I think I'll hang out here for awhile, it's been my home for the last 3 months.

Oh, by the way, got an email from WW saying she told him that they can no longer be in contact.

Then she asked if I had any comment, I basically said I understood how hard this is going to be for her, and I asked how she was going to avoid contact since he's so deeply ingrained in her online world. I told her I'd be here for her if she'd let me.

She said she did it over the phone, since she's not heartless, uh huh, and she didn't handle it well at all, and he handled it okan and understood. She further said she won't call him or respond to anything posted on Deviantart website, and she won't respond to any of his comments on her online journal, I of course still don't have access to this journal. He further said he'd back away and let her do what she needed to do. As far as chatting is concerned she said she wouldn't use AIM, and she'd just use Yahoo if she wants to talk to Jane.

Guess we'll see how this goes, keep ya'll posted.

Well, from the looks of it, she's not planning on having direct contact with him, however she refuses to remove his access to her online journal, etc. She won't call him, or email him, or chat with him. BUT, they can pass messages back and forth verbally through WW's friends.

I'm better understanding what she's doing here. She's setting us up for failure again. She thinks by doing this she can prove that it will never work, and by not completely removing him from her life, she's right. She's not doing this to see if we can every be anything more, she's doing it to prove it won't.

Knowing this, I won't say anything to her about it, not going to use spyware, just going to start saving my money for the inevitable. I'll try and bring some of this up in counseling, but I'm not sure it'll be worth it. I was prepared for it to be over at counseling on Wednesday, so I'm still mentally prepared, but my chest seems to still be arguing. I won't lie, I still love her, but I'm not sure she even realizes what she's doing. All I know, we're set up for failure, again.

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: RWukovich ]</small>

Any possibility that she would post here?

I seriously doubt it, why do you ask?

Since she enjoys being online, I thought she might be interested. I think she needs to hear things from someone besides you.

I agree, but I'm not sure she'd want to subject herself to this environment. She doesn't like being judged. I could mention it, but I'm not sure anything will happen. We'll see.

Talked with WW, she's beginning to start withdrawel I think. I don't know how to handle what she's going through. I want to comfort her, but at the same time I feel she resents me for her deciding to do this.

I'm guessing I just give her space, and try to be as understanding as I can, but I can't help feeling guilty. I mean, she'd still be happy with OM at the moment if she hadn't felt like I forced her to do this.

My big question though, is the partial NC that she's initiated going to be enough? Somehow, I don't think so. As long as he's there, the temptation will be too great. I have no idea how she's going to handle this. I feel sorry for her, really I do.

We're taking the kids to a rodeo tonight, alone time with me is very out of the question at the moment. She purposely came home late last night, and I'm not sure we're going to have much of a Family Day on Sunday. I think I'll offer to go out alone and do something with the kids. Wouldn't be surprised if the first thing she did was jump on the freaking phone. But, I can't jump to those conclusions, because I have to work on my trust as well. Even though, I have my doubts about us because of her approach to this, I need to work on my trust, or I'll never be able to trust any other woman. It's just too much hurt in so short of a time. I'll try to keep you all posted, but I refuse to get online unless she is, so if she doesn't get online, neither will I. Could be Monday or Tuesday before I'm back.

Take care.

RW,
just one question. what are you going to do if you find out that she's lying? lying about no contact, lying about trying to work on the marriage? just plain lying. i mean you have to consider that this is at least a possibility! after all recent events don't exactly provide a testimony to her integrity in these matters. and the way you make it sound...staying in the hpouse for the time being is something that she wants.
coach

RW: Couple of comments for you.

First, I know you can't control her. But if she's not playing by the rules then it is time to reup with the landlord under your name only and out she goes, though I wouldn't tell her that just yet. I think I should have actually put this item last after the next two items.

