Sounds promising, just keep up doing what you are doing. You have planted the seed about physical seperation. She will be thinking about what that would be like.

RW, her response to you is classic. By moving into new territory with her, you’ve added the element of accountability to the equation. Now you’ve made the issue NOT what she says, but what she DOES! Very important.

So what’s her response? A very nebulous kind of “I’ve been thing and this isn’t really going to be an issue.” Translation, “Moving or thinking about moving isn’t what I want to do right now so I won’t deal with it. I’ll just hold him off for a while ‘till I decide what I do want to do.” Further, she’s probably thinking, “he’ll be so happy that I’ve intimated that I’ve made him my choice that he won’t peruse the matter.”

RW, at this point you need to push the issue. Not to do so sends the message back to her that more of the same is OK with you. The door is now open for you to have a respectful Plan A style, conversation with her regarding your feelings…on everything!

This is your opportunity to dissolution her of any idea that you’re some dummy that doesn’t know what’s really going on. It’s your chance to explain to her, (in the most respectful way possible) that although you’ve been cognoscente all along to her cheating and lying and lack of willingness to follow through on her promises, you’ve chosen to stay the course because you believe that she and you staying together is what’s really best for all. Further, it’s your chance to tell her that it’s no longer about what she is saying she will do…it’s about what she is willing TO DO!

And RW, I would have a list of things you need her to do, at hand. A list that encompasses a recovery plan setting boundaries and placing limits. And guess what? If she wants time to consider or equivocates in any way, your answer should be “that’s fine with me! Just please do it from somewhere else. When are you moving out?”

Coach

Well, sent an email to WW this morning, saying I was curious about what she was thinking about that caused this change. She replied with wow, you sound like you want me to move out! So I called her to explain myself, because that's not what I was saying at all.

She said when she saw the job listings for Lexington KY she realized when she's thought of the future, I've always been a part of it. She further said she didn't know where her head's been.

I asked if the I love you I got the other day was because she decided she did in fact love me. She said yes. Now, in WW's eyes, the problem in our relationship didn't start because of OM, but long before OM. I agree with that, but OM is a factor that has to be dealt with. She got upset, and said something about me dwelling on things she felt I shouldn't be dwelling on, rather I should be focusing on us. I explained I want to focus on us, but for me OM is between us.

WW further said she was concerned by giving 100% NC with OM, that it would escalate and I would end up demanding she doesn't talk to anyone. She even went so far as to express her concern of how best friend would be treated. I explained, I don't hate best friend, I understand what she did, and why. I understand how she feels about WW and that she wants WW to be happy with whatever choice she makes.

Here's the shocker, WW actually said she thought she should be able to stay friends with OM and stay in contact. I explained that would be like pouring salt in a wound.

To me, like I've said before, I want only 2 things: 100% committment to the marriage, and 100% NC with OM. Everything else is negotiable. I told her, that's why we're going to counseling, but she can't help us, if we're not both in it for the long haul.

The conversation got cut short due to she had an appointment. But she did say now she's not so sure we can do this. It all boils down to what is she willing to do to work this out.

Before this conversation she asked if I wanted to go out on Date Night and even suggested something for us to do. I said sure, sounds like fun. Now I wonder if it's going to happen.

This flip-flopping is driving me crazy. But she has to see I'm firm about 100% NC with OM.

Here's an email I just received from WW:

DISCLAIMER: names changed to protect the innocent and some not so innocent

I'm going to try to explain it, but I probably won't do very well since I manage to **** everything most of the time anyway. I believe what happened, at the beginning, was that I felt taken for granted, ignored and not appreciated at all. I didn't feel loved, and I need to feel that. No, I don't want to be the center of someone's universe, that's just too much pressure, but I do need to feel that I'm special and frankly, I didn't. I felt that the only special thing to you was YOU. I was loving you, but thought my love was being wasted on someone who just didn't give a ****. My love is worth more than that, and I am worth being treated like I matter. The relationship felt old and tired and BORING. You know how much I despise being bored. So, I was open to someone that could offer me what you weren't. I found OM. And I think, more than anything, I fell in love with the way he treated me, the way he talked to me, the way he openly showed me that he loved me, something you didn't. He was new, he was exciting, he was different than the same ole same ole.

