I’m sitting here at my desk, trying to work, needing to do my taxes, faced with all of life’s responsibilities that we all have. But I’m only able to think of nothing but the fact that the most important thing in my life, the basis of all my emotion (good and bad) for the last 11 years may be gone. What’s even worse, I may not have actually “lost” her as you have to have something to begin with in order to lose it.

First, some fairly extensive background as it is fairly important. She was raised in the rural south essentially by her mother and grandmother with her identical twin sister. Her father had multiple affairs and her parents were divorced when she as 13. Her mother remarried a few years later to a wonderful man and they remain deliriously happy to this day. However, because of her mothers experiences in life, she raised the girls to be fiercely independent. “You must never put yourself in a position to be dependent on a man because in the end, they all cheat and they all leave”. As such, my wife has a Ph.D. (we met in grad school), and her sister is a physician.

I was raise by “Ozzie and Harriet” in the Midwest. My mom was stay at home and totally dependent on my dad. My dad was without question the financial, emotional, and spiritual head of the house. My parents are still married and are deliriously happy.

My wife has never really had friends outside of her sister and I had always believed that they had a closeness that went so far beyond friendship that it made close friends unnecessary. I also willingly accepted the notion that I would never have that degree of closeness with her. Closeness yes, but different. It’s a twin thing. She has always guarded her emotions VERY closely. She has always “protected” herself from being hurt by others and certainly by me though I never gave her a reason the think that I would. I thought that she would only lay her soul bare to her sister but I know now that even this isn’t the case.

Since that time, we have both developed successful careers and have 2 beautiful children, ages 4 and 6. Overall we have had a good and loving family life. That’s not to say we’re Ozzie and Harriet but I thought it was predominantly good. However, over the years, her priorities always left us little time to focus on our marriage. School, careers, kids, etc. I had these same priorities but first among them was her. Her first priority has always job. And she continued to aggressively and effectively to maintain her independence.

This brings us to about 10 months ago. My wife received a big promotion, something that she definitely deserved and of which I was very proud. However her attentiveness to the needs of her family became virtually non existent. By her own admission, she developed the opinion that she was to important (as a businesswoman) to bother with domestic or family matters. It was obvious but I just thought, new job, more stress, it will settle down. Things did not and in fact got worse. In October, we took a trip with a few friends. I thought this would be a great opportunity for her (and me) to relax and enjoy doing something we love together. But she just wasn’t “there”. She seemed distracted and didn’t really act like she was enjoying herself. We got back and things declined. At this point I was really starting to worry but the though of an affair was still beyond my imagination.

About a week before Christmas she called my on her way home from work and said “we need to talk”. When she got back, she told me about an experience she had had with one of her companies VP’s. She initially said that he had made unwanted advances on her but that she was totally uninterested. In fact, she was forced to report him to HR because a lawyer overheard her telling the story of his advances to a co-worker (the OM was ultimately fired based on this but he doesn’t know it was her). I pushed her on her story because the facts didn’t add up. What I ultimately learned on that day was that she in fact was flattered and interested in his advances but it went no further. She also said that she had cut all contact with him.

After that, things declined even further. I was depressed and very moody faced with the reality that my wife could fall for another man and we rapidly grew further apart. Then about 3 weeks ago, I got the wild idea to start checking out her cell phone bill. It didn’t take me long to figure out which number was his and I found many recent calls to him. I had to confront her and did about 3 weeks ago, D-Day, or so I thought. I pushed her to “tell me what’s really going on”. Trying to see how capable she was of lying. She was VERY capable. We talked for hours and through my relentless pushing she finally told be that she had had an affair with him (starting the week before our October trip) and ultimately confessed that while they had not actually “done the deed” it was sexual and was one of the most physically and emotionally intense experiences she had ever had. While it wasn’t much, I was actually got a very small bit of relief from the “fact” that they had not had intercourse. She also said she had written him a letter earlier in the month breaking it off. She also said she loved me and wanted to make things work.

