I am in a situation and cannot find a post that fits. Just discovered that my husband of 4 years met and kissed a woman he met while out of town and drinking at a bar. (there are no issues with alcohol other than stupidity while drinking). We have been struggling with infertility - both extremely stressed and sad for about a year now. He took advantage of some time away to "escape" and didn't tell the people that he met there that he was married and proceeded to flirt with and kiss another woman. We will stay together. I am capable of this, I am just wondering if there should be a difference in my mind between sleeping with someone and kissing someone. I started my relationship so strict on this topic. I used to feel that if one even thought of another person, it was infidelity of your heart. With 8 years under our belts, I realize more that we are human and that relationships aren't perfect, but I am wondering if I am overreacting and should think of this differently. Can someone provide insight?

Infidelity is infidelity. Whether it is an emotional affair, kissing, or a physical affair, it hurts the marriage. It is a good sign that he told you about this though.

Read all of the information here and you can have a better marriage than before.

Are you 100% certain that kissing was all of it? My W admitted (through much teeth-pulling) to kissing a man. That was 7 years ago. I only found out 2 months ago that she had slept with him.

7 years ago, I rationalized that I could handle it because I was lucky she didn't go any further with him. Now the truth has come out and it is a roller-coaster like I never thought possible. The worst part is that she lied to me for 7 years.

So...if you are not 100% sure (and I don't mean 99.9999%), then you had better dig deeper, because I know from experience you do not want to be where I am.

I now realize that I should have dug and dug and dug to get the truth -- counseling, exposure to family, whatever it took! Unfortunately, my acceptance of what I WANTED to believe has made this mess much worse.

Good luck!

My opinion, as the WS, is this...

When the OP begins to be more important than your H, more important than your marriage, then it's an affair. There doesn't have to be physical contact, it can be thoughts, emotions, etc...

Always remember, infidelity begins in the mind IMHO and manifests from there.

Infidelity is what it is. It can be by thinking about someone else, kissing, petting or going all the way. Anytime there are feelings of romantic love for a person other than your partner, that is infidelity. There are no shades of gray, it is either balck or white, but there are no in betweens.
Today a kiss and tomorrow?????

Hi qwertasdfzxc

Welcome to MB. Please read all there is on this site. You will find tons of help here.

About your case, well we also have some infertility problems, that among MANY things triggered the A on my H. I'm not saying that is the reason, but for sure it played a role on it, and not only that, but the way we managed that wich was... not very hummm mature to put it mildly, let us into this roller coaster. So buckle up!!

At first.. when I found out, I confronted.. and she was no one, then they were "just friends", then they had a EA and later they got a PA, so where is the line? I guess there is no line. it was A all over since the begining.

Please try to find ASAP what your H's needs are, and look also for help on a counselor on how to deal with it and the infertility problem too, cause maybe if you don't, you will keep LBing, even though you don't know you are doing that and grow further appart.

Also

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there are no issues with alcohol other than stupidity while drinking </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is there any other issue besides that? hummm that also has to be addressed, drinking is NO excuse to be stupid. If drinking made him do this kind of things being hazzardous to your M, then the bottle has to go.

Take care

Hi qwertasdfzxc,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I used to feel that if one even thought of another person, it was infidelity of your heart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">actually, I'm with you on this one...I think we are better off always thinking sexually, romantically, emotionally about our S...always...no exceptions...it is the exception that gives way to eventual A of one sort or another...some are more damaging than others, harder to "fix", harder to work through...but all are pieces of the infidelity puzzle...

perhaps an easier way to look at it is that thoughts of OP make our M vulnerable...it is NOT healthy...

a healthy M will include protection for each other, not doing things that hurt the other...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please try to find ASAP what your H's needs are, and look also for help on a counselor on how to deal with it and the infertility problem too, cause maybe if you don't, you will keep LBing, even though you don't know you are doing that and grow further appart.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">work on YOU (hard as that may seem)...we need to do the counterintuitive stuff in order to be successful...

honesty and healthy, respectful communication must be a part of rebuilding your M...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have been struggling with infertility - both extremely stressed and sad for about a year now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this issue is really hard on couples, especially as with us, if one S (I did) feels stronger than the other about the lack of kids...

can you have fun together? focus on having good times? recreational companionship is critical...sex without procreation pressure is another...

try to address the problems in your M first and foremost...any problems/crises you face (including infertility) will be easier if you do so as a team...building a team takes time, effort and patience...if you can focus yourself to look at it that way, you'll go a long way to building an A-proof M!

hope this helps...awed

I am in full agreement with awed18. The only person that one should think romantically about is the spouse. To do so about anyone else is infidelity. A marriage partner looks for the well-being and happiness of the other. How can there be love when there is betrayal?

On the one hand infidelity is infidelity. Whether, PA or Ea, each is its own betrayal of the BS and of the marriage itself. So cheating on any level is wrong and needs to be addressed and the reasons behind it dealt with. (yea pretty basic).

However in regard to your "levels" question, IMO that is best looked at in term of resentment. Meaning that the More there IS TO resent the longer and harder it is for the BS to process it, cope with it & eventually move beyond it.

Maybe some examples would help in how I look at your question.

Some would say (and everyone's list would be different) That:
1.) a strictly EA is easier to deal with than a physical one
2). a kiss (hug, touch ect.,) is easier to deal with than any type of sexual contact
3.) oral sex is easier to deal with than full intercourse
4.) a one night stand is easier to deal with than multiple sexual encounters
5.) One affair is easier to deal with than multiple affair partners
6). a one month affair is better than a 1 yr. A
7.) one yr. A better than a 5 yr A
8.) An affair that has NO other child is better than one that ends in OW pregnant
9.) an affair that has ended is BETTER than one that is still going on
................................................and so on and so on.