Secondly, her form of NC is not truly No Contact. You need to pull out the old SAA books or get a sample letter here online and tell her that her form of NC is unacceptable and that she must send OM this letter (as she revises it to her/your situation and get your approval). She could email it to OM, but it has to be full NC with OM. If she doesn't put a time frame on it, then that may mean when she does break NC, then she's basically giving up, but you cross that bridge at that time. What does she say about any of the Harley books? Has she read any? From what I've read of your posts, it seems she wants to do what she wants to do. Though her recent actions of giving it one last chance is a good sign, but with the betrayal issue it throws up red flags as wanting to stall for time. And thus that is why she is keeping that little door open to at least communicate indirectly to OM.

Thirdly, last week, the W and I were seriously struggling. So much to the point, that I started LB'ing big time last Friday night. Just trying to stir up a fight (we hardly ever fight as we are both conflict avoiders). I'm not really sure how it happened, but somehow my W decided to start posting here (I had invited her here and she had been reading my posts, so that must have had something to do with it). But anyhow, she posted to one of my threads and I figured out it was her on the 2nd post. Anyway, long story short, it felt like the dam broke and it reopened our communication. Plus, she got a lot of good feed back from other board members in the process. It definitely wasn't easy. I'm sure you've felt that in your own sitch. Good luck buddy!

Well, haven't mentioned to WW about coming here yet. I'll be honest, I'd be real surprised if she did.

It's possible she's trying to make more time, but I've reason to believe she's doing this for another reason. I'm not sure how her NC is coming, I've no way to know, and it's only been a couple of days. The reason I think she's doing this is to prove to herself that she CAN'T fall in love with me again vs. doing this to see if she CAN. I also think she wants to see if OM will still be waiting for her after this is all said and done.

Right this moment, I'm seeing her dealing with some of the withdrawal symtoms, by the way she hates the comparsion of what she feels for OM as an addiction. I think while those are still strong, and there is no way of knowing if they'll ever abate, she'll not feel anything positive about me. Let me explain.

We went to the rodeo last night with the kids. The distance was VERY appearant. We found a place to sit on the bleachers, and initially she placed DD(3) between us. Kinda expected that. But you know 3 year olds, never in one place for very long. The space between her and I remained for awhile. At one point, she looked down at the space, and surprisingly, scooted closer to me. I don't know why.

All I know, is there can never be anything between us as long as OM is still in the picture, and he still us, oh, she may not be talking directly to him, but he's still in the picture. Not to mention, she come home wearing his necklace, but she did take it off before going to the rodeo and put on a different one. At least she's being considerate enough in that respect.

Right now, I'm not really expecting a whole lot. I can't. But if she's really sincere about knowing for sure, this could take months. At least the girls have their mom for the moment.

Honestly, I don't know why she's doing this. She set this up for failure, again. I see it, and I know she won't listen to me. I'm surprised she even listens to the counselor.

Sometimes I think, after everything she's demonstrated she's capable of, do I really need that in my life? If she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me, sincerely, I'm sure I could deal with it, but now, at this point, the way she's approaching this, I'm not sure it would be a bad thing for her to decide to just go.

Of course, I then think it could get better. I think I've seen all the bad things from her, out of her desperation. I understand she wants her whole life to feel like that first year, but no relationship stays that way. She will spend the rest of her life bouncing from relationship to relationship. How long would she be happy with OM before she starts looking for greener pastures.

Sigh, all I know is I'm going to give her time to deal with whatever demons she's battling with. All I can do is try and be here for her. I tell her I love her, and I've done my best not to touch her.

Bottom line is, I said for better or for worse. I'm seeing the worst, and I'm sticking to my committment. I don't control her, if she stays, she stays, if she goes, she goes. Either way, I'll survive. One thing still remains, I love her.

WW called me this morning. I admitted to her about what I felt last night at the rodeo. I told her I understood how she felt, and what she was going through. She asked how I could possibly know that. I responded with how I felt going into counseling Wednesday believing it was over, and how I would feel if she walked out the door.

I said I realized my touch was the last thing she wants, and that the only thing I could do was tell her I love her, and that I'm here for her.