Double D-Day. A week later we had both made a commitment to reconcile. We had a counseling session scheduled and were going to get away for a long weekend to relearn how to enjoy each others companionship. To work on falling in love again. I was packing for a trip and she had just left to pick up our son from daycare when I had another wild idea: to look on her computer for the letter she mentioned writing to the OM. I found it and there truly not words to describe the devastation it brought me.

In the letter she wrote of things that nobody knew (not even her sister) and truly appeared to “open her soul” and speak from the heart (it’s obvious when she does). She wrote of many things including the fact that she was breaking things off with him (the only positive). But she also wrote of her love for him but that it couldn’t be. She wrote that she had regretted marrying me almost from day one and that she had spent our honeymoon feeling physically ill because of it. She wrote of the guilt she faced every day since she married me because of the misery she had caused in my life, that I “deserved better”. She said she thought divorce was a “virtual certainty” and that when it came she wanted to put the pieces of her life back together. To find love. And she also wrote of the memories of. How he had reminded her what it feels like to be in love and feel passionate about someone. How she’ll always remember his kiss and of course making love to him (so much for that).

I confronted her with the letter when she got home. She admitted to the obvious facts, the sexual and emotional nature of her relationship with this man. However she said that the things she wrote about me were not true. She admits her independence and that she has always struggled to avoid needing me. Again, men always cheat and leave. But she said she did love me and still does but obviously that love needs a lot of work. She also said she was “terrified that I would leave” and would “do anything to save our marriage”

We have since had our first session with a marriage counselor and our second is tonight. We did spend a weekend away and considering the circumstances it went fairly well. I made her set up the counseling and the weekend away to show her willingness to make an effort which she did. She has also opened up a bit (reluctantly) and yesterday revealed even more devastation. She admitted to me that she never did “fall in love with me”. That she married me because I was a good person, would make a great husband and father, and that’s what people did. She said she’s willing to try and get individual counseling (but hasn’t set anything up). But when asked if the thought she could fall in love with me she said she honestly didn’t know.

So where do I stand. I have nothing left. NOTHING!!! Yet I still love her dearly and will do anything to make this work. But is there really any reason for hope? If we are to make this work, I’ll obviously have to deal with the affair but how can I get to that point if the very fabric of our marriage, of my life, is in question? How hard should I push her to open up (she already complains that I am pressuring her)? Do I really want to be with a woman who would get a man fired just to save her own reputation? What do I believe!?!?! What should I expect!?!?! What do I do!?!?!

Moondog... I couldn't leave for work this morning without sending you a response. In all the time I've been visiting MB, I've never read a story so shockingly similar to my own. (It's a bit odd, perhaps, that I keep visiting MB since my marriage is over in all but law, but I guess I still visit to hear from others who have been there.) I can't promise you advice... but hopefully it'll help to know that you're not alone, and that your situation, sadly enough, isn't unique.

TBXW and I married in 1996. We were, I believed, a happy couple during that time, subject to the usual stresses of children, careers, etc.

Then came August 3, 2003. TBXW sat me down and told me that she'd been on-and-of miserable in our marriage since day one. She'd also been unfaithful. Over the next couple of weeks the full extent of all of this became clear.

I don't know if there's anything in her parents' relationship to explain her behaviour, as their is in your W's case. She, too, is very independent, highly motivated, etc. That's the part that makes little sense to me; other than some early lessons she may have learned that lying is OK if you're sparing people's feelings, I don't know how to account for her actions.

Anyway, when we married I felt like I had found my life partner. She married feeling like I had a bunch of traits that she SHOULD be happy with, would be a good father, loyal partner, blah blah f*cking blah. On that basis, she told herself she was being selfish for secretly wanting somebody who was more like her (highly driven, etc., basically "her with a c*ck"). So we got married. She cried on our wedding night... at the time I thought it was due to the emotion of the day, etc., but I found out after August 3 that it was because she knew she'd just made a huge mistake.

So, I also learned that she'd had an affair during the engagement. She started another one about 6 weeks after the wedding and it lasted for 8 months. (It coincides uncomfortably with the conception of our daughter, and the truth of her parentage is not certain. Whether or not to find out is up in the air.)

