Well as you probably read from all the posters here on MB. It is an Affair.

I would definitely tell the OW husband. He needs to know and I am sure that he is wondering as much as you are.

I wish I could tell you something to ease your pain. That letter that he wrote made me cringe! It hits home all to well. My H. affair started off with the same suspicions. I had my husbands cell passcode. He did not remember though. I heard her voice and the day after he slept with her; "Had a great time last night! I hope there is a next"!

I would definitely get some counseling for yourself. Because you are going to need help processing your feelings. Because I am not going to lie to you, it does get worse!! And you are going to need someone there face to face for you.

I will be here and I am sure the rest of the posters as well.

Affairs are difficult to handle!

Ali

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Is sounds like an A to me.

Remember patience is your friend. Give a person enough rope and they always hang themselves. When he feels comfortable that you are not looking, he will mess up.

I know, not easy to be patient.

Another question, for you, do you really need proof? Is suspicion enough for you to satisfy your mind?

I knew I had to had proof in my marriage. I knew if I did not, he would lie, with some really bad lies. He even tried the "violation of privacy". I point blank told him, "if I trusted him to be honest with me, I would not have had to gone to the measure I did to get to the truth."

I do want proof because I feel like such a fool as it is. What if I go to the OW H and he laughs at me? I already tried to contact her anonymously via email asking her for answers and she simply sent an email back of "Who is this?".

I always want to believe the best in people and I just find it so hard to understand how my husband of all people could do this to me. What are the chances that I'm wrong??? I don't want to accuse someone if I'm wrong - that would be ugly. This OW has been to my house and we have been out to dinner with them as a couple. Could it be just a fantasy. I want so badly to believe that, but deep down inside I don't. And I am not normally a suspicious person.

I'm trying to be patient, but I honestly don't know how to prove anything now. He has all the access through work. I know no passwords, believe me I have tried, and I cannot contact his credit card company without his approval.

Your H is having an affair. At first it is hard to believe. I didn't figure it out for 6 months, although all the signs were there.

Just to make you feel better believer this affair apparently started in August 2002 and continued up until November 2003 when I found the cell phone bills. That is why I feel so dumb!

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My H lied for months to my face. Even in front of the MC, when I ask him twice in one night if he was involved with the OW he denied it. He lied and cheated and accused me of freaking out when I suggested something was going on.

Even when I caught him on his cell phone with her at Thanksgiving, at first he said it was his brother. When I pressed, he finally admitted it was the OW, but then he responded with lies to half of the questions I ask about having an affair with her.

I lost 17 pounds, lost hours of sleep and performed terribly at work because I was so distracted. That happened after he told me he didn't love me but while he was still denying that he was involved with OW.

I also checked his cell phone log and found he was calling her as soon as he got in the car in the morning and on his way home at night. She works for him so he could see her during the day, but had to be discreet.

It is truely amazing to me how someone that you thought was honest and moral, can be so deceitful and lying.

When the PA finally came out, H said he felt our marriage was over so that was why he became involved with her. At that point we hadn't even discussed having marital problems. We just had really bad communication skills and were conflict avoiders.

Good luck, I know it is hard. I am in my 4th month of knowing the truth. Three times he has broken it off with the OW to work on the marriage since then. I think we are working on it now, but I don't have access to his email, so who knows, the love notes could be going back and forth again. The PA could be on again.
Blessing to you.

I cannot believe all of the sad stories I am hearing - it makes me sick that people who supposedly love each other do this stuff. I don't treat people I hate like this.

My H is telling me that he knows he was wrong for shutting me out during that time, but he absolutely did not cheat on me. I guess I'm am luckier than some that he at least says that he loves me, although it may be meaningless. Why do the BS's have to be the ones that feel all of the pain and have to be the one to pick up the pieces. It seems so unfair!

Yep. It is unfair. But we have to realize that is the way it is.

It is hard to accept, but that is life.

SG!

That letter is not proof? The bills! You, like me back then are in such denial. I thought the same! My H. loves me! He wouldn't do it to me? I am just being paranoid! If you have doubts, and reading that e-mail? Wake up!
Affairs don't have to be physical. But in my opinion, he went that far!
OK, this is what you need to do. Don't let him know you are on to him. Act normal from now on! Don't act suspicious. Go about your life as you normally would. It is going to be tough. Let him think that you trust him. But in the mean time, do a lot of detective work. Need help? I am gooood!

I am not sure what other proof you need though. My husband lied to my face! You expect him to come right out and say yes! Look what he would have to loose? He is not on this earth right now! he is having his cake and eating it too!

Look as I said to my H. and someone on this board. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck then it is a duck! The facts are all in front of you! We all been through this and you are describing to us the classic signs of a WS! What else do you need? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I will help you!

Ali

By the way, picking up the pieces? Oh yeah, I said the same thing in the beginning.