I told her about you guys asking if she'd come here and post. She asked why? So, I told her that people from both sides of a relationship post here and the people here may or may not have something to say that could help her one way or the other.

I'll be honest, I'm sure she'll be upset if she reads this thread, she won't like things detailed here. She doesn't like being judged, I think it's one of her fears. Since counseling on Wednesday, and what I was prepared for, I'm not sure anything in this thread really matters anymore.

We're both guilty of doing things we felt justified in doing, regardless of how it would make the other person feel. I'm sitting back right now, and I'm watching things happen the way they're going to happen. There is nothing else I can do.

I told her I'd give her the link here if she wants to come here, it's possible she remembers the site and can find her own way here, I don't know. I may give her the link anyway, but I'm afraid of her best friend and OM coming here as well. I've put all my personal emotions on here, and I don't think they have a right to know those things. Maybe if WW read this, she might better understand me and where I'm coming from. This is tearing me up, and I wish I had someone willing to console me in my time of need, but I'll suck it up and be here for her, if she'll take me.

I would tell her that your online friends here say that her partial NC plan will never work. She won't like it, but needs to be called on her "plan to save the marriage".

I'll email her the link, and if she comes, she comes. I'm not going directly home after work, going to a friends house to work on my brakes.

WW went grocery shopping, and I called her to let her know for sure I was doing my brakes this afternoon. Told her I'd be home by 8pm or so. My friend works the night shift and has to be at work by 11pm.

Here's to hoping for a good weekend.

RW,
A few posts ago you said:
"Talked with WW, she's beginning to start withdrawel I think. I don't know how to handle what she's going through. I want to comfort her, but at the same time I feel she resents me for her deciding to do this.
I'm guessing I just give her space, and try to be as understanding as I can, but I can't help feeling guilty. I mean, she'd still be happy with OM at the moment if she hadn't felt like I forced her to do this."

I hope you're not feeling you "forced her to do this"... her actions and deceit forced her to do this. Did she really think she could carry on indefinitely, living off of your pain while enjoying the OM contact?

Be strong, and hang on. We'll be here for ya, no matter what happens.

Well, it's been a long weekend. Talked to WW Saturday night, about where we are with this whole situation. Started off, by asking what we're doing and why? She says she's doing this for the same reason I am, to see if we can make things work for the kids. I told her there was one obvious difference, and that's I still love her.

Appearantly, she's still holding on to a lot of anger for the last few years, add to that she's angry I'm now they way she feels I should have been all along. There is still another item to add in there. Turns out this NC she's doing isn't because she wanted too, but because I asked her too. So I'm getting the anger and resentment for that too. I did point out during this conversation that she's been wearing OM's necklace every day, and I couldn't see how that was helping anything. She asked if I was saying the steps she's taken towards NC weren't good enough? I said, basically no, but anything is better than nothing, but if she's wearing his necklace every day, all she's doing is clinging to him everyday. Surprisingly enough, she didn't put it on Sunday, or yesterday. I'm not sure if she made that choice because I mentioned it, or if what I said made sense.

The problem is she didn't give up OM because it's the right thing to do, but because I asked her too. So she's done this for the wrong reason, and I'm not sure how that will affect things.

Here's another kicker, my brother suggested we try role reversal, that way we would get some sort of indication how we perceive each other. It's a great idea, and one our counselor has suggested, but haven't gotten around too yet due to the um, uh, recent developments.

My sister-n-law also pointed out something. For WW to be so angry at me for so long, can only be because she still has feelings for me. She said, people don't hold onto anger like that for someone they don't have feelings for.

Whatever the case is, IF she's serious about honestly trying to see if we can make this work, then she's going to have to put all the anger aside, and get over OM. Otherwise, there will never be anything.

Here's something that's got me stunned, WW came down to my room last night. That was completely unexpected, I've made no sexual advances at all. I thought for sure, if she's really maintaining NC with OM, that I'd be the last person she would want for a long time.