After our daughter was born, she supposedly was happy for awhile. Then she got unhappy again. In 1999 I decided to go back to school, with (I thought) her complete blessing. So I quit my job and spent the next year being a full-time dad to my daughter. Also during 2000, I got in the best physical shape of my life, I was politically involved, had a lot of things going. And she was working on a political campaign and ended up having yet another affair.

This one supposedly ended about a month before the conception of our son (though I only have her worthless word on that)... fortunately he's a spitting image of me. She continued that as an EA for a couple of years afterwards, though for all I know it became a PA again. And, for all I know there were other affairs or ONSs, in spite of her assurance that I now know the whole story.

Like I said, I had no idea about any of this until August 3/03. The only occasion I had to doubt her fidelity was sometime in 2001. I was mucking about on the computer and found some links to philanderers.com and some evidence that she had a secret email account. I confronted her with this and she told me that she'd set it up as bait to test MY fidelity. I told her to look me in the eye and tell me if she'd ever been unfaithful to me. She looked me in the eye and lied to me. And, like an [censored], I bought her lies.

Anyway, her "secrets" weren't very well kept. Somehow they got out. Two of my closest friends found out about 2 years before I did, and in the summer of 2002 they sat her down, and told her what they knew. I don't blame them for not coming to me; I hope I'm never placed in such a crappy situation. My best friend, one of the two, tells me that he was an emotional mess about the whole business, and sought advice from his parents, his priest, and our other mutual friends. Another friend of mine who also knew actually went and spoke to a counsellor about what to do. (One of my consolations in the midst of this garbage is that, though I had a lying betraying wife, at least I had good and loyal friends.)

Anyway, they sat her down and told her that she was to end the affair immediately, and that if they found out again that she'd cheated on me, they'd come to me first. Supposedly she went white as a sheet when they told her what they knew, and asked who they'd heard it from. They refused to tell her, which was a good idea because it limited her ability to spin her way out of the situation. All of a sudden, she knew that she wouldn't be able to keep it a secret forever or carry on as she had been. (Unfortunately they didn't know that she'd continued the EA component up until August 3.)

So, once all of this came down, she told me that she loved me but had never during the marriage loved me in the way that spouses are supposed to. Needless to say, I was devastated. August and September were the worst months of my life. We spent those months nominally working to fix the marriage, but she wasn't really interested in trying and made very half-hearted efforts. When I realized that she didn't care, I agreed when she said we should separate. I moved out November 1. The months since then have been a rollercoaster (check my other posts if you'd like), with a couple of attempts to get back together that ended in nothing.

So, from my perspective, the marriage is over. She's in a relationship with some guy twice her age who she started meeting "casually" (whatever) during the two months following August 3. For all I know, they started boinking each other then. The low point for her was in December, when somebody (don't know who, and it wasn't me) sent a mass-circulation email to everybody she knew, telling them she had cheated on me with multiple partners and was a liar. That damaged the reputation she somehow had been hoping she could salvage in spite of her disgusting actions.

I wish I had something more inspiring to tell you. In my case, the marriage is over. I'm tired of dealing with her and wish I didn't have to. She's gotten into a habit of getting pissy with me about trivial things, only to apologize within 24 hours. That's happened a lot, and frankly I'm tired of accepting her apologies. I try to keep my interactions with her to a minimum. I like to associate with people who are a positive influence on my life, and in whose company I feel good. I don't feel that way with her; she makes me feel uncomfortable and hostile. If I never had to see her again I think I'd be happier.

Anyway, if you have questions, let me know and I'll do my best to answer them. Good luck brother...

Moondog

Sorry you are here, but welcome to MB.

Have you heard about FOG? Sounds like fog talk coming from your W.

It sounds encouraging that your W is willing to go to IC and MC.

Read everything you can on this site, buy the books (HNHN, SAA, NJF), get educated and you can have a better M than you ever thought possible.

