm, and WW works 9am to 5pm. Well, I decided I could afford to stay up another hour, so for the last 5 months, I've been going to bed between 11pm and 11:30pm.

This last week I've been sleeping upstairs with WW. Well, I was staying up till my new times before going to bed, but I was doing this in the living room. There were a few nights where WW actually said, why don't you go to bed, which I did since it was about that time anyway.

In addition to this, at last counseling I asked if WW could compromise her being on the computer time, since she's on the computer most every night. She said she could compromise. Well, last night, WW was on the computer, and at 10:30pm I decided to go out for a smoke, then I was going to bed. Well, WW came out and asked why I had been staying up late. So I pointed out what I mentioned in the above paragraph about staying up later because she used to complain about me going to bed every night at 10pm. I asked why she was asking, and she said she felt like I was only staying up to keep tabs on her.

I then proceeded to talk to her about the things I intended to talk to her about in counseling today. Her telling her best friend that I won't let her go to the Literotica get-together this weekend, which I never said any such thing, her only hearing I had no intention of relocating anywhere, when in fact I said I had no intention of relocating anywhere without feeling better about our relationship, and us being low on money, and she felt the need to renew her monthly subscription to DeviantArt knowing we are short on money.

Of course, this all led into a great big can of worms, as she always gets mad when I have a problem with something that she's doing. She brought up my financial irresponsibility, which steps have been taken to curb forever. She further went on to express that her whole day belongs to someone else, and that "her" time starts when the kids go to bed.

She also mentioned she feels Counseling is a waste of time and that we're only treading water. I'm appearantly not allowed to want to spend more time with her than per our arrangement through counseling, which is Sunday family day, Monday lunch date, and date night.

I asked her if she loves me, and her reply was sometimes. About a month ago, I was prepared to begin Plan B, and told WW it was time for a physical seperation. She seemed happy about finally getting me to agree to that, and imagine my surprise a few days later when she says she doesn't want that anymore. Last night, I asked her why she changed her mind. Essentially, she couldn't bear the idea of not being with the girls every day, and money would be a problem. I translate this to mean, it's conveinent.

After this whole talk was over, I said I was going to bed, and she asked if I was sleeping downstairs, and I said if she wanted, and she said yes. So, I'm back downstairs....more sleepless nights and nightmares.

Counseling this afternoon, I wish I knew where this is going.

Scott, I'll respond to ya later. But, you didn't come across as harsh.

RW,
Was just checking out some other posts, went over to General Questions, and just happened to see your reply today in "Loyal husbands (and MB experts) come here". Looks like WW is back to poking you with sharps sticks, but witholding just enough so you won't use her as a lawn dart. (read: "pitch her to the curb")
I'm so sorry to hear that after apparent improvements in your efforts, she was onlt biding time. Man, I can feel your pain and agony in your post. Your translation of her comments sounds accurate, and she must still just be keeping a seat warm in the house until she can afford to strike out independently.
Good luck tonight in counseling.

RW, I apologize... either I'm going blind, or losing my mind. You made the same post here. Must be the excitement of the day. It was mentioned to me today to come in for that possible job offer Fri. AM, and my mind is abuzz. Hope counseling goes well (calm, not too much excitement, seeing as how the surprises have been revealed) though.

I have a link I want to share, it's about passive/aggressive disorder, which our counselor diagnosed WW with. The counselor hasn't decided if it's just P/A traits, or if she actually has a disorder.

Passive/Aggressive

Counseling went pretty good, considering I was the only one there. WW had to cover a police chase fatality and didn't get home until after 9pm.

In counseling, we talked about passive/aggressive tendencies and the relation to recent events. The counselor further explained that our 6 month agreement was to give WW time to decide if she wants to stay in this relationship or not. It was also designed to give us time to heal. The counselor further mentioned, she wanted it for me most of all. All in all though, I've come a long way since she first saw me. When I first went in, she said I was a basketcase. Now, I have a grip on myself, my life, and the situation. I'm in a much better situation to progress further. The problem is WW being passive/aggressive is stuck, and will remain stuck until she actively makes a choice to change things.

Trying to tell someone they are passive/aggressive is like trying to tell an alcoholic they're an alcoholic.