She thinks I'm still using spyware. I pointed out Memorial Day weekend when I was suspicious I thought of using it, but when she told the truth Tuesday, I said what was the point? I further said, I was expecting her to call it quits at last counseling, once again, what would be the point of using spyware? And as far as right now is concerned, she's not willing to give me anything to prove whether or not she's maintaining NC with OM. I can't make her give me anything, so I have to assume, she's communicating with him still. It's not on me at the moment, right now it's all about whether or not she can even be honest with herself.

I look at it this way, I accepted she was leaving, but will still work things out. If she doesn't do what she said, it's still not my fault.

Oh, she's working on resumes again. I think that's good for her, but I don't think I figure too much into any of that right now, if ever. But I refuse to relocate anywhere without there being an US, and at this moment, we all know what that would require. Which I don't see happening right now.

Counseling is going to take forever to get here, I leave you all with a song that touches me every time I hear it. This song says it all:

Nickleback: "Someday"
How the hell did we wind up like this
Why weren't we able
To see the signs that we missed
And try to turn the tables

I wish you'd unclench your fists
And unpack your suitcase
Lately there's been too much of this
Dont think its too late

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when

Well i hoped that since we're here anyway
We could end up saying
Things we've always needed to say
So we could end up staying
Now the story's played out like this
Just like a paperback novel
Lets rewrite an ending that fits
Instead of a hollywood horror

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)

[Solo]

How the hell did we wind up like this
Why weren't we able
To see the signs that we missed
And try to turn the tables
Now the story's played out like this
Just like a paperback novel
Lets rewrite an ending that fits
Instead of a hollywood horror

Nothin's wrong
just as long as
you know that someday I will

Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
Someday, somehow
gonna make it allright but not right now
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
I know you're wondering when
(You're the only one who knows that)
I know you're wondering when

Keep on keeping on. Your wife is still mixed up. But she is trying in her own way. Don't give up.

Well, I messed up yesterday. Sent some links to some Dr. Phil articles to WW. I found them interesting and thought she might as well. I was wrong. She took it as if I was throwing her faults in her face and trying to make her feel guilty. Her response was to send me a link on stalking. Legally, it's not stalking. However, following her around online, is stalking, and yes, I did feel guilty. But I believe in a situation like this there has to be a system of checks and balances established. I do know she's been in contact with OM.

Talked to her mom last night, and her mom said she's always had an honesty issue. I guess being in this situation merely made it more obvious. Her mom bought 3 round trip tickets for WW and the girls to visit her in California from July 9th to the 18th. WW seems to think that time away from home will be healing, only I don't know in which way. I'm just tired of this. If she wants to leave, ok fine. If she wants to stay, ok fine, I'll give 100%. Just make a decision already.

Only thing I can do now is just back off completely and wait for counseling next week.

WW took a half day off yesterday, her horse was getting new horse shoes put on.

She picked up DD(12) and they did a little shopping. They bought some flowers for the flower beds, then needed more color, and they got Father's Day stuff.

Appearantly I'm getting something messy, no idea what it could be. WW suggested whatever it is, and DD(12) got to pick it out. I'm surprised WW had any part of it.

When I got home, they were working on planting the new flowers, and then WW and I washed the dogs. Had a couple of mixed drinks, Vanilla Vodka with Vanilla Coke, YUM! Here's a big surprise, WW fell asleep on the couch around 8pm. Guess that's what happens when you stay up until 1:30am the previous night, I'm sure the alcohol had something to do with that too.

OM's necklace is no longer on the bedside table, but WW wasn't wearing it either. I'm thinking she's making an effort to keep it with her, but not wearing it in front of me. Well, some consideration I suppose.

I'm ready for Plan B, but waiting for the right moment to implement it. Thought about bringing it up at counseling next week, that's not out of the question yet, but I'm not sure I want to get into that before WW and DD's go to California. Our counselor originally wanted us to do that, but financially difficult. WW brought it up after her Memorial Day escapade. Sigh, just realized, Memorial Day has been forever memorialized as a bad day for me.