I never thought I could handle what I have learned about my FWH...lying since we met, multiple A's, alcoholism, etc. But with the right IC for both of us, a good MC, and AA, I can say (finally) at almost 10 months past d-day that I see a wonderful M in our future.

Others more experienced will post to you also.

Hang in there for some good advice.

Take care.

sss

To moondog1 and reservoirdog1:
Are you two related? Your stories are so shockingly similar. First of all, your spouses appear to be highly independent on the surface, but inside they are very insecure. They are easy preys of anyone who pays attention to them because that is what they want. Individuals like them are very needed of attention and they look for it through recognition in what they do, praise by others, and in this case, intimate relations with others. Without knowing much about their past, I will venture to say that they have troubled pasts, parents who did not show them love and very likely a home where there was lack of respect from one parent to another. The possibility that one of their parents was unfaithful is high and they saw that growing up. Both of them need serious individual counseling. The fact that they married for the wrong reasons is not a stretch. They married because they wanted someone to pay attention to them. The positive is that during that time they discovered they married good persons who deserve better. They love you but do not know how to show it because they did not see at home. If they have siblings, it is very possible that they also have problems of commitment to one person. It is sad when people marry for the wrong reasons.

Moondog, you have SO MUCH!!! You have yourself, and the knowledge you have been faithful , and two beautiful children.

She has learned to be selfish her whole life and not share herself and her time. She willingly gave of herself to someone else.

Time to really face the situation. She is afraid to change...afraind to give up her power, afraid to TRUST YOU!!!

It sounds, from your post, that she has been pushing you away your entire M because of her fear you will leave. And in her fear she has decided to leave first.

She has been afraid to truly give of herself, to be truly intimate, to feel the joy that comes with abandonment of her fears. I feel sorry for her.

I would suggest a good IC for her, perhaps a group that could deal with dad-issues?

Have you both filled out the EN questionnaire and the LB questionnaire. I'm afraid she won't score high on the independent behavior part of the LB sheets...

Thanks for all your comments, both good and bad. Res-dog, I don’t know if I’m comforted or horrified the you essentially went through the same thing. It didn’t work (at least yet) for you. Do I start to prepare for that potential. Do you have custody of your kids? My W says she would never leave ours but I can’t imagine her being able to take care of them on her own. And I can’t imagine not being in their lives EVERY DAY.

Helping hand also had some good insight (about her being easy prey). She’s obviously insecure in her personal life but not so much in her job. Then she goes off and as an EA and PA with a VP (sorry, couldn’t help it). Specifically her bosses bosses boss. She was getting everything from this guy, professional, emotional, and physical adoration.

We had a little more time to talk today and it wasn't good (productive). She was in a bad mood about something ("it's just stuff with work") and was really negative. She can usually come up with some excuse to avoid the situation.

We talked a bit about IC again and she said she still would if I "make her" She made it clear that she really doesn't want to. She thinks it’s a bunch of crap but again, if she has to she will. Do I make her go????? Shouldn’t she want to? She sees what’s wrong. She said "It's so depressing being the way I am" and she suffers greatly from guilt (she’s a bad mother, bad wife, etc). But she admittedly doesn't want to change it. As crazy as it sounds, she's more comfortable being miserable (HER words). She said that is why she likes and depends on work so much. She's very good at her job and has nothing to feel guilty about there.

Certainly she has good reason to feel guilty. The problem is she isn't willing to get past it. And now, with the last 6 months being what they were, she says she’s numb and just wants it all to stop. To go back to the way things were (when we thought we were happy) and avoid the reality of the situation. She just doesn’t want to deal with it. That can't happen. I would have to call res-dog to see if he needs a roommate. After talks like this, it’s nearly impossible to imagine a positive outcom

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked a bit about IC again and she said she still would if I "make her" She made it clear that she really doesn't want to. She thinks it’s a bunch of crap but again, if she has to she will. Do I make her go????? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take advantage of this and have her go. Sounds like she just needs a push in the right direction.

Good Luck.

Round 2 of MC this eve. Cant really say how I think it went. Basicly unemotional and very business like. The only insight the C may have had is that there's probably a competitive "twin thing" going on as well. That her job is so important because she is trying to keep ahead of her sister in a life long competition to have the greatest success.