I thought I didn't love you anymore, but lately, yes, even after meeting OM a month ago, I'm thinking differently. I don't know if I ever really stopped loving you, I just re-directed it because I wasn't getting it in return. I think it really hit me about a week ago when I sent off all those resumes. When I started thinking about getting a new job somewhere, I got excited, and I imagined what it would be like. In each case, you and the girls were there with me, not OM. Then when I started talking to you about the Lexington job, I knew that I wanted you and the girls to be with me, and I started thinking of all the dreams we could fulfill that we've talked about for so long. That told me a lot, of course, I questioned it, who wouldn't? But it also made me sit back and really just think about things and be honest with myself, something I don't think I've been doing. I do love OM, but it's a "new" love, something exciting. I've tried to imagine having anything more than what I have now with him, and I can't. I thought I could, but I can't. We are similar in many ways, but far too different in too many other ways for anything permanent to ever happen. The feelings I have for him are fading, I still care for him, yes, but it's not what I thought it was.

I don't want to leave, and it's not because it would be an incredible pain in the [censored] for both of us, but because I realized that we do have something. Yeah, right now it's kind of in shreds, but I think it can be mended. What I think I need is more excitement....I want to get goosebumps and feel that tingling heat in my belly when you touch me. I want to get excited again about being close to you, making love with you, instead of seeing it as a "chore," which is what it had become. I do want to share things with you, and I haven't been because I'm still scared of completely opening up and exposing myself to you. I'm afraid that if I get emotionally naked in front of you, you will use that to your advantage to tell me what an awful person I am and how I just can't be trusted.
I want to be able to trust YOU again, but I can't trust you if you don't trust me.

I can't promise I'll never have cybersex with someone again...I enjoy it, and most of the time, in the past, you were the recipient of how it left me feeling: all wet and horny. We need to figure out a way to inject a little excitement and "newness" into our relationship, both emotionally and sexually. I'm not quite sure how to do that, but I'm willing to work at it.

Well, I don't really know what else to say, but I had to get this off my chest and let you know how I'm feeling.

Wow, what a turn-around. I think she is really being honest. Double up on meeting those EN's!

WW called, she just got a call on one of her resumes, for North Carolina. They want her to send in 2 more clips.

I asked her if she wants to hold out for Lexington KY. She said, she's going to send the clips, but she's not received any offers yet.

What timing....

I can hardly contain myself, and I'm not talking about the call on the resume.

You have been very strong and patient for a long time, so try not to expect too much. But I think the timing is great. At least she has started questioning herself. I see this as a turning point. Hang in there.

WW told me on the phone one of the things she was concerned about was how things would be between me and her best friend.

I explained my perspective on her best friend, and offered to call her.

Well, I called her, and one of the things she told me was she talked to WW after our first conversation this morning, the one where I said OM had to be gone 100% forever. Best friend told me she told WW if she was going to commit 100% to the marriage then OM needed to be gone. I think for the first time ever, best friend and I agree on something.

All in all, best friend and I are ok. I'm not happy about being hurt by the situation, but I fully understand her perspective in regards to the role she played in all this.

Something she and I don't see eye to eye on is how the trust issues need to be worked on. WW and I both agree, obviously from her email, that we can't have blind trust in each other. This can't turn into a situation that feels like a parent/child relationship, it won't work that way. So I want to see what our counselor has to say about how we should handle it. I think I would much rather take the professional's advice than best friends. I know there are going to be situations where I'm not going to have any choice but to trust WW. But that doesn't mean it's not going to cause me any angst.