Ali

This is bad, but steal his cell phone! Make him think he lost it! I have ideas how to get into his credit card statments!
You want to know what my H. did? He called up Sprint and told him that no female can have access to his phone info. The customer service guy didn't see that note because I called and I told him that I was paying for the bill etc, and that I just recently change my past code and forgot it, he gave it to me! But then he realized it and cut me off, called his cell phone left a message that a female was trying to get access and accidently gave me the passcode. Dumb & dumb. Leave a message after he gave me the code!!! Smart guy for ya! But I was thinking God was on my side. What are the chances of that happening? I immedately called up his phone and deleted it that message! That gave me a thrill! Sad to say!
But I received more and more love messages from her! Finally I had it, I confronted him!
But there are ways to get info. Hang out with him at his office. Go in there unannouced and bring a lunch and have picnin lunch in his office. When he goes to the bathroom, spill water and start snooping! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> . Or bring something leave it in the car and say; "Oh honey, I just got my monthy friend today and I didn't think I would need my bag up here could you go in the car and bring me my bag"?
OK nuff said on this.

Ali a little embarressed here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just a thought and based on incomplete information but in your H's loveletter to OW he says:

quote...
"I have thought about your comment about starting over....with someone that you really love"

And then he goes on to suggest that the two of them should start over with each other. But look carefully and you'll see that SHE hadn't said that - she appears to have just talked in general terms about starting over with someone - it's him that suggested that the someone could be him.

Now you haven't given the complete quote but this sounded to me like he's more committed to the relationship than she is.

Is it possible that she has either dumped him or backed off?

Just a thought.

Thanks for the suggestions Ali88 but I've already been told that family members coming to his office is seriously frowned upon and he could get into trouble. I've suggested meeting him for lunch too and the answer is no. Stealing his cell phone would not accomplish anything either because he no longer uses it and I have always had the capability of checking voice mail - he forgot I had the passcode. Also, the minute I confronted him on the cell phone bills all calls stopped. He has another phone if anything, but I can't find it. He probably keeps it at work during the week and hides it in his car or something on the weekend.

To answer the question about his/her commitment, let me give you the whole paragraph and one before it when he talks about a conversation they had called "playing the game". She apparently told him he was good at the game and this is his response:

"I know that I've told you this before, but I want to make it perfectly clear that I have never viewed what we have as a game nor have I "played the game" with you...not even in the beginning. Sure - I might have dropped hints or tested the water, but it was never a game...it is real. I just want you to understand that."

Then the next few paragraphs talke about love and life, then this...

"I have thought about your comment about starting over, and how I told you that everything else doesn't really matter when you have someone to share it with...someone that you really love...a feeling that Ihave never had until I found you. And I dream of starting over with you, of buying a house with you, of working in the yard with you, of watching our kids grow up together, of taking walks with you, vacations with you...of growing old with you, of being happy with you. All such seemingly simple things.

And, like you, it makes me sick that we can't share more together, that we go home to different lifes, different families, different spouses. I often wonder how happy you are with H, how you spend your time together. It bothers me. Even when you tell me about something trivial you do together, or something you talk about togehter, it hurts. And of course, I wonder about more - which hurts more.

then later...

I might be good at plying the game, and I feel like I thrive under pressure...but I am not too good at this OW. more....... Even though neither one of us wants to accept it, we need to come to a point where we are ok with being happy with what we do have....believe me, it is a constant struggle for me...and it sucks. It kills me OW, but I don't know what to do about it.

What do you think now? How can this possibly be a fantasy?

He came home all upset last night because I don't believe him. Everytime I read this letter it just hardens my feelings towards him more. What do you think now? I think I am a basket case.

SG,

The proof is right in front of your eyes in black and white....and only DENIAL can keep you from seeing it. Most of us never get as much evidence as you already have. His letters are EXPLICIT about making love to her and there is no question about this affair.

Let's talk about Plan A...because you need to do ALL the parts of it...or you are not in plan A.

Here are some guidelines:

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)

Also....I'm going to give you an incredible link to an Infidelity Overview that was written by Penny Tupy at Save Your Marriage Central.

I urge you to call either her or one of the Harleys because so much of what you need to do right now will feel "wrong" and so having a good coach is essential.

Hugs and prayers!

I wish I can talk to you in person!

I am trying to figure out what it is really that you are asking??? There is definitely something going on with that OW? He is lying to your face by saying nothing is going on? Sure there is!

Funny, I wasn't allowed in husbands office either.
But there are so many ways to get information on him. Can you do another credit report? I know you can do it over the internet. Just get his SS# and you are set to go.

But the letter is proof enough! Don't you think? He is basically saying that you and her husband are big obsticles in the way! Did you show him that letter??? What man who is not having an A. would say something like that to a co-worker?

Do you have to catch them in the act??? I would definitely get the OW's husband envolved. I am not sure if that is the case that OW dumped him.