It's all just more excuses for her. Gives her more ammo to support her desire to avoid it and pretend she did nothing wrong. That it's just the way she is. She's made it clear that she is unwilling to sacrifice her career for our M. MC QW seems like all she's willing to commit. When I try to get her to talk outside of that, she's just got too much going on with work to "deal with it". I understand it isn't an overnight process but can't she just toss me a bone every day or two? Am I expecting to much? How much do I need to compromise? Half way is good with me but she doesn't seem to want to budge.

Hi moondog,

That's quite the story.It sounds to me like your WW is trying to deal with her inner demons the wrong way.They say that the problems you face in childhood come back to bite you so that you can deal with them in adulthood.In your WW's case,she dealt with her fathers infidelity and her mothers "instructions" on how to deal with men the best way she knew how as a child/young adult and that was to overachieve.Become that which she felt,as a child,would get her the affection she needed.This carried over into adulthood.

In her adulthood,she is now reliving,up close and personal,her pain with infidelity by repeating the very same mistakes.Even the superficial look and feel of a "happy family" for her,could not withstand the issues she would have to deal with eventually.If you haven't guessed by now,A's are ALL about the inner workings of a WS.Yes we all contribute to the state of our marriages but I really think it's more about what is lacking/missing in a WS.Therein lies the really difficult struggle and work.It's HUGE what you are facing now.Not just the A but the very nature of who your wife IS.Not what yout THOUGHT.It's scary.We think we know these people that we marry but over time our baggage get's laid out and BAM.Especially if it's someone who has a lot of baggage to check.

What I am saying is that your WW has a lot of SELF work to do first before she can come back to the marriage and make a difference there or else it is going to be one astronomical struggle for her to try and skip over that big hurdle to get to the marriage problem.Some can work at both at the same time but I don't know about your WW.I really hope she has it within her to do so.

My WH also tries to "hide" behind the career excuse to avoid what he KNOWS needs to be done but he is transparent and I see right through his devices.WS's do use tactics to avoid further pain and addressing what she has done and all the hard work associated with the marriage and facing you is tremendous.It would be easier to say I can't do this I'm outta here.She has a lot to figure out and getting to a point where she WANTS to is half the battle.

There are no easy answers here for sure but all we as BS's can do is "work on ourselves" and follow the MB plans.You're in this for the long haul I think.That is is you're up for it.Keep us posted on how things go.

O

Your W sounds eerily similar to mine. Man this just sucks doesnt it?

Maybe I’m over thinking this. Maybe it’s a defense mechanism for me to deal with things but I’m having a thought. Could all (or most) of this be a bunch of BS from her. With the “I never loved you” thrown into things she has effectively taken all the emphasis off of her EA and PA. That was the 1 think that made her (and all wives) better than me (and all husbands). She as told me in the past that ALL men would have an A if in the right situation while she would sit on her high horse, invulnerable to infidelity.

Granted, she’s got a few issues…who doesn’t. But in her mind I know that she thinks the absolute worst thing she could do, did to was have an A. There would be NO greater guilt. She WOULD rather feel guilty about ANYTHING else including “not ever loving me”. She’s accomplished 2 things: displaced her own guilt and get me to think about something other than her A. AND it’s not her fault. Its her dad, her mom, her sister, her first love that broker her heart. She can’t cope with what she’s done.

Most WS's try to rewrite history and say that they were never happy or this or that.It is one way that they can try to justify their behavior.

But the age old question is why do some people cross that proverbial "line" while other's do not? I think most of us can agree that we have been tempted at one or more times in our lives but why do we not commit adultery? What is your WW willing to do now to help resolve these issues?

My WH is another example of how his childhood issues are coming back to haunt him.I'm not saying this is the answer or even the case for everyone but I have been doing a lot of thinking about this for the past several weeks.My WH did not receive a lot of affection fron his parents growing up nor did he live in a home where "I love you" was said very much if at all.It really seems to me that this need for affection and admiration stems from that which he lacked growing up and it is playing a big part in where we are now as a married couple and also while we were dating and all through our marriage.