Oh, and don't worry, my guard is still up. There is so much that still needs to be worked on. At least WW is demonstrating affection for me now and telling me she loves me. I even told her I understand she doesn't want me to feel like everything is suddenly ok and that I can just move back into the bedroom. I told her, I understood that and I'm not ready to just move back into the bedroom. I did offer my solution of 1 night a week for the first month, then 2 nights a week for the second month and so on. Depending on how things work out, that solution can be modified however we feel.

One thing is clear though, we will continue with our date schedule as originally outlined by the counselor when this all started. I decided along the way, I don't want to give that up ever. We just need to figure out how to keep it from feeling routine.

There is so much to work on, and I don't even know where to begin, but I know we have to use baby steps. I personally don't think I could handle anything faster. I obviously have a lot of issues I need to work out.

I did ask WW if OM knew of this, and she said no, and she doesn't intend to let him know until after she gets back from California, she explained this was because at that point there would already be 10 days of NC. I don't know if she thinks that would be easier or not. Somehow along the way I've got to get her agree to let us do it together. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with her doing it over the phone.

I'm in a cacophony of emotions at the moment. Part of me is like, yeah, right, and part of me is like OMG.

I actually started crying on the way home from work. I just wish there was some way she could comprehend exactly how I feel about her and what she means to me. I think I'll wait to move to the recovering forum until I know we're definitly on that road, meaning she's verbalized 100% committment to the marriage, and 100% NC with OM. I'm hoping that will take place in counseling when she gets back from California.

If you want to, check out the "moving forward" post in general questions. There are many WW's there and they are moving through the pain of withdrawal. It might give you some insite.

I hope it will not be too painful for you to read about their feelings.

hey bud, no shame in tears, I actually started tearing up myself when i read the posts of the last few days... its like reading history all over again...almost to a t.....when i told my WIFE she SHOULD move and got a backbone about everything.... my friend im happy for you... it doesnt mean the end of it all but maybe the start of something that will blossom into an amazing thing....
"life is too short to drink cheap beer! "

I'm not sure I realized what things would be like if we ever got to this point. I think for the first time since this all started, I actually feel like WW is trying.

I'm trying to meet her EN's as much as she'll let me, but at times I'm getting close to overdoing it. We both acknowledge there is are a lot of things that need resolved, but can only be resolved through time and patience.

I won't bring up NC with OM again, until our counseling session after they get back from California. After her best friend agreed with me that OM needs to be 100% out of the picture, I'd like to think she'll stick to it.

Breathing easier these days, but still feel like I'm walking on eggs, but for different reasons. I think what surprises me the most is the feeling of a huge weight being lifted off my shoulders.

We went out for Date Night last night, and we ended up talking about what we're looking for out of our relationship, how we'd like things to be, definitions of commitmants, etc. It's all about redifining our relationship with our eyes wide open. I pointed out this is about compromise and negotiation.

From her email, it's obvious the 2 most things she wants to work on is emotional and sexual. Sounds good to me, I guess knowing the problem(s) doesn't always make the solutions easier. I guess this is where our counselor should help us.

I did find a couple of articles on MSN this morning that I sent links to WW for. They were "Get Closer - Even Now" and "12 Ways to Keep You're Relationship Thriving". They seems to be some good ideas on how to work on both emotional and sexual needs, as well as other areas.

Well, I would start preparing myself for recovery. I understand it is the hardest part of all of this.

Be sure to read all the information on the home page about restoring the marriage, overcoming resentment, and reconciliation.

Good luck to you both.

RW,
I’m happy that you’re happy. But I would feel remiss if I didn’t remind you what happened last time your “still” WW took a little vacation on her own.

Also, forgive the redundancy but please remember the following:

“My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.
It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again.”
Dr. Willard Harley

coach

RW,
I don't want to rain on your parade. I've been following your thread since the beginning, but there is something in your WW email that keeps nagging at me . . . she wrote

can't promise I'll never have cybersex with someone again...