Understanding passive/aggressive better makes a lot of things make sense, that I've been confused about since this all started. It also changes my perspective on the situation. Understanding what's going on, makes it much easier to cope with the situation.

On a side note, talked with WW after counseling, she was on her way to a news conference concerning the police chase fatality. She asked me to go clean her barn stall for her, which I agreed to. Told her very little about counseling, didn't want her to know we were talking about passive/aggressive traits. I made a request, I told her I wanted to ask her a question, and I wanted her to wait until I was finished talking before making an answer. I asked her to consider letting me continue to sleep upstairs, since I have a hard time sleeping downstairs. I said I could sleep in my own zip code, no hugging, cuddling, kissing, groping, or anything unless she wanted it. Her first response was, ok, I'll sleep downstairs. So I responded with, after 7 years, I'd like to think we'd be able to sleep in the same bed. She said fine, but I can't make any comments on what time she comes to bed. I said ok, since all I want is to be able to get a good nights sleep.

I not only got to sleep upstairs last night, but when she came to bed, she cuddled up to me and put her arm around me. Talk about wow.

I'm still getting I love you too's, which to me is a big thing considering where this was a few months ago. I get kisses and hugs, however, she doesn't seek these things from me, it happens when I seek them from her.

I'm going to take my counselor's advice and stick to the agreement. Monday lunch dates, date night, and Sunday family day. I'm not supposed to ask for more time, but if she wants more time then I give it.

Basically, I need to give her as much space as possible, and Plan A my butt off until the end of October. Won't be able to do anything else until then.

Scott, good luck on the job interview, if anyone deserves it, it's you. You've been a great friend, and we need to come up with a camping/fishing trip. No kids or wives, just us guys.

Well, WW's best friend was in St. Louis for Literotica get together. WW decided she was going to St. Louis when she got off work yesterday to see her best friend. She told me she was going to be hanging out in best friend's hotel room, but I don't know if they did or not, honestly I don't want to know.

She came home around 2am. We talked a little, she asked how my evening was, and I asked how hers was, not too many details either way.

Guess we'll see how the weekend goes, but I'm still here alive and kicking.

Sounds like you are getting to the bottom of this, and now have a possible explanation for her strange behavior. I think that is very promising. Hang in there.

Believer: Yeah, everything is finally starting to make sense. Now I understand, it's easier to see when I'm dealing with "Bad Jenn", and I can react appropriately.

One of the aspects of P/A relationships is the person involved with a P/A person become to feel low self-esteem and low self-worth. P/A's have a way of making their partner believe everything is all their fault.

I really know now, I'm not responsible. Yes, I made some mistakes that didn't help the situation, but this nightmare is not of my making and has NOTHING to do with me. Knowing this, I've found the inner peace I've been trying so hard to find. I know my self esteem and self worth are just as good as I always thought they were.

As a result, I am doing my best to Plan A as much as possible to "Good Jenn" and avoiding "Bad Jenn" as much as possible. "Bad Jenn" still has to be dealt with though, boundaries have to be enforced. Sadly enough, this requires a LOT of tact to avoid LB's.

But know this, at this point, I'm in a very good place. My counselor agreed with me last counseling. So now, I just need to weather the storm until the end of October when WW has to make her decision.

I will continue to post the trials and tribulations of living/coping with someone who is P/A. I think LINY and Brown will be of great help as they are dealing with exactly what I'm dealing with. I never once thought WW could be as jumbled as Brown was, but now I see it for myself. She doesn't know if she's coming or going from one day to the next.

I know who I am, and where I am, I just don't know where I'm going...

Well, seems I have found myself a nice thread in GQII about Passive/Aggressive. I think it'll get more traffic and possibly/hopefully more moral support.

It gets incredibly difficult to persevere as each day passes. I'm holding onto the end of October, as that'll be the point WW has to make a choice, stay married and make needed changes despite her ignorance of her P/A, or go our seperate ways.

This past weekend was ok, don't recall seeing much of Mr. Hyde, then again, don't remember seeing much of WW at all. When WW was home, had some good times with Dr. Jekyll. I think I should probably stop calling her Mr. and just make it Mrs. Hyde.

Ok, on that note, moving to my new thread in GQII, here is the link:

Passive/Aggressive?

Fight the good fight!