I'm starting to accept this is over with no positive resolution, and maybe I'm the one that just needs to do something to preserve my sanity. Maybe the 9 days in California with her mom might make a difference. I hate the idea of having to do this even another day, let alone another month. I feel all I'm getting from WW is lip service because she's afraid I'll handle our divorce the way I handled my first one, which she was around for, and she knows how bad it can be. So I can't help but feel she's being deceptive.

I guess maybe if she was to give me some legitimate proof that this marriage means something, instead of accusing me of stalking her, it might make a difference. As of now, I feel the only reason she's not gone is because of the kids, and the only reason she's even toying with the idea of staying is the kids.

These basic facts remain:
1) There can be no positive work on our relationship until OM is 100% out of the picture.
2) There can be no positive work on our relationship until she lets all her anger go.

All I keep hearing from her is, she can't force herself to love me. And I maintain, and she won't be able to until those 2 facts listed above are resolved.

All in all, last night was ok. As long as they continue to be ok, I'll survive.

Last night, WW asked me to stop pressuring her for the "answer". She said all it does is push her away. She also said right now she doesn't want to leave. I'm not sure if that means she intends to leave, but not yet, or if it means she's still undecided. She said if I can do this, then in a couple of months we can evaluate where we are. Personally, I think it's a waste of time, because I still maintain she won't be able to feel anything for me until she doesn't feel anything for him, and that will take months of 100% NO CONTACT.

She further said she felt successful about not having contact with OM even though she knows I know she's been in contact. I just wonder what she's comparing successful too, considering my definition of successful is NO CONTACT AT ALL.

I asked her, just to make sure I understood what she was asking, if she wants me to quit asking for an answer, and I wasn't sure if "pretend" was a good word to use or not, but if she wanted me to pretend everything was fine. And she said yes.

I said, "ok". and she asked if that was a problem, and I responded with I said ok. With them going to California next month I don't want to make any waves. We have counseling next week, so I'm extremely interested in what the counselor is going to say about everything since last week's counseling.

How can I possibly "pretend" everything is ok, when I'm still sleeping downstairs, and she's not maintaining the NC SHE said she was going to do.

On a side note, I think we're going out tonight, I asked her if she wanted to go out with me, and she asked what I had in mind. I suggested we go to a coffee shop or something and pretend we're strangers meeting for the first time. The whole concept is very interesting to me, and I think it's got her curiosity up as well.

Just read your whole thread and it sounds like you are doing the right things!
The one thing I would stop doing is asking questions like "Are you only staying here because of the kids?" At this point, it may be the only reason she is. But so what. I know you want her to be here because she loves you and wants you. But you have to start with baby steps, and it seems like you have. Even if she says she is just staying for the kids, it is a way for her to "save face" a bit...you could just say "I am glad you are, because the girls and I have a more wonderful life with you fully in it" or something. Her love bank from you was deep in the red, so you have to keep filling it where she will let you. And remember she is in withdrawal from you, so she may go thru the state of conflict (or be in it) before she gets back into the state of intimacy. I think you are being somewhat firm about getting the OM out of her life...so keep that up. I still am not sure that everything in the OM's life is what she says it is...probably because the OM is lying. Other's have told you to contact the OM's wife...keep that in mind if you need to.

Also, keep watching the Love Busting. Looks like you are doing well, but I have read story after story where someone is not patient with the WS and lovebusts up a storm and undoes any rebuilding they have done.

Another thing to possibly try is to tell her you just want to give her something to think about.
Tell her the story of her and you with the roles reversed.
Tell her to think of a man she loves (don't ask her who that is!). Imagine that he has started emailing another woman. But he says he is just friends with her. He gets a new cellphone and talks with her everyday. He chats on-line with her. But he says they are just friends. She asks him to stop. But they are just friends!
He says he is going on a camping trip w/ his buddies. But he sees her and has sex with her.
She asks him to stop contacting her. But he won't. He says he will try to work on the relationship, but wears jewelry she gave him.
Asks her if she thinks that their relationship will be successful if he doesn't stop interacting with that other woman.