Your WW can try to hide behind excuses as to why she did what she did but ultimately she will have to own up to what she did and explore why if she is ever able to understand herself better or she may just repeat the same mistakes with other relationships in her future.Counseling can help in this area and also if she is one day willing,go to counseling with you to help repair your marriage.As much as MB is helpful to all of us,I think I read that two thirds of marriages end in D after an A.80% of people who D said they regret that decision.Not very hopeful but also only 2-3% of A's lead to marriage and 75% of those end in D as well.

So,it stands to reason that it would benefit more couples to really try and make their relationships/marriages work.Like I mentioned before the hard part is getting that WS to the table.Yes we do all have our own issues but the more in depth or numerous the more difficult it may be to see a positive outcome.People that start out having A's begin looking in the wrong place for answers or their needs and then it may be just as hard for them to realize that their best chance for recovery is with a spouse who loves them and who cares for their wellbeing.

One thing I do believe is that if you are not happy within yourself,then you will be looking for others to fill that void and invariably people will fail you at some point and on different levels.That's why many of us can be married but also be very secure in our individuality,like I was.Anyway,I'm just rambling now.Good luck to you.

O

<small>[ April 13, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: craving_peace ]</small>

Ya know I struggle with one of your main questions as well. Is it an excuse or is the problem really related to something further back? In my wife's case it's well I can't talk to you becasue I was never allowed to by my father. I really do struggle with this. It's like okay I know your dad was jerk but... I do think they use it as a cop out and at some point don't you have to say we all have our issues but we have to live in the here and now?

More talking. DESPARETLY trying to find the truth. Getting a bit more about past and present.

First the past (aside of the obvious recent A). My mind has become a steel trap and I catch everything. A bit more background. Fact 1: WW has said to me in the recent past , and in “the letter”, that there is only one man, a long time ago, that ever really “did it for her”. The REAL love. The first time she mentioned it (him) was maybe a month or 2 ago. I found it odd that in 11 yrs of knowing her, she never mentioned this guy. Fact 2: on d-day, in pushing her about honesty, she said “There are just some things you don’t need to know about. No good can come of it”. Not a fact but she has also eluded to the fact that she has secrets. Also, that she wants to get to a point of “total disclosure” but that it will take time. Fact 3: Last night in talking, I brought up this “only real love” and said there had to be more to that story. She said “I’m not going to get divorced over something that’s ancient history” Fact 4: She said this guy had called her on our wedding day to tell her why he broke up with her. If this really hurt her it would explain a few things about our W-day and honeymoon. My conclusion is that something happened with this guy either early on in our M or during our engagement. Something that may have shook her to the core about our M. but, as she put it, she had “taken her vows and would live with it” (in “the letter”). Do I push her to disclose or give her time. I think she’s waiting to give me “full disclosure” until she feels comfortable that she can tell me and I won’t leave. That will make sense after reading further.

Some more recent history. In the past 3 yrs, things had gotten better. Whatever happened in the past with this early OM if that’s what he was, I really believe that we found something. We were really happy and I think in love. Certainly things needed attention that didn’t get it but we were truly enjoying our live together. Then her mom and SD came and spent a month with us last summer. I won’t go into the details but her mom said we were spending WAY to much time with our neighbor friends (don’t worry, nothing weird, just good friends). Her mom said it was dysfunctional. And my W turned on a dime. All of a sudden the happiness she (WE) had found was very wrong. The only reason I bring this up is that we were happy and in love RECENTLY. It may have taken 7 yrs for her to get there and drop her guard but I honestly believe we were there. And I think the finally trusted me totally. I would NEVER hurt her. I would NEVER leave her. This was also a turning point I believe. Something that ultimately led to the A.