Go out to Barnes and Noble or Borders and purchase the book surviving an affair. It will give a lot of details to what your husband is going through. I have been through what you are going through. I like to give my situation as an example to help others see how WS act! If you go on the search way up at the top typre his number 26649. You will get an idea of what is going on in your marriage.
if you want to talk in person e-mail me at rraz@aol.com and I can call you or you can call me if you want!
I know exactly what you are going through!
Ali

Thanks star*fish and lovesaved! I believe that I am in PLan A and have been since November. I found this website right away and even in the throes of denial I tried working on this with as much respect to him as possible. I always tell him that I'm willing to listen to his explanations and that we can work through anything as long as we both have the truth. This was just with the phone bills. Although I admit to getting very upset when I found the emails and letters (about two weeks apart) I ultimately calmed down (after I called him a liar and threatened to leave) and began again telling him how much I love him and need him in my life (which makes me feel like a liar sometimes). I tell him I'm devasted, but no matter what, I want our marriage to work. He cries (literally) and just goes back to "why can't you believe me then". He is asking me to believe that these things mean nothing and I just can't do that. I finally told both of my sisters and they both say to call the OW H too.

One thing I have been very gently doing is requesting the old credit card statements. I told him that if he really wants to ease my mind that this would do that. If there is nothing funny on them I will never ask for them again and we can move on. He refuses to do that and he is no longer using that card apparently.

My worst fear is that it is over and he will never admit to anything. I don't know if I can live with that. Or worse yet, what if he tells me a year from now and I have to deal with this all over again. I just don't know where to go from here. Not to mention that he still works with this woman! What a mess.

Ali88 -Thanks so much for your support. I really need that right now. Maybe we can talk some time, but this is just too new to me right now and I'm at work (being soooo productive obviously)!

I don't know what I am asking for. As I said, I'm in an in-between state and I don't want to think these things about my H. How can he cry and lie to me so much. I wish I knew if it was over - I wish someone would tell me the truth! I tried contacting her anonymously because I hate confrontation and they have obviously gone to great lengths to keep this a secret. She simply wrote back "Who is this". They have obviously agreed to never admit anything.

As to your question about the letter. He absolutely refused to read the letter even after I begged him to and then to listen to what he was asking of me. He can't face the guilt! He knows he was wrong - he has even said that he screwed up - but he still insists there was NO AFFAIR! He cries and begs me to believe him and I am soooooo torn. Because I want to believe him, because I love him, but how can he even think those things about another woman!

It is amazing what our WS can do when they know they are wrong!

I understand where you are coming from at this time. Trying to make sense of this is overewhelming and for each question that is answered, 10 more come in.

I am still trying to understand why my husband had the A. He has always showed great morals and committment. He was disgusted when he found out that several of his co-workers had affairs. One had several ONS while they were on business.
His boss was sleeping with a client and he had to break a lot of rules and baby the client under his boss's directive. So I never thought in a million years that my very loving committed husband would ever hurt me to the extent that he did.

I was in such denial for so long. I couldn't believe it was happening. When I did confront him, he said what am I talking about? etc. Made me feel like an idiot. I knew better because his behavior was different. I wanted so hard to believe him but my head was telling me different.

Plan A. is great. I will admit, because my situation was a lot different from others, it didn't work on me too well. In your case, I think it will work a lot! Don't over do it. Show him the quilties that made the two of you fall in love. Right now you are extrememly vulnerable. So plan A. will be good for you.

You may have mixed feelings of your trust. The letter that he wrote to the OW, you know it is real but having a hard time believing it. I like to think BS's can be in a fog too. I was!!!
Reconsider contacting the OW. If you don't like confrontation, that may work to your advantage.
Get a list of questions and tell her that your husband was open to you and showed you the e-mail and you want her side and why it is still going on? Don't attack her. Even though it may be over with, still ask!

Ali
For some reason this thread is bringing back a lot of memories and triggers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I think this is why I am compelled to help you more!

By the way,

He is nuts! I am not trying to be mean but look at this; </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He cries (literally) and just goes back to "why can't you believe me then". He is asking me to believe that these things mean nothing and I just can't do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have the letter stating his love for her???
This is why you don't believe him. Please don't let him manipulate you. Because he is doing that!
He is trying to make you believe his lies. And because I see you have a great heart, you are torn over this his manipulation.
The letter is all the proof that he had felt something for this OW. So, try not to think with your heart and be logical about this. He is trying to get away with his adultress guilt!
Ali

Thanks again Ali - This board has been my only outlet these days. As you can probably tell, I'm just functioning so well!!! Ha! I hesitate on telling my sisters too much because they are going through some life changes of their own and don't need my worries. Both of them are pretty disgusted with my H right now and I worry how that may impact my future too - mostly because of my kids.

I know what you mean about your WS because my WS was always so disgusted with people that had A's too. He even accused me of having an A 5 years ago and was mad for a long, long time. In fact, I think that is the root of the problem. He never believed me and he felt justified. He had nothing to go on though. I had just started a new job and there was lots of turnover and lots of going away parties - I went to 4 and that was enough for him. There was no unaccounted for time, I didn't even have a cell then, I checked my work email at home and would have showed him if he asked. As a matter of fact after weeks of him hounding me about this one guy I finally quit talking to the guy, quit school (because he was in a class of mine), and never went to another going away party again. I to this day do not know why he thought I had an A, but he did and I did everything he asked to make him feel better. Why can't he do the same for me? I think he is just a control freak. Also, now he says that he KNOWS I didn't have an affair. Why does he know that now? My best guess is that I am unable to deceive anyone (but I'm learning how to now) and he knows I could never have carried on such a charade and not admit it. What do you think???