You get the idea. But everyone's list and rankings would be different. Some would say its better to have lots of sex with NO Emotional Tie in (ie "love") involved. Some would claim have all the "feelings" you want as long as no "skin to skin" contact was made. Each BS has their own rankings.

Guess I see it as infidelity is not good, right or healthy in any of its many forms. I see the "levels" of infidelity coming into play when the BS is trying to deal with it. Its just human nature to first compare and then rationalize what is going on in our lives and thereby make our selves feel better about our own situation through that comparission. ("Well my situation is bad, but just look at Jack/Jane!")

IF telling ourselves that our WS didn't hurt us as bad as someone elses did, I suppose that has its place in the healing process. Even though the sad sad fact is that no matter how we were betrayed or on what "level" we place its value at, it is still the most devastating and hurtful event we could ever imagine. Does it help to think "it could have been worse" by comparing levels with others. Probably on some level it does.

Any way, please Stay here and keep reading and learning. IT really can help, even if it doesn't seem that way right now. Take care

Hello qwertasdfzxc,

First let me say I am sorry that you are going through BOTH infertility and husband's "kissing another woman".

I happen to agree with many of the people who have posted to you, before me - a kiss IS NOT just a kiss - it is infidelity. It was a breaking of your marriage vows/covenant (to love, honor, cherish, etc.)

Because our stories are similar, I wanted to share mine with you. Please remember this is only so you will know "someone else has been through what you have". This is not to say that your husband has allowed things to go any further than a kiss. I hope & pray they have not.

My husband & I have struggled with infertility also. When I was pregnant with our 1 & only child (14 years ago), my husband decided to allow himself to be picked up by another person and (in his words) "did everything but have actual intercourse". He didn't tell me about this FULLY until therapy several months ago. When our child was 6 or 7, he told me that he had allowed himself to be "picked up" by this person and that they had just kissed. I believed him & forgave him. But for the next several days I struggled with feelings of betrayal & feeling like things just weren't right. Days later, when I pressed him with some questions about the encounter, he became angry & basically said I had apparently not "forgiven" him OR I wouldn't be asking him so many questions. He later confessed there had been some touching too, but nothing else. NOT UNTIL 7+ years later (recently in therapy) do I find out that my husband did everything with this other person - short of having actual sexual intercourse. (Which I pray is the TRUTH & FINAL WORD ON THE WHOLE ORDEAL!)

My point is this, if you are uncomfortable in any way with what your Husband is telling you, press him for the whole truth. If you are satisfied that it is the truth or if you don't want to press him for the truth - then I would suggest turning it over to God and praying that the WHOLE truth of the matter would be known & revealed.

PLEASE KNOW that what your husband did was HIS CHOICE. He needs to take responsibility for his actions. Not everyone who struggles with infertility has to kiss someone else, or have an affair. So to say that this was his reason, or that drinking was his reason, is a copout. He needs to OWN what he did, make it right with you and take steps to keep it from ever happening again.

I pray God will strengthen & encourage you during this tough time.

Sincerely,
want2Bloved

Dear Qwert,

I probably have a little different opinion here. My H had a grand total of 9 affairs. When he confessed to 8 of them at one time, he included one that was just kissing. I believe that he included it because of his INTENT, because if she had been willing to go further than kissing, he would have done it.

She was part of a string of ONSs he had back in early 2000. They talked a lot after the class he was teaching (yes, while traveling) and he gave her some good advice. She asked if she could call his hotel room from hers and he said okay. Then after talking for an hour on the phone she asked if she could just come over to his room. They talked some more on a couch in the room and then ended up kissing. She then said that she'd better go...so she interupted what I'm sure would have turned into a full blown sexual encounter.

Do I feel the same way about her compared to the others that DID have sex? No, I do not. Was it still a betrayal? Yes, it was because my H would have had sex with her and because he shouldn't be kissing anyone else, obviously. Also because he didn't tell me.

I'm impressed that your H told you. That says a lot about his character. It says that he feels genuinely bad that it happened. I think that your biggest worry is knowing whether or not it stopped at kissing. Did they make it to either of their hotel rooms? Was the kissing done in public...like the bar? Did they go to the room afterwards (where he swears nothing happened, of course)?

If it really was kissing and it really was just the one time and there really was no emotional connection then FOR ME...it would be easier to get over than a full blown affair. It would be more like a wakeup call. I would be making a list of ways to avoid the situation in the future. No drinking while traveling without you, no talking to just women/a woman, no talking about anything regarding personal info to a woman, no hanging out in the bar on a trip, etc. You get the general idea. With some safeguards in place, things really should be okay, especially if he confessed willingly the first time.

I'm sorry you are hurting. God knows that I know it hurts. You hang in there!

Stillwed

P.S. As another poster said, he needs to take full responsibility for this and just apologize without excuses.

Have you thought of having him take a polygraph to be sure that he isn't lying about how far it went?

On levels of infidelity.

In my opinion, infidelity needs to include the act of sex, including heavy-petting, oral... etc. Viewed from this angle, there are no levels. You did, or you didn't.

However... there ARE levels of stupidity induced acts of thoughtlessness. Getting hammered on booze and playing kissy-face with someone other than your spouse ranks pretty high on the stupid scale, and is worth requiring rebuilding of trust. But... in the end, it still boils down more to someone acting like an idiot than "committing" infidelity. JMHO...

Mort.