Now the present. On D-day, she said “I’m terrified that your going to leave me”. Honest to God from the gut honest. I know it when I see it. It was the only thing that got me through that first weekend. Last night, while we were talking, I was telling her that I thought the “never loved” thing was a copout and that she was holding back emotionally from me. I’m giving, she’s not. I can’t deal with that. She said she was indeed holding back because she was afraid. I asked of what because she has said she knows I would NEVER hurt her. She said she knew that was true but was afraid I would leave her. Again, from the gut honest.

So here we are. I show her my love, she holds back because she’s (once again) afraid of my leaving. She doesn’t give and I pull back because I don’t think she loves me and go into a tailspin. It’s a vicious circle. I do however realize what a HUGE LB any discussions of D are!!

On the bright side of things. This AM, she woke me up with affection (not sex). She just put her arms around me and held me. I needed that more than anything else on earth. One for my bank. Made it through the morning, got the kids off to school and was talking with her about odds and ends. I knelt down next to her, look into her eyes (with happiness, not pain) and asked her if she loved me she said yes, “I do love you”. Guarded honesty but I believe it. My response to her (with every bit of my heart in my eyes) was “I will NEVER leave you”. BAM!! I couldn’t have missed it if I tried. It hit her SO hard. Huge one for her bank. Maybe we’ll figure this thing out. She needs affection and the rest but her greatest emotional need is not in the top 10. It is reassurance that I will always be here. That I will never give up on her and leave.

Moondog

Yes she needs your affection and the assurance you will never leave her.. She loves you and the guilt is overwhelming to her right now. You are doing very well.. Stay the course and it will be ok.

Peace
c_p

This is not advice because all situations are different but here's what I have just expeienced. I was just like you, I NEEDED certain things from my wife once I found out the truth or at least part of it. I was constantly asking questions and telling her my needs and she constantly let me down. I told her that to me this was her way of letting me know that she really didn't love me even though she said that she did. You know actions speak louder than words... anyway by the middle of last week I had decided that my wife didn't love me at all, perhaps she admired me and thought I was a good provider and father but that all. Our love was gone, on her side that is. Not knowing what to do about it I decided that since none and I mean NON of my needs was going to be met by her I would stop asking. I went home, told her that I was no longer going to put expectations on her because she was not in a position to meet them at this time and I would back off, not forever but for as long as I could stand it in the hopes that she would get to a point to be able to meet my needs. Further more, I told her that if she hurt me and I could not keep the hurt or anger inside I might have to leave the house from time to time to calm down, something I would never have done at any point in our marriage, I started this last Tuesday. By Thursday night she was talking to me. By Friday she was opening up some. The funny thing is she would reveal information that I had been trying to force out of her. She was doing things that I needed, she just wasn't able to communicate them to me when I was pushing her. To wrap this thing up we had the best weekend we've had in months and OM even attempted contact. I know there will be set backs but I think at least for now things are on the right track and all it took was for me to back off. Not saying it will work but on the communications side of things our wives sound similar.
What really got me to thinking about this was your comment she hugged me this a.m. and I needed that more than anything. I had been telling my wife that for a month and it only happened if I asked. I bet she hugged me a hundred times this weekend and as you said in your post you can feel it when they mean it.
Hang in there.
Always remember it's a great day to be alive!!

Moondog,

So many things to say. I will keep it relatively simple. One, you do have the necessary ingredient to make this work your love for her. It will not be enough, but it is enough to start.

Second, your W like many PhD's (but not necessarily even a majority of them) probably doesn't want to seem to fail in front of someone (IC comes to mind). They forget that the purpose of getting this degree was to do what they "don't know how to do." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You might want to point out your "observations" to her concerning her behavior after Moms visit, her lack of friends, her behavior when you two had friends, her withdrawal from you from day one, etc.

Lay them all out, and ask her if SHE can explain them, you cannot. But you suspect these behaviors indicate that she has some things to discover, work out, sort out, and they DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOU. So a Good IC might help.

Next, if she doesn't want to lose you, that does NOT mean she wants to keep you. It may mean she wants to USE you. You are a good father, you support her, you are a nice guy, and you are a good H. So she wants that for support and for HER kids. Meanwhile she wants professional awards, wild sex with someone else, and to have her major needs met without putting out any effort except in her work.