Isn't that the issue here? Didn't her Affair start out that way?

RW - I am assuming that recovery is going well. Where are you?

Coach: This vacation is with the girls to WW's mom's house. There is no internet connectivity, and I know WW's mom would never tolerate it. And there is no way I'm ever going to back down from 100% NC with OM.

Playedout: Yeah, that's bothering me too.

Believer: I'm not going to say we're in recovery just yet. Plan A maybe. Getting mixed vibes.

I don't think WW has the integrity for 100% NC with OM. The problems we're still faced with are the problems with our relationship before OM ever came into the picture, not to mention OM isn't even out of the picture yet. I'm not sure to what extent the contact is still there, but I know they post comments to each other's pictures on Deviant Art.

I tell you this though, I have no intention of moving anywhere without proof there is 100% NC with OM, which WW is supposedly going to initiate when she gets back from California.

Zero steps have been taken to work on the problems in our relationship. WW still spends all hours at night online chatting and surfing Deviant Art. I will say this though, I do get I love you too's every now and again. She still isn't initiating any affection though. She keeps talking about me pushing, and the walls still being up. This is really frustrating. I'm looking forward to her being gone for 10 days. Should have joint counseling when she gets back, guess I'll have to say something about all this.

On a lighter note, WW and I actually made breakfast together on Sunday. Went to the barn with her and took some pictures of her riding. Then we all went out and watched fireworks.

I think I'm starting to understand the problem here. She thinks I'm boring. My circle of knowledge about different things is limited, but she says I can change that.

Jump over to general questions and check out Ark's post on Plan A. It is great.

Believer: Ark's Plan A thread is exactly how it's been since she sent me the email, that is until yesterday. WW went to bed quite upset last night, as did I, mostly due to talking about her viewpoint on my faults, i.e. I'm boring.

If she truely expects me to relocate with her somewhere, and be a couple, then we need to feel like a couple, and right now, I don't feel it.

Ok, back to square one, no talking about relationships, enjoy life, and be sure to invite WW to enjoy it with me. Got it.

Okay, now all we have to find out is are you boring or is it her fogtalk? Give us a rundown. Do you work? Do things fun? Have hobbies and interests? Or are you a couch potato?

Well, I think she's right, I am boring. My main interest used to be computers. But, since this all started, I have a hard time enjoying them. Mostly I've been trying to find other things to do.

She explained when we talk she wants to be able to talk about other things besides computers or my job, which is computer related.

I don't watch much TV. But I like to read, no real hobbies, but I like to do a lot of different things. There are things we enjoy together, but nothing that I'm passionate about. We both like horses, hiking, biking, camping, etc. Personally, I don't see why I need to be passionate about any one thing. Seems to me just being able to enjoy whatever I'm doing is good enough for me. Nothing compares to the enjoyment I got from messing with computers.

I sent an email to WW this morning telling her about my perceptions of our conversation last night and why. The one important thing I didn't mention was my understanding of why talking about our relationship is a bad thing, due to it focusing on the negative. But I understand a good Plan A eliminates the negatives without requiring a lot of discussion on them. The only real thing the needs to be pressed is NC with OM, which will happen when she gets back from California.

I apologized for my persistant chatter about our relationship, and she knows I understand how it's not helpful. We honestly had a good weekend, and it focused on what Plan A should be about. I messed it up by going back into the relationship issues, yet again.

I've had a lot of patience just to get through the last 4 months, and I'm trying not to lose patience now. But, like I mentioned before, I'm concernced about her getting a job and us relocating before our relationship feels more comfortable. I'm guilty of trying to rush things, and in this situation, I can't. It's hard to go with the flow.

One good thing though, doesn't look like I ruined anything, after talking to her, I said I love you, and got an I love you too in return. It's not about what I'm not getting from her, it's about what I'm giving that she feels I haven't been for so long. Trying to stay focused.