I am not say this is HOW she thinks, but it seems it might be. I beleive she needs to address this with you and a counselor. Here is my concern about IC. It is directed toward making the patient/customer happy, NOT the marriage, the kids and surely not the spouse.

I think you might want to consider MC where one addresses what will make BOTH of you happy. If you go that route I strongly recommend the Harley's, they "coach" people more than counsel them. That means there is an element of "training" coupled with education. I have always felt that this is a very good combination. If you want a feel of this I would strongly recommend you read Dr. Harley's books. THere is a new one I have not read, but is advertised here that might help. They strongly believe that "love" can be developed, built by actions. That is good news for you and your W.

Talk with your W, and see what she thinks. How does she connect the dots with her behaviors? Does she even fathom how hurt you are by the affair and the words she wrote? If so what does she want YOU to do? What is she willing to do?

Make a plan together and see if she sticks with it. Actions speak louder than words. And she needs to produce some actions.

Please think about this and read some of Harley's books to see if it might suit you two. I think it will but you guys will have to make the decision.

Finally, as someone mentioned earlier, consider her words to be part of the "fog" of the affair, and perhaps past affairs with "true love". People in affairs tend to rewrite history to justify their actions.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning has just said it very eloquently what you need to consider. I suggest that she she has insecurities that she has not expressed and the fact that she is highly educated does not mean that she does not have feelings. She does, but she may be reaching out for a father figure that she did not have. There may be emotional trauma from childhood that she is keeping silent. Have you asked her why she married you? I suggest you read what craving-peace is saying. She is giving you her help and maybe an insight into what your wife is thinking.

Again, thank you all for your insights. It’s so much to consider. So much to think about. EVERY spare moment and some that I don’t have to spare. I know I’m obsessing but this is my life with the woman I love. Posting these thoughts helps.

c_p, you nailed many things on the head. The PA is hard enough but the EA, identical to yours, has been very difficult to deal with. “even now, I’m trying to figure out how I can make this work but it cant be. Still, if you called me today, said you loved me, I’d be to weak so say no” (“the letter”). Does that sound familiar? Also, I’m guessing FOG but I’m not exactly sure about the meaning. Also, WHY cant you get your EN met by your H. On my end, it’s not for a lack of trying and it sounds the same for you. It’s an odd twist but we try desperately give, why wont you take? You went to OM, so has my W but not, to my knowledge repeatedly. Primarily she gets her EN filled through her career. When I ask her what makes her happy, it’s ALL about work. Is she really denying her real EN? Saying that she’s not human and doesn’t have emotions? (actually her choice of words paraphrased).

Mr. E, we’re to peas!! Your post beginning to end was verbatim some of my thoughts and words to her. Fill my needs…here’s what you do. Open up to me. May have to leave the house for a while. ALL of it. Your post give me hope, certainly for the short term. Long term will depend on sustaining that.

Just Learning, failure IS a HUGE issue. IC has got to be just that in her mind. “Don’t navel gaze, just do what you have to do.” I have asked her many of the questions you pose but haven’t got much from her responses to work with. Still holding back. I have pushed her very hard on “losing me” vs. “keeping me”. I’m still waiting for one of those gut honest answers. The closest I’ve gotten was the day I found “the letter” which I have referred to. When she said she was “terrified of losing me” I really believed (and still do) that it referred to her personal loss vs. the rest. That she personally and emotionally needs me and depends on me. Also, the question of IC for her does scare me but for better or worse, it might get at the truth. As far as her understanding about what she’s done to me, I believe she does but it’s deeply suppressed. I think it horrifies her that she’s done this to me. I don’t thing she can deal with it herself just yet alone face to face (heart to heart) with me. I see confronting that (with me) will be milestone. That is something I need. I need to completely break down, sob like a baby and tell her how much she’s hurt me AND to have her tell me how very sorry she is, she can’t imagine my pain but that we will get through it, that she will do everything and anything to get us there and that we will be happier that before. ALL of it GUT HONEST! But I think that’s a ways off. No pressure.